75% of Scientists in Nature Poll Weigh Leaving US (nature.com) 272
A Nature survey has found that three-quarters of responding U.S. scientists are considering leaving the nation following disruptions to science under the Trump administration.
Out of 1,608 respondents, 75.3% said they were contemplating leaving the country. Scientists cited concerns over research funding and the general treatment of science as contributing factors for their reasoning. Europe and Canada were mentioned as potential destinations for those looking for opportunities abroad.
Out of 1,608 respondents, 75.3% said they were contemplating leaving the country. Scientists cited concerns over research funding and the general treatment of science as contributing factors for their reasoning. Europe and Canada were mentioned as potential destinations for those looking for opportunities abroad.
Canada needs to jump on this (Score:5, Insightful)
We've already had two prominent scholars [insidehighered.com] leave for Toronto. With US universities throwing in the towel regarding academic freedom, this is a golden opportunity for Canada to attract world-class researchers.
Basic research is critical for competitiveness and if we can entice a bunch of researchers as the US does an own-goal on its competitiveness, we absolutely should.
Re:Canada needs to jump on this (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
One of the endpoints of the Underground Railroad was Canada - the slaves were escaping slavehood and becoming free.
So yeah, a lot is happening. I know doctors and nurses are seriously considering a move to Canada as well - one acquaintance basically is working to set up a doctor's new practice in Canada buying up new computers and other such equipment.
Many provinces are going through and trying to expedite the licensing process - if you have a valid US medical license, you can obtain a provincial one within
Re: (Score:2)
And yet somehow England and France have more doctors per capital than the US (though Canada has less).
Re: (Score:2)
Doctors in Canada do not need to opt into the public system. They can operate a private practice, but then they are not allowed to claim any reimbursement from the public system. That's what cosmetic surgeons do, for example, since cosmetic surgery is not covered by the public system.
If you want to try to compete against the public system for procedures that are covered by the public system, you can go ahead and try. It's not illegal.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Have you ever considered that (Score:5, Insightful)
- The utter disrespect that the current US administration has for science and academics in general
- The racist, xenophobic, fascist actions of the current US administration with respect to immigrants including legal ones who have the temerity to publicly disagree with right-wing doctrine.
- The fascist disrespect of the current US administration for the judicial branch of government, calling for the impeachment and harassment of judges who impede the ill considered and draconian actions of the administration.
Your country is turning into an inhospitable place for independent thinkers of any kind. Deal with that shameful shit.
Re:Have you ever considered that (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Have you ever considered that (Score:4, Insightful)
All know and agree? Sooner or later wrong-thinking citizens will find they have also forfeited due process because "we all know and agree it should happen." It surprises me how quickly you are willing to abandon the principles of the Constitution and toss it out the window as a mere hindrance to "getting things done."
You need to realize that at some point your guy won't be king anymore and someone else will be who scares you and with whom you disagree vehemently. But the erosion of human rights that has happened up til now will mean your rights will also be eroded under this unfavorable circumstance.
Re: (Score:3)
Until you have become naturalized, you are guest! Guests should not offend the hosts. If you are are not citizen but are within the US or its territories no you should not be mouthing off about US policy period, for or against. Engaging in politics of any kind should absolutely result in your arse getting the heave ho, the exception being you were explicitly invited by our state department to come and express political opinions.
You are wrong. With a handful of exceptions (like voting, running for office, or serving on a jury) non-citizens have the same constitutional rights as citizens, including first-amendment rights and the right to due process.
Non-citizens also are subject to responsibilities. For example, some can be drafted, including permanent residents, refugees, asylum-seekers, and undocumented immigrants.
Re:Canada needs to jump on this (Score:5, Informative)
He has a wife and two kids. I'm not going to judge him for thinking of his family's safety.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Canada needs to jump on this (Score:4, Interesting)
Again... I am not going to judge. Some people might better be able to resist from outside the country. You need both: People within and people from the outside.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Canada needs to jump on this (Score:5, Informative)
America already shit the bed on this one. The Insurrection Act is going to be invoked soon enough to seize military control of the blue states, you'll start seeing Congressional and state Democrats arrested. Sane people will get the hell out of the US before the border closes.
Good luck with that. We'll happily take your academics and scientists, and leave you to sink into right wing religious fanatical shithole the country has always wanted to be.
Re: Canada needs to jump on this (Score:4, Insightful)
And yet now the Administration is floating the claim that China and Russia want Greenland as an obvious cover for the US seizing an ally's sovereignty erritory.
This is a lawless administration running a country filled with morons, fascists and cowards. Threatening allies' sovereignty, even their existence, fabricating crises to get their way. You think that Trump and his heirs are going to let a stupid little thing like a constitution get in the way of destroying their rivals?
Re: (Score:2)
A teacher has more influence teaching than practicing what they teach. If you teach a class to protest, and the important of protesting you get an entire class of additional protestors. If instead you attend the protest, you get one additional protestor. Going to the place where your message can be spread with influence and minimal resistance is the best course of action.
And to be clear I say this as a foreigner who has no fucking idea who Timothy Snyder was, but now that he's leaving America I've learned s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Deserting to Canada... (Score:2)
I'd see it more like advanced thinking.
Re: (Score:2)
But does Canada have the resources or cash to compare to the US? Trump won't be here forever (I assume). These people will find other countries aren't exactly rolling in research funding.
Re: (Score:2)
We don't have as much as the US, but we certainly have enough to fund top researchers and top research institutions.
Re: (Score:3)
I am sure that is intended (Score:5, Interesting)
Scientists are these assholes that come with these things called "facts" and those are inconvenient. Any self-respecting fascist state replaces actual scientists with yes-men that know the real purpose of "science" is exclusively to demonstrate how great the Fuehrer and his people are and that obviously, things are going great and are getting better!
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Facts aren't always what you want them to be. How many facts can you gather about COVID19?
Re: (Score:2)
Mammon is the national religion of the USA; people just won't acknowledge it openly; their actions speak volumes.
Politics is necessary for all but hermits but also does not scale and unfortunately not scaling means major conflicts.
Re:I am sure that is intended (Score:5, Informative)
How many facts can you gather about COVID19?
FACT: Canada did things better than the US as evidenced by thousands fewer deaths per capita.
Re: (Score:2)
OPINION: Using per capita (per person) deaths with a number over 1 is just stupid or a sign of trying to deceive.
Fact: Not correcting for underlying socioeconomic differences when comparing regions is not a sign of deception, it's a sign of stupid people now knowing how numbers work.
Fortunately people who know how numbers work recognise your opinion and have adjusted COVID figures to lots of "per X" numbers for basis of comparison. Unfortunately for you it doesn't change the fact that the USA colossally shat the bed and left a brown stain all the way to the bathroom when it came to COVID19.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: I am sure that is intended (Score:2)
Selection bias? (Score:5, Informative)
This was generic solicitation call for responses. It seems to me that they would tend to get responses from people who were planning to leave.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Because if you actively reply, that means you have some active level of wanting to engage. The target demographic sees a bunch of science funding cut and censorship attached to funding that remains and would want to make the consequences clear.
It tells you that 75% of people actively motivated to reply are dissatisfied with the direction, which is something, but it's not going to extrapolate to the share that actually are likely to leave imminently.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's more a situation of broad question.
I've weighed leaving the US multiple times in my life for multiple reasons. Sometimes it's political, sometimes it's desire to see somewhere else, sometimes it's to be closer to friends.
If I was asked the question "have you weighed leaving the US" with a yes or no, the answer would be yes.
It's not a meaningful question, especially if it's not tracking a trend.
Re: (Score:2)
If the phrasing of the summary was correct, I'm surprised it wasn't 100%. Nearly everybody things about a wild variety of things. The bit in the summary didn't say "were planning to leave", it' said "weight leaving".
Re: (Score:2)
Not just that, it's "contemplating" leaving.So we have people who bother to report who would 'think' about leaving the country with knowledge that stating they might leave has a potential impact that they would desire.
Prediction (Score:3)
This is a very sad and depressing prediction, but it seems to be increasingly likely.
China will become the world leader in science, engineering and technology while the US abandons science and education, vilifies intellectuals and becomes a highly armed, angry nation of poorly educated religious extremists
Re: (Score:2)
An angry nation of poorly educated religious extremists is much easier for a fascist to control than an educated nation of thinkers.
Re:Prediction (Score:5, Insightful)
China tried a similar MAGA-like strategy 65 years ago with the Great Leap Forward, and it famously didn't work out too well. They eventually learned their lesson and moved on.
It looks like Trump, never one to learn from history, is dooming us to repeat it.
Re: (Score:3)
The Great Leap Forward was an effort to claim a glorious future and transform China's primarily agrarian society into an industrial one. It certainly had some similarities to MAGA, like Mao's disdain for experts and basic economic theory. It was fundamentally going the other way though. The US seems intent on recapturing a glorious past where instead of langusihing in an air conditioned office workers get to be real proletariat again, putting in long grease covered hours on the assembly line. Florida has pr
Re:Prediction (Score:5, Informative)
That "agenda" is includes many empty campaign promises. (How are those wars and inflation going? I thought they were over on day 1.)
What he's *actually* doing is implementing Project 2025. That overlaps some of his campaign promises, but additionally includes an anti-intellectual purge of government and industry. Not to mention an isolationist trade war that's going beyond what almost anyone predicted.
The Great Leap Forward was also an anti-intellectual movement that emphasized national self-reliance, (disastrously failed) domestic production, and detachment from international relations. Millions died from the resulting famine, but at least we produce so much extra corn currently that we can probably survive on corn chips for the duration.
Re:Prediction (Score:4, Informative)
For most people, Trump ran on fixing economic woes. He has done nothing but exacerbate them since he took office.
If you think that DEI people are the only intellectuals being purged, you're an ignoramus. He's purging anyone who has any perspective or data that conflicts with or disproves whatever preconceived notions he's pulled out of his ass.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What's amazing is that you don't see to see any. Let's try a simple fill-in-the-blank.
1. The Great Leap Forward was an attempt to turn China into a ______ economy. Similarly, Donny wants to turn the US into a _________ "powerhouse".
2. The Great Leap Forward lead to widespread ________, leading to starvation. Similarly Donny's immigration policies will lead to significant decrease in the production of _______, increasing prices and leading to ________.
3. The Great Leap Forward involved the purge of _____
Re:Prediction (Score:4, Interesting)
Do I win a prize?
I hereby grant you a medal for being the "most detached from reality" poster on this thread. Go you!
Re: (Score:3)
This is a lot like what happened around WWII. America saw the chance to recruit lots of European scientists who were fleeing first from the Nazis and then from the war. That's how America ended up dominating science for much of the 20th century. Now it looks like the same thing will happen in reverse. It's sad for American science, but a great opportunity for the rest of the world.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Yes. And it's important to remember that the US derives most its scientific strength from immigrants. It did so in WW2 with those escaping Europe (esp. Germany). And it is somewhat true today with many many PhD students being immigrants born abroad.
Also, the Deep Learning / LLM revolution we're seeing today comes from the University of Toronto. Not a US University.
If scientists flee, the top world talent stops coming (do you thing US high schools are producing geniuses?) the results will soon be apparent.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Prediction or reality? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why have American scientists been forced to set up bio labs such as the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China? Because American Bible based laws outlaw research.
When the leading English newspaper in the EU is writing about the freedom found in Chinese Universities, America should be ashamed.
It will be interesting to see what enrollment of foreign students in the US looks like.
https://www.irishtimes.com/wor... [irishtimes.com]
And other countries are preparing to welcome these (Score:2)
The EU is already formulating a program to welcome exiled top scientists with open arms and funding. China has had a similar program for some years already. If the brain drain really gets traction, this will harm the scientific competitiveness of the US for decades (but the university and college football teams will remain awesome and continue to make good television).
Welcome to Canada, eh (Score:2)
I spoke to my Canadian countrymen, and 75% of us would like you scientists to join us up here in Canada. As 'new Canadians', you'll be given 1 free jug of maple syrup when you board the plane, and then when you land you'll have access to:
- Tours of Justin Beeber's and Ryan Reynolds' childhood homes
- Maple-leaf adorned long johns, available in most department stores
- 1 free touque every Christmas
And much, much, more, eh.
We Are Living In Trump's Idiocracy (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
If i was rich i would leave (Score:3)
Selection bias (Score:2)
While I sympathize with the message that this poll is showing. The article says "75% of those who CHOSE to fill out the poll". Meaning there's selection bias.
I'm surprised Nature is using an unscientific method of polling to promote their opinion about the situation, regardless of the merit of their opinion on the matter.
Re: (Score:2)
Nature aina what it used to be. They are grinding out political narratives by the mllisecond.
put up (Score:2)
Put up or shut up. Let's see how many of those guys leave.
Fine, go... (Score:3)
Scientists cited concerns over research funding and the general treatment of science as contributing factors for their reasoning.
So, am I to believe that 75.3% of "scientists" are federally-funded?
And out of curiosity, exactly how is "science" being mistreated? Last time Trump was in office didn't he do everything Fauci recommended? [reuters.com] (Isn't Fauci "Science" [forbes.com])
Re:Okay (Score:5, Insightful)
As a Canadian, I will happily pay a bit more in taxes if we can get your researchers. 'tis a no-brainer.
Re: (Score:2)
As a Canadian, I will happily pay a bit more in taxes if we can get your researchers. 'tis a no-brainer.
Sorry, Trump is trying to monopolize the "no-brainer" demographic.
Re: (Score:2)
I did know that. If I thought the government would use it to enhance our research facilities, I might even do it. But I need an announcement first.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Okay (Score:5, Insightful)
You know you can already send an extra check to your Dept. of Revenue if you'd like to pay more in taxes. You don't have to wait for them to raise taxes for everybody. You do that right?
Everyone should endeavour to pay their legal minimum of taxes. If the government doesn't take in enough revenue to pay its bills, then it should raise taxes, cut spending, or borrow. There's a legitimate debate over how to balance those three. But what the government cannot do is depend on people just voluntarily sending in a check. That's just stupid.
And BTW, it's called the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA. Not the Dept. of Revenue.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Okay (Score:4, Interesting)
Right. Show me one billionaire, or billion/trillion dollar company that would even consider it. For example, Tesla, who eared $2B in the US last year, and paid *$0* in taxes.
Re: (Score:2)
In the US, the question is rapidly becoming whether they will work at all, or whether the right wing extremists will so thoroughly take over the halls of academia and research that they'll be hounded out anyways.
Re:Okay (Score:5, Insightful)
They know what we've forgotten: Spending in the right places more than pays for itself. For example, studies have show that spending in early education return between $4-$17 for every dollar invested.
It turns out that a lot of government spending is like that. Even spending on NASA [nasa.gov], which you probably think is a waste.
If you want to find fraud and waste, look no further than so-called 'public-private partnerships'. Privatization of public services is inherently wasteful as every dollar in profit is a dollar of taxpayer money that was spent not providing the product or service we're paying for. They're like leaches, sucking up as much public money as they can while doing as little as possible. Government provided services, without the profit motive, are frighteningly efficient. Just compare the post office to any other delivery services. No one else even comes close. If you want efficiency, get rid of the corporate leaches like Elmo and pals, not the dedicated public servants who took a pay cut to help their country run more effectively. Don't be a sucker.
Oh, just FYI, no one is buying that "government spending is inherently inflationary" bullshit. You know, because it's obviously bullshit.
Re: (Score:2)
The tax cuts should be scrapped; they're transparent bribes. I'm OK with giving up on universal dental care and instead making it means-tested. And I don't mind paying high taxes in Canada because I get value for my money. Our government is actually competent and doesn't do stupid things like fire essential employees and then desperately try to hire them back, or discuss military operations on personal devices.
If our government and system were as dysfunctional and downright malevolent as the current US
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But there is also a lot of useless money being spent and eventually that gravy train needs to end.
Right... but you can't actually verify that. And you wanna know something that hasn't happened yet? Elon has not recused himself for ANYTHING.
You need to stop pretending, too.
Re: Okay (Score:3)
> Right... but you can't actually verify that.
You can, actually. Just take a quick look at grants.gov .
There is a very good chance after a few minutes you will find something that most will find preposterous.
Re: (Score:2)
Sigh. The pretending continues...
Re: (Score:2)
"There is a very good chance after a few minutes you will find something that most will find preposterous."
"Mind you, I don't have any actual examples to hand, but you'll find something preposterous, I'm sure of it."
Re: (Score:2)
It's quite reasonable to not have any examples at hand. It's also almost certainly a true statement. Different people find different things preposterous, And since they're judging something by it's title, you can evaluate their ability to decide appropriately.
Re: (Score:2)
It's the same people who think "they" are out to get them. Why or for what purpose is never explained.
Dag'gon gub'mint is always spendin' on stuff that don't make no sense! What's a Oncogenomics anyway? Is that them drag queens in bathrooms? Elon will put a quick end to that, I tell ya what. Enough with the Onco... Oco... Obamanomics!
Re: (Score:2)
There is a very good chance after a few minutes you will find something that most will find preposterous.
I can say that, whenever Trump opens his mouth, within a few minutes I can count on hearing something preposterous.
Re: (Score:2)
There is a very good chance after a few minutes you will find something that most will find preposterous.
I suspect different people will find different things "preposterous" depending on a variety of factors, like education, educational level, politics, etc... and will always find something they don't like and/or don't understand to complain about. That doesn't mean it's actually preposterous though, even if "most" think it is.
For example, my mother thought that studying algae blooms and die-offs in the ocean was dumb and a waste of money, until I explained that about 70% of our oxygen comes from algae --
Re: (Score:3)
The reason you enjoy GPS today is because the research of NASA.
Re: (Score:2)
Well. NASA was definitely involved, but much of it was funded by the military long before it was made commercially available. And, IIRC, the MÃssbauer clocks used to make it work came out of Germany. (Not sure about that, though. It could have been California. But it came out of a university physics department.)
Re:Okay (Score:5, Informative)
The reason you enjoy GPS today is because the research of NASA.
Or a LOT of other things: NASA spin-off technologies [wikipedia.org]
This page summarizes their favorite top 10 NASA inventions -- though the link says 5 :-)
Top 10 NASA Inventions [howstuffworks.com]
Memory Foam
Anti-corrosion Coating
ArterioVision
Cochlear Implants
Scratch-resistant Eyeglass Lenses
Remediating the Environment: Emulsified Zero-valent Iron
Insulin Pump
Lifeshears
Charge-coupled Device
Water Filters
Re: Okay (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Okay (Score:5, Insightful)
Ad hominem labelling instead of engaging with the point being made. Typical libtard!
See? anyone can do this.
Let's not.
Especially, not on Slashdot.
Re: Okay (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Especially, not on Slashdot
You must be ... old ... here. Slashdot isn't the bastion of intelligence it once was.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Vital research on creating transgender animals (Score:5, Insightful)
Too bad scientists can't create a cure for ignorant morons who don't know the difference between transgenic mice [nih.gov] and transgender mice.
Re: (Score:2)
Too bad scientists can't create a cure for ignorant morons who don't know the difference between transgenic mice [nih.gov] and transgender mice.
Those are the people that deleted photos of the WW2 bomber "Enola Gay" - that dropped the first atomic bomb on Japan, and named after the pilot's mother - from DoD archives -- and are probably in a tizzy about transport planes -- so the cure would have to be very powerful...
Enola Gay Aircraft—And Other Historic Items—Inaccurately Targeted Under Pentagon’s Anti-DEI Purge [forbes.com]
(I think the photos have been restored, after they got caught being - to be charitable - stupid.)
Re:Vital research on creating transgender animals (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a great myth about Thomas Edison that applies here. It is said that, upon demonstrating that he could move the needle of a compass using a spool of wire (demonstrating electromagnetism), a woman in the audience approached him and asked "Well what good is that?" to which he is replied "Madam, what good is a newborn child?"
America has been at the forefront of technology and science for the last century BECAUSE it allowed and encourage all kinds of research without knowing precisely how it was going to become useful. It used to be that European scientists fled to America (not the other way around) for fear of their government and an opportunity to research in peace (where do you think you got the brainpower for the Atomic Bomb?).
What's going on right now goes beyond changing funding priorities: it's an attack on intellectual and academic freedoms. Even if you're personally happy to save $10 million (a pittance in the big picture) on research you don't personally see the value in, do you not see that you're not just throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you're in the process of tearing down the whole bathhouse?
Re:Vital research on creating transgender animals (Score:4, Informative)
It was actually Englisman Michael Faraday who was responsible for the "newborn baby" quote. [newscientist.com]
I agree with the rest of your post.
Re: (Score:2)
Per the link I shared, and other google hits I found, the story might have originated with Benjamin Franklin, well before Faraday did his work. In any case, not Thomas Edison. Electromagnetism was already being industrialized when he was around.
Re: Vital research on creating transgender animals (Score:2, Insightful)
Between me, the wife, and the extended family, we've been in and around academic, corporate, and government science for a combined several decades.
My observations:
1. Most research goes nowhere. This is not unexpected since it's research.
2. Almost all *researchers* play public relations games in the following ways:
A) they are inventivized by the funding process to claim that their particular little bit of speculation is cool, splashy, and a valuable contribution to the field.
B) they are incentivized by their
Re: ...and decided not to. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
The "sentiment" is manufactured. That's my point.
Show me an exodus. Show me even a vaguely sizable group that has actually departed, or at least filed applications to emigrate. There is none. They all say; "That's the final straw. I'm totally leaving!" and then do nothing.
The survey respondents may have weighed leaving. But, they ALL abandoned the thought and chose to stay. But we are force fed this narrative that there is a huge brain drain in progress. That all the intelligent people are leaving. NONE ARE
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not saying that there has been a mass exodus. I'm also no psychic, so I can't tell you there WILL be a mass exodus. But the "sentiment" that we're discussing is people "weighing" the idea of leaving. By your own admission, people are "weighing" leaving, that is not a manufactured sentiment.
To suggest, however, that they have all made the decision to stay is premature. It's been what... 2 months into the new presidential term? With the exception of extreme circumstances, dropping everything to leave wit
Re:...and decided not to. (Score:4, Informative)
Better in the U.S. reasons varied from retirement benefits, available medical services, conveniences and availability of goods...
retirement benefits -- The only government retirement benefit is Social Security, and the Trump administration appears to be threatening it.
available medical services -- The USA has great medical services. It does not have great medical insurance. You need to get a job that offers good insurance, or wait to retire and get medicare. The USA is the only industrialized nation that does not have a government-sponsored health plan for all legal residents.
conveniences and availability of goods -- Not sure what you mean. Other countries have lots of these.
The USA is my home. I worked and retired here. Despite current shenanigans in Washington, my current plan is to stay. But let's not forget that when it comes to rankings for happiness [worldpopul...review.com] or quality of life, [usnews.com] the USA doesn't even make the top 10.