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Science

Biomolecular Computers 66

Posted by Hemos from the can-you-say-nanotech dept.
wanderingstar writes "The BBC has an article about a prototype of little Turing machines that live in your body and heal you. It's being presented at conference going on at MIT right now about "DNA Based Computers". There was also a presentation yesterday about embedding information into DNA. " Mmm...nano-bio-tech.. All of hemos' favorite things.
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Biomolecular Computers More

Biomolecular Computers

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  • I said this on another topic, but I'll sayit again. I think everyone should read the James Halperin book, "The First Immortal", about a man who is undergoes cryonic freezing, and is then re-animated years later when nanotech is common. Basically Halperin says that everyone's lifespan will soon be measured in centuries or even millenias. All because of nanotech. Sounds good to me. Halperin doesn't really address population, although he does mention that people are living at other places in the solar system. My own idea is that maybe we could have everyone who wants to use nanotech or cryonic freezing sign a contract to not have more than 1 child(maybe 2). This way we could slow population growth and eventually it would hopefully plateau. However, the population would still be far, far higher than 6 billion even if every family has only 2 children, b/c of the increased lifespan.
  • In theory, this is a Good Thing. After all, little robots healing any damage that befalls me? Great!

    However, consider the other uses of these things. First, as a weapon. And you know that's what the military will use them for first. What better weapon is there, after all? Dump a few billion in the water supply and kill off everyone, then have the nanites "dissolve" the bodies so that there's no mess.

    Then take that further and you have an instrument of controlling people. Sure, you're not literally dictating their throughts, but if a person has them in there it wouldn't take much to have the nanites go berserk and destroy everything.

    Take this further still and you have the ultimate instrument of torture. Kill a person as slowly and painfully as you like, or simply heal them of any damage you do then do it again and again and again.

    I wish these things would be used as this doctor would like to see them used. But it won't happen.
  • I'm not scary - I am merely logical. However, I do agree with you somewhat about how bad genes should be stopped from passing on. However, that does not include people who suffer from Mental Retardation - that's the big one. You see, life should be treated EXACTLY the same way WE treat it - in other words, life must be treated as if it were a Manufacturing Warehouse. What happenes when a defective product is made? It gets thrown away...just like I was. You see, I was treated the very same way I just mentioned. When I 'lacked' knowledge I joined the military, but later they found out that I was legally blind (-10 diopters, to be precise) and like the Manufacturing Warehouse I just mentioned, I was disposed of as if I were a piece of garbage. Since then, I have had surgery that has corrected the problem, and now I see better than most people. However, the bad genes of poor eyesight still reside within me, and can be passed on, and therefore, I have made a decision to never 'mate' or pass on my genes to some unfortunate individual. However, I would like to return the favor to the rest of the world...find all of the flaws I can and dispose of them. Of course, I would be one of the ones to be disposed of - but at least, I would be the one who made the Gears of Utter Destruction 'and salvation' start turning.
  • Hmm? Nice way to hide a message, but who ever the intended reader is will also need to know the Key, which is probably a 10-20 base sequence of DNA (a primer) for (I assume) PCR.
    If the message is THAT important, who ever you don't want to get it probably has easy access to a PCR machine(most college undergrads do)...

    beyond that all the "enemy" need is 4 things:

    1) the letter
    2) the Key sequence
    3) whatever code they used to translate the ATCG sequences into words
    4) $50 for the primer

    - (all of the above i'd have to call "everyday" intelligence issues :)

    -which makes me wonder what the point of the whole experiment was???


  • Okay, who wants to make a cheap joke about plugging in cables?
  • ....umm,
    Remind me not to give this guy toltarialistic control over any size populace?
    (Did I spell that right?, would I be eliminated for my spelling mistake genes?)

    P.S. Hey Kadamose, you can't have been "thrown away" by the University of Idaho, and what the hell are they teaching over there?
  • The first article says that the biological computer won't be in Von Neumann machine architecture but in Turing Machine architecture.

    Yeah , Yeah. Tell it to me. But read the cindrella book first. Why do some scientists write such fallacious things? Any RAM computer is equivalent to a universal TM! Man, the thing they wrote in the BBC article is so silly.
  • Posted by d106ene5:

    Newsflash kids - he's just having fun with you.

    I thought your post was hilarious.
  • Posted by Mary CW:

    Anybody read Age of Spiritual Machines? It has some stuff about the potential uses of nanotech (bot swarms, etc.). Both inspiring and scary examples. Like most tech, it solves some problems and creates entirely new ones.
  • They will, once CS students have to learn some real biology besides Life Sciences for Poets.
  • Posted by d106ene5:

    Kadamose - do you have a website? my girlfriend and i are having a riot reading your posts. That shit is hilarious dude!
  • This gives new meaning to the idea of a computer virus.


    Look, SOMEONE had to say it! ;->

    mindslip
  • Got it covered. That's what I trained my midichlorians to do.
  • Will it run Linux?
    SCNR
  • (Score -1: Bleeding Obvious)

    think of the Beowulf cluster you could build with these babies :-)
    --
    Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
  • I was at this consortum. They had some tasty ice cream.

    I think its a shame that the bio-computer people aren't talking to the nanite people as much as they should. It seems like the downward scaling problems of nanotechnology and the upward complexity problems of bio-computing could be solved if they got together and developed some sort of hybrid technology which used the strenghts of both.

    cya

  • I also noticed that the article didn't mention what his machine does. I mean, I presume it processes RNA strands and produces enzymes or something based on that input (like what your cells and what viruses do already), but what custom behavior did he code it for?

    People get all excited about the possibilities, and I'll grant you that some things would be really cool as well as possible, like curing hormone imbalances (chemically-based insanity, pituitary and thyroid problems, etc.) but I wonder what he thinks this model would do. Cure HIV? Eliminate rhinoviruses? Run Linux?

  • I especially liked the part of this article that went:

    "Professor Shapiro is hopeful that someday soon the technology will exist to build his idea on the cellular level he envisions."

    Um, I can build a cardboard box and say that if i put stuff that hasn't been invented yet into it, it'll be a time machine (that I have no proof will work). Can I present it at MIT next?
  • Powerful in the Force am I.
  • So, I take it you only recently took a look at the human race? :P
  • If they are true turing machines, you can run anything you want on them. See Church's theorm.
  • I really think that this is the future for humanity.

    Think about the applications...
    • You could fight any virus/germ that you could identify.
    • Three words: Cure for cancer
    • Clinical immortality, live as long as you want (and want as long as you live).
    • And the point that would sell it to the yuppies of the world: Eat whatever food you want. Abuse your body with substances (alcohol, cigarettes, whatever), and not have to deal with the long term defects...

    And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

    Don't get me wrong, I won't be lining up to be a beta tester or anything, but this concept rocks.
    -

  • This is nothing new really. It is exactly what our immune system is doing already, and very well at that. The immune system even continues to function when being hammered with myriads of problems all at the same time or when receiving a strong do not act signal. And the immune system is just a part of the continuous growth and turnover in our bodies which is usually referred to as life.

    Without the continous healing, rebuilding and growth occurring in our bodies, you and I would cease to exist within days, if not quicker.

    Our bodies are not static. They are the product of continuous buildup and removal of molecules, precisely orchestrated in space and time and self-organizing. As such, we resemble much more the seemingly static patterns seen in flowing water than a machine that is first built and then used. See nonlinear thermodynamics and chaos theory.

    I just wonder if purposely built 'machines/computers' to 'enhance' these functions will really do so, or rather get in the way.

  • the first hacker was a chick.
  • >most americans are so uneducated, they don't even know that AIDS was manmade and that the cure was right under their noses all along

    I'm sure that your "educated" (nice run-on sentence, btw) self would just love to disclose the source of this "manmade" virus. While you're at it, go ahead and let the world know what the cure resting firmly on our upper lip is.

    >Personally, I do not think that this many people deserve to live - in fact, I do not think that even 1 billion people deserve to live. That is way to many people - therefore, I have come up with a plan to execute them all.

    I sincerely hope that someone locks you up.

    > If everything were free in the world - knowledge, material goods, education - then there would not be any problems with humanity actually grasping this sort of technology. If everyone worked together as a team, instead of being in competetion with one another, then we literally demi-gods right now.

    You claim this, but with virtually unlimited information available at your fingertips (about grammar), you can't manage anything above the ramblings of a madman.

    Please take your medication. It might help with the paranoid delusions.
  • Humans, especially Americans, are a waste of flesh and blood, because all they do is breed, and want more and more money

    You're absolutely right. There are no artists, charity workers, religious persons, inventors anywhere in the world -- especially in the United States.

    Theu continue to fight the same wars of their pathetic ancestors; they continue to have the same ideals as their pathetic ancestors; and they are born, they grow up, they get married, they have children, they get a job, they grow old, they work themselves to death, and then they die. And yet, people, in this day and age continue to believe that these ideals are GOOD

    Yeah, we call that culture, and there's a bit more to it than working, aging and breeding. Isn't it amazing how children tend to follow the example set by their parents?

    Do you people want to continue to reproduce at an alarming rate like a bunch of maggots? I believe the answer is YES because most of the people in this pathetic world (about 80%) don't even know how to tie their own damn shoes.

    Hmm... you assume they all own shoes. And for the record, I bet even the ones who don't own shoes could teach you (and probably me as well) a thing or two.

    Do these kinds of people deserve nanotechnology? Do these people with an IQ below 70 deserve to pass on their crippled genes for another thousand years or so? Do these people even deserve to live? I think not.

    Well I do. My mother has a glass cat fashioned and hand painted by a "retarded" person. It's hands down a better job than I could ever hope to do. Intelligence (or lack thereof) is an extremely poor measure of a man.

    Another reason why humanity does not deserve Nanotechnology is because of their governments. Knowledge is being kept away from students and non-students; people aren't really learning new - instead they are learning the material in which the goverment wants them to learn.

    So true, the college I go to (a GOVERNMENT financed organization) shamelessly forces me to learn basic electronics theories rather than immediately allowing me to start advanced research projects. The bastards! Worse, every government in the world is conspiring against me!

    With limits such as this, how can people be educated enough to handle such a wonderful, yet very deadly, technology? The answer is, that they can't - they're too stupid - especially Americans. You don't understand my logic? I'll give an example - the first thing Americans would do with Nanotechnology, without even thinking is they would try to heal AIDS victims

    The assholes! How dare they cure AIDS!?

    even though most americans are so uneducated, they don't even know that AIDS was manmade and that the cure was right under their noses all along - and that the governemt that most of them pledge their idiotic allegiance to is the one who administered and created the 'virus strand' to begin with to keep them in fear, so that they would be more easily controlled. - end of example.

    Well, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm one of those uneducated Americans can't see the brutally obvious. Perhaps you would like to share the cure to AIDS with all us morons, and those idiots who are conducting AIDS research?
    Too bad that dastardly government plot is totally ineffective. I've yet to run screaming and sobbing to the home of my congressman, begging him to protect me from the big bad bug.

    I do not think that even 1 billion people deserve to live. That is way to many people - therefore, I have come up with a plan to execute them all.

    Oh goodie!!! Can I be a member of your master race? I promise I'll only pass my good genes on to future generations.

    If everything were free in the world - knowledge, material goods, education - then there would not be any problems with humanity actually grasping this sort of technology. If everyone worked together as a team, instead of being in competetion with one another, then we literally demi-gods right now.

    Yeah, look how well that worked in the U.S.S.R.

    Just out of curiosity, how many people do you suppose will actually want to live forever? It seems to me that many people consider earthly life to be a spiritual development stage in their existence. It would seem to me that at least some of these inbred hicks will eventually want to move on to the next level.

    Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

  • Man, are you right! Dna is not designed to do bit-level processing. It's a subset of how the larger universe(tm) does it's processing - with wavefronts, and interference. A Dna molecule is basically a holographic representation of the entire being it's meant to reproduce and, like optical holograms, you can hurt it pretty bad before it loses much data. That's the graceful failure feature you mention.
    Use a mess of dna and mitochondria as a neural-net cpu, and you might have a real product...
  • Um... they tried this...
    Cave Man #1: ugh, ugh, you have more apples than
    me.
    Cave Man #2: I have more apples I am better than
    you.
    Cave Man #1: Having more apples than me is not
    fare.
    Cave Man #1: I will hit you with club.
    Cave Man #2: I have bigger club, for I have more
    apples.
    Cave Man #2: he bashes his brains out and now
    has even more apples

    (Of course... this is not factual in any way just about, but proves you point is not valid)

  • I'm not sure which article you folks were reading, but these things don't heal people. The only reference to anything like that in the original article was near the top, "Some scientists believe that, in the future, small biological computers could roam our bodies monitoring our health and correcting any problems they may find." This is what we've all heard about nanotech robots. The paper itself mentions the ability to release bioactive agents which have been "computed" in response to some stimulus - this is like a smart drug and not something that will repair bullet holes.

    There isn't a single reference to health or medicine in the entire paper. This work was done in computing science. We're talking about machines which can store data and all the changes ever made to it. Deleted a file? No problem, just run the machine in reverse. You think IBM's new media is dense? Try this out.

    It could mean, for example, that we could finally trust digital data not to have been tampered with - we could check that the whole history of changes were there.

    I'm quite happy to read a discussion about nanotechnology and all the wonderous bits, pieces, and moral questions involved. Let's just be straight about what we're talking about. Machines like this will not fix you if you fall. They're designed as computers.

    Shapiro's machines could be adapted to serve medical purposes. They could create substances inside your body from materials already present in your body. Insulin, for example, in response to rising glucose levels. One problem is keeping the machines in the body - unlike your own cells, they don't replicate themselves, nor do I think that they could (they're not polymers, they're some other kind of construct).

    As for the moral problems with using them for medicine, I don't really see that many. After all, we can do similar things by administering compounds ourselves. In example of diabetes, we simply inject insulin and control it roughly. If the military wants to kill people by poisoning the well, they can use any number of a huge array of chemicals.

    I know that the thing's a model right now, but the concept has promise and like most such things, we should bear in mind what exactly that promise is and not what we think it should be.

  • Yes, it will bring a whole new meaning to Virus Protection.

    Read Neal Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age', kids. All this sort of revolution will bring is a new paradigm for computing, hacking, cracking....

    Sure, someone might try and infect you with some Stephenson-esque "cookie cutter" nanites, but that will only work if your virus protection nanites aren't up to date.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. I can't see things being that much different from the situation today with computers.

    Apart from being able to see for 20 kms in pitch darkness and leap tall buildings in a single bound.


    ÐÆ
  • In "Red Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson, relative immortality comes from engineering a virus which alters cells so that they don't start deteriorating. Sounds more plausible with current technology.
  • *ROFL* ...please...stop... :)))))))
    ohmygod.

    BTW, make a /. vote like this:

    DO YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER?

    - Yes, of course!
    - No, no way!
    - Why? I AM immortal!

    more ideas? ;)

    Nice aphorism by someone, who's name i forgot, poorly translated into english:

    "Mankind should always be aware, that it is not more than just a experiment of nature"


  • When was the last time you checked out any decent pre-med program? I doubt I have to take any math IN medical school, but the pre-med program (I'm a biology major technically...) here is somewhat math intensive. We don't have to take any differential equations, but it is VERY hard to get out of Calculus II. Sure Cal 2 isn't HARD math, but it is a hell of a lot more than college algebra (which my ACT scores exempted me from).
  • It's called a model. If you had a model of the time machine, and could scientifically/mathematically explain how it would work, then I'm sure MIT would love to have you. It's possible to know how something can work, but just not have the capabilities to create it.

  • From what I read here, the big difference between the functionality of Dr. Shapiro's device and that of ribosomes (rRNA), mRNA and tRNA is that Dr. Shapiro's machine could be made to construct strands of nucleic acids (read: more mRNA) while the RNA's can only build protein chains. I think this is a pretty big difference, because the machine's output can also be its input (which you really really don't want in cells). The upshot is that it won't be healing you any time soon - it deals in nucleic acids, not proteins, and it's too small to have little robotic arms or something to sew things up. :)

    I have to do some more reading of the paper yet but what will really be interesting is how he proposes to keep the thing operating reliably - even DNA transcription (an incredibly fast and reliable process, IMHO) is prone to the occasional mutation (read/write error). DNA deals with this using redundancy and graceful failure (eg: the last GU in the subject mRNA string doesn't do anything at all instead of coding a second head).

    I'm not sure how useful this device will be in doing any real computing - it will take some more work to develop algorithms for what looks like a fundamentally wacky programming paradigm (Have you booted your Turing machine lately? Now, do it with chemicals!) and plus there is no mention of the speed of this device. Who knows, it could be prohibitively slow. What looks nifty is the implications in data storage; in the paper, Dr. Shapiro writes, "The trace polymer created during the computation represents past state changes and head movements, as well as the symbols that were "erased" from the tape during each transition, and as such has several important advantages. First, the trace polymer renders the computer reversible." He goes on to describe how this could also make data storage inherently more efficient. So, rather than looking at cures for cancer I think we should look at very small and very auditable data storages.

    Don't take my word for it. Go /. the horse's mouth! Buried in Dr. Shapiro's web site at the Weizmann institute is some Supporting material for the lecture [weizmann.ac.il] including the paper itself (RTF) [weizmann.ac.il].

  • You're obviously just looking for a reaction. I think a little misguided comments are going to get you in hot water.

    For starters, how much do you thing nanotech immortality injections would cost? Then think how many people with an IQ of seventy could afford it? I'm sure it's less than your billion.

    One other thing. We wouldn't be immune to everything. computers do get infections too you know, just ask Symantec or Dr. Solomon. Imagine the viruses malicious people could write to make you life giving nanotech, take it from you.
  • I've been to three of the last four of these conferences, and believe me, none of this nanotech like stuff is being talked about. These conferences are a bunch of mathemeticians, computer scientists, biologist, and chemists that are all hacking away DNA (or RNA). One of the coordinators there (Erik Winfree) designed and made a really cool self replicating lattice (and a cube) out of DNA. There's usually some stuff on "really hard" problems that can be theoretically solved easily with DNA, and usually have been solved in trivial cases. Anyway, they've got a lot of really cool things going on, but they're really just a bunch of hackers getting together and talking about all the cool stuff they did.

  • True, but if you could make bacteria-sized Turing machines from scratch, you could design their external surfaces to either be non-immunogenic (the biological equivalent of teflon), or make them able to detect and remove or destroy any antibodies that bind to them.

    The bigger problem I see is enabling them to interact productively with their surroundings. Microsensors that measure glucose or oxygen levels already exist. But micromachines that can read and repair the sequence of the DNA inside a cell, without ripping the DNA (or chromosome or nucleus or cell) to shreds? I won't live to see it.
  • I'm thinking of the 'Seven Minute Red Plague'(??) in _The_Diamond_Age_

    --
    Bun-Bun Rules! [sluggy.com]
    90% of day read /.
  • The guy who writes the "Sector General Hospital" stories did one on some previously unknown species, a member of which was hauled into Sector General suffering from some unknown ailment. All he was able to say is that his doctor had made him sick. Turns out he'd been injected with some biotech thing that was supposed to keep some other species healthy and it was killing him by mistake.

    Oops.

  • Owie (Score:2)

    by Skyshadow ( 508 )
    Given the picture, I don't see a major market for these things.
    I mean, having something make repairs is cool, but imagine
    having something the size of a breadbox swimming around in ya...

    [IMPORTANT: This is humor. I was not born in West Virgina.]

    ----

  • :P, Why would you even WANT it to run linux?

    But seriously, this technology would be amazing. These little bots could kill matasticizing cancer cells, fight the aids virus, cure the common cold :), they could also fix failing organs, help your poor ol liver out a little bit, and clean that nasty cholesterol out of your blood system.

    Thats nice and all, but don't forget the reverse side of the story, they could be used for lots of nasty things, Conspiracy theorists would have a fieldday going over the possiblities. Don't forget the perfect weapon/torture device. Want some info? Dump the bots in someone's body and have them stimulate pain but keep the body in perfect condition for a week or two. Want to do some ethnic cleansing? Find the genes that code meletonin levels or dominent feature among the ethnic race you don't want, fuel the choppers, spray a little metalic rain on a populace, have the bots go through the skin, scan the dna, and if the person isn't on your ok list, instant/not so instant death.

    Also, would you want a government agency the runs sigint operations having access to the bots that you get injected with at birth? Sure the bots might clean drug out of your system, but if you an uptight stuffshirt in a high place, why not just code them to kill anyone with enough of an illegal substance in there body? Pepsi could put it in their drink and have little bots that would detect Coke and alter people's tastebuds to make it taste like shit.

    Hope we as a people are ready for these little bots :P
  • "True, but if you could make bacteria-sized Turing machines from scratch, you could design their external surfaces to either be non-immunogenic (the biological equivalent of teflon), or make them able to detect and remove or destroy any antibodies that bind to them"

    Well it'd be nice to have these things, but I'd rather they come up with a better way to stop rejection than killing my antibodies.
  • before.

    A word of warning: This guy has conveniently left out the dark side of national socialism. It's sort of like the opposite of how bills get killed. You tack on a little last minute very unpopular amendment to the bill to kill it. Well he's done the opposite. He's left out the usual racist baggage most popularised Nazis proudly include. I'm not saying this guy's one of them but he's spouting a lot of Darwinism. It's a good idea not to confuse the sheep with wolves.

    OTOH, If I were to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'd say he's right.
    About education.
    About AIDS (who knows really, but I can tell you they've been pretty slow about curing it. There's an essay I read once about all the promises. It was in a College English text I once had. If only I remembered the title of the essay collection.)
    About freedom. Yep.

    About executing people. No. The freedom of information and capable teachers outside of the schools would make such a drastic move unnecessary. Perhaps a Home-Schooling Council would be appropriate.

    About fucking like rabbits. Don't knock it till you've tried it. Seriously, look around. It's the conservative countries like China that have a billion residents. (Hmm do I smell a slip of the tongue on his part?) Why do conservative governments have high populations? People don't even fuck when they're married anymore. They now have children. And they mix other people's gametes to do it if they can't have kids naturally. Why is this? Hmm, familyism. Chinese residents generally have three generations under one roof. That's a fucking centuries worth of prejudices. When you turn 21 your relatives can't wait to see your future offspring. Hence China has an excuse to say and has said, "We believe it is our duty to feed our population not worry about civil rights." Is it any wonder that a culture that has no depth in its values would have such a fate. Imagine if as we grew up we didn't have to search for knowledge, just be safe and always in the company of people who know what's best for us. Monstrous. But guess where the hacker-user conflict draws its fire from? Granted MS is the pusher.

    But back to the current context for such technology. Haven't we been here before? Lots of optimism, world fairs, machine lunacy, and then out of nowhere war like we'd never imagined.

    At least I wish these "geniuses" would give us a chance to finish the foundation before building the house.
  • I refuse to even address most of the paranoid delusions you wrote of in your post. However:

    "Do these people with an IQ below 70 deserve to pass on their crippled genes for another thousand years or so? Do these people even deserve to live? I think not."

    This is just pathetic and sickens me. Is it these people's fault that they are unintelligent? Should they be punished because of some freak accident or because genes lined up the wrong way? Now I do think that we should try, as humanely as possible, to stop problems like this, but I also think we should stop problems like near-sightedness. This doesn't mean I would go around in some Pol-Potesque manner, killing everyone who wears glasses. But it might be possible to stop those genes from being passed down(without stopping people with glasses, like me, from having children). Do you want some society like Gattaca? I know I don't. I think it would be great if we could eliminate retardation and many other genetic problems, but not at the cost of liberty for those involved.

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