NASA Summoned To Fix Prius Problems 380
coondoggie writes "If you want to solve a major engineering mystery, why not bring in some of the world's best engineers? The US Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration today said it was doing just that by bringing in NASA engineers with expertise in areas such as computer controlled electronic systems, electromagnetic interference, and software integrity to help tackle the issue of unintended vehicle acceleration in Toyotas. The NHTSA review of the electronic throttle control systems in Toyotas is to be completed by late summer." We're really in trouble when NASA has no choice but to call Bruce Willis.
Queue joke... (Score:2, Funny)
How many engineers does it take to fix a Toyota?
Re:Queue joke... (Score:5, Funny)
Three.
One to remove the floor-mat.
One to absorb the cosmic rays supposedly causing the problem.
One to actually fix the problem, by reintroducing mechanical acceleration.
I'll be here all day.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, why is it in these stories of runaway acceleration, that nobody slaps the thing into neutral and hits the brakes? The stories always read
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Mechanical throttles are conceptually simpler and have more obvious and obviously testable failure cases. It's not that hard to deal with them.
However, drive by wire introduces a number of layers of complexity and abstraction. In addition to mechanical failure cases, now you have electronic (hardware) and logical (software) problems as well. The added complexity makes all of this much more difficult to address, and it insulates the driver from the overall control of the vehicle.
This being said, I think i
Re:Queue joke... (Score:4, Interesting)
That said, why is it in these stories of runaway acceleration, that nobody slaps the thing into neutral and hits the brakes? The stories always read like "I was powerless to stop my deathcar!" but drivers have lots of options in situations like that. You can even just turn the car off and hope you haven't picked up a vacuum leak.
I hear that these cars are "too smart" to let you shift while driving. I drive a stick (my preference) so I have no idea if that's accurate or not, but I did sit in a Prius at an auto show once and there's nothing mechanical about the drive/park/reverse selector. It merely indicates to the computer what you would like to do.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I have to correct you. I personally knew the man, as well as the other three passengers, and he certainly did not have epilepsy. We attended the same church for nearly 15 years and he was good friends with my father. The accelerator pedal was already questioned in the media when this accident occurred and the family has never issued a public statement on their view of the cause. The only people who spoke to reporters were eye witnesses.
That being said, I too believe this accelerator pedal situation is incre
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah...
How many Russians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Two. But don't ask how they got in there....
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And the people who write code for throttle-by-wire systems probably have an engineering background. At least, they damn well better!
Regardless, it would be the responsibility of Software/Computer Engineers to fix any problem in code.
If you want to stop things from moving anywhere... (Score:5, Funny)
Competition is good (Score:5, Funny)
Toyota's engineers needed a challenger.
Re: (Score:2)
So does Toyota, maybe it'll cancel out?
Re: (Score:2)
NASA has a reputation for crashing and burning.
Does Toyota work in metric or imperial? Because we might all be screwed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
All the bolts I have dealt with on my Toyota are in metric...this can only end badly.
So... (Score:4, Interesting)
So, this is an admission that sticking pedals and faulty floormats had nothing to do with the problem, and that the recalls to fix pedal and floormat "problems" were simply a smokescreen to hide the actual cause of the problem (albeit, unknown cause)?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
And as a bonus, the US taxpayers get to pay for it instead of Toyota.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
>And as a bonus, the US taxpayers get to pay for it instead of Toyota.
Except that's not true in any sense.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
And all the employees of the US-located Toyota factories might get to keep their jobs.
It annoys the shit out of me when people fail to take into account that many foreign companies actually produce their products HERE in the US.
Why? Two reasons, really. It is cheaper to sell cars that don't need to be shipped half way around the world (a cost that is usually passed onto the consumer), and because we Americans whined and sniveled about foreign entities putting our citizens out of work. In short, they did what we wanted them to do.
Now it is time to help them out and POSSIBLY SAVE LIVES. I cannot think of a more noble reason to get NASA involved, or ANY agency for that matter.
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What If (Score:5, Interesting)
CAN Protocol(the de-facto automotive protocol) contains error checking. So if a node in the system sends out 00000001 but the "sun spot" turns it to 01000001, it finds that error. So unless it changes that to a 01000001, while also changing the parity bit(or whatever they use for error checking) to 0 as well(as compared to 1), WHILE ALSO somehow disabling the entire safety section of code that reduces the throttle input when brakes are applied... then I seriously doubt it.
Everyone involved in this knows the above facts, what they have to do is prove the above facts. The reason they called in NASA is because they lack the right type of experts, NASA does not. Case closed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Depends on what the bit error rate is. And the bit rate per second.
One error in 10^-15 bits could mean "a few months after the sun died" or "next friday somewhere on a rural road in western virginia" depending on that.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think they are clearly software-related. But the question is what the root cause is.
You don't always know what the error condition is. It could be: "Well if the solder is cracked on this connection and this other sensor fails in this way, the following feedback loop is created and the software responds to the erroneous input by accelerating the car."
This is almost certainly some sort of cascade from the root problem. The cascade is software related. The root problem may well be hardware related. How
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
It was my understanding that the entire problem was caused by some Shadowrunners hired by GM and Ford to break into the Toyato supply lines. I heard it was a three pronged attack, their decker injected some software bugs, they let a troll loose in the factory to fuck with the pedals and they got a shaman to curse the floor mats.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
It was my understanding that the entire problem was caused by some Shadowrunners hired by GM and Chrysler to break into the Toyota supply lines. I heard it was a three pronged attack, their decker injected some software bugs, they let a troll loose in the factory to fuck with the pedals and they got a shaman to curse the floor mats.
FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder if this would have happened, if the gremlins hadn't taken over the NSA?
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
What's really wrong? I don't know (I'm sort of 50/50 between it being a software race condition or driver error [thecarconnection.com]). But one would think that EMI wouldn't result in several cases of the exact same system failure.
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
They don't: [washingtonpost.com]
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
And if the reason it is so cheap for them now is because of inadequate development practices (testing, code review, etc), I'll be all the more happier to pay the extra price. The question isn't did Toyota fuck-up here. The question is how may fuck-ups where there before they got caught. And how many fuck-ups are there in the rest of the automotive industry that just haven't surfaced (because of any one of a number of reasons)...
Re: (Score:2)
That is the real question, is any auto business finding the unknown unknown bug that is affecting Toyot?a. This isnt a politics question its a science question.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Toyota has had problems with:
- engines sludging after only 20-30,000 miles
- prematurely dying hybrid batteries
- out-of-control cars hitting walls or driving off ledges at 100mph
Ford has also had problems since some of their engines/batteries are supplied by Toyota. The KEY difference is that Ford honored the warranty and replaced those items free-of-charge. Toyota stuck their customers with ~$7000 bills to buy new engines or hybrid batteries, and pretended the warranty didn't exist.
Toyota found itself in
Re: (Score:2)
Re:So... (Score:5, Informative)
This is an "admission" of nothing. Nowhere does it say that Toyota has asked NASA to help out.
The NHTSA is asking NASA to help out, but the NHTSA has never asserted that this was a pedal or floormat problem. They've just been holding Toyota to the fire to get a fix. And the fixes so far do not appear to be working.
This is a sign that the NTSB is likely suspicious of Toyota's explanation, and frustrated with continuing reports of sudden acceleration even on "fixed" cars, and would like someone without a vested interest in a cheap fix to examine this. Given NASA's experience with writing software that's just gotta work or else, I'd be very hard-pressed to think of no better team of programmers for the job.
Re: (Score:2)
And considering that the NHTSA has absolutely no experience with or personnel capable of writing or even reading software [thecarconnection.com], they have to go _somewhere_.
Re: (Score:2)
NASA involved because of aviation incidents (Score:2)
--
Perpenso Calc [perpenso.com] for iPhone and iPod touch, scientific and bill/tip calculator, fractions, complex numbers, RPN
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Hence the name "National Aeronautics and Space Administration", eh? ;)
Seriously, yes, you are correct. The FAA regulates, but NASA is responsible for a lot of the research.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
If NASA cannot find a problem, then Toyota is off the hook.
If NASA does find a problem, then Toyota can say -- "It was such a subtle problem, it took NASA's resources and expertise to find and fix it."
Either way, it can be spun positively by the PR folks.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And afterward, "Safety so good, it was verified by NASA
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
>>>pedal and floormat "problems" were simply a smokescreen to hide the actual cause of the problem
Yes it's been Toyota's modus operandi since about 2000 - blame the customer not Toyota:
- "My car accelerated out of control, even when I shifted to neutral!". - It was your fault, not ours. - TOYOTA.
- "My car's engine (times about 100,000 other engines) died after only 20,000 miles. It's under warranty and would like a new one." No. It is the fault of the customer for not changing oil. - TOYOT
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's disingenuous to single out Toyota when so many other major car makers habve a similar track record.
Here's [consumeraffairs.com] a primer to help anyone who thinks that the arrogance of car manufacturers is limted to Toyota.
Of note, check out numbers 1&2 on the list... exploding Fords again (albeit just spitting a spark plug, not a fuel tank explosion).
Re: (Score:2)
To whoever modded me troll: You're right, the government would *never* play politics on an issue like this.
When US auto-manufacturers experienced a similar issue several years ago, the government did the exact same thing.
Right?
Apparently... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Apparently... (Score:5, Insightful)
In all seriousness, no, its not.
They need to call in the guys at IGT. They make the majority of the slot machines and video poker machines in the world. If anyone knows about ensuring data integrity, and error checking, etc in embedded systems, it is them.
Its amazing how much detail and error checking go into any system dealing with money, but not with human lives.
Re:Apparently... (Score:5, Insightful)
They didn't do so well either....
Colorado Woman Celebrates $42 Million Slot Machine Win Until Casino Says Machine Malfunctioned
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/colorado-42-mil-jackpot-winner-jack/story?id=10235836 [go.com]
This reminds me of... (Score:3, Informative)
Working as a developer at a tiny shop just out of college. Any time the CEO had troubles figuring out how to access a website I would be summoned to "just fix it" for him.
Re:This reminds me of... (Score:5, Funny)
uh oh (Score:5, Funny)
Don't forget to tell them the Japanese use the metric system please.
Hmmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Government has been helping car manufacturers, banks, wall street execs, etc, etc. for a long time now. Hope you aren't just realizing this now. Otherwise, put the shotgun and the shaving blades in a locked compartment and throw the key away, cause you are in for a depressing ride...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Willis!? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Floor Mats (Score:4, Insightful)
If the problems with the shuttles were related to floor mats then perhaps NASA could help. Otherwise, it's just another set of computer scientists looking over a few million lines of code they didn't write, trying to find a defect that has supposedly manifest itself less than a few hundred times out of million of cars and probably billions of miles driven.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If the problems with the shuttles were related to floor mats then perhaps NASA could help. Otherwise, it's just another set of computer scientists looking over a few million lines of code they didn't write, trying to find a defect that has supposedly manifest itself less than a few hundred times out of million of cars and probably billions of miles driven.
Which means the newest guy at NASA will find it in the first week, and solve it by adding a semi-colon.
Re:Floor Mats (Score:5, Interesting)
There's other theories, too, that NASA could help with. Such as current spikes or other hardware problems.
In reality, NASA may be a perfect choice given their experience with designing fault-tolerant systems. That means everything from protecting the system from the environment to software validation. The control systems in a car have become very complex, approaching that of airplanes and rockets. I think NASA is a good choice, although I might have gone with an aerospace company instead, such as Boeing, Lockheed, Northrop, EADS, etc.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd say the control systems have become far more complex in cars than in airplanes or rockets. The problem being that they don't need to have all the redundancy under most circumstances. This is one of the few places though where it's similar to an airplane falling out of the sky. 99% of the time though if something fails in a car's control system it just means sitting on the side of the road waiting for AAA.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Floor Mats (Score:5, Interesting)
Otherwise, it's just another set of computer scientists looking over a few million lines of code they didn't write, trying to find a defect that has supposedly manifest itself less than a few hundred times out of million of cars and probably billions of miles driven.
You're confusing "electronic" with "software." One possible theory is that interference (internal or external) is causing signals between parts to become corrupted. My understanding (having RTFA) is that they are focusing on the electrical engineering aspects of it. I would imagine that NASA, needing to design and test equipment in the harsh environment of space, is pretty darn good at exactly that.
Realigning NASA mission to automotive (Score:5, Interesting)
Spend MILLIONS of dollars.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The cars do not have a Manual gearbox or ignition as such. Both are computer controlled. You only get a "start" button for the ignition, and thats about it, the rest is not in your hands. You can't just "shift into neutral" like in existing cars, or just turn a key to cut power to the engine.
For more info on the system, you can read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive [wikipedia.org]
So I guess.... (Score:2)
this *IS* one of those problems that requires a rocket scientist to figure out. I never thought I'd see the day. My life is now complete.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Toyota testified in front of congress, "We're automotive engineers not rocket scientists."
Congress said, "I know a guy, that knows a guy. Let me make a phone call."
now this.
Re: (Score:2)
this *IS* one of those problems that requires a rocket scientist to figure out. I never thought I'd see the day. My life is now complete.
Toyota doesn't utilize rocket propulsion on the Prius, unfortunately.
Hang in there.
a public relations stunt (Score:3, Insightful)
I think this is a stunt on 2 levels:
1. Public relations need to be fixed somehow, so calling in NASA shows that the company is 'dead serious' about fixing this problem and they are going for the best people to do it, right?
2. A small token of appreciation to the government of USA by hiring NASA people, creating some employment, probably this is done with an involvement of a senator or two, some governor maybe, whatever, some politicians will get involved and this is probably important for Toyota now.
3. Something else, again not really related to the actual car problem, but trying to save the company's ass.
Re:a public relations stunt (Score:4, Interesting)
I said this earlier:
If NASA does find a problem then Toyota can spin it as it being so subtle that it took the resources of NASA to find it. They can then use this, with PR spin, and an agreement to contract with NASA for "consulting" as a win.
If NASA finds nothing, then Toyota is off the hook wrt the drive by wire system, again a win.
Re: (Score:2)
Except that Toyota is not hiring NASA. A US Government office is.
Re:a public relations stunt (Score:5, Informative)
Fate it seems... (Score:4, Informative)
What is truly ironic here is that NASA regularly [nasa.gov] summons [wikipedia.org] external [wikipedia.org] panels [nasa.gov] to fix their problems.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Three of those that you cited were incidents that caused loss of crew and vehicle, some quite dramatic. Had they kept the resulting investigation internal for those were very public events, they could have been accused of covering something up. Or maybe they wouldn't have truly found the fault, or deluded themselves into thinking it was just an accident. What if we never knew that engineers were requesting imaging of Columbia? Or that engineers were trying to say "no go" to Challenger? Whatever they were do
NASA does have experience (Score:2)
With electric vehicles (Mars and Lunar Rover)
Re:NASA does have experience (Score:5, Informative)
Moreover, their vehicles operate in adverse conditions (radiation, temperature extremes, chance of collisions with fast moving things). They might actually be fairly adept at looking at systems which are supposed to be robust and failsafe, and identifying ways in which they are NOT failsafe.
Credibility... (Score:2)
I've heard a lot of rumors in recent years about poor technical abilities at NASA. I wonder if this is primarily meant to give NASA some street cred.
Slashdot fail? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is Slashdot and we suggest the most insane stuff be Open Source (e.g. "Why isn't my Microwave under GPL?"). But yet when we have an absolutely perfect opportunity to suggest that cars should be REQUIRED to be Open Source for public safety we drop the ball. Come on guys, we can use the power of Open Source and "many eyes" to literally save lives. You could be the geek that finds that piece of code!
Re: (Score:2)
Bruce Willis? (Score:2)
$3 Mil? (Score:3, Funny)
Bruce Willis? (Score:4, Funny)
Oooh.... (Score:2)
> We're really in trouble when NASA has no choice but to call Bruce Willis.
Oooh... do we get to see him blow up a Prius? With him inside?
This will be interesting. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd really like to see how the computer in the car manages to consistently only enter this mysterious state when the driver is 60 or older (or maybe in the late 50s). Because normally, if you have a ton of examples of something failing, all of which involve people of an age famed for acquired inattentiveness or confusion, and which look just like many other reported and documented cases of elderly folks getting confused and hitting the gas pedal thinking it's the brakes, you'd not assume it was the computer.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Because young drivers go to jail when their Toyota kills people: http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/02/25/man-given-8-years-for-vehicular-homicide-in-2007-may-be-freed-using-toyota-defense/ [dvorak.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
maybe younger drivers are more likely to notice the problem sooner and shift into neutral faster than older drivers?
Now we are in trouble (Score:2)
And NASA will have to call in... (Score:3, Funny)
...Richard Feynman. Oh wait.
It's a win-win situation (Score:4, Funny)
Toyota will learn what went wrong with its software, and NASA will find out how to get a vehicle into space.
It's a code problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, I think people are idiots. lots of accidents are cause by poorly maintained floormats, doing your lipstick, texting, etc. This isn't the problem here. There are way too many incidents of various natures to be accounted for by this.
Yes, I think electromagnetic radiation exists. Yes, it can produce measurable effects. This, is also, not the problem here. EMF does not cause motors to turn with any appreciable torque. Modern electronics are sufficiently robust to this type of sporadic interference to account for this.
The problem here is in the code. I have written embedded software. It is WAAAY too easy to make a subtle mistake in an embedded environment that has limited processing power, highly asynchronous processing and a multitude of cooperating software and hardware modules. Further more, it can be a total bitch to debug these environments and the faults that they can exhibit can be nearly impossible to reproduce. And in EVERY case where I've seen "Hey, it shouldn't do that. The code doesn't have it doing that!" it turns that yes, it was doing exactly what the code had it do under those circumstances.
So, Want to save time and money? Ignore looking at anything other than code. Analyze the hell out of the software and you will find the culprit lurking there. You can put me on record for predicting this. (if they even 'fess up to the cause once found.)
Re:Paid off by the government? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Without a motive, inventing conspiracy theories in advance seems rather pointless.
The motive is the government is a major investor and primary share-holder in the competition. If you can't see a conflict of interest here, then you're not looking hard enough.
In addition, it's not "in advance" if the government is already playing headline-grabbing politics on the issue and has been for months.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Motive: Millions of union members of GM and their suppliers depend on the success and will continue to vote for the current government to insure others' lack of success--especially the company that put GM to #2.
Re: (Score:2)
Chrysler was owned by a German company at the time.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
wow, i can't even think in that kind of direction. Thank you for sharing but that does sound very unlikely. There was a part in the article talking about other private industry problems that NASA has helped with, but they don't mention Chrysler.. someone will have to research that.
"In 2003, NASA and the NHTSA wanted to research new methods for testing vehicle rollover resistance after a widely reported factory recall of Firestone tires. NASA's High Capacity Centrifuge (HCC) was the answer. Vehicles were s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and if NASA let you or me drive their vehicles, their accident rate would be a bit higher...
I'm now interested in how many astronauts and NASA engineers drive Toyotas, and if any have had this problem... Curious...