Is NASA Actually Working On a Warp Drive? (popularmechanics.com) 121
"Is NASA really working on... a warp drive?" asks Popular Mechanics?
Long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 shares their report: An internal feasibility report suggests the agency might be, or at least that the idea of traveling through folded space is part of the NASA interstellar spaceflight menu. In the report, advanced propulsion physicist Harold "Sonny" White explains the ideas of theoretical physicist (and peer) Miguel Alcubierre. He then describes a "paradox" in Alcubierre's work, and how that paradox might be resolved to make a working model...
The colloquial term "warp drive" has come from science fiction, and it refers to the idea of sub-luminal (less than the speed of light) travel that conforms to Einstein's theory of general relativity, but still pushes speed to absolute maximum that's theoretically possible... In real life, light speed is the barrier... Alcubierre's theory dates to 1994, and physicists have used it as a jumping-off point for further discussion ever since. By creating a kind of pocket world where a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics [and using a huge amount of energy], the laws of physics can be sidestepped — or so the theory goes...
The NASA paper suggests a rolling start in order to guarantee a travel direction... He suggests the proving ground for warp speed could be, well, closer to home. "[T]he idea of a warp drive may have some fruitful domestic applications 'subliminally,' allowing it to be matured before it is engaged as a true interstellar drive system," he explains.
If scientists can make the so-called "negative mass" required for an Alcubierre drive, even a tiny example could be deployed within Earth's atmosphere.
Long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 shares their report: An internal feasibility report suggests the agency might be, or at least that the idea of traveling through folded space is part of the NASA interstellar spaceflight menu. In the report, advanced propulsion physicist Harold "Sonny" White explains the ideas of theoretical physicist (and peer) Miguel Alcubierre. He then describes a "paradox" in Alcubierre's work, and how that paradox might be resolved to make a working model...
The colloquial term "warp drive" has come from science fiction, and it refers to the idea of sub-luminal (less than the speed of light) travel that conforms to Einstein's theory of general relativity, but still pushes speed to absolute maximum that's theoretically possible... In real life, light speed is the barrier... Alcubierre's theory dates to 1994, and physicists have used it as a jumping-off point for further discussion ever since. By creating a kind of pocket world where a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics [and using a huge amount of energy], the laws of physics can be sidestepped — or so the theory goes...
The NASA paper suggests a rolling start in order to guarantee a travel direction... He suggests the proving ground for warp speed could be, well, closer to home. "[T]he idea of a warp drive may have some fruitful domestic applications 'subliminally,' allowing it to be matured before it is engaged as a true interstellar drive system," he explains.
If scientists can make the so-called "negative mass" required for an Alcubierre drive, even a tiny example could be deployed within Earth's atmosphere.
If the headline is a question (Score:3, Insightful)
Inside the atmosphere? (Score:2)
Wasn't there something in one of the Star Trek movies about creating a warp field near a gravitational body? I know in First Contact they used the Moon's gravity well to mask their departure, but that's not what I'm referring to.
Also, why wouldn't this be done in space rather then planetside? Wouldn't it make more sense to point this away from Earth in case something happens?
Re:Inside the atmosphere? (Score:4, Informative)
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Test in Arizona, they let everybody test shit there. It's probably why they have the famous crater there. [wikipedia.org]
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Alcubierre drives require negative energy.
I.e., negative mass density in a region of space.
Casimir effects gives us a little bit of that at atomic scales... now scale it to the the required negative energy of a negative-energy-manhattan-island worth of mass, and that's why this isn't happening.
I am in no way surprised they have guys playing with the idea... but it's not going to happen, that's why it's not being tried in space.
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I don't know. That might be enough negative energy to stabilize a wormhole mouth...large enough to pass a several photons in sequence. Which might be possible to turn into a time machine for sending messages. Not quite a warp drive, of course.
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In Star Trek IIRC, it was more of a navigation problem than a limitatiion of physics. However, in Known Space, activating the hyperdrive in a gravity well was "bad".
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The warp is not quite the right word. What you are trying to do is create a pocket of quantum particle space (think infinitely small and infinitely fast particles relative to normal space ie a photon is not a particle it is a cluster of quantum photonic particles and the elements of an atom are simply made of stickier quantum particles), seperate from the rest of quantum space, the thinist possible barrier between the two (the thicker the more energy) so you no longer travel through quantum space because yo
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get it ever so slightly wrong and you ram right into it or get deflected around it due to mass displacement whilst in you reduced inertia bubble
"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce
too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
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Re: Inside the atmosphere? (Score:1)
The prime directive be damned!
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So just make negative mass. (Score:5, Funny)
All we need to do is is generate a completely new type of matter that has never been observed to exist, which is only hypothesized to be possible based on mathematical models that provide no suggestion as to how such particles may be formed. How hard can it be? Oh, and it also needs to be turned into a stable form which is practical to handle, something we can't even do when manufacturing plain vanilla positive mass.
Re:So just make negative mass. (Score:5, Funny)
Two words: dilithium crystals. ;-)
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Two words: dilithium crystals. ;-)
New CBS All Access Star Trek series with Walter White as a Starfleet Captain.
[Spoiler: His ship is powered by Dilithium Crystal Meth.]
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Indeed. Thank you.
Re: So just make negative mass. (Score:2)
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Re:So just make negative mass. (Score:4, Informative)
Even antimatter has positive mass. Negative mass is something far more exotic even than that.
Antimatter is easy by comparison. It's even possible to manufacture anti-matter atoms now. So long as you only want hydrogen. In minuscule quantities. It may be the most valuable substance in the world by mass - the only one where you can put a price-tag on individual atoms.
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All we need to do is is generate a completely new type of matter that has never been observed to exist, which is only hypothesized to be possible based on mathematical models that provide no suggestion as to how such particles may be formed. How hard can it be? Oh, and it also needs to be turned into a stable form which is practical to handle, something we can't even do when manufacturing plain vanilla positive mass.
They didn't say negative matter, they said negative mass. Matter is a very concentrated form of energy, and mass and energy are equivalent. Negative matter? Probably not possible. But negative energy? Maybe.
You also out of nowhere assume that for it to be used, negative mass has to be "handled" and stable. If it's possible to create at all, it's overwhelmingly likely that it will be achieved as a fleeting, non-equilibrium phenomenon, something akin to a quasi-particle - not technically there, but in some
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Does that make it any easier? You're not going to get away with the Casimir effect for this. Even if this drive is possible in principle, there's no point researching it yet - we don't know how to make the tools to even begin experimenting. There is too much theoretical work to undergo before considering practical applications.
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Does that make it any easier? You're not going to get away with the Casimir effect for this.
Certainly. Energy isn't quite the physical thing matter is, it makes a world of difference. There are plenty of ways to try to engineer a negative energy effect at a tiny scale. Measure it, develop new ideas to make it bigger, or more efficient to produce. Baby steps.
Even if this drive is possible in principle, there's no point researching it yet - we don't know how to make the tools to even begin experimenting. There is too much theoretical work to undergo before considering practical applications.
I disagree - much of the theory is already there. And coming from both sides of R&D (though not in physics) I can tell you that the technical creative process is not linear, but rather one side informs the other in a back and forth that's h
Negative mass doesn't exist (Score:2)
"If scientists can make the so-called "negative mass" required for an Alcubierre drive, even a tiny example could be deployed within Earth's atmosphere."
If I can conjure up just one genie to grant me wishes, I can wish for an infinite number of wishes and do anything!
Re: Negative mass doesn't exist (Score:2)
You won!
Re: Negative mass doesn't exist (Score:2)
Now I'm gunna go check out antique stores for lamps.
Re:Negative mass doesn't exist (Score:4, Insightful)
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As if he couldn't twist that one.
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Wish 1: $1. Wish 2: $1. Wish 3: $1.
Jin: Why did you waste all your wishes for just $3?
You: Because I knew you would not expect it, and if I asked for any meaningful amount there would be some horrible outcome associated with it.
Jin: That's too bad. See this note? (hands him paper). It's a memo from Jin Central Headquarters, telling us that we need to build some positive PR and that we should not twist the wishes this week.
*faster* than light (Score:3)
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And they got the name wrong - it's not Alcubierre. Zefram Cochrane invented the Warp Drive in 2063. Look it up!
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You mean super-"luminal", (referring to the speed of light rather than sensory thresholds), although maybe NASA should explore the idea of subliminal travel, perhaps with the aid of hallucinogens.
Re: *faster* than light (Score:1)
â...although maybe NASA should explore the idea of subliminal travel
Isn't that the plot of A Wrinkle in Time?
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It occurs to me that we have already achieved warp speed and subliminal travel. At least in the field of conciousness and human imagination. This imagining has already had an affect on human society even though we have not actually done it in the real world. Star Trek and Cyberspace now pervade human culture almost as if they were real. Science is dependent on having a language to describe it as is clearly demonstrated by the use of mathematics to model and predict real world objects. So even the proress of
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Yep, I was going to post the same thing.
"The colloquial term "warp drive" has come from science fiction, and it refers to the idea of sub-luminal (less than the speed of light) travel that conforms to Einstein's theory of general relativity"
No, "warp drive" and "warp speed" in science fiction (specifically Star Trek) mean speeds above the speed of light... typically many times as fast, with the theoretical maximum being under warp 10 (infinite speed). Without such speeds, interstellar travel is totally imp
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Warp drive long predated Star Trek, but yes, it always meant something that was effectively FTL.
Re: *faster* than light (Score:2)
Out of curiosity, did Star Trek come up with the term "warp drive"? I know the concept is much older, I'm wondering about terminology. I tried to look this up, and I see that it was "popularized" by ST, but I can't find the actual word origin.
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Well, back as far as the 1930's SF writers made FTL drives by bending space, effectively the same as warping it, though I can't remember any instances where that term was used. I think Clarke may have used it in "Superiority", but I no longer have a copy to check.
Warp drive isn't even the tricky bit... (Score:1)
Re:Warp drive isn't even the tricky bit... (Score:4, Informative)
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This. I was talking to a couple of Guild Navigators the other day, and that's just how they explained it.
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It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
My personal favorite.
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“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
My personal favorite.
If you use either the movie or the mini-series pacing of this, it times out to approximately 20 seconds, so works great as a handwashing litany as well.
missing the point (Score:2)
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The bitch here is the standard model, not Einsteinian physics.
The Einstein field equations perfectly support the model... The problem is we're having a bit of difficulty finding concentrated amounts of negative mass.
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Are you yourself suffering from insecurity about yours? You can get counseling for that now, you know.
Coming out isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.
Oh jeez (Score:2)
Re: Oh jeez (Score:1)
... , and gave every CS major who hated physics and calculus but loved star trek a killer boner.
Is that why I've always noticed a rather conservative upper limit to the IQ's of Trekkies? (I've always said I'm willing to call 'em "Trekkers" but they'd have to get laid first).
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Re: Estimated time to arrival (Score:1)
...wouldn't have no impact
Q) Why do they like Thanksgiving so much in Arkansas?
A) They can pumpkin.
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No, the Alcubierre drive (if it could be built) does indeed get a ship to destination at faster than light speed. A bubble of space time with ship inside it is what's moving FTL. The ship itself inside the bubble doesn't move faster than local speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The worst description... (Score:1)
By creating a kind of pocket world where a spaceship can operate seemingly outside of physics [and using a huge amount of energy], the laws of physics can be sidestepped — or so the theory goes
This is the worst description of an Alcubierre Drive [wikipedia.org]. It does not create a pocket where a spaceship operates outside of physics, even seemingly. Not even by the standards of the same theory positing the light-speed limit.
locally? (Score:2)
On the other hand.... negative-mass and warp drive research? That
as good an idea as any (Score:2)
.. and solar freakin' roadways!!!! (Score:1)
No, it's not possible, stop wanking off dreaming about things that you know aren't feasible and are a waste of time.
Nerds who entertain the thought of warp drives in the real world are akin to pentecostal christians who ignore all the dinosaur fossils and believe the world is 13,000 years old because they find it more comforting.
Part of being a scientist and/or a critical thinker is resisting the urge to think about things that please you, and not switching off when the facts make you uncomfortable.
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How dare you have imagination! Everything that can be discovered has already been discovered! Now get back to work making better boner pills and making my gasoline cheaper!
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Hi Charles H. Duell, you still hanging around?
I came here because of the grammar infraction... (Score:2)
"[T]he idea of a warp drive may have some fruitful domestic applications 'subliminally,' allowing it to be matured before it is engaged as a true interstellar drive system," he explains.
Really? It may have applications that subtlety targets people's subconscious thereby allowing interstellar travel? Far out man. Shame on you, long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 [slashdot.org] for not catching that. :) Also, shame on you Caroline Delbert (writer, book editor, researcher, and avid reader) and publisher of the article [popularmechanics.com] for Popular Mechanics, for not catching that. :) Also, shame most goes to you, Dr. Harold “Sonny” White of NASA Johnson Space Center, publisher of "Warp Field Mechanics 101" whe
Re:I came here because of the grammar infraction.. (Score:5, Funny)
So, I've just heard back from the Grammar Tribunal and they've reached the following verdicts:
schit1: Guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. The judges noted in their sentencing speech that the post was only 4 paragraphs long and that it was referred to correctly in the second paragraph therefore precluding ignorance as a defense. The sentence is 20 hours of grammar reeducation.
Caroline Delbert: Not guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. The judges reached their verdict noting that the defendant writes for Popular Mechanics and ignorance is a pretty good defense.
Dr. Harold "Sonny" White: Guilty of negligent grammar in the first degree. Judges notes were that the 'u' 'i' substitution is the difference between your right index and middle fingers. To make such a typo is an indication of an unacceptable level of sloppiness for a professional working for NASA. To miss it after proof reading is careless. There is also the implication that it was not a typo, which raises the possibility he thinks it was right.
The Grammar Tribunal have also launched a broader investigation into this words misuse. Google and the Mozilla Foundation have been issued subpoenas after the initial investigation has discovered that Google's default messaging app for it's Android platform automatically substitutes, without warning, the word "subluminal" with "subliminal" while the Mozilla Foundation's product Firefox underlines "subluminal" as incorrect and provides "subliminal" as the top spelling suggestion.
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Well, technically, Mind, not Space, is THE final frontier. :-)
Scientists are still generally clueless that consciousness is independent of a physical body. Everyone eventually learns the hard way after the fact. :-/
--
The Placebo Effect is one of the proofs of mind over matter. By all accounts it shouldn't even exist in the first place.
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Time dilation (Score:2)
Betteridge's law of headlines (Score:1)
Betteridge's law of headlines, also known as "Slashdot's law of editor-posted weekend stories."
Slashdot editors who do this every weekend, it's tiring:
If nobody submitted anything to post, please don't post stuff just to post stuff.
Thanks for the May 12th article that is delightfully lacking in science or makes any sense, but it does have fluff.
Go read the original paper at https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/... [nasa.gov]
It's good enough to print and then use to wipe your ass.
E
SF is SF (Score:1)
That would be (Score:2)
Super duper!
The biggest drawback in traversing this "pocket" (Score:2)
While it is the shortest distance between 2 points, the largest drawback is that the 'pocket world' is literally Hell.
From: https://youtu.be/n6lDG-bP3zg [youtu.be]
No and No. (Score:2)
Re:Not again (Score:5, Insightful)
The world has spent billions to smash atoms together in the hopes of confirming and/or discovering new physics.
We can afford a few hundred thousand to pay a couple of guys to think outside the box and dream.
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The Alcubierre drive is a fascinatin solution to general relativity equations, but its it not even close to practical. It relies on negative energy density - which probably can't exit (though the Casimir effect is tantalizing, but only for extremely tiny energy densities, and I expect not scalable). Most of the designs don't just require negative energy density, but vast amounts of it to make a macroscopic form
Nothing wrong with it as a theoretical physics study but it is fantastically far from practical.
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The Alcubierre drive is a fascinatin solution to general relativity equations, but its it not even close to practical. It relies on negative energy density - which probably can't exit (though the Casimir effect is tantalizing, but only for extremely tiny energy densities, and I expect not scalable).
While the Casimir effect requires nanoscale structures, would it be possible to use something like this for superliminal communication at nanoscales? There are already issues with high speed processors and signals taking significant time to cross the IC.
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My guess is no. The Casimer effect is when you put 2 conducting plates close together, they eliminate some modes of what is called zero point energy - basically virtual photons that exist in all of space but which do not contribute to the mass density of space. When you eliminate those modes, the density that area becomes negative, less than the density of a perfect vacuum.
But - there are no perfect conductors, just materials containing electrons. In any real situation the mass of the electrons is enor
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if you can create something that does allow faster than light communication (no matter how you do it) that violates causality - eg it means that "effects" can happen before "causes" :P
No it does not. Regardless how fast you communicate, the cause is always before the effect. Unless you want to talk about super small quantum effects, where we already have effects before the cause
Need Open, not Empty, Mind (Score:2)
We can afford a few hundred thousand to pay a couple of guys to think outside the box and dream.
No, we cannot because that few hundred thousand could be given to someone with well-thought-out, realistic resaerch which would be vastly more likely to result in a leap in understanding than giving it to a few Star-Trek fans with PhDs.
The energy densities required to fold space-time are insane: even subatomic particles in the highest energy accelerator on the planet fails to observe gravitational interactions. If they have a new theoretical model that makes this drive possible with far lower densities
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> No, we cannot because that few hundred thousand could be given to someone with well-thought-out, realistic resaerch which would be vastly more likely to result in a leap in understanding than giving it to a few Star-Trek fans with PhDs.
You made an argument about perceived value. You did not make an argument about affordability.
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The world has spent billions to smash atoms together in the hopes of confirming and/or discovering new physics.
We can afford a few hundred thousand to pay a couple of guys to think outside the box and dream.
Not if *this guy* hasn't *personally* benefitted, you can't! Envy rules America.
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Re: We can't even find the Malaysian jet... (Score:2)
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Wow, uh what? What does finding airplane wreckage at sea have to do with future physics space drives?
Nothing. Nothing at all.
People have been saying for decades now that we know more about space than the depths of the world's oceans, and while somewhat true, it doesn't really mean anything.
Re: We can't even find the Malaysian jet... (Score:2)
Well it does mean a lot.
Both endeavours are very expensive and frought with danger and unknown risks. Just the untapped potential of space is so much greater, so that's why the money is spent there.
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Re: We can't even find the Malaysian jet... (Score:2)
https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html
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Re: We can't even find the Malaysian jet... (Score:2)
You da man!
Re: We can't even find the Malaysian jet... (Score:1)
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And SpaceX, being a for-profit company, will reach an equilibrium of making good-enough products without thinking that much bigger on the off chance they find a bug in universal physics.
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You mean find a flaw in our universal physics models.
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We know there are flaws with our universal physics models. This is something worth investigating to perhaps fix the flaws.
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Still needs investigating to figure out how to exploit the flaws.
Re: Not again (Score:1)
I'll invest in SpaceX instead.
Obviously I have tremendous respect for Elon's accomplishments - "delight" is the word I'd use - but I suspect he'd be the first to tell you that he 'stands on the shoulders of giants' - and those giants include NASA.
Now if we could just get ULA out of the picture...
Re: Not again (Score:3)
True, but my god... think of all fhe money wasted on other programs.
Nicola Tesla was probably viewed as a nut job by many for a while, and yet I can't imagine where we would be without his work.
Interestingly, it wasn't public money that was spent in this case. Whoever it was later in this thread who mentioned spacex... maybe that isn't such a bad idea. (Ignoring much of the sadness in Tesla's story)
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True, but my god... think of all fhe money wasted on other programs.
I'm sure you have some specific wasteful ones in mind. I have no doubt they exist. But still, most research programs are... well, research. As in, if you knew it would work when you started, it wouldn't be research.
A negative result is a result, and adds to human knowledge.
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You do that and get nothing new. Well, you can daydream of Elon Musk gently caressing you as a thank you.
Re: Not again (Score:1)
Re:Not again (Score:4, Informative)
You seem confused about something. There are some at NASA who research alternatives to conventional rockets. The Em Drive was experimentally tested, found to not generate any meaningful level of thrust, and theories invalidated. That's how science works. You seem to have some other idea of how science works.
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The friggin' EmDrive and whatever that last "NASA" drive was. Just because someone has something to do with "NASA" doesn't make them credible. In fact, I am thinking NASA is full of nutters...
Apparently how science works eludes you. You have ideas. You test them. They work or they don't work. You learn. Testing something theoretical and finding out it doesn't work does not make one a nutter. It makes them intelligent.