Scientists Discover Gene For Ruthlessness 300
Pioneer Woman writes "Researchers at Hebrew University in Jerusalem have found a link between a gene called AVPR1a and ruthless behavior. These findings come from an economic exercise called the 'Dictator Game' that allows players to behave selflessly, or like national dictators and 'little Hitlers' found in workplaces the world over. The team decided to look at AVPR1a because it is known to produce receptors in the brain that detect vasopressin, a hormone involved in 'prosocial' behavior. Researchers tested DNA samples from more than 200 student volunteers, before asking the students to play the game that measured their altruism. There was no connection between the participants' gender and their behavior but there was a link to the length of the AVPR1a gene."
Does this mean (Score:3, Funny)
Yes and mine is bigger than yours. (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Does this mean (Score:5, Funny)
BOsFH are not born.
They are spawned from the depths of Usenet. Which is kind of like Hell, only the flames last longer.
hmm (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:hmm (Score:5, Funny)
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http://xkcd.com/261/ [xkcd.com]
Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Instead of "Little Hitlers", they should have said "Little Napoleons". I wonder if overexpression of the AVPR1 gene also makes you seem short. That would explain a correlation between perceived height and incessant posturing, loud voices, and stomping around. That is to say, such behavior actually makes people seem shorter--I think it can actually take 2 to 3 inches off one's height. I've seen a 5'4" guy remark that a 5'5" guy had a Napolean's complex. I had to agree, the little Napolean that the 5'4" guy was referring to always seemed short while I never even thought about the 5'4" guy's height until that point (not a Little Napolean). But maybe we should cut Little Napoleans a break. Perhaps they can't help it, genetically speaking.
Re:hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
Really?
I think the Croatian police has some kind of regulation (I no longer know where I heard that) about uniformed cops saying male cops may not be shorter than 1.70 (5'8").
I know I do not recall seeing a male cop shorter than me.
I do know they have no regulations about female cop cup sizes, though. When they pinched my mobile phone some years ago, I went to report the theft... never did I want so much to be arrested, I tell you.
Ahem. Do carry on.
Can I have some? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Can I have some? (Score:4, Funny)
Dear Ruth,
"too much ruth" meant "Ruth, you're too fat."
Lose a couple hundred pounds and we'll talk.
Don't worry about that gene (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Don't worry about that gene (Score:4, Funny)
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Games != real life (Score:5, Insightful)
So why should ruthless behaviour in some game be linked to ruthlessness in life?
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When I'm gaming I'm different (Score:5, Interesting)
People modify their behavior, compassion, etc depending on context.
I'll help little old grannies across the road without mugging them, but when I play chess I'm ruthless. I will handle a fish that I've caught (catch and release) with great tenderness, but will wring a rabbit's neck or shoot a person if the situation demands.
One special forces person I knew a while ago shot up some real people, laid some landmines then later that day rolled his car swerving to miss a small animal on the road.
Re:When I'm gaming I'm different (Score:5, Funny)
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You just never know! Jimmy Carter came close [wikipedia.org].
Sometimes a hand grenade [wikipedia.org] is overkill.
It's coming right for us!
Re:When I'm gaming I'm different (Score:5, Funny)
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You are not a chess player, my friend.
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aaaanyway
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Cow is female, bull is male. Both are cattle, or bovine, whichever you prefer. Just because people use the name cow interchangeably doesn't make it correct.
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Nearly everyone in my immediate family farms and owns livestock. Calling a bull a cow to anyone dealing in livestock will cause some funny looks. People piss and moan on slashdot when a cracker is called a hacker by the media. It's no different.
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Games don't equal real life, but the way you play does say something about you at a fundamental level.
Let's see... at a fundamental level, it appears I would like to be a penguin (supertux). No wait, a penguin king (chess). In fact, a space-faring (kobodeluxe), italian, plumbing (mario) penguin king with a bow and a grappling hook (Zelda). Hey, that Ilia chick is hot. And I'd like laser blades on my arms (starcraft zealots), an army of skeletons (D2 necro), and a bunch of Japanese letters (kanatest).
That's how fucking cool I'm gonna' be.
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Certainly a high risk of harm to others gene really does put an odd slant on genetic testing. Think of all those sociopath corporate types who want genetic testing to exclude people from health insurance or employment, now they might
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what are you trying to suggest? that being a democrat means you have a large penis? making such suggestions is a sign of insecurity.
Re:Games != real life (Score:5, Interesting)
But if I were a dictator and had total control of my country, the repercussions for cracking down and killing thousands of people may not be so bad. First order of business: institute mandatory DNA registrations, checking every person for AVPR1a and killing all the other ruthless people.
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Besides, socially well adjusted people are cattle. Look at history. All change is wrought by those who could NOT adjust or eat their bowl of porridge as proscribed by the lords and masters.
And you just said it. Its fear of counter attacks or return violence that keeps violent people in check. Government has rarely successfully done this. If they start fucking with people's genes to try to "adjust" them to "society", I'm going to laugh. Nature will find a way, as it always has, an
Hitler would be proud of you (Score:2)
I am a gamer and I'll agree that games are not real life. But I must say, I wouldn't kill people in real life because there are repercussions. I can kill all the bad guys (or good guys if I feel like it) in a game and there are no REAL consequences. In real life, that's not so...so killing = bad.
But if I were a dictator and had total control of my country, the repercussions for cracking down and killing thousands of people may not be so bad. First order of business: institute mandatory DNA registrations, checking every person for AVPR1a and killing all the other ruthless people.
And so would Stalin, if you think that one gene is worth wiping out millions of lives.
Also, just because a person has the gene it doesnt mean their behavior will automatically be ruthless, it simply means being ruthless comes easier to them.
Anyone can be ruthless if the situation calls for it, just some people feel more natural in that state than others.
Re:Games != real life (Score:5, Insightful)
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There, fixed that for you. There have been a few notable exceptions.
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Re:Games != real life (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people who drink mother's milk are not going to kill real people.
There, fixed that for you. There have been a few notable exceptions.
Thats because you get life in prison (Score:2)
There, fixed that for you. There have been a few notable exceptions.
Your life has value precisely because of those consequences.
Re: Games != real life (Score:2)
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Somehow I don't buy it (Score:2)
AVPR? Did anyone else think of the movie? (Score:2)
Repeat after me (Score:3, Interesting)
Correlation is not causation. Among other things, the hormone they're claiming is involved is also linked to about a dozen other things- the wikipedia article linked to is a veritable laundry list of basic body functions.
Side memo to the press: Stop. Dumbing. Down. Science.
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But then it wouldn't be the press. Since when has scientific thinking had a place in mainstream journalism?
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I was thinking just that, but to say that ruthlessness can have an effect on a gene doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that the gene is the independent variable, and the behavior is a dependent variable. I'm not saying it's a direct causal relationship, as there are bound to be other factors at play here.
Re:Repeat after me (Score:5, Informative)
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Correlates strongly with +5 moderations... (Score:4, Insightful)
For instance Prarie Voles and Vasopressin [bbc.co.uk], in which by manipulating the Vasopressin V1a gene, males of a normally promiscuous species of Vole were rendered monagamous (and more attentive to their single mates). Only partially relevant, but suggestive.
Most importantly, it points at the possibility of producing directly relevant evidence in future experimental model (in which the species selected would be one that exhibits both "altruistic" and "ruthless" behaviors). I don't imagine such an experiment would be quick or cheap, as more socially sophisticated species tend to be more difficult to work with.
In any case, it sounds like your comment is directed at the particular news article (which mentions very little of the background), and not at the research in particular -- am I incorrect in drawing this distinction?
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another personality trait? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean the "Scientist discovers gene for [insert personality trait here]".
Some of these get pretty inane; ruthlessness, for example, is defined by behavior, and is subjective!
And don't forget: these studies are nearly meaningless, even if they are talking about something that can be defined rationally:
1. The study evaluates 'ruthlessness' based on subjects playing a game. (Not by observing reality)
2. The study involves 200 student volunteers. Not exactly a representative sample!
3. The article generalizes these dubious results to make inferences about the genetics of dictators.
4. The study has not yet been repeated to duplicate these results (A necessary step to 'prove' something)
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I'm smarter than my cats, and that's genetic. There will be a day when IQ can be adjusted genetically.
Some primates are social, some aren't - gorillas vs orangutans, and that's genetic. There will be a day when the need for social approval can be adjusted genetically.
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I demand that you cease this inflammatory specieist rhetoric immediately, or I will be forced to take extreme measures. It certainly would be a shame if your car were to explode the next time you hit the ignition, if you catch my drift.
Signed,
Yo
Haven't you heard of stem cell research? (Score:2)
OK. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Yes, intelligence, muscular structure, blue eyes, etc. are encoded in genes, but a difference in a certain gene does not simply turn on/off one specific trait or select between traits. Modify a gene and you mess with a whole bunch of stuff at once. That's why genetic science is so difficult.
I doubt it. You can't simply "adjust" something genetically. That's the whole misconception. We would have to learn to write genetic code ourselves, and we are a long way from that. All we can do is piece together what we have to try to make something happen, and we end up screwing it up more often than not. Reverse engineering genetic code is a much scarier challenge than reverse engineering Windows. (BTW, I know that there is work being done on this, see ReactOS [reactos.org])
The governments of the world have been researching how to do this for a while now. They've got it working in animals, just not humans.
That may or may not be true (Score:2)
Agreed. Genes do not "turn off/on" certain functions like a checkbox in a properties/preferences dialog. Genetic science can provide many wonderful things, but we will never be able to alter a gene to "make sure the baby is smart" or "keep him from being anti-social." As usual, the mainstream press sensationalizes science and contributes to the dumbing down already far advanced by public^Wgovernment education.
Agreed. Genes do not "turn off/on" certain functions like a checkbox in a properties/preferences dialog. Genetic science can provide many wonderful things, but we will never be able to alter a gene to "make sure the baby is smart" or "keep him from being anti-social." As usual, the mainstream press sensationalizes science and contributes to the dumbing down already far advanced by public^Wgovernment education.
We probably will discover the genes which control certain kinds of intelligence and will likely be able to activate or deactivate certain genes in a fetus. Designer babies are a reality even today.
The question is which set of genes to turn off or turn on. Right now we just don't know, and it's going to take a long time to find out.
So yeah, there will eventually be a way to make sure every baby is smart, or at least a way to prevent babies from being autistic or having down syndrome, and eventually we'll
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6. This study pinpoints a very specific gene, but ignores the most important criteria for winning money board games; cultural upbringing, personal experience, current education, and socio-economic class.
Making half-baked absolute generalizations about people's ingrained behaviors based on a gene is a very-very dangerous idea. It could be made to say anything the person (I won't say scientist) leading the study wants to believe.
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It might be simply that this particular genetic variation in combination with 27 others causes the person to be more likely to perceive of a situation in a given way, leading to ruthless behaviors. The fact remains that genetic variations are not understood well enough to say that gene XYZ causes such and such behavior.
More testing please (Score:4, Insightful)
Everything now is a disease (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Everything now is a disease (Score:5, Funny)
This from someone who lives in a country home to the world's worst health care system and highest incarceration rates.
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You seriously have to be joking. Never mind. That comment is really one of the more ignorant things I've ever read on Slashdot.
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This from someone who lives in a country home to the world's worst health care system and highest incarceration rates.
Well, the quality of any health care system depends on what you think is good. If by "good" you mean "I am able to obtain lots of medical care at trivial cost to myself", then the US is not that great. If, however, you mean something that keeps the nation's life expectancy high and in general allows for prompt, effective care, then I believe the US is well above average. Note that this is in very much line with GP's "personal responsibility" agenda.
I'm unsure about the GP's contention regarding psychologi
Truly Awful! (Score:3, Insightful)
I know, seriously. Stop sending your rich folk and government officials here for treatment, will 'ya?, they're tying up our beds.
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This from someone who lives in a country home to the world's worst health care system and highest incarceration rates.
The country that invents most cures for diseases in the world can hardly be claimed to have the worst health care system. And the highest incarceration rate must be considered in conjunction with the fact that we have the lowest crime rate in the free world (yeah, China and Saudi Arabia have a lower rate, but only because you can't do anything fun there). So we develop cures for the people who pay for it and keep in jail the people who commit crimes. Yeah, we all need shrinks cause we are crazy and anti
Don't you want your race based medicine? (Score:2)
This argues from an assumption that there is no personal responsibility for healthcare.
I don't want the government running my healthcare, thank you, they've managed to screw up international affairs, wireless communications, taxes, roads, telecommunications, and regulation of food so far...
Socialized medicine will likely lead to race based medicine. Just watch what happens, the same government that uses the census to ask you what your race is, will be collecting samples of your genes and begin making a medicine just for you and your kind.
race based medicine (Score:2)
Which disease? (Score:2)
What ever happened to personal responsibility? just about every vice in our society now is handled by psychologists instead of jail guards.
It's not that everything is a disease, the question is whether or not immorality is a disease.
When you say personal responsibility, you assume everyone is equally responsible, but if you want everyone to be equally responsible then the consequences have to be absolute and apply to everyone.
Currently they don't apply to everyone. There are people who can behave irresponsibly because they have the money to pay for their irresponsibility, and act above the law, and then there are poor people who have to be pe
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Understanding != excuse
As we understand the human brain more, personal responsibility shifts from blaming some magical soul and putting it truly on the person as an electrochemical system.
Although psychologists are a joke at least its a step in the right direction. Jails are the equivalent of fixing a TV by kicking it.
The gene name... (Score:3, Funny)
Godwin'd (Score:5, Funny)
"have found a link" is quite an overstatement (Score:2)
instead, we have wild speculation, an analogy with a different behaviour in a different species and a generalization that is not supported by what is described in the RTFA.
Great! (Score:2)
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Add this to..... (Score:2)
Now if they could find this one I'd be happy (Score:2)
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1) The gene that causes excessive stomach gas,
2) The gene that causes pyromania,
or
3) The gene that causes a small penis
If you find those genes genes, I belive you will find the answer to your question.
Psychopathy. (Score:4, Informative)
here's a story [news.com.au] about what I'd say is a very black & white likely case of psychopathy, and one at its worst, at least on a small scale.
The above link being pretty heavy, I thought I'd offer this lighter fare; A pseudo-scientific test [damninteresting.com] to measure yourself on the psychopath-meter.
If you're going to navigate your pathway through reality, (down the river of life), you need to know where the rocks are if you're going to be able to avoid crashing into them. Christianity and the like has programmed all kinds of self-destructive behavior into human-kind. "Turn the other cheek" is an example of social programming which makes us food for the psychopathic human-type, --the type which I would guess is generally in charge of countries and most of the most powerful organizations which shape our lives; the psychopath recognizes its own and shapes the rules of the world to benefit itself, and study of the power structures over the centuries, doesn't really ever let go once the seat of power is attained. --Christ's supposed dying on the cross, (which I am doubtful actually happened for a variety of reasons, not the l
doesn't seem like a plausible experiment (Score:2)
If true, this explains a stereotype (Score:4, Interesting)
If the findings of this study are true, they may help explain the stereotype of the aggressive, ruthless management-type-figure with bulging neck veins suffering from a heart attack.
So once we find the gene for... (Score:3, Funny)
Managemant Screening (Score:2)
I can see companies putting all the PHB wanna-bees through a genetic screening process to weed out undesirable personality traits.
I wonder if they'll ever find the gene that increases managers' ability to hang from the ceiling by their lips.
Does anyone remember the TV show "The Mole" (Score:2)
Already discovered in the 80's. (Score:2)
The gene for ruthlessness, aka the "mean gene" has been known since the early 1980's.
Full story here. [wikipedia.org]
Re:oh the irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh the irony (Score:4, Interesting)
Genetics is truly a double-edged sword. Just deciding that some gene needs to be "fixed" brings a value judgement with it. And that same little hop to deciding one person is better than another.
Hopefully it only gets as extreme as wanting to help fix other people's genes instead of exterminate them.
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Certainly we need to be cautious and discuss these sorts of issues as we advance our knowledge of biology and th
Who ever said exterminate? (Score:3, Insightful)
The rub is that people really are genetically different. While understanding differences is important to understanding how and why people respond differently to different medications, etc., it's just a little bitty hop to start deciding one person is "better" than another based on genetics.
Genetics is truly a double-edged sword. Just deciding that some gene needs to be "fixed" brings a value judgement with it. And that same little hop to deciding one person is better than another.
Hopefully it only gets as extreme as wanting to help fix other people's genes instead of exterminate them.
Where do you people jump to the conclusion that they want to exterminate people?
So you are saying if the gay gene, or the gene for black skin is discovered, that the evil scientists will want to exterminate them?
Ridiculous. If these people want to exterminate the bad genes, they'll do it with race based medicine, and I don't see enough people being concerned about that or the potential for genocide, because the majority of people probably secretly support genocide of some other group as long as it's not th
Re:Who ever said exterminate? (Score:5, Interesting)
As long as it's something you do to yourself, it'd be morally sound. Case in point: Tatts, piercing, sex-change ops, etc.
When it becomes something you force upon others without their consent, well, that's when morals and ethics fly out the window and Hitler starts being mentioned. It'd be just as bad if some were to PREVENT gene-therapy from others against the other's will as it would to apply it against their will.
Let's say they do identify the gene for being gay, being black, having a vagina, being bi-symmetrical or that gives you herpes. And let's say that we'll get the genetic toolbox to add and/or eliminate genes from our system.
What's wrong with people fiddling around with themselves? How is it fundamentally different from what we already have today?
Who are we to say that the knowledge of what (stemming from research such as this) and how (the genetic toolbox) are immoral for someone to use on themselves?
Any progress towards either the what or the how is good. The more we know, the sooner we can start changing shit in our bodies we don't like and can't already tackle.
Not really (Score:2)
Because eventually the different families within your race will decide to exterminate you.
Re:oh the irony (Score:5, Insightful)
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How's that ironic? The Ashkenazi have been selecting (the purposefulness is debated) for intelligence for quite a long time, and are now generally more intelligent on average than the average humnan. It's speculated [nytimes.com] that this is tied up with their higher than average proportion of genetic diseases.
They've been recently using outright eugenics [blogspot.com] to eliminate their genetic diseases. Whether this has a negative pressure on their intelligence curve r
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Every group does it (Score:2)
Every group directs it's reproduction, and we call it evolution. It's not a big deal to me, but thats not the same as "exterminating" the other races.
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