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Government NASA Space The Almighty Buck

SpaceX Rocket Failure Cost NASA $110 Million 204

An anonymous reader writes: On June 28th, a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket exploded just over two minutes into its attempt to reach the International Space Station. It was a contracted mission from NASA to resupply the astronauts living there. Today, NASA associate administrator William Gerstenmaier said the price tag to taxpayers for that failed launch is $110 million. SpaceX is leading the investigation into the cause of the failure, and NASA officials faced tough questions about whether private companies should be allowed to direct investigations into their own failed launches. A similar inquiry is underway at Orbital ATK. NASA inspector general Paul Martin said his office is looking into the matter. Gerstenmaier added that NASA is thinking about making these companies take out insurance policies that would cover the cost to taxpayers in the event of another failure.
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SpaceX Rocket Failure Cost NASA $110 Million

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  • as always.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:19PM (#50084135)

    "Privatize the profits, socialize the risks."

    That's how big business works in the USA.

    • How many F35 test flights is $110 million?

    • by suutar ( 1860506 )

      I wonder what the cost to taxpayers would be if NASA were doing their own development and had a similar explosion.

    • by njnnja ( 2833511 )

      I'm not sure that is what is happening here. It seems reasonable that a rocket owner will refuse to take liability for the stuff on the rocket, since a rocket blowing up is not uncommon. So they basically say, "you can send stuff on our rocket at your own risk." Maybe the satellite owner should go out and buy insurance, but if it was up to the rocket owner to buy the insurance they would just pass that exact cost on to the payload owner (making the payload owner pay for the insurance indirectly).

      So the qu

    • by Loopy ( 41728 )

      Your insinuation that it doesn't work that way everywhere else (just with less transparency and less ability to say anything about the people doing it) is illuminating.

    • NASA negotiated the terms. There was no reason they could not have included an insurance requirement as commercial customers do. NASA should have. I'm not sure why they didn't but this isn't a SpaceX problem, nor a problem with commercial launch. If NASA was using their own vehicle (assuming they had one), not only would it have cost more for the launch, but the tax payer would have still been on the hook.

      These shameless attempts to discredit commercial launch providers and go back to status-quo, where

    • Re:as always.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by msauve ( 701917 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @05:57PM (#50085449)
      "NASA is thinking about making these companies take out insurance policies"

      Who do you think can make a better actuarial judgment of the risk, NASA or an insurance company? The government is certainly large enough to be self insured, which is in the long run cheaper than paying an insurance company which intends to make a profit to assume the risk.

      And, forcing the private launch service companies to take out insurance adds even more cost, by adding another level of administration to pass the money through.
      • "NASA is thinking about making these companies take out insurance policies"

        Who do you think can make a better actuarial judgment of the risk, NASA or an insurance company? The government is certainly large enough to be self insured, which is in the long run cheaper than paying an insurance company which intends to make a profit to assume the risk.

        And, forcing the private launch service companies to take out insurance adds even more cost, by adding another level of administration to pass the money through.

        but that's the whole point!!! pushing money through the stratosphere, not just into it. money is often refered to as liquidity because you can practically burn it like rocket fuel when

        eh, ideas stopped there

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:19PM (#50084145)

    Painful, but we'll live. There hasn't been a rocket yet that has a perfect operational record.

    • Painful, but we'll live. There hasn't been a rocket yet that has a perfect operational record.

      Oh sure there is... We've just not tried to launch it yet.... ;)

    • by thrich81 ( 1357561 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:33PM (#50084309)

      Saturn I -- 10 launches from 1961 to 1965, 10 operational successes. And that was using clustered engines and liquid hydrogen engines in the EARLY 60s.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by sycodon ( 149926 )

        And designed largely with pencils and slide rules.

        A feat that I highly doubt today's politically correct NASA could repeat today.

      • Saturn I -- 10 launches from 1961 to 1965, 10 operational successes. And that was using clustered engines and liquid hydrogen engines in the EARLY 60s.

        Successful, but not totally a clean record... SA-1 and 3 had issues related to improper fuel loads. AS-101 had an unexpected engine failure and AS-103 sand SA-104 had some minor failures. They all achieved their mission objectives, but the vehicle wasn't flawless.

        • by sphealey ( 2855 )

          = = = hey all achieved their mission objectives, but the vehicle wasn't flawless. = = =

          Was the design spec "get payload to correct orbit safely" or was it "get payload to orbit with zero subsystem failures"? Maybe there was a reason the designers chose to use five smaller engines and an control system that could compensate for the loss of one or two.

          sPh

          • by khallow ( 566160 )

            Was the design spec "get payload to correct orbit safely" or was it "get payload to orbit with zero subsystem failures"?

            Yes.

      • Statistics wise, with only 10 launches the system could really have up to a 10% failure rate and 0 failures in 10 would be a perfectly reasonable result.

        • Yea, it apparently had a similar failure rate to the Saturn V. Operationally it lost one engine in flight, had fueling issues for two flights and a whole host of minor issues and glitches both on the launch pad and in flight. Where it was successful at meeting it's objectives for each mission, it did not have a perfect record.

      • didn't do enough of them. there were design issues that would have surfaced . wikipedia on a friday night when you're bored

  • by Applehu Akbar ( 2968043 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:21PM (#50084159)

    SpaceX policy seems to be to collect rich telemetry from each launch, so that fault investigation can proceed from the data, rather than the old approach of fishing for wreckage and piecing it together to determine the cause. Does NASA do things this way too now, or is it still using the old style of forensics?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      NASA pays them to launch the rocket without taking into account the cost of a failure investigation, their process for how to proceed will be based on what data they have available, if rich telemetry is available they will use it, but in practice most don't have it because NASA wont pay for it. SpaceX spends extra to get that extra data, so they have it.

    • by mbone ( 558574 )

      SpaceX policy seems to be to collect rich telemetry from each launch

      And you think ULA, Orbital and Boeing don't?

      And, by the way, if you find any debris washed up on the beach (any beach) they want it - call the SpaceX debris recovery hotline, 866-392-0035.

      • Also, they immediately sent all the surface assets they had in the area to search for debris. I don't know where the GP got the notion that they aren't interested.

  • Insurance? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:24PM (#50084195)

    If I ship something, it is up to me to pay insurance if I wish to do so. Otherwise, I take my chances on something happening to the cargo or it getting completely lost.

    Why should the rocket manufacturer pay the insurance. That should be NASA's/the taxpayer's responsibility just like any other package delivery system. Let the insurance companies figure out a premium based on the success/failure rate of each rocket launching company and price accordingly.

    • Insurance companies don't lose money in the long run. If NASA insists on SpaceX taking out an insurance policy, that cost will be passed right onto customers (oh wait, NASA being the main one). This is a new and evolving industry, so say the insurance companies determine 1 in 10 launches will fail. So the insurance will cost $25M for every $100M in coverage, add 10% for SpaceX administration, $27.5M. Every $275M of taxpayers money, the insurance industry will pay out $100M. And every time they pay out, the

    • by DRJlaw ( 946416 )

      If I ship something, it is up to me to pay insurance if I wish to do so. Otherwise, I take my chances on something happening to the cargo or it getting completely lost.

      Utterly true. However, your shipper is not trying to develop safer delivery trucks or airplanes so as to reduce the frequency of accidents. Those are other entities (GMC, Boeing, etc.). Your shipping may be trying to reduce driver/pilot negligence or otherwise abate other people's negligence, but those are strategies that are either well-k

      • UPS and FedEx don't manufacture their trucks, but they're heavily involved in the development of the vehicles they use (other than perhaps the tractor-trailers). They have engineers that work directly with manufacturers on the layouts, materials, aerodynamics, and powerplants to find a mix of cost, fuel efficiency, security, and even safety.

        SpaceX is trying to break into a business with a completely new cost model, and a relatively new rocket model (mix of some proven technologies with some new ones and ev

    • Re:Insurance? (Score:4, Informative)

      by fiftyfly ( 516990 ) <mike@edey.org> on Friday July 10, 2015 @05:42PM (#50085347) Homepage
      Why should the rocket manufacturer pay the insurance
      Wait what? In many industries bonding is a prerequisite for simply submitting a bid and being bondable a prerequisite for being employed. Hell try getting a mortgage without insurance. This is so dumb I had to login to comment for the first time in years.
    • While a good argument, it's entirely moot. SpaceX is not going to eat the cost of insurance. They'll simply buy the insurance for NASA and add the cost of the insurance (and the costs involved with hiring someone to deal with the insurance) to the cost of the launch. NASA can buy insurance direct or it can use a middleman (SpaceX), in the end, NASA is paying for it either way.
  • Well, maybe more expensive Russian rockets cost what they do for a reason? Maybe promising 2-3 times cheaper price for the same (or better) service was a little too good to be true?
  • We should have hired SpaceX to build the Joint Strike Fighter. $110M for one capsule is nothing!

  • by Bugler412 ( 2610815 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50084315)
    Better than multiple billions and astronaut lives lost for a cargo run. Hell, a shuttle launch that succeeded cost over a billion per launch.
  • No Insurance?? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by foxalopex ( 522681 )

    Seeing how space travel isn't exactly safe and virtually all launch systems have at some point blown up, why wouldn't this be insured? You would think NASA or SpaceX would have some sort of insurance to cover for damages. Most of us have car insurance for example because statistically at some point virtually everyone has one car accident in their lifespan. As much as I find SpaceX a nifty company and a good idea. (It's so far had a pretty good track record for cost of launches) making it the most cost ef

    • Re:No Insurance?? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lab Rat Jason ( 2495638 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @04:06PM (#50084619)

      All insurance schemes are designed to amortize the risk... in this case, amortize the cost of a failure over the previous, and subsequent successes... and the middleman skims a little off the top. So I look at this and think buying insurance is actually just a waste of money.

      To anyone who would disagree: If the only insurance you've ever bought is for your car... you probably don't know shit about insurance.

    • Re:No Insurance?? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by fnj ( 64210 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @04:21PM (#50084739)

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that somehow insurance will lower the cost of the accidents. But it's perfectly obvious that, in the long term, that can't possibly be true. The insurance company has to make a profit - PLUS its own overhead costs. - plus of course covering the payouts.

      The reason an individual (unless very wealthy) doesn't self-insure is because the things he is insuring against are very low-runner risks, but if/when they do occur, he would be instantly bankrupt. That's not the case for the US government. $110 million is pin money. Petty cash. Pocket change. Rounding error. They can save money by self insuring.

      Now, if they didn't build in a cushion to the program to cover such boo-boos, that is entirely a different thing. Then they would be stupid. That doesn't change the equation that in the long run it is always cheaper to self insure.

      • I'm not convinced that it's cheaper for the government to pay for failures rather than buy insurance. The reason is that I believe it is easier to convince a government worker that the risks are lower than they really are, than an insurance company. So the government might make better informed decisions if an insurance company made their independent risk estimates.

  • by NostalgiaForInfinity ( 4001831 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:39PM (#50084363)

    Gerstenmaier added that NASA is thinking about making these companies take out insurance policies that would cover the cost to taxpayers in the event of another failure.

    I think this is a good idea, but not for the reason Gerstenmaier says. What it will do is get another private entity to look at the risks of these launches and price them accurately. This will make it clearer in the budget how costly these launches actually are.

    However, the cost for insurance will simply be added on top of the contract, so the tax payer pays for it either way. In fact, with insurance, the tax payer will pay more on average than without insurance.

    • "However, the cost for insurance will simply be added on top of the contract, so the tax payer pays for it either way. In fact, with insurance, the tax payer will pay more on average than without insurance."

      Exactly, and this is a good reason to NOT pay a third party for insurance.

      Insurance exists for infrequent casualty events that you do not have the balance sheet or liquidity to manage on your own, so you contract out for someone to provide you that balance sheet / liquidity, at a cost to you. For Pro

      • In this case, the government should either demand a discount from SpaceX in order to absorb the risk of launch loss,

        The government can "demand" whatever it wants. But if this were a free market transaction, SpaceX would, in fact, be raising its prices by roughly the same amount as an insurer would.

        Launch losses are a cost of doing business - pricing + negotiating power

        In a free market, "negotiating power" has no influence on costs. Any rational business is simply going to want to make roughly a market retur

    • True - the last customer in the supply chain always pays everyone's costs and margins or the product dies. What bonding-on-bid does though is force suppliers to get insurance before signing on contractual commitments thereby achieving two aims:
      • A) levelling the playing field between those who pre-emptively had their backsides covered and those who don't
      • B) filtering out all potential players for whom the market can not find a palatable cost at which to price their risk

      Insurance is important in most trades

      • Yes, that's pretty much what I meant by "this will make it clearer in the budget how costly these launches actually are."

        Part of the problem is that NASA is probably not very good at estimating the risks of suppliers, and it isn't motivated to do so anyway because understating the risk and self-insuring is a good way of getting funding for programs that wouldn't pass if the budget had to include risk.

    • I just finished explaining this to my parents (regarding life insurance). Insurance is for when you can't afford a failure. If my mom couldn't afford living expenses if my dad (the breadwinner) died, then it makes sense for him to get life insurance. But since they have adequate passive income to maintain their lifestyle even if one of them were to die, insurance isn't necessary.

      In the case of the government and space launches, the government can afford to pay for failures. So it makes no sense to in
      • I just finished explaining this to my parents (regarding life insurance). Insurance is for when you can't afford a failure.

        Well, good that you understand at least the basics of insurance. As I was saying, though, the point of insurance here is not that the government can't absorb the risk, it is to get accurate pricing:

        What it will do is get another private entity to look at the risks of these launches and price them accurately. This will make it clearer in the budget how costly these launches actually ar

  • Also for the Pad. (Score:5, Informative)

    by mbone ( 558574 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:40PM (#50084373)

    The Orbital failure took out the pad, which was owned by the Commonwealth of Virginia, which had neither insurance nor reserve cash to pay for a new one. That caused a scramble [spacenews.com] to find the bucks [usainspace.com] to repair the pad.

  • Insurance (Score:4, Informative)

    by jratcliffe ( 208809 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @03:40PM (#50084383)

    Practically every commercial satellite launch is insured. Typically runs $20-30 million for a $250-350 million satellite.

  • I can only imagine that Lockheed and United Launch Alliance's teams are all over this launch trying to discredit SpaceX. They cannot compete on price since SpaceX's ground-up engineering is so much cheaper than the Russian rockets they mark up. Last year they decided "We're going to cut our costs by half" - should have done that a long time ago. Seems like they're still struggilng to sort it out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    Honestly, it blows my mind that NASA didn't buy insurance in the first pl
    • by bondsbw ( 888959 )

      Insurance reduces immediate risk by spreading out the costs, for the price of a bit of overhead.

      But it's hard to spread out the cost of space launches. There aren't that many. And if you have enough money in the bank to pay for the crash, you shouldn't get insurance. In total you would be paying more for insurance (via overhead) than if you were uninsured.

  • He may be mistaken (Score:3, Informative)

    by kf6spf ( 1836776 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @04:02PM (#50084587) Homepage
    I'm not sure how he came up with $110 million in losses the taxpayer has to cover. The launch, part of SpaceX's CRS contract, is their cost. The contract says they have to deliver X number of supply runs. They lose a rocket, they still have to make X number of DELIVERIES. That means SpaceX has to eat the cost of a failed launch - part of the incentive to get it right. What the government (and tax payers) are on the hook for is the lost contents of the flight. I'm just surprised there was $110 million worth of food, fuel, oxygen and experiments. Seems a bit high.
    • I also thought the CRS contracts were for deliveries, not launches. Maybe he has included the cost of schedule changes for other launches that were already more expensive? But I guess saying that it is almost as expensive to reschedule a non-spaceX launch that it is to do a spaceX one doesn't come off as good in a headline. The CRS contract to SpaceX, according to the wikipedia page [wikipedia.org], is $1.6 billion for 12 launches, or $133 million per launch.
    • by guruevi ( 827432 )

      You're forgetting the pork attached to the thing. How much does freeze-dried food cost? How much does it cost when NASA buys it? A freeze dried yoghurt will require cows from Wisconsin to supply the milk to a yoghurt factory in Vermont after which it is shipped to a freeze drying place in Alabama and then it is shipped to a packing place in Texas before finally getting to the launch site in California, all transported by a New York transportation company.

      I've worked with government contractors, they typical

  • by DickBreath ( 207180 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @04:15PM (#50084701) Homepage
    It spreads the risk. That's all. My house probably is not going to burn down this year. But SOMEBODY's house DEFINITELY will. Insurance spreads the risk among policy holders.

    How many rocket launch policy holders are there to spread the risk among?

    I suppose an insurance underwriter could spread the rocket launch risk (and cost) among their auto and home policy holders. That will make them uncompetitive in the auto and home insurance market. So they'll have to keep the risk amongst similar policy holders for rocket launches.

    Ultimately, just like houses burning down, some rocket launches WILL fail.

    If NASA is forced (maybe by ignorant Congress who must "do something!") to buy insurance, then the cost of failure is still passed to the policy holders (eg, mostly taxpayers). Plus now you've got another industry (insurance) getting their fingers in the pie and making a profit. If Congress or NASA forces SpaceX to get insurance, then SpaceX will pass the cost of insurance on to NASA and ultimately taxpayers in the form of higher launch prices.

    No matter how you slice it, the customers of rocket launches WILL bear the costs of inevitable failure. There's not that many customers to spread the costs amongst like there are for homeowners.
  • by RevWaldo ( 1186281 ) on Friday July 10, 2015 @04:41PM (#50084897)
    And we had our hearts set on getting that F-35 jet fighter!

    Well, 3/4 of one anyway...

    .
  • Didn't congress give them but $230 Million for this kid of thing just recently?

    Dang, this is half the year's budget. It's going to hurt the commercial crew budget. I guess this just validates the position of congress then that Space X just isn't ready enough to get their stuff human rated and they apparently need some more time to work out the kinks... Shame they blew up almost a half of the budget though...

    • by Mirar ( 264502 )

      Doesn't SpaceX so far have a much better track record of not blowing stuff up than NASA? Certainly better than the russians.

      If you find a magic solution that doesn't fail sometimes (used to be SpaceX) then I'm sure NASA is interested. ;)

  • Of coure private companies should be allowed to investigate their failures. They just shouldn't have an exclusive right to do so. They pay for their investigation, the government pays for it's investigation, any other involved parties pay for their investigation. The data isn't kept secret. (Not being secret doesn't mean that what it means will be obvious, hence the plausibility of multiple investigations.)

  • by samantha ( 68231 ) *

    When did NASA pay for any of its failed launches? When did the big boys it usually contracts with pay? When did the Russians pay for their failures? This is bullshit.

  • by Mirar ( 264502 ) on Saturday July 11, 2015 @03:49AM (#50087395) Homepage

    So the risk instead would be spread out into a higher launch fee (taxpayers) and higher insurance fees for everyone (taxpayers).

    The insurance would make the cost of the launch a lot higher, and NASA (taxpayers) would have to pay that.
    Money doesn't grow in insurance companies either - they are re-insured and the cost is spread out to everyone.

    But I guess it would look better for NASA?

    (That said, I thought insurance was involved already. At least for individual projects blowing up?)

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