Student Refusing RFID Badge Now Fights Expulsion Order 743
BeatTheChip writes "Lawyers representing Andrea Hernandez, a science and engineering student at John Jay High School, are fighting an expulsion notice issued a week ago for refusing to wear a Smart ID badge. To represent her, lawyers filed a preliminary court injunction, seeking legal restraints on the school. She maintains stance of refusal to wear any badge containing an RFID tag for reasons of basic privacy and conflicts with her belief system. The controversial decision for her school to adopt the NFC badges is part of the Student Locator Project, tracking attendance. Local schools started issuing the lanyard badges this fall despite parental outcry at NISD school board meetings."
Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
So she can be marked as absent when she's actually in school? Great solution. Better to pursue the lawsuit.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Why not skip school and have a friend carry her ID around... is that so hard for teachers to actually take attendance? Social problems CANNOT be solved with technology solutions... such as voting machines.
Which is what's going to happen. Wasn't this tried and immediately the kids had a system where one kid would swipe your card for you for $5?
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Interesting)
Wasn't this tried and immediately the kids had a system where one kid would swipe your card for you for $5?
"(11) Every old idea will be proposed again with a different name and a different presentation, regardless of whether it works."
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not act like any sane university, and mark people based on their demonstrated ability with the subject, rather than their attendance.
University in the UK, and originally was based on the idea that the information would be provided, and the students would be put near it. Whether, and how one got into the other was entirely up to the student.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
Because this isn't a university. It's a high school, which means the child is basically forced by law to attend each day and is treated as property.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the school gets paid if you are there, they do not get paid if you are not. They don't give a damn if you know much (as long as you don't fail too bad), they just want your warm body for a state paycheck.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
I can see two outcomes...
- One kid left in class, carrying 20 badges...
- Kids swap badges constantly, rendering the system useless...
s'fun!
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
But tey don't CLAIM to be using it for class to class attendance. Fry it, then wear it around.... Staff is probably more concerned because it IS a "security risk" to have people running around that don't belong. My local high school had an issue with a 20-something lurking around and ended up in the girls' locker room. Since then, everybody without a lanyard getsstopped and questioned by ANY faculty roaming the halls... Not just "hall monitors".
As an IT person, I'm plain skeptical about the tracking stuff anyway. I'd be 100% certain that nobody in IT is watching this, and nobody in security is watching either. They might have a screen with the little dots moving around, they might pull reports... I doubt the accuracy of any place not staffing 2-3 full time staff on this.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
So we have a technological solution that identifies that people who are supposed to be there either are or aren't there, but it doesn't do anything about the problem you say is the bigger problem. Obviously, this solution doesn't help until we embed a chip in EVERYBODY, and then if people who aren't supposed to be there are found, they can be intercepted. In the long run, that is probably what they are looking to do.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Interesting)
I ditched with a friend in high school and went to a different school to visit his girlfriend. We were just going to sneak in and eat lunch with her. The school had over 2000 kids in it, and we made sure to arrive in between classes so there were kids walking around all over the place. We didnt even get in the front door before we got questioned. Somehow a teacher knew that we didnt go to that school.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Funny)
I ditched with a friend in high school and went to a different school to visit his girlfriend. We were just going to sneak in and eat lunch with her. The school had over 2000 kids in it, and we made sure to arrive in between classes so there were kids walking around all over the place. We didnt even get in the front door before we got questioned. Somehow a teacher knew that we didnt go to that school.
Let me guess: the girlfriend went to a girls-only school.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Easily disputable. If/when someone comes to find her in class, they will find her. Who is to say a malfunctioning badge was intentional or not?
Nope. Attendance tracked by badge only, so if it shows she wasn't in class, she wasn't in class. Data don't lie, bitches. Right? (note to Troll Mods- that's sarcasm)
Now, as for the actual issue at hand, this is a public school so it's a little different than a private business or school requiring them. I'm not sure how the State's privacy laws work, but it's probably a stretch to make this stick unless they have something specifically written in to guarantee such protections. When I was a kid, we took attendance at the start of each class, the teacher called each student by name and they answered "here" or there was just silence, so from that point of view we've never really had any "privacy" in that regard. If you wanted to go to the bathroom during class, you had to get permission. At any time, for any reason, any teacher could ask why you were where you were, what you were doing, and you were required to give an explanation. They could follow you around if they wanted, and courts have already said that using CCTV cameras in the halls, etc. doesn't violate any privacy expectations (exception- inside of the locker room and bathrooms).
As for "conflicts with her belief system" she can just fuck right off with that. You don't get to be excused from policies, laws, regulations, etc. just because they "offend your belief system".
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that you do. And if "my goofy magic man in the sky is the reason I can't do this" than ANY belief system should be acceptable for saying you can't do something or must do something.I derive my belief system from logic and from myself. My belief that I have a right to privacy and to not be tracked like cattle is at the very least as valid as someone else's belief that they can never be forced to work one day a week because magic man in sky say "no way".
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, there is no freedom of logic in the constitution. Rationalists actually have less rights than the religious in the US.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Informative)
No, actually it takes centuries. e.g. American Indians are able to legally collect and consume peyote as part of religious ceremonies, because they've been doing it for centuries. No matter how sincere or deeply felt your religious beliefs, they're not going to let you do the same.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
As for "conflicts with her belief system" she can just fuck right off with that. You don't get to be excused from policies, laws, regulations, etc. just because they "offend your belief system".
Actually, you do in a lot of cases (conscientious objectors are one example, some religions are actually exempt from taxation in another). You ever heard of the first amendment? Let me remind you of the first sentence: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" The amendment is not just about free speech, you know.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Funny)
You still carry the mark of the beast with you. Even though it would be unreadable :).
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Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
I was thinking of a tinfoil pouch for it. No need to destroy it; just make it readable only when you allow for it to be read. Willingly destroying the chip may have other legal implications (the badge may be property of the institution) - and anyway they're likely to issue a new one when one is found faulty.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
Destroy badge, get expelled for destruction of school property.
Almost... try "_Get caught_ destroying badge, get expelled for destruction of school property."
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Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Interesting)
It won't open any doors then.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Funny)
The number of doors a solid educational background can open up for you in life are uncountable
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be better to just leave it in her locker and always be at school?
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Talk about Gestapo tactics
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So the lesson to be learned is one of conformity then?
Isn't that what school is? Conform to what we want you to know? And someone please explain what expectation of privacy a child should have on public property. Does she complain about security cameras too? What is she going to do when she graduates and she has to swipe a badge to get into work or her work PC requires her login? Unless she plans on flipping burgers she better get use to badges and logins.
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So the lesson to be learned is one of conformity then?
Isn't that what school is? Conform to what we want you to know? And someone please explain what expectation of privacy a child should have on public property. Does she complain about security cameras too? What is she going to do when she graduates and she has to swipe a badge to get into work or her work PC requires her login? Unless she plans on flipping burgers she better get use to badges and logins.
School is partly about conforming. And about growing up, and going your own way. It won't take long before parents can login to the school camera system and see what they do all the time. That might seem innocent and useful for a one year old, but not for teenagers.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless she plans on flipping burgers she better get use to badges and logins.
Even that won't work. Every fast food joint I've ever been in requires the employees to wear name tags.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Seeing as you have no expectation of privacy, you won't mind when I search your asshole for contraband the next time you're on public property.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't that what school is? Conform to what we want you to know?
In theory, the purpose of a public school system is to benefit the public and to break aristocracies (whose power is often maintained by a continued and exclusive access to quality education). In practice, the purpose of school is to babysit children while their parents are out working, because in today's world it is too dangerous for children to run wild in the streets (according to some). Brainwashing and teaching conformity are just unintended consequences of poorly thought out policies by the sort of bureaucrats who think scantron forms are a way to measure student aptitude (don't kid yourself: the people who are paid to educate children are not clever enough to develop a grand strategy for brainwashing them, and neither are the major party politicians who control school budgets; metal detectors, surveillance cameras, bars over the windows, etc. are just easy and lawyer-friendly ways to address the symptoms of broader problems).
And someone please explain what expectation of privacy a child should have on public property
How about the right to go to the bathroom without being watched?
Does she complain about security cameras too?
I would have. Considering that at my high school, holding a blank postboard in front of a security camera resulted in the guards running to the camera to see what was happening, while an actual fistfight (a rarity at my high school) didn't result in guards coming at all, it is pretty clear that the cameras have nothing to do with student safety (and neither do the guards).
Unless she plans on flipping burgers she better get use to badges and logins.
Or, people could learn to stand up for themselves and fight back against these sorts of things. I am a graduate student, and when my department was moved into a new building where our student ID cards were used as keys to our offices, and our doors could not be propped open without horribly loud alarms going off, we fought back. Eventually we got a compromise -- we could prop open our doors 9-5 on weekdays, so only the first person to come to the office would have to swipe in.
There is a broader problem here, and your response is a symptom of it: people have no desire to stand up for themselves, and they just let themselves get trampled by this sort of thing. This is where we come full circle, of course, since school is where people learn to be trampled -- unless they are wealthy and go to a school that teaches them how to trample others. So really, our public education system is failing to meet the goals it was originally created for (but we are too busy complaining about the UFT and about test scores to even notice that).
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Insightful)
And someone please explain what expectation of privacy a child should have on public property.
Er ... you meant "what kind of privacy-negating activity can a child be forced to do when she's on public property that she's legally require to be on", right? This isn't someone choosing to go to a park and then complaining that she's in the background of someone else's photo. This is someone legally compelled to go somewhere, and then you suggesting that because she's there (as required!) that she's given up a right.
What is she going to do when she graduates and she has to swipe a badge to get into work or her work PC requires her login?
She's going to be legally required to work for a corporation? Next you'll tell me that there are no small businesses or farms left nor any chance to start one, no stay-at-home spouses, no trust-fund babies, ...
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Read the letter linked from infowars:
http://static.infowars.com/2012/11/i/general/Hernandez_RFID-ID-john_jay_letter.jpg [infowars.com]
"In the event that you change your stance on wearing the ID with the battery and chip removed as has been offered to you on two occasions, we will be more than willing to rescind this withdrawal notice."
That seems reasonable, except for the fact that she was also told her original pre-RFID card would be valid for all 4 years she was enrolled at the school.
Everything aside, the zero tolerance policies that most school administrators (officially or unofficially) adopt is an injustice all its own.
Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (Score:5, Informative)
Read the letter linked from infowars:
"In the event that you change your stance on wearing the ID with the battery and chip removed as has been offered to you on two occasions, we will be more than willing to rescind this withdrawal notice."
"In response to public outcry and pressure from rights groups, the school has offered to remove the battery and chip, but wouldn’t budge on mandating the ID. Their offer would also require the Hernandez family to end their criticism and agree to comply with and even tout the policy,"
On the condition that her and her father say the sh*t sandwich tastes great and everyone should try some. It seems you left the most important part out.
RTFA (Score:3, Informative)
She was offered a badge without an RFID chip in it. She refuses to wear a badge of any sort.
Re:RTFA (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:RTFA (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that the Nazis only forced the Jews to wear the Star of David so that they could be more easily singled out and oppressed. It is very different when everyone has to have the ID card. If you do not have a visible school ID card then you shouldn't be there. It happens every day in most secure businesses and no one complains. Why should a school be any less secure than your office?
Her refusal is based on an interpretation of the Bible. Is she never going to carry ID? I guess she win't be driving, joining a club, getting a job or leaving the country. All of these require carrying a numbered card which she refuses to do.
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
If you do not have a visible school ID card then you shouldn't be there. It happens every day in most secure businesses and no one complains. Why should a school be any less secure than your office?
You have a choice where to work and what conditions you accept in return for your salary. And this is the government doing it and withholding your education if you refuse. And what does this have to do with "security"? It's just about simplifying taking the roll call so the school can collect the per diem from the government. It's not for the students' benefit.
The school could simply make it optional. Anyone who opted out could just sign a roll at the door or be counted absent. 99% of students would use RFID to avoid the hassle, so the overhead would be trivial.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Business that require visible ID at all time tends to be in the sectors that screw up real bad (financial sector).
Every provincial employee in British Columbia is required to display an ID badge while at the office. Most of them have nothing to do with finances.
Plus getting all kids to accept real-time tracking can be a precursor to a full-fledge police state Joseph Stalin would be jealous of.
And it might not be. It might actually be a way of easily identifying the kids who should not be at the school. They are usually the ones causing trouble like selling drugs on campus. Like many "slippery slope" arguments this one ignores the good that can occur today, identifying who are students and cutting costs, due to the bad that may or may not happen in t
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Business that require visible ID at all time tends to be in the sectors that screw up real bad (financial sector). Why is this a good example? Plus getting all kids to accept real-time tracking can be a precursor to a full-fledge police state Joseph Stalin would be jealous of. I am SO glad metal detactors and chip tracking students are not implemented in my country.
And government and insurance and engineering and security and... actually, I don't think I've ever had a job where I didn't have a badge, at least after college. Last job I had without an ID badge was flipping burgers in high school
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Funny)
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
USSA (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it has to do with degrees of removal from reality.
When there's a realistic system in place, people go along with it because it makes sense.
When there's not a realistic system, there's usually an "ideology" used to compel people to obey.
This drifts farther and farther away from reality and as a result, the state uses more control on its citizens.
They in turn react passively by being less productive and more corrupt.
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
But it's not quite that simple:
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Funny)
The Evil Brothers
There were two evil brothers who were rich and used their money to hide their ways from the public eye. They even attended the same church and looked to be perfect Christians.
Then, their pastor retired, and a new one was hired. Not only could he see right through the brothers' deception, but he also spoke well and true, and the church started to swell in numbers. A fundraising campaign was started to build a new assembly.
All of the sudden, one of the brothers died. The surviving brother sought out the new pastor the day before the funeral and handed him a check for the amount needed to finish paying for the new building.
"I have only one condition," he said. "At his funeral, you must say my brother was a saint." The pastor gave his word and deposited the check.
The next day, at the funeral, the pastor did not hold back. "He was an evil man," he said. "He cheated on his wife and abused his family." He went on in this vein for a small time, and the surviving brother was clearly fuming in his seat.
"But," the pastor concluded, "compared to his brother, he was a saint!"
Get homeshcooled (Score:4, Insightful)
The school has a right to watch its costs and protect their students. If not then the lawyers will go after them for not using RFID yada yada.
For someone who works in the education system, I have to say the reason for this is money. The budgets are set on enrolled students. Not paper enrolled but physically enrolled each day. If a poor inner city school has a 20% truancy problem, then the budget is cut 20% and the teachers are fired.
I am more upset at the lawyers who are costing teachers jobs and I doubt their parents are in it for their child. They have a free lottery ticket at someone elses expense. Perhaps if parents were not so sue happy American schools could successful compete with Asian and European counterparts.
Schools have a right to enforce a learning environment as oppressive as some of the highschool slashdotters readers who want to say otherwise. At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school. These are not implanted chips or anything and with drug dealers, pedophiles, and other problems it is not a bad idea to track where each student is.
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
It is a public school. School has only the rights the public allows it to. If the people are opposed to RFID tracking of their kids, the school has just lost their right to track them.
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I think he just got confused with public pool.
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Schools have a right to enforce a learning environment as oppressive as some of the highschool slashdotters readers who want to say otherwise. At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school. These are not implanted chips or anything and with drug dealers, pedophiles, and other problems it is not a bad idea to track where each student is.
You're reasoning this the wrong way around. Is your boss tracking you with an RFID chip? Would you like it if he did? I guess not, so why would schools be allowed to do this? Also, your "but think of the children!!" reasoning is a little bollocks as well. The school should make sure drug dealers, pedophiles and "other problems" don't get onto school property. If a school feels it's necessary to track students to protect them from those kinds of problems while they're at the school grounds, then the school i
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Interesting)
>I doubt that this system here is much different from clocking in to the lessons.
It's massively different. Do you know why ?
Because you are PAID to be at work, while you (or your parents but it amounts to the same thing) PAY to go to school.
The roles of authority are in fact, exactly, reversed. A school is there to serve YOUR need to get an education. We allow them to institute a measure of discipline so that one selfish kid cannot interfere with the other kids wanting the same. But this is no different than a shop putting up a "one per customer" sign on a special, they are merely protecting the rights of their OTHER customers.
But the school is the CUSTOMER here, moreso - they are a STATE customer paid for by TAX money - that makes them public SERVANTS.
They're duty is to give children the education their parents WANT - never the other way around.
Do you get why this is different?
Allowing your schools to make a rule that intrudes on religious freedom (whether or not you agree with the religion or it's interpretation of the rule is NOT in fact relevant) is NO different from allowing the president to ban the practise of Islam.
That's what this is like. An employer is well within his rights to decree that a Muslim wanting to do Friday prayers must put in leave for it if it falls during business hours - and this is why many muslims prefer to work for other muslims (who won't make a rule like that but would rather close the shop) . That's fine because it's a voluntary choice to work for THIS employer and he is paying you for your time and obedience.
The school is not paying her by mutually agreed contractual consent for HER obedience. She is paying THEM to teach her - and the limits to their making of rules ENDS at "is needed to ensure that she does not disrupt the education of OTHER paying customers".
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
Very good post by the way!
I just wanted to point out one minor correction:
They're duty is to give children the education their parents WANT - never the other way around.
Actually their duty is to provide children with the education that society wants, not the parents.
This is why a basic level of education is required by law, because without it not only is that individual harmed, but more so because society is harmed. Any additional education beyond high school is not required (and in fact can be quite expensive to obtain!)
This is also why society deemed it essential to even pay for this basic level of education, by using tax dollars to provide it.
Even home schooling is not exempt from this, although is a lot closer to it.
Home schooling still requires a basic level of education that society wants, in addition to the education the parents may also want.
If a home schooled child is not given that basic level of education, it is not much different from simply refusing to send your child to school at all. Society even removes children from parents who refuse to provide this basic level of education, deeming it causing harm to the child as well as society.
Releasing a bunch of new young adults into society who can not read, write, or do basic math for example would be a huge drain on society, would not be productive in any form, and would cost the rest of us more money to support them since they would be incapable of doing so themselves.
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
She EARNED the right ot be in this high performance school through having BEEN a high performing student.
The "other school" cannot offer her an equivalent education (notably the maths and science plan).
They also didn't OFFER her another school - they are trying to forcibly MOVE her to one. That's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Still, no point arguing with somebody who can't even read.
Re: (Score:3)
A school shouldn't limit their pupil's freedoms? Are you fucking kidding me?
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
I am more upset at the lawyers who are costing teachers jobs and I doubt their parents are in it for their child. They have a free lottery ticket at someone elses expense. Perhaps if parents were not so sue happy American schools could successful compete with Asian and European counterparts.
Lol wut?
You seem to be ignoring important cultural factors when it comes to lawsuits.
Asia and Europe are polar opposites when it comes to litigation.
In Asia, almost nobody sues because they have a cultural aversion to litigation and the court systems are fucked.
In Europe, lawsuits are less common because the public supports strong government regulatory bodies that ultimately limit the need for people to sue.
In the good old US of A, every sues because the libertarians/conservatives think regulation is bad and civil lawsuits are the solution.
As a bonus, those same libertarians/conservatives want tort reform because all those civil lawsuits are expensive.
At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school.
School is not voluntary. Work is.
Homeschooling, while good/bad, isn't an option for everyone.
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Sorry, but raising a generation of children that agreeably comply to carry a tracking device, is a popcorn fart away from creating a society where our government requires each and every one of us to carry a tracking device. Imaging the up side. No Crime goes unpunished, almost instantly. Nobody ever get's lost. You can find almost anybody for a price. You can manage traffic, and human resource requirement to a person.
Of course the government always knows where you are, what you're doing, what you're saying.
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Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:4, Interesting)
As a school employee we took turns patrolling the lots looking for passengers masturbating in their cars right outside the school everyday as well as flashers. Yes it really is an epidemic. Sadly we can't do anything outside school grounds.
You have a choice to be home schooled if you do not like it. Another choice is take the GED test and graduate early. Many districts have alternative schools too. You do have options and I know my post might have set off a few nerves.
If you become a teacher your opinion will drastically change with the amount of disrespect and the pressure to have those test scores up to keep your job. Only teachers who have been there for awhile get tenured contrary to what they say on Fox News.
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no doubt some administrator somehwere told someone to go patrol for perverts. I seriously doubt anyone found one, and I'm sure it isn't an epidemic. And I'm even more sure that society would sit idly by if you DID find a masturbating pervert in his/her car. Cops dream of such an easy, high-profile bust.
And I don't give a shit how long you've been on the job. Tenure is bullshit. It's academic castlebuilding paid for by others.
have those test scores up to keep your job
I haven't had a job YET that I didn't have to prove I was worth a shit. Teachers somehow got a pass on that. But don't worry, the teachers will simply redefine the metric until all that is tested is anti-bullying policy questions and self esteem.
Bill Clinton: Thank you, Lisa, for teaching kids everywhere a valuable lesson: If things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.
Marge: That's a pretty lousy lesson.
Bill Clinton: Hey, I'm a pretty lousy president.
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually tenure is meant to protect teachers who tell unpopular truths. For example, that the Earth is >4 billion years old.
A few parents may scream bloody murder and the administrator might prefer a teacher that doesn't get him yelled at so often.
Tenure has it's problems, but I think I prefer science teachers that are hard to shut up.
Re:Get homeshcooled (Score:5, Insightful)
I just told you I have seen men stalk and masturbate to children walking by with my own eyes! I was prohibited to report it as it would open the school to liability as a lawyer could then argue the schools responsibility for safety now includes the entire walk home and we would be liable for every infraction afterwards etc. My job was to report their ass as soon as any body part touched school property. Pedis are always trying to volunteer or get involved with the school.
Has no one in your school heard of anonymous phone calls? These are things that could make or break DA's, police chief's, hell even politician's careers. Hell, the FBI would be glad to come down and investigate based on your anonymous tip. You seriously expect us you believe this is widespread and nothing is being done? Can I have whatever you are smoking?
Dear Andrea, (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dear Andrea, (Score:4, Interesting)
Schools shouldn't be allowed to track children everywhere they go. But since they are charged with the education and well-being of these kids for a certain portion of the day, is it unreasonable that they ask children (and others) to carry an RFID card while on the premises? I fail to see what principle of freedom or privacy is violated by the requirement to carry an ID card (with or without a chip) at school.
RFID = The Mark of Beast? (Score:4, Informative)
For many Christian families, including the Hernandez’, the mandatory policy is eerily close to the predictions of Revelations 13: 16-18, which warns of the Mark of the Beast:
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[a] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. (New King James Version)
Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (Score:5, Funny)
"Him who has understanding" - programmers?
"calculate the number of the beast" - programmers.
"for it is the number of a man" - primary key
"His number is 666" - SELECT * FROM PEOPLE WHERE ID=666;
Re: (Score:3)
It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to be tracked (political, religious, whatever), it's important that schools aren't used as "conformance camps". Schools are there to educate students and that is all they should be doing. Attendance tags are not in any way essential to teaching. (I personally think that mandatory dress codes are beyond their remit as well).
Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (Score:5, Insightful)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Yep, looks like she's standing up for her 1st amendment rights.
The school also wanted her parents to sign an agreement stating they would publicly support the program.
The parents refused, which sounds like they are standing up for another 1st amendment right..
Re: (Score:3)
Is that the line of reasoning here? Fine. Now replace "a badge" with "pants".
Privacy and belief (Score:5, Insightful)
"for reasons of basic privacy and conflicts with her belief system"
I agree with half of her case.
But someone's "belief system" shouldn't exempt them from following the rules and laws of the land. Otherwise pedo Mormons could marry 13 year-olds, hardcore Muslims could keep their female children out of schools, and fundie Christians could stalk those who are having abortions.
You should oppose a rule because it is wrong for the population, not because it conflicts with your belief system.
Re: (Score:3)
The basic privacy is moot because she was offered a card without an RFID chip.
Re:Privacy and belief (Score:5, Insightful)
But someone's "belief system" shouldn't exempt them from following the rules and laws of the land. Otherwise pedo Mormons could marry 13 year-olds, hardcore Muslims could keep their female children out of schools, and fundie Christians could stalk those who are having abortions.
Your first statement is flat out wrong and your second is a fallacious slippery slope argument.
We don't force conscientious objectors to serve in the military.
We don't force religious parents to vaccinate their children.
We don't even force the Amish to pay Social Security or Medicare taxes.
About the only time we do force people to violate their belief systems is when it involves safety or imminent health issues.
Your pedo mormon and fundie christian examples fall under the safety umbrella and If fundie Muslims wants to keep their female children out of school, they are welcome to do so, as long as they file the appropriate notice of intent to homeschool and get an education plan approved.
I just don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)
Every job I've had since graduation in '99 has come with the requirement of an RFID tag either as a key fob or in my ID. I wore it with no question because otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to open any doors.
And the problem is... (Score:3, Insightful)
She should lose (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone whose brings "against my belief system" to a court of law and expects special consideration because of that should lose.
NFC? (Score:4, Informative)
Student Refusing RFID Badge
refusal to wear any badge containing an RFID tag
school to adopt the NFC badges
One of these things is not like the other.
School offered to let her wear a disabled ID (Score:3, Informative)
The school letter says that they offered her the opportunity to wear an ID with the "battery and chip removed" on two occasions and she refused.
So this isn't about RFID, it's about wearing ID.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
School is an exception (Score:5, Insightful)
Technological "invasion" of privacy is not a problem when it simply augments what is already in place physically, i.e., I have no problem with security cameras at a bank, because it is a public area which you enter with the expectation of it being fully monitored and guarded at all times, regardless of whether a camera system is installed. Adding a camera system does not fundamentally impact your expectation of privacy at a bank. I *do* have a problem with sticking cameras on every telephone poll in the city. I expect police to patrol the streets, and give periodic checkups on how things are going, but monitoring every nook and cranny simultaneously and being able to follow my movements camera-to-camera is a gross change and significant limiting of my normal expectation of privacy.
In this case, the girl is minor for whom the school is assuming responsibility during school hours and it is *expected* that they will be supervising her at all times. If teachers don't know where she is or what she is doing at any time during her stay that is indicative of negligence on their part, regardless of whether an RFID monitoring system is in place. So, as long as an uncovered and functional RFID tag is something she is only required to carry on school grounds, and she can put it in a foil sheath before and after, I do not have a big problem with the school adding some automation to what is already a comparable level of physical monitoring.
I'm not saying there aren't some slippery slopes to be vigilant against, but as it's been described, I don't think she is losing much if any privacy by using the school ID card.
Just Overblown (Score:4, Insightful)
After reading the article, I can't find any issues here that can really be raised for a minor in school, that the school is responsible for, that is essentially any different than the school id I had 20 years ago. In the article, it even states the school offered to remove the RFID functionality so that the picture / barcode was left. Even then, wtf, its RFID, not GPS. It's not going to track her location at home and even then, the school isn't telling her to never take it off outside of school hours.
Just more random thoughts:
1) Just like my id from 20 years ago, we had to scan in the mornings for school for attendance which actually made it more efficient for school admins to get a quick idea of who wasn't there and contact parents quickly. The other option is having teachers do it manually, typing into system, and wasting their time.
2) She's a minor that during school hours, the school is responsible for. More power if the school during those hours has a way to keep track of students on property (or lack of being on property) in a more secure way. I bet if for some reason she snuck off and something happened, these parents would be suing for neglecting to keep track of their kid during school hours.
3) If this is such a huge issue, why aren't people going bat shit crazy having to wear their work ids, which most have barcodes, pictures, and rfids these days. Really no difference here people. Wear to work / school, both track you entering and leaving, then that is it.
4) Their reasoning for religious is pure bs. My kid shouldn't wear a badge with the picture during school hours is the mark of the beast. Can you reach any harder for non sense. Again, lots of people for work do the same thing.
Does The System Connect To The 'Net? (Score:3)
This system very likely is networked with the entire school district so as to collect total attendance numbers for the district.
Considering the average level of network security that exists in most public school system IT departments (ie pwn-able by a savvy 12-yo), this looks like "Easy Internet Shopping For Pedophiles" as they can confirm their targets' location and schedule. And/or, they can snatch a kid, then just insert fake card-swipe data events to mimic the kid being at school and not chained to a wall somewhere. "Little Suzy has perfect school attendance, although nobody has seen her for months..."
Strat
Re:Does The System Connect To The 'Net? (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering the average level of network security that exists in most public school system IT departments (ie pwn-able by a savvy 12-yo), this looks like "Easy Internet Shopping For Pedophiles" as they can confirm their targets' location and schedule.
Given that a child is more likely to die getting to school than getting kidnapped by a pedo (by multiple orders of magnitude), I think that such considerations are insane to consider. There are more reports of people kidnapped by aliens and sexually assaulted than children kidnapped by pedos. Stastically, it just doesn't happen. You are more than 10,000 times more likely to be molested by a family member or kidnapped by a family member or killed by a family member than a stranger kidnapping by a pedo.
Why oh why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people insist on technological solutions for problems that don't need them?
Voting machines - pointless; the number of volunteers or local government workers that can be drafted for a day scales with the size of the population.
RFID badges for students to track attendance? Don't kid these days spend their lesson in front of a teacher, who could check attendance manually in about 30 seconds....like they have always done. I mean, what problems are they trying to solve?
RFID vs NFC (Score:4, Informative)
Infowars? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Property Rights (Score:5, Insightful)
However, students do not voluntarily enter school. They are required by law to be there. Requiring students to give up rights because they entered your property, when you forced them to enter the property, isn't fair.
But students are minors and are not granted the same rights as adults because they aren't as capable of accepting responsibility as adults. If some rights need to be restricted to maintain order - like drug sniffing dogs being allowed to check lockers without a warrent - then so be it but we should try not to over do it. This RFID thing is over doing it.
Re: (Score:3)
How is it different than using such a lanyard to enter your office at work?
First, you are not required to get at an office that requires you to wear a lanyard. You can work independently or choose a different company or you can choose to do nothing (you'll starve, but no one will bother you while you do it).
Second, lanyards don't always contain RFID. A badge only tells those you meet who you are and where you are. RFID can allows the government to track your every move. It's the difference between having a license plate on your car and having a tracking device installed on
Re:Property Rights (Score:4, Insightful)
This slashdotter thinks you shouldn't let your SO represent you in any legal matters ;-)
The owner (or renter) of the property is not at issue here. If, say, your state had a requirement that all students had to complete 100 hours of community service to graduate, and that they had to wear an RFID tag while doing that service work, it would be exactly the same situation wherever the community service took place.
The issue is the extent to which a public school system can enforce the surrender of some of your privacy and freedoms. Your child must attend a school or be homeschooled, and for almost all families the only option that makes sense is to enroll your child in the public school suggested / mandated by the school board. Given that we, the people, have decided that you are all but required by law to send your children to this school, we the people are well advised to tread extremely carefully in reducing the rights of you and your child any further. Whether this case is an acceptable infringement is up for debate, and the argument needs to include a review of the benefits to individual students, the collective student body and the school administration. Personally I doubt it would pass my internal bar for acceptable, but I haven't heard all the arguments.
Good post (Score:3)
Also, what has happened to English teachers? Mine were a collection of anti-authoritarian left-wingers (went to those hotbeds of Leninism Oxford and Cambridge). They would all have been horrified by this kind of measure because they believed that herding people destroys individual responsibility.
Since 1990, the USA and the UK have become more like the Soviet Union. And I notice that more and more people post on Slashdot in de
Re: (Score:3)
No, squatters don't have rights when staying on property that isn't theres. They have privileges granted them by an insane government that doesn't care if it violates the rights of property owners.
The right to life trumps the "right to profit." A rental property (or other non-occupied property) with a squatter in it doesn't violate the owner's rights. If the owner is occupying the property (and no, showing up after they hear about a squatter isn't occupying it), then the owner has full rights, as someone else in their house does infringe on their rights.
Re: (Score:3)
Sorry, I won't "get used to it" perhaps you should get "used to the idea" that people don't want it.
Re: (Score:3)
Why does there have to be one? You're starting from the solution to an as yet undefined problem. I see the solution as the problem.
Re:Employement (Score:4, Insightful)
School is mandatory and work is voluntary.