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NASA

Is NASA Actually Working On a Warp Drive? (popularmechanics.com) 121

"Is NASA really working on... a warp drive?" asks Popular Mechanics?

Long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 shares their report: An internal feasibility report suggests the agency might be, or at least that the idea of traveling through folded space is part of the NASA interstellar spaceflight menu. In the report, advanced propulsion physicist Harold "Sonny" White explains the ideas of theoretical physicist (and peer) Miguel Alcubierre. He then describes a "paradox" in Alcubierre's work, and how that paradox might be resolved to make a working model...

The colloquial term "warp drive" has come from science fiction, and it refers to the idea of sub-luminal (less than the speed of light) travel that conforms to Einstein's theory of general relativity, but still pushes speed to absolute maximum that's theoretically possible... In real life, light speed is the barrier... Alcubierre's theory dates to 1994, and physicists have used it as a jumping-off point for further discussion ever since. By creating a kind of pocket world where a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics [and using a huge amount of energy], the laws of physics can be sidestepped — or so the theory goes...

The NASA paper suggests a rolling start in order to guarantee a travel direction... He suggests the proving ground for warp speed could be, well, closer to home. "[T]he idea of a warp drive may have some fruitful domestic applications 'subliminally,' allowing it to be matured before it is engaged as a true interstellar drive system," he explains.

If scientists can make the so-called "negative mass" required for an Alcubierre drive, even a tiny example could be deployed within Earth's atmosphere.

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Is NASA Actually Working On a Warp Drive?

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  • by dmay34 ( 6770232 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @05:40PM (#60068370)
    Look, I have no doubt that NASA has its hands in all kinds of skunkworks projects. And theoretical engines are highly likely to be in the mix. But I don't think it's getting a sizeable portion of the budget.
  • Wasn't there something in one of the Star Trek movies about creating a warp field near a gravitational body? I know in First Contact they used the Moon's gravity well to mask their departure, but that's not what I'm referring to.

    Also, why wouldn't this be done in space rather then planetside? Wouldn't it make more sense to point this away from Earth in case something happens?

    • by fermion ( 181285 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @06:17PM (#60068450) Homepage Journal
      Yes, and don't cross the streams. Warp drive as a plot device can have rules that promote dramatic effect. Not entering the atmosphere allows the writer to create tension when we need to enter the atmosphere. The physics likely is that that is really inefficient to build a machine that can operate normally at high pressure and in a vacuum. Which is why in fictional world we build so much in space. It is not just to save mass lifted our of the gravity well, it is because we are designing and building for vacuum.
    • by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      Wouldn't it make more sense to point this away from Earth in case something happens?

      Test in Arizona, they let everybody test shit there. It's probably why they have the famous crater there. [wikipedia.org]

    • Because there's nothing to be done.
      Alcubierre drives require negative energy.
      I.e., negative mass density in a region of space.
      Casimir effects gives us a little bit of that at atomic scales... now scale it to the the required negative energy of a negative-energy-manhattan-island worth of mass, and that's why this isn't happening.
      I am in no way surprised they have guys playing with the idea... but it's not going to happen, that's why it's not being tried in space.
      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        I don't know. That might be enough negative energy to stabilize a wormhole mouth...large enough to pass a several photons in sequence. Which might be possible to turn into a time machine for sending messages. Not quite a warp drive, of course.

    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      In Star Trek IIRC, it was more of a navigation problem than a limitatiion of physics. However, in Known Space, activating the hyperdrive in a gravity well was "bad".

    • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      The warp is not quite the right word. What you are trying to do is create a pocket of quantum particle space (think infinitely small and infinitely fast particles relative to normal space ie a photon is not a particle it is a cluster of quantum photonic particles and the elements of an atom are simply made of stickier quantum particles), seperate from the rest of quantum space, the thinist possible barrier between the two (the thicker the more energy) so you no longer travel through quantum space because yo

      • get it ever so slightly wrong and you ram right into it or get deflected around it due to mass displacement whilst in you reduced inertia bubble

        "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!
        Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce
        too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

    • There was a Next Gen episode where they extended the Enterprise warp field to enclose an asteroid that was endangering a populated planet that couldn't evacuate in time. By doing so they effectively reduced the asteroids' mass so, after latching onto it with a tractor beam, they could change it's trajectory so it wasn't going to impact the planet anymore.
  • by SuricouRaven ( 1897204 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @06:14PM (#60068446)

    All we need to do is is generate a completely new type of matter that has never been observed to exist, which is only hypothesized to be possible based on mathematical models that provide no suggestion as to how such particles may be formed. How hard can it be? Oh, and it also needs to be turned into a stable form which is practical to handle, something we can't even do when manufacturing plain vanilla positive mass.

    • by sgage ( 109086 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @06:19PM (#60068462)

      Two words: dilithium crystals. ;-)

    • Also they think it will take large amounts of energy, like K2 Civilization levels of energy.
    • by guygo ( 894298 )

      Indeed. Thank you.

    • We know what we need. It's just an engineering problem now, right?
    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      That is one practical solution. The math, from the Lorentz contraction factor (1-v^2/c^2) falls to zero when our velocity equals the speed of light. This means that the physical variables end up being zero or infinity. The factor includes a square root so for speed faster than the speed of light results in an imaginary solution. Now, this is not bad because when one solves circuits one gets perfect valid imaginary solutions, as well in wave mechanics. It is just a matter of interpreting the solution.
      • by SuricouRaven ( 1897204 ) on Sunday May 17, 2020 @03:44AM (#60069576)

        Even antimatter has positive mass. Negative mass is something far more exotic even than that.

        Antimatter is easy by comparison. It's even possible to manufacture anti-matter atoms now. So long as you only want hydrogen. In minuscule quantities. It may be the most valuable substance in the world by mass - the only one where you can put a price-tag on individual atoms.

    • by PJ6 ( 1151747 )

      All we need to do is is generate a completely new type of matter that has never been observed to exist, which is only hypothesized to be possible based on mathematical models that provide no suggestion as to how such particles may be formed. How hard can it be? Oh, and it also needs to be turned into a stable form which is practical to handle, something we can't even do when manufacturing plain vanilla positive mass.

      They didn't say negative matter, they said negative mass. Matter is a very concentrated form of energy, and mass and energy are equivalent. Negative matter? Probably not possible. But negative energy? Maybe.

      You also out of nowhere assume that for it to be used, negative mass has to be "handled" and stable. If it's possible to create at all, it's overwhelmingly likely that it will be achieved as a fleeting, non-equilibrium phenomenon, something akin to a quasi-particle - not technically there, but in some

      • Does that make it any easier? You're not going to get away with the Casimir effect for this. Even if this drive is possible in principle, there's no point researching it yet - we don't know how to make the tools to even begin experimenting. There is too much theoretical work to undergo before considering practical applications.

        • by PJ6 ( 1151747 )

          Does that make it any easier? You're not going to get away with the Casimir effect for this.

          Certainly. Energy isn't quite the physical thing matter is, it makes a world of difference. There are plenty of ways to try to engineer a negative energy effect at a tiny scale. Measure it, develop new ideas to make it bigger, or more efficient to produce. Baby steps.

          Even if this drive is possible in principle, there's no point researching it yet - we don't know how to make the tools to even begin experimenting. There is too much theoretical work to undergo before considering practical applications.

          I disagree - much of the theory is already there. And coming from both sides of R&D (though not in physics) I can tell you that the technical creative process is not linear, but rather one side informs the other in a back and forth that's h

  • by Anonymous Coward

    "If scientists can make the so-called "negative mass" required for an Alcubierre drive, even a tiny example could be deployed within Earth's atmosphere."

    If I can conjure up just one genie to grant me wishes, I can wish for an infinite number of wishes and do anything!

  • by klossner ( 733867 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @06:24PM (#60068470)
    "Warp drive" has always referred to superliminal, not subliminal travel. Kids these days.
    • by sgage ( 109086 )

      And they got the name wrong - it's not Alcubierre. Zefram Cochrane invented the Warp Drive in 2063. Look it up!

    • by Phics ( 934282 )

      You mean super-"luminal", (referring to the speed of light rather than sensory thresholds), although maybe NASA should explore the idea of subliminal travel, perhaps with the aid of hallucinogens.

      • â...although maybe NASA should explore the idea of subliminal travel

        Isn't that the plot of A Wrinkle in Time?

        • It occurs to me that we have already achieved warp speed and subliminal travel. At least in the field of conciousness and human imagination. This imagining has already had an affect on human society even though we have not actually done it in the real world. Star Trek and Cyberspace now pervade human culture almost as if they were real. Science is dependent on having a language to describe it as is clearly demonstrated by the use of mathematics to model and predict real world objects. So even the proress of

    • I think you mean SuperLuminal (above light=FTL), not superliminal (the game). Also warp drive refers to dimensional shortcuts to give the equivelent of faster than light travel, without actually travelling faster than light.
    • Yep, I was going to post the same thing.

      "The colloquial term "warp drive" has come from science fiction, and it refers to the idea of sub-luminal (less than the speed of light) travel that conforms to Einstein's theory of general relativity"

      No, "warp drive" and "warp speed" in science fiction (specifically Star Trek) mean speeds above the speed of light... typically many times as fast, with the theoretical maximum being under warp 10 (infinite speed). Without such speeds, interstellar travel is totally imp

      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        Warp drive long predated Star Trek, but yes, it always meant something that was effectively FTL.

        • Out of curiosity, did Star Trek come up with the term "warp drive"? I know the concept is much older, I'm wondering about terminology. I tried to look this up, and I see that it was "popularized" by ST, but I can't find the actual word origin.

          • by HiThere ( 15173 )

            Well, back as far as the 1930's SF writers made FTL drives by bending space, effectively the same as warping it, though I can't remember any instances where that term was used. I think Clarke may have used it in "Superiority", but I no longer have a copy to check.

  • Without the inertial dampeners, you're just going to end up as a one-molecule-thick stain on the forward bulkhead when you try to stop.
    • by currently_awake ( 1248758 ) on Saturday May 16, 2020 @06:56PM (#60068532)
      Most forms of postulated warp drive involve bending space around you, not moving through it. So there should be no change in velocity meaning no change in inertia. Meaning no inertial dampeners required.
      • by sgage ( 109086 )

        This. I was talking to a couple of Guild Navigators the other day, and that's just how they explained it.

        • I've never been able to actually understand the navigators myself, unless I was also under the influence of the spice; and the downside of that was, no matter how clever the idea was that occurred to me, I could never remember it when I sobered.
          • It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

            • It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

              “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

              My personal favorite.

              • by aitikin ( 909209 )

                “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

                My personal favorite.

                If you use either the movie or the mini-series pacing of this, it times out to approximately 20 seconds, so works great as a handwashing litany as well.

  • "a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics". That's the problem... you have to go "outside" of Eisensteinian physics to get any of this to work out, but we seem to be firmly stuck in an Eisensteinian universe. Call me when they can shoehorn their postulates into the universe we currently observe ourselves to be in, not some unobserved Star Trek/Star Wars universe.
    • Actually you don't.
      The bitch here is the standard model, not Einsteinian physics.
      The Einstein field equations perfectly support the model... The problem is we're having a bit of difficulty finding concentrated amounts of negative mass.
  • No they aren't. Harold "Sonny" White is the same guy who built a really inefficient electric motor out of a microwave cavity and a metal pressure vessel, slapped the words "quantum vacuum" on it, and gave every CS major who hated physics and calculus but loved star trek a killer boner.
    • ... , and gave every CS major who hated physics and calculus but loved star trek a killer boner.

      Is that why I've always noticed a rather conservative upper limit to the IQ's of Trekkies? (I've always said I'm willing to call 'em "Trekkers" but they'd have to get laid first).

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • By creating a kind of pocket world where a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics [and using a huge amount of energy], the laws of physics can be sidestepped — or so the theory goes

    This is the worst description of an Alcubierre Drive [wikipedia.org]. It does not create a pocket where a spaceship operates outside of physics, even seemingly. Not even by the standards of the same theory positing the light-speed limit.

  • In the atmosphere? Of this planet? Dude, I'm formally trained in science and engineering. I cut my teeth reading lots of science fiction. I am *ALL* *IN* on thinking outside the box and taking risks to advance humanity. I have no problem at all with the supercollider experiments. All of that "we might create a black hole" worry is overblown because way more energetic stuff happens in our atmosphere every millisecond. No real risk there.

    On the other hand.... negative-mass and warp drive research? That
  • Who knows, maybe the Vulcans can get us out of this mess.
  • No, it's not possible, stop wanking off dreaming about things that you know aren't feasible and are a waste of time.
    Nerds who entertain the thought of warp drives in the real world are akin to pentecostal christians who ignore all the dinosaur fossils and believe the world is 13,000 years old because they find it more comforting.
    Part of being a scientist and/or a critical thinker is resisting the urge to think about things that please you, and not switching off when the facts make you uncomfortable.

  • "[T]he idea of a warp drive may have some fruitful domestic applications 'subliminally,' allowing it to be matured before it is engaged as a true interstellar drive system," he explains.

    Really? It may have applications that subtlety targets people's subconscious thereby allowing interstellar travel? Far out man. Shame on you, long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 [slashdot.org] for not catching that. :) Also, shame on you Caroline Delbert (writer, book editor, researcher, and avid reader) and publisher of the article [popularmechanics.com] for Popular Mechanics, for not catching that. :) Also, shame most goes to you, Dr. Harold “Sonny” White of NASA Johnson Space Center, publisher of "Warp Field Mechanics 101" whe

    • by chrae ( 159904 ) on Sunday May 17, 2020 @01:30AM (#60069336) Homepage

      So, I've just heard back from the Grammar Tribunal and they've reached the following verdicts:

      schit1: Guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. The judges noted in their sentencing speech that the post was only 4 paragraphs long and that it was referred to correctly in the second paragraph therefore precluding ignorance as a defense. The sentence is 20 hours of grammar reeducation.

      Caroline Delbert: Not guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. The judges reached their verdict noting that the defendant writes for Popular Mechanics and ignorance is a pretty good defense.

      Dr. Harold "Sonny" White: Guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. Judges notes were that the 'u' 'i' substitution is the difference between your right index and middle fingers. To make such a typo is an indication of an unacceptable level of sloppiness for a professional working for NASA. To miss it after proof reading is careless. There is also the implication that it was not a typo, which raises the possibility he thinks it was right.

      The Grammar Tribunal have also launched a broader investigation into this words misuse. Google and the Mozilla Foundation have been issued subpoenas after the initial investigation has discovered that Google's default messaging app for it's Android platform automatically substitutes, without warning, the word "subluminal" with "subliminal" while the Mozilla Foundation's product Firefox underlines "subluminal" as incorrect and provides "subliminal" as the top spelling suggestion.

    • Well, technically, Mind, not Space, is THE final frontier. :-)

      Scientists are still generally clueless that consciousness is independent of a physical body. Everyone eventually learns the hard way after the fact. :-/

      --
      The Placebo Effect is one of the proofs of mind over matter. By all accounts it shouldn't even exist in the first place.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Obviously, in the Star Trek universe, warp drives don't involve time dilation. Is that the same for this theoretical Alcubierre model?
  • Betteridge's law of headlines, also known as "Slashdot's law of editor-posted weekend stories."

    Slashdot editors who do this every weekend, it's tiring:
    If nobody submitted anything to post, please don't post stuff just to post stuff.
    Thanks for the May 12th article that is delightfully lacking in science or makes any sense, but it does have fluff.

    Go read the original paper at https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/... [nasa.gov]
    It's good enough to print and then use to wipe your ass.

    E

  • What a shame. Too bad science fiction is fiction.
  • Super duper!

  • While it is the shortest distance between 2 points, the largest drawback is that the 'pocket world' is literally Hell.

    From: https://youtu.be/n6lDG-bP3zg [youtu.be]

  • For starters, White left NASA to grift elsewhere. Secondly, while it has taken a special place in the pop-science (and pseudo-science) culture, the Alcubierre drive was never intended to be taken literally. It was part of a 'if we had this mathematically interesting but impossible thing, what would be the consequences?' thought experiment. Kinda like 'what are all the cool things you could do with portals', fun to play with, but you still don't actually have portals.

The 11 is for people with the pride of a 10 and the pocketbook of an 8. -- R.B. Greenberg [referring to PDPs?]

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