Eminent Officials Say NASA Facilities Some of the 'Worst' They've Ever Seen (arstechnica.com) 118
Ars Technica's Stephen Clark reports: A panel of independent experts reported this week that NASA lacks funding to maintain most of its decades-old facilities, could lose its engineering prowess to the commercial space industry, and has a shortsighted roadmap for technology development. "NASA's problem is it always seems to have $3 billion more program than it has of funds," said Norm Augustine, chair of the National Academies panel chartered to examine the critical facilities, workforce, and technology needed to achieve NASA's long-term strategic goals and objectives. Augustine said a similar statement could sum up two previous high-level reviews of NASA's space programs that he chaired in 1990 and 2009. But the report released Tuesday put NASA's predicament in stark terms.
"In NASA's case, the not-uncommon tendency in a constrained budget environment to prioritize initiating new missions as opposed to maintaining and upgrading existing support assets has produced an infrastructure that would not be viewed as acceptable under most industrial standards," the panel wrote in its report. "In fact, during its inspection tours, the committee saw some of the worst facilities many of its members have ever seen." All of NASA's centers have facilities the agency considers marginal, but Johnson Space Center in Houston has the facilities with the worst average score. Johnson oversees astronaut training and is home to NASA's Mission Control Center for the International Space Station and future Artemis lunar missions. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, which develops and operates many of NASA's robotic interplanetary probes, and Stennis Space Center in Mississippi, used for rocket engine testing, are the only centers without a poor infrastructure score.
These ratings cover things like buildings and utilities, not the specific test rigs or instruments inside them. "You can have a world-class microscope and materials lab, but if the building goes down, that microscope is useless to you," [Erik Weiser, NASA's director of facilities and real estate] told the National Academies panel in a meeting last year. The panel recommended that Congress direct NASA to establish an annually replenished revolving working capital fund to pay for maintenance and infrastructure upgrades. Other government agencies use similar funds for infrastructure support. "This is something that will require federal legislation," said Jill Dahlburg, a member of the National Academies panel and former superintendent of the space science division at the Naval Research Laboratory.
"In NASA's case, the not-uncommon tendency in a constrained budget environment to prioritize initiating new missions as opposed to maintaining and upgrading existing support assets has produced an infrastructure that would not be viewed as acceptable under most industrial standards," the panel wrote in its report. "In fact, during its inspection tours, the committee saw some of the worst facilities many of its members have ever seen." All of NASA's centers have facilities the agency considers marginal, but Johnson Space Center in Houston has the facilities with the worst average score. Johnson oversees astronaut training and is home to NASA's Mission Control Center for the International Space Station and future Artemis lunar missions. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, which develops and operates many of NASA's robotic interplanetary probes, and Stennis Space Center in Mississippi, used for rocket engine testing, are the only centers without a poor infrastructure score.
These ratings cover things like buildings and utilities, not the specific test rigs or instruments inside them. "You can have a world-class microscope and materials lab, but if the building goes down, that microscope is useless to you," [Erik Weiser, NASA's director of facilities and real estate] told the National Academies panel in a meeting last year. The panel recommended that Congress direct NASA to establish an annually replenished revolving working capital fund to pay for maintenance and infrastructure upgrades. Other government agencies use similar funds for infrastructure support. "This is something that will require federal legislation," said Jill Dahlburg, a member of the National Academies panel and former superintendent of the space science division at the Naval Research Laboratory.
Opposite problem (Score:5, Interesting)
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you're a cost center. no one actually likes learning so the university doles out as little as possible to keep the teaching welfare running to you.
real estate otoh is worth $$$$, even more than the athletics department or business school!
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Old can actually be good, if it's built form the right materials. I personally think that any government building that serves a function that is expected to be needed for a long time, such as a town hall, office and administration buildings and so on should be built like they were 200 years ago, with good looking stone facades and architecture which is built to last a few hundred years , rather than making it out of the cheapest materials possible that will look terrible in 20 years time.
Whatever you build,
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" vast amounts of money are spent on vanity building projects"
Are those funds discretionary, or are they dedicated for a specific purpose?
There was that recent example of Charlie Munger donating money to universities toward dormitory buildings... on the condition that they use the plans he designed as he fancied himself an amateur architect. Not only was the design bad, it cost so much more per bed than other designs you were probably better off turning down the money.
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>Are those funds discretionary, or are they dedicated for a specific purpose?
There are issues with directed funds too. Say there was a legitimate need for a new building - those funds may have been directed, but money is the ultimate fungible token, and what that directed money really did is freed up money on the existing budget to go elsewhere.
In other words, directed funding shouldn't be a major issue so long as the direction isn't towards something completely unnecessary. Or, as in the case you cite
Augustine's Laws (Score:2)
Norm has been involved in and commenting on government bureaucracy for a long time...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Criminal failure. (Score:4, Funny)
For not using the classic "Houston, we have a problem..."! Which would have been perfectly relevant, lol!!! The authors of this story could so easily just used that.
this is a management problem (Score:2)
You have a budget. That's all you have. Live within your means.
I know, that's a crazy fucking idea.
No, that does mean you don't get to do everything you want, that's true. Of course that's true for everyone, government agencies just somehow seem to believe it doesn't apply to them.
Re:this is a management problem (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a very common management problem. Maintenance is not sexy. You don't have a press conference to show off the maintenance department. Even worse Management can defer maintenance for awhile without problems, then the operators get clever about working around the deficiencies, then Normalization of Deviation occurs, then eventually there is an incident.
In my former job an incident could bring in The Chemical Safety Board. Boeing finally got a call from the FAA. And Boars Head just had a plant shut down for listeria contamination.
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To be fair, the budget keeps getting cut from above. Then they have to start choosing between the many long term projects that were all funded previously.
On the other hand, NASA hasn't been an engineering outfit for a long time now. It's primarily a science outfit. So the whole article is a tad out of touch.
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In the real world, in a profit business, you get your Wally types and PHB types (from the Dilbert cartoons, they are based on true story). Occasionally, people who have quit or died stay on the payroll for years. Plus, people whose productivity is negative.
Example of how Govt can't run a business (Score:1)
"This is something that will require federal legislation"
Right. Adding more paperwork and oversight is going to fix dilapidated buildings? Let's see how well that works out . . .
NASA is old, grey and useless.
Dissolve NASA as an Engineering organization. Period.
Let it exist as an agency to provide direction and issue grants/contracts for private companies to achieve NASA goals.
They need to give up trying to use old clock punching DEI engineers to do what a private company can do with 10% of the budget.
Re:Example of how Govt can't run a business (Score:5, Informative)
That's the right wing viewpoint. It ignores the fact that right wing politicians using NASA for pork barrelling while continuously undercutting NASA's ability to perform are why it has such high expenditures.
The people at NASA are incredibly dedicated and talented individuals who do amazing things despite this, but there are limits.
Re:Example of how Govt can't run a business (Score:5, Informative)
The government doesn’t exist to turn a profit. The government exists to serve people.
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The government doesnâ(TM)t exist to turn a profit. The government exists to serve "people".
Sorry, you misspelled "itself" at the end there. I really think a lot of people in government think it is the be-all and end-all for all things, according to itself. "People" are just the ones to be ordered around, and pay for things. It shouldn't make a profit but it should at least plan to break even at some point -- but inflation (cheaper money in the future to pay for "real" money NOW) is just SO appealing. And look at all of the "good" things we can do NOW, while when the bill comes due in the futu
Sell the unused facilities (Score:1)
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Consolidate operations, sell the unused space. However, thinking of obvious solutions to common industrial problems is not the forte of a place like NASA.
This is an idiotic suggestion because at some point they will need these facilities. They aren't abandoned, they just aren't currently in use. It's FAAAR cheaper to clean up an unmaintained facility than to sell it and then buy it again. They aren't housing tools that drop in price every few years.
Your suggestion would be the end of NASA.
Who cares what he thinks? (Score:1)
Eminem should stick to what he's good at - rap music - and stay out of rocket science.
Once-great NASA has turned... (Score:2)
... into a jobs program for career bureaucrats and a political mess, where jobs are spread across every congressional district
The SLS is a terrible design, totally motivated and mandated by politics
We need a space agency that cares about space
How does everything devolve to a racist discussion (Score:2)
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that's right, the building is the problem, moron (Score:1)
NASA is a whipping boy for Congress. (Score:2)
Perverse incentives, perverse outcomes (Score:2, Interesting)
NASA has just spent the past three years high-fiving itself over the JWST. The JWST was fifteen years late and 10 billion over budget. This became evident early on, as did the root cause: an overly ambitious concept, which begat an overly ambitious design that ran headlong into the technological limitations of the day.
The thing that got papered over is that those limitations still exist in this day. JWST did not come up with a faster way of maying crypgenic berylium mirrors; they spent a shit load of money
Two figures that say it all (Score:2)
Total entertainment spending, primarily in professional sports and related areas, for 2023: USD 557Bn
Total funding fed to NASA in the same period: USD 73Bn
We really don't appear to care as much as we're claiming.
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompet (Score:1, Insightful)
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompet (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
For some, complaining is an art that they are very proud of. Sad.
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skeptical of do as I say orgs and people (Score:2)
just a healthy skepticism of these rich organizations, their talk only employees always telling the rest of the population how to spend tax money, what social programs to have, what science research to fund, etc....
when those same rich organizations and their talk only employees never ever make the first step by giving up their own money.
Once those rich organizations and their talk only employees go first, then we can have a discussion.
And in cases, like this, where the organization gets paid by the federal
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It's a competency crisis and many have been warning about it coming for years. Well here we are. It starts in the education system where all standards have been lowered to the point of non-existent in the name of diversity, equality, feelings, nobody being left behind and "everyone must have a college degree" while being fueled by greed in ever-larger student loans for everyone and lavish facilities/salaries for administrators Grading standards = gone. Admission standards = gone. Graduation standards = g
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people are hired because they are friends or family, that's corruption
classism because they only hire affluent people
the incompetence is self-evident
we live in a corrupt and classist society
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people are hired because they are friends or family, that's corruption
classism because they only hire affluent people
Unlike you I actually work in this sector, (private, not government) and I haven't seen any of this. At all. I myself am not particularly affluent, and even though we're paid well now that we're here, (like...really well) it's still not enough to pay for California's shitty, dated and overpriced housing. Then again, nobody who lives here can, even the people who own such housing. If you want to complain about elitism in any form, complain about the politicians. They get to vote for their own pay. LA city co
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well if it isn't the zionist and the atheist pretending there's no corruption, no nepotism and no partonsim despite all the evidence
talk about denial of the complicit
not to even mention how defensive and unreasonable you are going after people you disagree with
classic trolling
keep it up, it only confirms my suspicions about you and how much you resent being called out, that's why you can't let this go
guilty as hell
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
well if it isn't the zionist and the atheist pretending there's no corruption, no nepotism and no partonsim despite all the evidence
This is not accurate. Nepotism happens, but it's not the institutional thing that you need it to be. Corruption happens, especially in politics. But again, it's not as systemic as you need it to be. As for your third word, put down the crack pipe for a few hours and then try again.
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Hey, are you here and still trolling? and you're really claiming corruption isn't systemic? Now that's denial and the point of view of privilege; of course people will defend any economy that advantages them. By the way, insults speak volumes about the insulter. Just saying.
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Hey, are you here and still trolling?
What was your first clue, Sherlock?
and you're really claiming corruption isn't systemic?
Not here.
Now that's denial and the point of view of privilege; of course people will defend any economy that advantages them.
And yet here you are.
By the way, insults speak volumes about the insulter. Just saying.
So then why do you always start with them?
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I don't need to be insulting, you've done that to yourself
I suggest your review your words and your intent
I doubt you're able but there's always hope, isn't there?
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
I suggest your review your words and your intent
You're creating an intent that isn't even there. Another sign of schizophrenia.
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You're creating an intent that isn't even there. Another sign of schizophrenia.
Your constant stream of abuse speaks volumes about your mental state and your valuation of others
good luck with that
just saying
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
Your constant stream of abuse speaks volumes about your mental state and your valuation of others
And yet you keep coming back for more. What does that say about yours?
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It doesn't say much other than I'm not going away, I'm simply unwilling to concede the last word and it amuses me to see how long you will persist, besides, I'm bored and and troll thumping is a game I enjoy playing. However, the question I have is why do you still feel the need to attack others? Is disagreement so unacceptable to you? Just asking.
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It doesn't say much other than I'm not going away
Oh but it does. This is a well understood phenomena in fact:
https://journals.sagepub.com/d... [sagepub.com]
You see, no normal person would consider words on the internet with no capability of causing harm to be abuse. But you're not normal...are you? You encounter words merely said in passing without being aimed at any particular person as an insult to you personally. You've done it multiple times already. Past trauma does that to a person. And the fact that you heard it intended specifically at you reminds me of yet ano
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Language can be abusive no matter where, as can attitudes. As well, I see you keep trying to insult me. Carry right on. Please, don't let anything stop you. Remember, it is particularly important for you to get the last word where you are in some doubts as to the merits of your case. The last word will serve as a clinching argument that will make up for any deficiencies in your logic. Achieving the last word now also brings the advantage that you may subsequently point to your success in this debate as the
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
As well, I see you keep trying to insult me.
Trying what? Given you've labeled it abuse, it seems I've caused you emotional and/or physiological harm to you already.
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One does not need to be harmed to see harm. Sticks and stones ...
if the shoe fits
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
Sticks and stones
Funny enough, these exact words were on my mind every time you got bent out of shape over anything I said, even for things not directed at you. Evidently you're always being hurt by words.
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Sticks and stones
Funny enough, these exact words were on my mind every time you got bent out of shape over anything I said, even for things not directed at you. Evidently you're always being hurt by words.
Of course, you can assume whatever you like, but when you're ready to stop deflecting, just let me know, ok?
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
I didn't assume anything, you literally referred to words said in passing as being insulting, not once but multiple times. No reason to do that if the words didn't hurt you.
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I didn't assume anything, you literally referred to words said in passing as being insulting, not once but multiple times. No reason to do that if the words didn't hurt you.
Well, if it makes you feel better to think so, go right ahead, that would certainly be par for your course, wouldn't it?
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
Doesn't make me feel anything, just a fact.
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not to even mention how revealing vulgarity can be
just saying
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by the way, you aren't a senior manager at NASA are you? that would certainly explain a lot of this venomous verbiage we're seeing from you
just asking
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there's no need for me to get in a mud fight
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You're already muddy and you've already lost, so why bother?
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the more you try to put others down, the worse it makes you look
if you really thought about it, you'd see but I doubt you put in the effort that self-reflection requires
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oh, by the way Netanyahu is a war criminal, shame on you for supporting a criminal regime
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompet (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why I avoid hiring white men if at all possible. Maybe the person is the second best candidate and not the first, but at least I won't have to worry about a toxic team because of someone who does nothing but whine and complain because he has to work with one of "those" people.
You're nothing more than a racist calling other people racist. Not hiring white people unless you have to is identical to not hiring (fill in whatever race you hate - in your case, you hate so called "white" people.
That's why a person like me who believes that race is a social construct can sit back and come to clarity that people like you might think they are inclusive, but are anything but. You are merely a racist who hates those you consider "white".
Textbook extreme racist. Now explain how white horses and black horses are different races.
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That's why a person like me who believes that race is a social construct can sit back
The problem with "people like you" is you appear to believe that because race isn't real racism also doesn't exist. Except of course you're not 100% consistent and believe that only some sort of double reverse uno racism against white people exists:
You're nothing more than a racist calling other people racist
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You're nothing more than a racist calling other people racist
I was waiting for someone to pull out that one. I'm not at all surprised that it was you.
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Lol I was literally quoting you there.
You are the one who pulled it hahahah
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Regardless of who invented the words, you posted it as your own retort. ie the common trope: I'm using your own quote with *you* as the subject this time!
The backpedaling on it, is pathetic.
He is kinda pathetic.
After all, serviscope minor before that posted:
"The problem with "people like you" is you appear to believe that because race isn't real racism also doesn't exist. Except of course you're not 100% consistent and believe that only some sort of double reverse uno racism against white people exists"
It's an odd thing. I don't know whether he can't read, or just has weakest troll ability I've ever seen. The same with drinkypoo.
In their fever dreams, they believe that I'm saying t
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You are racist as well - you just choose to hate a different "race".
I am probably a lot of negative things, but racist is not one of them, because I don't believe in race. I believe that colorism is real, and I could potentially be colorist; I have opinions about the relative merits of different cultures and religion, so I can easily be predjudiced against people on those bases. But race doesn't have a real basis, it's totally subjective invented bullshit which was created by white people to justify oppressing brown people. And the fact that I'm white AF (even the part of m
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
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You are the problem of the new world.
Enjoy the wasteland you create . . .
Re:classism create corruption that breed incompete (Score:5, Interesting)
And you are basing your "insight" on what, precisely? It sounds like the problem is Congress, they approve the funds for specific projects. And they are not funding infrastructure. That's no surprise as the R's in Congress do not "get" infrastructure preferring to fund their fat cat donors. And the things you mention are things NASA has no money for, and they'd need to be approved by Congress. So get out there and demand Congress raises your taxes to cover them.
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And you are basing your "insight" on what, precisely? It sounds like the problem is Congress, they approve the funds for specific projects. And they are not funding infrastructure. That's no surprise as the R's in Congress do not "get" infrastructure preferring to fund their fat cat donors. And the things you mention are things NASA has no money for, and they'd need to be approved by Congress. So get out there and demand Congress raises your taxes to cover them.
Musk fans believe that Spacex should have all US space activities.
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congress is a problem, there's no doubt about it, but the rot not only starts at the top, it goes all the way down now
it starts with a few bad apples, soon the entire barrel is rotten
NASA is self-serving and irresponsible, they don't do anything except when it comes to feathering their own beds, these bureaucrats are not capable of producing useful infrastructure as there is zero penalties for their failures. Indeed, they just pretend it's 'experience' which then justifies even loftier titles, salaries, be
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompet (Score:3)
Itâ(TM)s much more simple than that. NASA got lots of funding in the 60s, for some big project or other. That means a lot of their infrastructure was built in the 60s. That means a lot of their infrastructure is reaching end of life. Without a big budget, it canâ(TM)t be replaced.
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Yep. At the height of Apollo, NASA's budget was ten times higher than it is today. They built tons of infrastructure that was useful for getting this massive project done within the timeframe, and then had to shrink the organization and its expenses once the massive project was done.
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The United States spent $25.8 billion on Project Apollo between 1960 and 1973, or approximately $257 billion when adjusted for inflation to 2020 dollars. ~ https://www.planetary.org/spac... [planetary.org]
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NASA's budget for financial year (FY) 2020 is $22.6 billion. It represents 0.48% of the $4.7 trillion the United States plans to spend in the fiscal year. Since its inception the United States has spent nearly US$650 billion (in nominal dollars) on NASA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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when NASA isn't delivering anything tangible but vanity science projects, is it any wonder the funding is slowly getting cut?
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people get the government they deserve
things happen, despite government besides you're generalizing
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Perhaps you could amend that statement to, "Voters get the government that the corporations lobby for." That also says a lot about corporate accountability.
Do you believe that voters deserve to be ridden roughsh
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government doesn't need to subsidize anything, just open up space for private development and stop supporting corrupt and polluting industries on our planet ...
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NASA in a sense is already in the process of being broken up, starting with the Commercial Orbital Transportation Service and the Commercial Crew Program in the aftermath of the Shuttle retirement. Basically every president of either party since George W Bush has increased the privatization of NASA.
Accelerating this or balkanizing the remaining functions of NASA into separate competing agencies is not going to fix the problem that there isn't any funding for basics like tearing down obsolete facilities or
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that's because bigger is not better. NASA needs to be broken up as it's lived long past the point of usefulness, now it's a just a shell of its former self being used by selfish, greedy and unethical rich people so they can get a free ride at taxpayers expense
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Well, that's a different argument than breaking it up would fix this.
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not really, decentralization would eliminated the top level bureaucracy which isn't needed as this moves to a market driven economy
NASA should be building a real rotating space station, not a funding exercise
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Seriously, you think breaking NASA up into a bunch of petty fiefdoms will get a megastructure in space built?
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Seriously, you think breaking NASA up into a bunch of petty fiefdoms will get a megastructure in space built?
Yup, I do. It's not the solution but it's the first step towards one. NASA is just too self-serving and earthbound.
Re:classism create corruption that breed incompete (Score:4, Insightful)
Yup, we've already learned everything there is about the universe, no need for further research.
This is the classic example of how Republicans get rid of government "waste". Slowly gut the budget until the agency can't do anything useful and then say that we need to get rid of them because they're useless.
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Yup, we've already learned everything there is about the universe, no need for further research.
This is the classic example of how Republicans get rid of government "waste". Slowly gut the budget until the agency can't do anything useful and then say that we need to get rid of them because they're useless.
we need to feed the starving and house the homeless before we enrich the entitled and fund their vanity science projects
no one is against science or research but there are priorities
if people want to research whatever, fine, but they can do it on their own dime and time, public funds should be used to solve public problems not divverted so privileged people can play with taxpayer funded toys
Left versus right is just divide and conquer while all our political parties are owned and controlled by upper class i
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notice how unpopular this opinion is
truth hurts
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I don't see any truth in your comment. You're basically just asking for a mix of what somebody is already working on and pie in the sky shit that may not even have a useful purpose with existing technology.
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sadly you can't see truth because you refuse to open your eyes
the sleep of denial by the complicit
carry on troll
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompet (Score:2)
There's no truth to this or any of your conspiracy theories. You're just a schizo dude. You can't tell truth from your own imagination.
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Yet another ad hominem but of course you never explain or support your claims, refute mine or even try to 'counter-argue' but you can try to pick a fight and bring me down to your level, no thanks
I'm quite happy to let this 'discussion' speak for itself
self-reflection is key
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
Yet another ad hominem but of course you never explain or support your claims, refute mine or even try to 'counter-argue' but you can try to pick a fight and bring me down to your level, no thanks
You're a moron. You started with the ad-hominem first. Look at your own non-arguments: "refuse to open your eyes", "sleep denial of the complicit" is by your own intent not meant to be refuted, so why would I even bother? That's why it's called a logical fallacy. You invoke them nonstop in every post you make. Then you lose your shit when I respond in kind and beat you at your own game.
Besides, that's yet more evidence that you're a schizo.
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rotflmao
by the way, did you know it's exceeding bad manners to make fun of mental illness
obviously not
just saying
I find it amazing you don't see the irony in all of this
so be it
Re: classism create corruption that breed incompe (Score:2)
by the way, did you know it's exceeding bad manners to make fun of mental illness
I'm not making fun of anything, I'm explaining why you're standing alone in your assertion of truth.
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like I said, there's no need for me to do anything, which each post you sink lower of your own accord
hoisted on your own petard
just saying
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and so is self-honesty