LHC Shut Down By Transformer Malfunction 293
Ortega-Starfire writes "A 30-ton transformer in the Large Hadron Collider malfunctioned, requiring complete replacement on the day the LHC came online. No one at CERN reported any problems, and they only released this data once the Associated Press sent people to investigate rumors of problems. I guess it's hard to just sweep a 30-ton transformer breaking under the rug."
Transformers... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
They're going to use the LHC to make energy cubes.
But of course, you already knew that.
Re:Transformers... (Score:5, Funny)
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Seems more like an exploration of this. [uncyclopedia.org]
Re:Transformers... (Score:5, Informative)
They're going to use the LHC to make energon cubes.
There, fixed that for you. Also, turn in your geen badge.
Re:Transformers... (Score:5, Insightful)
There, fixed that for you. Also, turn in your geek badge.
Fixed.
Re:Transformers... (Score:5, Funny)
You know, that very well may be the first time I've seen on Slashdot, where "there, fixed that for you," actually fixed an actual issue. Bravo, sir.
Re:Transformers... (Score:5, Funny)
There, fixed that for you. Also, turn in your geek badge.
Transformed.
Re:Transformers... (Score:4, Funny)
There, fixed that for you. Also, turn in your geek badge.
There, fixed that for you. Also, turn in your English homework.
morethanmeetstheeye (Score:4, Funny)
You folks crack me up.
Re:morethanmeetstheeye (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:morethanmeetstheeye (Score:5, Funny)
Re:morethanmeetstheeye (Score:5, Funny)
Re:morethanmeetstheeye (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean this as no insult to digg, but the comments on the articles (and most of the articles themselves) are absolute shit. Most of the people commenting are - by their own admission - highschoolers and young college kids. With Slashdot, at least there's some pretense of being accurate and factual in the comments - users who troll or make ill-informed posts are usually modded down or corrected by other users.
In summary, I submit to you a summary of the current digg RSS feed as evidence of article and community quality on digg -
The above is but a small sample of the typical digg feed. Oddly, there aren't any "Marijuana will cure everything and it's 'big pharma' keeping it illegal maaaaaan" articles in the feed, but I'm sure those will trickle in as the day goes on.
:-)
Seriously. Digg is fucking retarded. Hang out there for a week and tell me Slashdot has approached that level of stupidity or redundancy.
No offense to digg or the OP, BTW
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A Transformer? (Score:5, Funny)
I bet it was Omegatron!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think it was Gary Seven [wikipedia.org] saving our butts once more.
Dead 30 ton transformer? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Dead 30 ton transformer? (Score:4, Funny)
If it's any help, I swept Optimus Prime under a rug in three hours. No biggie.
GORDON! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:GORDON! (Score:5, Funny)
http://i35.tinypic.com/256fu4g.jpg [tinypic.com]
Uncanny Valley in real life?!? (Score:3, Funny)
Boy, howdy! Talk about the Uncanny Valley -- his eyes totally give me the creeps!
Cheers,
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Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a big, complicated machine - shit breaks. It gets fixed. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're waiting for beam time.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Funny)
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Link to current status page (Score:5, Informative)
The current status of the beam can always be viewed here [web.cern.ch]
All other status informations are linked from here [web.cern.ch]
So maybe they didn't make a press release, but perhaps journalists should be smart enough to find these pages instead of claiming conspiracies?
Re:Link to current status page (Score:4, Interesting)
The current status of the beam can always be viewed here [web.cern.ch]
Which currently says "We just had a major quench in sector 34. More news as we get it"
IIRC a quench (loss of superconductivity because of the magnetic fields) is likely to cause extra damage, so this sounds a lot more important than a simple transformer failure. Plus therer might be design issues that caused it.
Good luck to the LHC team. I guess this is how a real beta goes
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Um, wow. Where do I start?
A) This isn't just some ordinary big, complicated machine. That should be obvious. For example, there was a huge hurrah when it launched.
B) It has been down longer than it was up. By a factor of what, 3? In fact, it took them longer to draft a press release than the thing was up. It probably took longer to coordinate the big fanfare mentioned above than it was up. This is noteworthy.
C) Isn't this the controversial machine that may or may not destroy the planet itself? Do
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You've clearly never participated in any big launch of a technology. Heck, if software project first demos went as well as the LHC's, developers would be ecstasic.
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In short, I don't really think this has much in common with your 'little accelerator' at all.
... actually, if you have 'little' problems with a 'little' accelerator, why would you expect 'little' to 'none' problems with a BIG accelerator?
Besides, if it was a big deal, they would have made it a big deal. As it stands, it is only being fixed because it could become a PR headache - not because it is a big deal.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Informative)
a) Yes, it is a big complicated machine, things will break, this device barely impacted the overall schedule at all. People have been working on this project for about 2 decades. A week or two isn't in the least bit significant.
b) If this had happened say, 5 years from now, this point would be as irrelevant as it is now. And as noteworthy.
c) Cosmic rays interact in our atmosphere in the PeV range (Peta Electron Volt), the LHC smashes particles together in the 14 TeV (Tera Electron Volt). Sooo.... it operates at energy levels an order of magnitude less than what currently happens on Earth... I don't know about you, but I feel pretty safe about the whole thing.
d) They did fix it pronto, and it does work. Little things break, I know where I work (a not so little accelerator) I didn't hear a PEEP about this incident and we have been directly and closely involved in the LHC.
In short, I agree with hairykrishna, this isn't really news. Just another instance of the media trying to make a big deal out of something small.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Funny)
... trying to make a big deal out of something small.
I was just thinking that this is the most concise way of describing a particle physicist's job.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yay, scientists have facts, but the rest of people will have questions.
Actually it's the other way round.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't this the controversial machine that may or may not destroy the planet itself?
Goddammit NO. It's the machine that will not destroy the planet, but some controversial people have done a damn good job of spreading rumors that it will. The point of the LHC is to re-create events that occur everywhere in the universe all the time, including here on earth. It's just not practical to put 50' diameter detectors hanging in the upper atmosphere and wait for a particle collision to happen inside of one.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's just not practical to put 50' diameter detectors hanging in the upper atmosphere and wait for a particle collision to happen inside of one.
heh, b/c building a 27km underground tunnel is generally considered "practical".
Note that I am in very much favor of these highly experimental projects but I don't really think of them as practical.
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A & B) thats why they are just testing it now, this isnt even going to affect the schedule they're on much.
C) No there are some nut-jobs but, meh ( i mean somebodies got to vote for palin)
D) Actually it was mainly paid for by a few governments. if your referring to the work scientists have put in, then Im sure they would rather this stuff came out in the testing & calibration than getting a bad dataset at the end
I very much doubt his little accelerator is just for decoration, not all research is do
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the problem is that everyone who actually understands this big complicated machine also understands they break, especially when first built.
This are one of a kind structures. Everyone who matters in the project or in the community that really knows how it works and what it does has probably dealt with previous ones ... which breaking or needing major changes early on isn't a shocker for them.
To the guys who are working on it, it was probably just a question of what broke, not if it broke. We're not talking about creating a piston engine, which we've been doing for a hundred years, we're talking about new technology custom built for the project for the most part. The transformer probably wasn't, but they break too. I have a coworker whos husband worked for a large power company, helping to install substations, it wasn't suprising to him that it broke, appearently for large scale transformers its still hit or miss when they first start being used.
If no one involved in the project is really 'shocked' that it broke, maybe it the thought that it should be a media frenzy never crossed their minds?
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Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Funny)
They're not trying to cover up a broken transformer - they're trying to cover up the tiny black hole that formed in the transformers, and is growing exponentially.
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They're not trying to cover up a broken transformer - they're trying to cover up the tiny black hole that formed in the transformers, and is growing exponentially.
Not to worry, once this gets too big to contain, I can guarantee that no information about the disaster will ever get out.
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Ugh, that was a singularly bad pun.
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Well, duh. You'd have to be infinitely dense to not see that.
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I agree, this is hardly news.
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:4, Interesting)
The summary authors don't seem to understand. Nobody at CERN reported the malfunction? I assume they mean "reported to the press" -- otherwise, how did they fix a 30-ton transistor without telling anyone.
Anyway, things malfunction and break on particle accelerators constantly. They're devilishly difficult to maintain properly. (They operate in extreme fail-safe modes, so failures harmless but common.)
Re:Why the tone in the summary? (Score:5, Interesting)
Summary plainly misleading (Score:5, Informative)
They have day-to-day log of the activities at https://lhc-commissioning.web.cern.ch/lhc-commissioning/dailynews/index.htm [web.cern.ch] I didn't have any problems finding this logs at the LHC website.
Transformer outage and cryogenics breakdown is logged on September 13. They were not 'rumors'.
Not the end of the world... (Score:3, Interesting)
Can one of you physicists tell me how 4.5 Kelvin is different from 2 Kelvin, operationally?
Re:Not the end of the world... (Score:5, Informative)
Can one of you physicists tell me how 4.5 Kelvin is different from 2 Kelvin, operationally?
At 2 K, adding a given amount of energy makes the entropy of the system go up 2.25 times as much as it would at 4.5 K. :)
Re:Not the end of the world... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not the end of the world... (Score:4, Funny)
Lipstick.
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You posted that in the wrong thread. Let me help you.
Just in case anyone else misread the headline, there's a vas deferens between the Large Hadron Collider and the Large Hardon Collider.
Lipstick.
Blackhole malfunction (Score:2)
Thank God it wasn't a blackhole malfunction.
Or rather, thank the God particle.
Re:Not the end of the world... (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I haven't the faintest idea how the damn thing is cooled, but helium becomes superfliud at 2.17K (iirc). It effectively loses all of its viscosity and becomes far more thermally conductive. At 2K its a superfluid, at 4.5K its not. Cool stuff, but I don't know if it matters, I don't know squat about the LHC. (see what you get for asking a question on /.?)
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Can one of you physicists tell me how 4.5 Kelvin is different from 2 Kelvin, operationally?
IANAP, but I'm sure that it makes a really big difference at a really small level.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Re:Not the end of the world... (Score:5, Informative)
The magnets they use to shape and steer the beam require about 12,000 amps, so they use superconductors. Between 2K and 4.5K, the superconductor undergoes a phase change and becomes non-superconducting, and the resistance goes from zero to not zero all of a sudden. The 12,000 amps suddenly produces an incredible amount of heat (P=I^2R) which drastically increases the pressure from the liquid He. That much pressure means the He needs to escape (violently), causing all sorts of trouble. It's called a 'quench.'
Mod parent up. (Score:2)
Not Quite the point here (Score:5, Interesting)
The used superconductors are good well above 4K (although with decreased maximum saturation).
The main point is that they want their helium to be superfluidic, as otherwise it would be impossible to direct the heat over the many km needed (if their were bubble formation in the dewars).
With superfluidic helium, heat resistance also drops nearly to zero(as we are in the real world, it cannot be zero. But heat conductivity increases by many magnitudes, and bubble formation is eliminated). That way, they can keep heat gradients along the whole ring well below 1K.
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sweep a 30-ton transformer breaking under the rug? (Score:5, Funny)
It would be hard to sweep a 30-ton transformer under a rug, unless there is a black hole under said rug.
Re:sweep a 30-ton transformer breaking under the r (Score:5, Funny)
True, but if they're real scientists they'd figure out it's easier to sweep the black hole under the 30-ton transformer. When done, cover up with rug.
Re:sweep a 30-ton transformer breaking under the r (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know how you do it. It never works for me.
I could've sworn I left my favorite rug on top of the black hole in the living room the other day but, crazy as it sounds, it seems to have just disappeared. I'd swear on a stack of bibles that's where I left the dang thing and you know it didn't just grow legs and walk out of the house.
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I know you're joking, but I can just see someone taking you seriously.
For reference, the black holes it may create will evaporate almost instantly and are so tiny they won't small much of anything before disappearing. Well... thats theory as I understand it anyway.
And no, the joke didn't whoosh me, I got it :) I just can see many people whooshing :)
One transformer down... (Score:5, Funny)
several to go.
Well ALICE, let's see how deep the budget hole goes...
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It must be pretty deep. Maybe when she climbs down there, she will find the 10,000 ton cracked magnet stored there. [slashdot.org]
Of course. (Score:2)
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Reminder (Score:5, Funny)
Just in case anyone else misread the headline, there's a vas deferens between the Large Hadron Collider and the Large Hardon Collider.
Re:Reminder (Score:5, Funny)
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I have a degree in electrical engineering... (Score:4, Funny)
...and I didn't realize the standard measurement for transformers had been changed to tons. Must be a European measurement?
I think kVA or MVA would be a better statistic.
Not Everyone Has That Degree (Score:3, Insightful)
Well that's great that you have that degree, but not everyone does. To people who aren't too familiar with that area of study or work, saying "30 tons" paints a much better picture in the reader's minds.
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Because obviously every person should spend every spare moment posting on slashdot, and learning everything there is to know about anything.
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Agreed, telling people it is 30 tons lets them know it isn't as simple as changing a light bulb. Telling them that the transformer is rated for a certain electrical rating doesn't in anyway indicate that it is likely the size of a house.
A mechnical engineer wrote the story... (Score:3, Funny)
..he just assumed that something which might be involved with cooling must be rated in the amount of ice it can create in a day.
Re:I have a degree in electrical engineering... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a fairly standard measurement for mass, though. Transformers have mass, so it's perfectly applicable, especially when you are trying to underscore the massiveness of the piece of equipment in question, rather than its functional capability. If the person writing the article/summary wanted to underscore the cost of the unit, he might have measured it in US dollars. That's what journalists do: describe things in terms their readers might understand or care about. And most of their readers aren't pedantic electrical engineers.
The System Works (Score:3, Informative)
They knew this was a hazard going in (temp rising), they talked about the possibility before the first trials and they successfully designed systems to shutdown before causing damage. This is just part of the sea trials of the particle pirate's new ship.
I don't really think CERN owe the media any favors (Score:5, Insightful)
Whilst I'm sure that is beneficial for CERN in the context that most people will be completely unaware on the day that full speed collisions are truly started, I do not for one moment think the media had that intention. A publicised failure would only serve to increase people's prejudice.
Is the speed of light slower near Lyons (Score:5, Funny)
After it was started up Sept. 10, scientists circled a beam of protons in a clockwise direction at the speed of light. They shut that down, then turned on a counterclockwise beam.
Now, accelerating a proton to the speed of light seems to me impossible, given that they are in a vacuum. But if they can do that, then the other interpretation is possible. It was the scientists who were circling at the speed of light, round say, a little beaker of protons. I'd like to commend whoever shut them down, then anti-beamed them to restore reality.
Re: (Score:2)
Only things with zero rest mass can reach the speed of light.
Protons have a rest mass (1.67261 x 10-24 grams ) which increases as velocity increases by the equation
m / sqrt(1 -(v^2/c^2))
From the equation you can see that as velocity increases towards c , the mass increases asymptotically.
If you use the same constant force to accelerate with, the rate of acceleration approaches zero as you approach c.
So if you're using particles with mass, you can never quite get to the speed of light. No doubt the LHC can a
Not News and News (Score:5, Insightful)
If you read TFA, you discover that it, but not the provided summary on /., says it was news to nobody in the field that something broke. What's not said here, but said in TFA and far more worthy of mention, is that they replaced it and were running again the next day, well before AP even inquired. Falling prey to the cheap journalistic gimmick of awfulism, are we?
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But without sensationalism and misrepresentation, what would we have to wring our hands over???
You want some really interesting discussion, hunt down gorilla199's youtube account. "Satan's stargate"... now THAT's entertainm...I mean information. ROFL...
Who put Homer Simpson in the power control room? (Score:2)
Who put Homer Simpson in the power control room?
Slashdot- your source for yellow (tech) journalism (Score:4, Insightful)
this is not a major failure
there is no sinister cover-up
no one was ever in any danger
Thanks for some more fear-mongering doomsday garbage "news" Slashdot. The purpose of editors, at least for non-tabloid news sources, is to filter factually inaccurate and inflammatory nonsense, not seek it out.
they deserve a break (Score:4, Funny)
I hope they recycle that copper (Score:2)
Copper is getting expensive enough these days without a 30 ton xformer blowing every time they turn that beast on. ;-/
LoB
What, did Fermilab make the transformer too? (Score:2)
Not to knock too hard on Fermilab, they do a lot of great work, it's just too funny that they screwed up on an important part for a rival's project. Uh, yeah, we, uh, can't believe we did that.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I know what they did wrong: (Score:2)
Overhead transformers to one-oh-five percent...
It's probably nothing... probably... but I'm seeing a small discrepancy in the readings...
look (Score:2)
i know michael bay is trying to get some good pr for transformers 2 next year, but there was no need to a stage a mock decepticon attack on a real human technological installation
why couldn't you leave the transformer devastation on the movie screen mr. bay? do you really think this will make people want to watch your movie?
Censorship! (Score:2)
It's Cosmic Censorship [wikipedia.org], man! A super intelligence from the future has come back to ensure the Large Hadron Collider can't create a naked singularity. OMG Xeelee!
Time travel (Score:5, Informative)
"A 30-ton transformer in the Large Hadron Collider malfunctioned, requiring complete replacement on the day the LHC came online."
This news must have traveled in time - because the LHC doesn't come online until sometime next summer. Right now, its in the middle stages of a months long startup and calibration sequence.
Not to mention that stuff breaks during the startup of complex machinery, doubly so for one of a kind complex machinery.
Anthropic Principle (Score:3, Insightful)
Everythings fine, just fine (Score:3, Funny)
LHC: Uh...had a slight transformer malfunction. But, uh, everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
AP: We're sending a squad up.
LHC: Uh, uh, negative. We had a reactor leak here now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Large leak...very dangerous.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, a great many of those kinds of problems happen during delivery and installation. Normally such transformers undergo certain tests during the installation. Many transformers also have their coolant added during installation. And it could have been damaged by one of those little black holes flying out at near light speed.