Autism Should Not Be Seen As Single Condition With One Cause, Say Scientists 150
Bruce66423 shares a report from The Guardian: Those diagnosed as small children typically have distinct genetic profile from those diagnosed later, [finds an international study based on genetic data from more than 45,000 autistic people in Europe and the U.S]. So, there's more than one condition out there that's being diagnosed as "autism." This, of course, messes with the debate about causes; one version of autism may be caused by something for which the evidence is very weak overall. "The term 'autism' likely describes multiple conditions," said Dr Varun Warrier, from Cambridge's department of psychiatry, senior author of the research. "For the first time, we have found that earlier and later diagnosed autism have different underlying biological and developmental profiles."
"It is a gradient," added Warrier. "There are also many other factors that contribute to age of diagnosis, so the moment you go from averages to anything that is applicable to an individual, it's false equivalency."
The analysis has been published in the journal Nature.
"It is a gradient," added Warrier. "There are also many other factors that contribute to age of diagnosis, so the moment you go from averages to anything that is applicable to an individual, it's false equivalency."
The analysis has been published in the journal Nature.
I mean sure (Score:3)
Jokes aside we really are still at the leeches stage when it comes to mental health. Assuming our civilization doesn't collapse and that is assuming a lot in 200 years they're going to look back and wince when they see how we handle mental health care.
Re:I mean sure (Score:5, Insightful)
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I wonder how they screened the data for people who developed autism later and that's why they were only diagnosed now and those who always had it and just nobody ever thought to check.
I was born in 81 and got diagnosed only a few years ago but quite a few of the symptoms that made me want to get checked out reach back to childhood.
In many cases, I am still finding examples from childhood which I now have a possible explanation for. So just because someone gets diagnosed does not mean he or she immediately c
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I wonder how they screened the data for people who developed autism later and that's why they were only diagnosed now and those who always had it and just nobody ever thought to check.
I was born in 81 and got diagnosed only a few years ago but quite a few of the symptoms that made me want to get checked out reach back to childhood.
I think the problem here is "developed autism later".
You are born with autism. It is not always obvious, and the symptoms may only become more apparent later in life, but you don't "get autism" later in life. This is an interesting problem especially for women, become women are often TAUGHT social cues, and thus mask/hide a lot of the signs that male autistic kids show earlier.
I'm not autistic, but I am ADHD. Diagnosed at 38. It was 100% always there, but the doctors i went to didn't know the clues
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My take on reading the summary is that doctors should try to separate more classifications of "autism".
I feel there are a lot of diseases like that, such as Alzheimer's. Why do we assume two people with the same symptoms have the same disease? They could be totally different diseases that present the same way.
Re: I mean sure (Score:1)
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I agree with the idea that there are multiple issues, all lumped under one. What I see is labelling someone who's fascinated by something as "autistic", when it's not something the labeller finds of any interest.
Precision is *necessary* in some cases - I mean, do you need a new wisget on the frammistat to fix your car?
But that list of traits... reminds me of most gun nuts.
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Welcome to the club.
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It could be Tylenol or it could be vaccines or it could even be the dreaded ghey or maybe those dastardly drag queens!
I'm gonna channel my inner Citizen Kane and say "Epppsteeeein."
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It could be Tylenol or it could be vaccines or it could even be the dreaded ghey or maybe those dastardly drag queens! Jokes aside we really are still at the leeches stage when it comes to mental health. Assuming our civilization doesn't collapse and that is assuming a lot in 200 years they're going to look back and wince when they see how we handle mental health care.
The leeches stage of mental health? No. The leeches stage of medicine was at least the on the cusp of, "Let's do some shit and see if it helps." Right now the vast majority of mental health advice is, "Buck up, fucko. It can't be that bad." We're basically at the point where tribes would leave someone out to die if they broke a leg because they didn't want the debilitated person to slow the tribe down in its migration when it comes to mental health. In some specific cases we're sorta trying things, but it's
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That nicely sums it up. I mean, we even have people that think mental health issues are not real. I know somebody like that. Until he got problems himself so strong as to be completely unable to work.
Does orange skin & stupidity have one cause ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just asking for a friend.
Re:Does orange skin & stupidity have one cause (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: Does orange skin & stupidity have one caus (Score:2)
Imagine being surrounded by sycophants that would never tell you how terrible your suit and makeup look?
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Perhaps, but I have faith that at least you wouldn't go out of your way to protect a pedophile.
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I'm just RFK Jr knows. He knows everything. Including what causes autism.
Not a single condition? (Score:4, Informative)
So, is Asperger's Syndrome back in?
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We're great at a small set of skills,
Not so small. And lives (and wars) have been lost because foreign workers didn't have the breadth of knowledge that their American counterparts had. I'm thinking about the 737 Max crashes, where several American pilots, diagnosing the problem, easily corrected the aircraft's dive and flew on. Some other natonalities consider 'pilot' to be a high status job. Unworthy of the intimate mechanical knowledge involved. And they flew right into the ground.
During WWII, there were significant differences between Bri
Re:Not a single condition? (Score:5, Interesting)
Aspergers was never really considered a separate condition in the biological sense, rather it was just a classification intended to separate profound and non profound cases (Ie people with significant disability vs the "awkward and likes trains" people). But no thats not whats being suggested here, rather that there might be whole separate conditions with the same or similar symptoms but different underlying biology.
I strongly suspect theres something similar going on with ADHD, and its almost certain its the case with schizophrenia.
Re: Not a single condition? (Score:3)
I wonder about ADHD. Fwict, the condition expresses in childhood, it's usually pretty obvious
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Separate but equally, there actually seems to be different types of autism entirely - even among high functioning ASD people, you can see wildly different effects (some of which is coping
Given the number of (Score:2)
Scientists on the spectrum
It is more accurate to claim Autism causes Vaccines [smbc-comics.com]
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You joke, but there is indications that Autism causes taking of Tylenol (in the mother while pregnant). And THAT is why anybody that does not understand the difference between correlation and causation should never make scientific statements.
Thats why its called Autism Spectrum Disorder (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe that is why with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fifth edition (DSM-5), Autism was re-labeled as Autism Spectrum Disorder. Emphasis on Spectrum. It isn't just one thing. Not sure why this is news today. Its been this way since at least 2013 when DSM-5 came out.
It encompasses what used to be Aspergers and Pervasive Development Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.
I have higher functioning ASD and have two sons who have ASD - one mild and the other one more severe. While all three of us have some behaviors in common, we are also very different. I also have a sister who has Aspergers (now part of the ASD umbrella).
There are also several people in my neighborhood who have ASD, and they are all different from each other. There isn't a single definition of ASD that would describe all of us in our neighborhood. And it is very unlikely there is a single cause for the entire spectrum. Its a whole spectrum of things that are similar enough that they were put under an umbrella called Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Kinda like coming up with something like "broken bone spectrum disorder" where it encompasses all broken bones (arms, femurs, etc...) where although they are all similar in that all things in the spectrum requires a bone to be broken, how they got broken, where the bone is located, and how its treated can vary widely.
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The DSM-5 manual specifically states the following, which is where the rollup of Aspergers and PDD NOS into Autisim Spectrum Disorder comes from. Again this is from 2013, so its been this way for 12 years.
"Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose sympto
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Once the definition have been stretched to the point that it could be used for completely disjoint sets of symptoms it became useless. "Autistic" is just the new "quirky".
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What moral rights did you have to infect your children with your bad genes? Severely limiting their lives? You should pay damages and compensation to them.
Or... (Score:2)
...autism is just autism. It's just that so many people try to get onto the bandwagon of autism and being included in the neurodivergent population these days that their unrelated conditions got associated with autism for popular rather than factual reasons.
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Autism is definitely a complex phenomenon. The number of people diagnosed today in the US is about the same as was being diagnosed in Europe 25 years ago, so no, I don't think anyone is jumping onto bandwagons, it's just Americans are being less stupid.
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There are 1500 genes involved. As effects are likely not merely down to specific genes, but gene interactions, you're going to need a model that can handle 2^1500 different permutations. That's simply not something that is classifiable.
As far as gene therapies are concerned, since autism seems to involve combining elements of Neanderthal neurology with homo sapiens neurology, the obvious fix would be to add further Neanderthal genes where combinations are known to produce adverse effects.
In other news, water is wet. (Score:2)
There are 1500 genes associated with autism and nobody has them all. This gives us 2^1500 different forms of the condition. So, yeah, more than one.
Makes sense (Score:2)
It's like cancer, or common cold, in a sense that we talk about possibly hundreds or thousands of different conditions as if it was one.
I've been saying this for years. (Score:2)
I have (a diagnosis of) autism (aka Aspergers) and a diagnosis of Bipolar.
I often say it is better to say "Alice has an autism" and "Alice has a Bipolar Disorder", with the indefinite article. If "Alice has autism" and "Bob has autism", then it does not follow that "Alice and Bob have the same autism". Same with every psychiatric diagnostic label. If "Alice has a manic episode in 2005" and "Alice has a manic episode in 2006", then it isn't the that "Alice had two of the same thing". That is, Alice's second
Ok then (Score:2)
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Genes as weak links but environment pulls on them (Score:2)
Related: "A Functional Medicine Approach to Autism" by Dr. Mark Hyman ...
https://drhyman.com/blogs/cont... [drhyman.com]
"TODAY MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE that Autism is a genetic brain disorder. I'm here to tell you that this isn't true. The real reason we are seeing increasing rates of autism is simply this: Autism is a systemic body disorder that affects the brain. A toxic environment triggers certain genes in people susceptible to this condition. And research supports this position.
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Related: "A Functional Medicine Approach to Autism" by Dr. Mark Hyman https://drhyman.com/blogs/cont... [drhyman.com] "TODAY MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE that Autism is a genetic brain disorder. I'm here to tell you that this isn't true. The real reason we are seeing increasing rates of autism is simply this: Autism is a systemic body disorder that affects the brain. A toxic environment triggers certain genes in people susceptible to this condition. And research supports this position. ...
I always enjoy when an article uses vague weasel words like "toxic environment". It almost always means the paper is crap.
Every child with autism has unique genetics, causes or triggers. And it is not usually one thing but a collection of insults, toxins and deficiencies piled on susceptible genetics that leads to biochemical train wrecks we see in these children ...
It is likely to usually be a neurologically targeted autoimmune condition. Yeah, it can have various triggers, just like any autoimmune disease, but typically an allergen or an infective agent that tricks the immune system into attacking your own cells. So there's arguably some truthiness here, anyway. :-D
[The article then goes on to show a case study of a child whose "autism" was reversed by multiple interventions which were mostly dietary but also involved antibiotics, antifungals, and probiotics.]"
This sounds like it is being promoted by supplement companies that sell probioti
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, unfortunately, it's not. My son and I are both high functioning Autistics. While we both excel in some areas, others we are just clueless on. Give me something technical and I'll figure it out, guaranteed. Put me in a room full of people in a social setting and I feel like a literal fish out of water. It can be sometimes be scary and lonely which truly sucks. I wish Autism was bull.
however (Score:1, Insightful)
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fit from a Darwinian perspective
Genes prespective. Fit from the GENES perspective you ignorant fark
Re: however (Score:3)
So do paraplegics, all the time. Are you saying that those people are not lacking legs?
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:5, Informative)
"I feel like a literal fish out of water" ;)
I assume you mean "I feel like a proverbial fish out of water", but we get what you mean. You aren't flapping on the floor.
From a fellow autist, with communication issues
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:4, Funny)
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As a neurotypical, I would accept that "literal" as a stronger, more personal form of "proverbial". No idea whether that makes any sense to you, but to me (a) it is clear that this is proverbial and (b) "literal" makes it more of a visceral statement. Yes, the grammatically correct use is "proverbial", but who cares. Communication is more important.
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:5, Funny)
...and I feel like a literal fish out of water
I think you mean "metaphorical fish out of water" unless you're flopping around on the floor meanwhile dying from not being able to breath.
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Which is easy when a disease is vague, the underlying cause unknown, and the medical community unable to give solid answers. Its hip to have a disease too. People give symptathy, its an excuse, it unlocks "medicine"
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I always find this rather depressing since the main argument against 'autism' from autistic adults seems to be 'maybe neurotypicals would not treat me so badly if I was normal too'.
Which from an individual perspective makes a lot of sense, but is still kinda sad.
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Exactly that same with me.
Suffered all my youth from being pushed to socialize, because I was a book worm, and 'normal' people have to socialize.
It was stressful for me, and still is.
But give me any ner
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I recently had an Autist student. She matched about what you describe. I had to tell her that in order to disrespect me, she would have to be actively trying to and even then I would ask to clarify before jumping to conclusions. Apparently she had made some bad experiences in that regard. My take (and I told her so) was that as long as she was competent in the subject (IT security) and handed it acceptable work, things were fine with me and any other issues could be worked around. I go the distinct impressi
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:4, Insightful)
Only someone who has never been around someone who is autistic, could say such a thing.
Autism is often debilitating, some who suffer from it can never function as adults, in their entire life. They may need to have someone care for them permanently. Others are higher functioning and can hold down a job and make a life for themselves. But they often share an inability to read other people's emotions or social cues. Many are extremely brilliant in some specific areas, but hopelessly lost in others.
The only thing I can say to you is that I pity your ignorance, and hope that one day you encounter someone who is autistic. I would hope that you both learn the truth, and learn that such people are valuable and deserving of love and respect.
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> But they often share an inability to read other people's emotions or social cues.
That is known as double empathy problem.
https://www.autism.org.uk/advi... [autism.org.uk]
To summarize: Neurotypicals are also unable to read emotions of autistic people.
There was an interesting test where groups of people played the "broken phone" game. Autistic group performed as well as neurotypical group, but when autistic and neurotypicals were together in the same group, phone didn't work.
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Give you can't post as AC without an account, the troll these days is obvious. But hey I get it. If I were posting things as mindbogglingly dumb as you I'd tick that "anonymous" box as well. I wouldn't want to associate myself with the things I say if I were a moron either. I feel you bro.
Re:Autism is bull. (Score:4, Insightful)
The majority of the people diagnosed on the spectrum can take care of themself and be productive members of society. They are just what society would have called weirdos, nerds, socially awkward and/or very shy in decades past. Overtime most of those people can learn how to fake it when they need to when dealing with others. Or sometimes even just grow out of it entirely. Today those people are considered autistic, aka on the spectrum. Then there are the truly and completely autistic who would probably not survive without help. They are likely low IQ as well, but sometimes just the opposite. However without the ability to communicate and express themself in ways familiar to most other people.
It seems obvious to me those should be two separate classifications. The problem is there isn’t a definitive line. But the extremes on both end of the spectrum are blatantly obvious.
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Why has the parent not been moderated down as far as possible?
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Can brainworms alone cause medical data hallucination?
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How do you separate that from the after-effects of a previous heroin addiction?
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Why would anyone bother to point out you saying yet another retarded thing?
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Are you sure it's not years of heroin addiction? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/h... [pbs.org]
Those Zyn pouches he's always sucking on can be another factor. https://floridapolitics.com/ar... [floridapolitics.com]
Re:nobody says this (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:nobody says this (Score:5, Interesting)
Just an addendum to the corruption of el Bunko, recall the grandiose announcement that he had secured an agreement with Pfizer to make certain drugs cheaper, mainly for Medicare. Their stock went up because "investors" realized it was a sweetheart deal that wouldn't impact Pfizer much at all since only about 4% of their revenue came from such drugs in the U.S. What isn't widely reported is that the cheaper drugs will appear on TrumpRx, his new web drug store. Funny how that happened.
Pfizer is just as much to blame as el Bunko. They know they are paying him off yet they find it within their corporate policies to be okay with it. From him we expect no better.
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RFK Jr has as so clearly he knows more about health than the doctor who preceded him. I mean she was overweight, and a woohman and we all know they don't know anything right?
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Many Doctors think that Fevers that can be treated with Tylenol are a great risk to babies. Trump doesn't give a shit about that.
Trump is "uncaring evil". The very opposite of what a leader should be.
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Another is that nobody is asking why people are taking Tylenol to begin with, especially if they are taking it regularly in large quantities. Is Tylenol itself causing autism, or is the underlying pain and health problems in the mother causing it?
It boggles the mind that anyone would trust the word of a politician over that of a doctor or scientist.
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Yes. And there are also pretty plausible explanation why Autism causes taking of Tylenol (in the mother, while pregnant). Not a joke.
Now an actually educated person (and you, really, really want that in a leader, even if it is decidedly not enough) knows the difference between correlation and causation. Trump does not. His mental structures are too primitive for that.
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When looking for possible explanations of any possible correlations in
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When looking for possible explanations of any possible correlations in this case there is a very obvious one: the high fever that was the reason for taking acetaminophen in the first place. This is already known to sometimes cause significant issues in developing embryos/fetuses, including problems with the brain. Examination of the studies taking this into account find it improbable that Tylenol causes autism.
To add to that, autism tends to run in families, and according to one study I was skimming, women who are autistic apparently are more uncomfortable during pregnancy to a statistically significant degree. So not only does Tylenol not cause autism, but in fact, autism (in the mother) appears likely to cause Tylenol (use).
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we obviously never studied whether falling ill during pregnancy correlates with child's autism and found very little such correlation.
What in the Hell are you ranting about? Obviously high fever is known to increase risk of brain damage, and there is a correlation between fever and autism: "Prenatal fever and autism risk [nih.gov]: "Maternal exposure to second-trimester fever was associated with increased ASD [Autism Spectrum Disorder] risk"
"Infection and Fever in Pregnancy and Autism Spectrum Disorders: Findings from the Study to Explore Early Development [nih.gov]": "After adjustment for covariates, maternal infection anytime during pregnancy was not asso
Re:nobody says this (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:For someone that doesn't know what Trump said (Score:5, Insightful)
"acts on anecdotes" You have that backwards. He first figures out a financial angle for himself, then he cast about for stupid shit that will support that angle. He isn't hard to understand.
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They're not 'illegal' only because they were granted TPS fraudulently. TPS holders are getting free health care. The US cannot absorb the whole world. Sorry.
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No, when Trump repeats that Illegal Immigrants are getting health care benefits, no, that is NOT happening.
If by "health care", you mean health insurance, then -- actually, I'm not sure what that means. They may work for employers who have health insurance plans for their employees, especially for on-the-job injuries. I don't know.
If by "health care benefits", you actually mean "health care", then The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA) [hhs.gov] "is a federal law that imposes specific obligations on Medicare-participating hospitals that offer emergency services. EMTALA requires that anyone coming to an e
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" why ORANGE MAN BAD" Why thank you for becoming woke to the condition. It must feel good to finally realize what a corrupt piece of shit he is. Go crazy!!! Tell us that he duped you and you were stupid enough to believe his bs.
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The guy bankrupt several casinos and puts ketchup on a steak and you still voted him in.
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... the effort of moments to find ample studies by actual medical authorities (like Johns Hopkins) identifying a roughly 3x incidence of autism in children exposed to it through the placental barrier.
And yet, for some reason, you chose not to exert yourself to the "effort of a moment".
"Taking Tylenol during pregnancy associated with elevated risks for autism, ADHD [jhu.edu]": (Nov 5, 2019) "A new study from researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health has found that exposure to acetaminophen in the womb may increase a child's risk for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or autism spectrum disorder."
"... the team measured the biomarkers of acetaminophen and two of its metabolic byprod
Re:FUCKING LIARS! (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:FUCKING LIARS! (Score:5, Informative)
For instance, there is debate over giving Hepatitis B shots to infants. It is largely a sexually transmitted disease and one of the primary reasons for giving it earlier is to avoid associating it with adolescents becoming sexually active. In other words, its based on political concerns not science.
This is entirely incorrect. Infants can acquire Hep B from mothers, and the virus can survive outside the body for a week. [umich.edu]
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For instance, there is debate over giving Hepatitis B shots to infants. It is largely a sexually transmitted disease and one of the primary reasons for giving it earlier is to avoid associating it with adolescents becoming sexually active
Hepatitis B is transmissible between mother and child and the main reason vaccination very short after birth is recommended. An unvaccinated infant getting hepatitis B will either die or survive with lifelong-lasting consequences, so the risks are enormous.
The debate is fueled mainly by those who are failing to learn from history. There have been different attempts to only vaccinate "high-risk" infants or to postpone the vaccination significantly. There is a reason the recommendation went back to "as soon a
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DON’T USE TYLENOL UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY...
Frankly, I see no real harm in any of those suggestions. Not that I believe them, just that its not going to cause any harm to someone following that advice.
If a pregnant woman decides not to take Tylenol to bring down a high fever, that could certainly cause some harm.
One might come back and say that's a scenario where it is in fact "ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY" to take Tylenol, but if so, maybe the president should have included a bit more nuance in his communication with the public.
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https://truthsocial.com/@realD... [truthsocial.com] BREAK UP THE MMR SHOT INTO THREE TOTALLY SEPARATE SHOTS (NOT MIXED!), TAKE CHICKEN P SHOT SEPARATELY, TAKE HEPATITAS B SHOT AT 12 YEARS OLD, OR OLDER, AND, IMPORTANTLY, TAKE VACCINE IN 5 SEPARATE MEDICAL VISITS! President DJT
The CDC website (updated two weeks ago) still recommends all infants get vaccinated. Getting the rest of the vaccinations in separate visits isn't necessary but isn't a bad precaution if you and your doctor agree. If you have an unusual reaction to one of the vaccines in the MMR suite (extremely rare) then at least you know which vaccine caused it. I would rather a person exercise undue caution and still get all the vaccinations instead of not getting them at all.
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This entire idea is original sin from Andrew Wakefield. There's like no other reason MMR is the prime suspect than the fact he was looking to sell a competition vaccine.
It's the fact anyone is having these discussions at all, doctors or not. All we've done is waste millions upon millions of many hours of effort time and stress based on a lie that has been politically hijacked.
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Who said autism is a single condition with only one cause?
Those who have an over-simplified view of the issue or that want to push one to further their agenda.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" is definitely at play here, because clear, simple answers are compelling even if wrong.
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Yeah, science is never revised as new data and understandings present themselves.
Oh wait, that's actually a fundamental part of all science. What you're wanting is religion.
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Look at those goal posts move.
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Found the anti-science idiot. MAGA-moron?
As to your statement, no. Psychology is not "bull". It is just very, very difficult and hard to get right. But it is also quite worthwhile to do so and that is why sane people keep trying.
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Thanks for confirming my analysis.