Fluoride At Twice the Recommended Limit Is Linked To Lower IQ In Kids (apnews.com) 153
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Associated Press: A U.S. government report expected to stir debate concluded that fluoride in drinking water at twice the recommended limit is linked with lower IQ in children. The report, based on an analysis of previously published research, marks the first time a federal agency has determined -- "with moderate confidence" -- that there is a link between higher levels of fluoride exposure and lower IQ in kids. While the report was not designed to evaluate the health effects of fluoride in drinking water alone, it is a striking acknowledgment of a potential neurological risk from high levels of fluoride. Fluoride strengthens teeth and reduces cavities by replacing minerals lost during normal wear and tear, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The addition of low levels of fluoride to drinking water has long been considered one of the greatest public health achievements of the last century.
The long-awaited report released Wednesday comes from the National Toxicology Program, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. It summarizes a review of studies, conducted in Canada, China, India, Iran, Pakistan, and Mexico, that concludes that drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter is consistently associated with lower IQs in kids. The report did not try to quantify exactly how many IQ points might be lost at different levels of fluoride exposure. But some of the studies reviewed in the report suggested IQ was 2 to 5 points lower in children who'd had higher exposures.
Since 2015, federal health officials have recommended a fluoridation level of 0.7 milligrams per liter of water, and for five decades before the recommended upper range was 1.2. The World Health Organization has set a safe limit for fluoride in drinking water of 1.5. The report said that about 0.6% of the U.S. population -- about 1.9 million people -- are on water systems with naturally occurring fluoride levels of 1.5 milligrams or higher. The 324-page report did not reach a conclusion about the risks of lower levels of fluoride, saying more study is needed. It also did not answer what high levels of fluoride might do to adults.
The long-awaited report released Wednesday comes from the National Toxicology Program, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. It summarizes a review of studies, conducted in Canada, China, India, Iran, Pakistan, and Mexico, that concludes that drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter is consistently associated with lower IQs in kids. The report did not try to quantify exactly how many IQ points might be lost at different levels of fluoride exposure. But some of the studies reviewed in the report suggested IQ was 2 to 5 points lower in children who'd had higher exposures.
Since 2015, federal health officials have recommended a fluoridation level of 0.7 milligrams per liter of water, and for five decades before the recommended upper range was 1.2. The World Health Organization has set a safe limit for fluoride in drinking water of 1.5. The report said that about 0.6% of the U.S. population -- about 1.9 million people -- are on water systems with naturally occurring fluoride levels of 1.5 milligrams or higher. The 324-page report did not reach a conclusion about the risks of lower levels of fluoride, saying more study is needed. It also did not answer what high levels of fluoride might do to adults.
Purity of essence (Score:5, Funny)
Mandrake, you never see a Commie drinking water.
Re:Purity of essence (Score:4, Informative)
On August 30, CIA director George Tenet received his second briefing about now detained Zacarias Moussaoui, who refused to have his belongings searched and was no longer speaking with the FBI. Tenet was told that French intelligence has connected Moussaoui to extremist behavior in that he has tried to recruit operatives for Chechnya.
In a 26-page report issued earlier from the Minneapolis FBI Special Agent working the Moussaoui case, the conclusion stated that there were "numerous inconsistencies" in Moussaoui's story, that he had taken a two-month-long trip to Pakistan which ended less than three weeks before his coming to the U.S., and that he could not explain the source of $32,000 in his checking account. All of this, the agent wrote in the report, "give cause to believe he is conspiring to commit a terrorist act, especially when this information is combined with his extremist views ... in his sworn statement."
on August 30, according to Tenet, a CIA liaison officer at the FBI contacted a fellow CIA officer on assignment and wrote, "Please excuse my obvious frustration in this case. I am highly concerned that this is not paid the amount of attention it deserves. I do not want to be responsible when they surface again as members [sic] of a suicide terrorist op ... I want an answer from a named FBI group chief for the record on these questions ... several of which I have been asking since a week and a half ago. It is critical that a paper trail be established and clear. If this guy is let go, two years from now he will be talking to a control tower while aiming a 747 at the White House." https://www.newsweek.com/fbi-h... [newsweek.com]
On the plus side (Score:5, Funny)
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Is there any proven positive effect for fluorine in the drinking water? It has to be applied directly on the teeth, as far as I know it does not help to have it inside the body.
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Re: On the plus side (Score:2)
Another "Conspiracy Theory" proven right. (Score:3, Funny)
Dude you double the safe amount of something (Score:3, Insightful)
The key is dosage. Any doctor will tell you that
Re:Dude you double the safe amount of something (Score:4, Informative)
The key is dosage.
People used to drink radioactive water thinking just the right dose would help. Doctor even recommended it https://www.thelancet.com/jour... [thelancet.com]
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So that means fluoride is bad? Or does that only have any meaning in relation to radioactive water and absolutely nothing to do with fluoride?
Fluoride is not radioactive [Re:Dude...] (Score:3)
Fluoride is radioactive.
Huh? No, it's not. Natural fluorine is 19F, which is stable.
The only isotope of fluorine that has a half-life long enough to be noticable would be 18F, but with a half life of only 110 minutes, there's no way that you could fluoridate water with it; it would be gone before you even get it to the water treatment plant.
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Typical water treatment involves sodium fluoride (NaF); sodium fluorosilicate (Na2SiF6); and fluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6), not pure fluorine, the goal is that the substance is ingested and then the fluorine ion gets absorbed by the body. All of those are also used in eg. PET imaging
The isotope used in PET imaging, fluorine-18, is manufactured by using an accelerator to bombard 18O with protons. It is not present in natural Sodium fluoride, Sodium fluorosilicate, or any naturally occurring source that would possibly be sued as the source of fluoridating water. If you don't make it deliberately, it's gone.
which indeed has a relatively fast half life, but half life is exactly that, only half of it has decayed in 2 hours.
And in, say, ten thousand hours, the amount left is so close to zero that you couldn't possibly measure it, particularly because there wasn't any of it there in the first place.
It isn't highly radioactive,
First
Re:Dude you double the safe amount of something (Score:4, Interesting)
The key is dosage. Any doctor will tell you that
Indeed. There is enough stuff where you get good benefits up to a tipping-point. It would be stupid not to consume them in the right dosage.
The second thing is that this study is not conclusive. Is this a temporary effect? What causes it? 2...5 IQ points are really not much, a temporary slightly less good ability to concentrate would already do it. What about adults? What about other factors than IQ, like learning success?
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It would be stupid to (make people) consume something like fluorosilicic acid when fluoride is only supposedly even useful as a topical. It would also be dumb to expect medical altruism from the US government. You'll never have free healthcare in this country, but at least they've got your mouth in mind for some reason.
The real reason is? the easiest way for industry to dispose of toxic materials that they can't legally dump on land or sea, is to make everyone consume them. But people still think questionin
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Is that also the reason we have vitamin D milk and enriched rice?
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2...5 IQ points are really not much, a temporary slightly less good ability to concentrate would already do it.
And then there's the fact that IQ is generally bullshit [slashdot.org] anyway.
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Yes, and that too.
Don't believe every random correlation (Score:4, Informative)
> And no fucking shit it's going to cause problems. Christ if you drink enough dihydrogen monoxide it'll kill you...
The results appear to be pretty bogus. You might want to read here [x.com] as it's pretty questionable why there should be huge results... only in male babies, but not female? Not to mention all the finagling that looks like p-hacking.
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The key is dosage.
And it is hard to control in small kids. They swallow toothpaste, they drink from them tap, etc.
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Man, I am really gonna hate the first time when all the politicians pull off their masks and we see they are actually lizard-people. These conspiracy guys keep nailing it.
So "V The TV Series" becomes "V The Real Life" ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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V was a future history documentary not an entertainment show.
Obviously, the Visitors were merely an allegory to represent the reptilians that have already infiltrated the highest echelons of human society. Kenneth Johnson, much like Steven Spielberg, obviously had some inside information and was simply trying to warn us. Kind of like how Tom Clancy and Frank Spotnitz were using their art (Debt of Honor and The Lone Gunmen, respectively) were trying to warn us of 9/11. The more we ignore these kinds of prophecies the more we are doomed! DOOMED, I tell you! I think Dav
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Man, I am really gonna hate the first time when all the politicians pull off their masks and we see they are actually lizard-people. These conspiracy guys keep nailing it.
How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb!
Maybe this explains a lot (Score:3)
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I doubt it. The practice is not prevalent enough.
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Maybe this explains a lot about why people seem to be getting progressively stupider.
I honestly think that may be environmental. Ever been stuck in a smoke-filled room? It gets harder to think in time. We're shitting up our air enough that I'm sure a lifetime of sucking on exhaust and particulates is slowly dwindling our mental capacity. Granted, there are still some smart people around, but they tend to get shouted down and told to shut up with that stupid shit when they dare say something intelligent, so it seems there are far fewer of them than there actually are.
End Flouridation (Score:3, Informative)
This has been known for some time, yet there are those who think its a conspiracy theory. Actually, its conspiracy fact. There were several studies in China that documented the effect of lowering IQ years ago, and there have been studies showing no benefit to at preventing cavities for ingestion over lifespan. National level comparisons show no benefit to water flouridation between countries with and without (European countries do not force medicate). The evidence for topical is clear, but topical application is not ingestion. Unlike water flouridation, topical is an individual choice, and flouride toothpaste is ubiqituous anyway and would give the actual proven benefit without forced medication or ingestion. The government needs to let people make their own decisions on medication and stop the unethical and illegal forced medication. If a doctor were found prescribing medications to someone who he had never seen that would lead to trouble. But you have clown city councils with no medical degrees prescribing a medication to people they have never seen and without their consent. See the problem?
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There has never been any evidence that ingesting fluoride in drinking water improves dental health in anyone. Topical application is another matter and many people conflate the two use cases.
8PPM in river water will kill salmon. 4PPM will in some temperature ranges. And they want us to drink that.
Re:End Flouridation (Score:5, Interesting)
8PPM in river water will kill salmon. 4PPM will in some temperature ranges. And they want us to drink that.
Are you a salmon? Different animals react wildly different to different drugs. The human body has a lot in common with mice, but virtually nothing in common with fish. Have you ever taken an aspirin or a paracetamol? Even the tiniest doses - those suitable for newly born kids - will kill a large cat.
Typical toothpaste has 1500PPM yet accidentally ingesting it won't kill you. I do recommend not brushing your pet salmon's teeth.
Re:End Flouridation (Score:4)
Paracetamol does not kill cats.
I'm not sure where you heard that, given that the American Veterinary Medical Association [avma.org] says (emphasis mine):
Published in the April issue of the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, the consensus guidelines are a valuable resource for veterinarians on the most widely used analgesic in veterinary medicine. As the guidelines state, “The unique feline metabolism must be considered when prescribing any medication for this species. Cats have deficient glucuronidation capabilities and are, therefore, at greater risk of toxicity when being administered drugs relying on this pathway for clearance (hence why paracetamol [acetaminophen] is contraindicated in this species).”
But don't take their word for it. I literally couldn't find any site in the first few dozen search results suggesting anything to back up your assertion. They all agree that paracetamol (a.k.a. acetaminophen) is highly toxic to cats, and is even potentially lethal to some cats with only a single regular strength dose. Some examples:
https://www.clarksvilleanimalh... [clarksvill...spital.com]
https://www.vets4pets.com/pet-... [vets4pets.com]
https://vcahospitals.com/know-... [vcahospitals.com]
https://cats.com/tylenol-poiso... [cats.com]
https://www.vets-now.com/pet-c... [vets-now.com]
https://vetster.com/en/conditi... [vetster.com]
https://www.petmd.com/cat/gene... [petmd.com]
Perhaps you were thinking of a different drug?
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It literally takes twice the recommended levels (Score:4, Insightful)
Try taking twice as much ibuprofen as is recommended, and let's not kill ourselves here slashdot is full of old farts and I know you all be downing painkillers, do that for several years and let me know how that affects you.
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Ibuprofen has a huge first use safety factor, persistent use just harms your stomach. I presume you meant Paracetamol. It's one of the lowest safety factor OTC drugs, not the norm at all. Even then unless you have a bad liver or combine it with alcohol 2x is not going to do much.
2X is an embarrassingly low safety factor for a drug forced on the entire population. The report not discussing the effects below 1.5 was also a political issue. There was no clear threshold effect and no reason to expect one to be
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Paracetamol + alcohol is literally poison for the liver.
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Try taking twice as much ibuprofen as is recommended,
Try that with Paracetamol. 2x the recommended dosage can be deadly.
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Try taking twice as much ibuprofen as is recommended
If you're talking about the OTC stuff, that's equivalent to the prescription dose. Also, OTC medications usually don't take body mass into account on the dosing instructions, so while 400mg of ibuprofen might work fantastically in some skinny little twink, I may as well be popping jelly beans for all the good it would do. I have to take 600mg if I actually want it to work.
Course, a better analogy for the whole fluoridated water thing would be like swallowing some Neosporin for a scrape on your hand. It's
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To see the effect. The point of the study is that there is some communities that have naturally high levels of fluoride in their water and that may be a problem.
The ability to detect a statistically significant result is distinct from whether or not harm is being inflicted.
Yeah no shit if you have doubled the recommended dosage of something it's going to be a problem.
Strange drug, usually dosing is based on body weight, age or discretion of prescriber. Here we have a drug known to bioaccumulate in humans where dosing is based on how much water the individual happens to drink. That makes a whole lot of sense.
As evidenced by you? (Score:2)
That result is worthless (Score:3)
The ability to measure IQ is weak on a good day. 2 to 5 points is utterly drowned out by testing noise.
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Hell you can vary the IQ by that much just with motivational speeches before the test.
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>European countries do not force medicate
This is false, as some do. Also within countries that don't some local municipalities do.
For example here in Finland, township of Kuopio added it to tap water from 1959 to 1992 at concentrations of 1-1,3mg/l. But it wasn't added anywhere else.
There's also natural fluoride in the soil, which can be found in ground water as a result.
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This has been known for some time, yet there are those who think its a conspiracy theory.
No, the conspiracy theory is that the government put it in there on purpose to keep the population dumb. That's not a conspiracy fact. Don't confuse that with the core issue.
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Whatever source told you that European countries don't add fluoride to water lied to you. If it's the same source that you got all of the information about Chinese IQ tests from you should consider that information suspect as well.
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It is true, though - many European countries do not add fluoride to water. They add it to table salt instead.
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Industrial waste (Score:3, Insightful)
Putting it in water was to solve an industrial waste problem. Sadly look it up.
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At that dosage? That sounds like complete nonsense.
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Aside from his causality being backwards, the dosage is precisely why industrial waste is used for fluorine in drinking water. At higher dosages the other elements in the waste stream become dangerous to health.
Re:Industrial waste (Score:5, Informative)
False-ish. There was not an "industrial waste problem". The reality is little more than an effort of reusing waste materials from one industry in another. Adding flouride to drinking water came long LONG time after the phosphate industry had the waste product. Fluoride waste was disposed before, the fact that it could be re-used elsewhere isn't an indication that it was "solving a problem".
It is true that industrial waste is used as a fluoride source, but only because at the concentrations required it is more than suitable for use. If you instead needed to add it to toothpaste not only would the concentrations of fluoride need to increase by a factor of 500x so would the concentrations of arsenic, lead and other byproducts - hence for toothpaste it is manufactured pure, but for the water industry it is sourced from a waste product.
Your causality is backwards. The countries with the most fluoridated water are the countries with the easiest and cheapest access to fluoride - i.e. the ones who have the ample industrial waste. It was the industrial waste solving the problem of fluoride being expensive to produce.
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No, the evidence of benefit (which was the BS Kingston study that did not control for refrigeration and electrification) was based on sodium fluoride which fully dissociates in water.
The use of sodium silicofluorides was considered unwise because it's acidic (lead leeching) and does not dissociate well (Caplan et. al) in water, leading to lead being dragged across the blood-brain barrier through calcium-ion channels. That's the MoA here for low-IQ.
Most ion-channels have preferred metals and 'good enough' m
Einstein didn't have any teeth (Score:2)
Just Google him and there isn't a single picture where you see him with teeth.
Same with Nicola Tesla or Leonardo Da Vinci.
I ain't buyin' it. (Score:2, Insightful)
I thought we had this out back in the sixties. (Score:2)
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I'm not sure it's the new generation doing the shovelling. I suspect it's still mostly boomers, and early genXers getting in on the con. The military linked UFO garbage being a shining example. Certainly MAGA types.
Incorrect usage (Score:5, Insightful)
4 out of 5 dentists recommend.....you let dentistry, not Proctor & Gamble's abrasive mint consumer product to determine the appropriate dosage of an active ingredient that the human body cannot fully metabolize. Fluorine is the most reactive element on the periodic table and when it binds its not friendly to organic chemistry, That's what makes Teflon and many industrial fire retardants and other forever molecules so hazardous to the environment. Perhaps we should study the inappropriate use of these medicinal ingredients before making them available to the public harm. Better late than never, but Fluoride is perfectly safe when it is used responsibly and in the correct dosage which may be zero for some.
The sugar that causes tooth decay is every bit as destructive to human health and the quality of life. Its fun to put in your mouth but never helped improve IQ while addicted to its usage.
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Hydrogen and Oxygen are also highly reactive. That doesn't make them the enemy.
Most light elements are used by the body in some way. Probably the only ones not used are the non-reactive ones like Helium and Neon.
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>The sugar that causes tooth decay
Sugar is part of it. Adequate A, D3 and K2mk7 in the diet (for calcium management) and carbs.
My data point:
I eliminated carbs and sugar and didn't brush or floss for 6 months, but the dentist congratulated me on my meticulous flossing when I went back.
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Sugar doesn't cause tooth decay. Acid causes tooth decay. We don't eat acid, bacteria does however make it. Fortunately no where in the history of all human knowledge have we ever identified a link between bacterial activity and sugars. *sips beer*. /s
Sarcasm aside, the link between sugar and tooth decay is well known. And many animals have bad teeth for the same reason sugar causes tooth decay: bacteria in the mouth.
Re:Incorrect usage (Score:5, Informative)
What evidence is there that sugar causes tooth decay, besides being an old wives tale? Many animals have very bad teeth and they don't eat sugar.
sugar does not cause tooth decay, the acid that bacteria produce does. guess what, bacteria love sugar but they eat all kinds of food, and most animals don't brush their teeth as thoroughly as we can do. they also tend to not need their teeth for as many years as we do.
so if you eat lots of sugar but irrigate and brush your teeth afterwards ... your teeth will be just fine. it's your liver, pancreas and metabolism in general which you will have to worry about, and the plethora of nasty issues that can come with that.
Has anyone tried... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe use the recommended amount instead of twice as much? If the recommendation is 7 PPM then maybe there is a reason they didn't recommend 14 PPM?
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That idea is sadly too complicated for most people.
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Maybe use the recommended amount instead of twice as much? If the recommendation is 7 PPM then maybe there is a reason they didn't recommend 14 PPM?
Why didn't I think of that? I've putting fluride in my water all wrong. I should put 7 PPM but I've been putting 14 PPM.
While I'm at it, I should also stop putting lead, arsenic, pesticides, FPAS in my water, So, silly to put that in my water.
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"linked to" (Score:2)
So, stupid kids are eating toothpaste? /s
Re: "linked to" (Score:2)
And spitting out broccoli.
What's iodine intake like in those areas? (Score:4, Insightful)
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What about in adults? (Score:2)
:(
Fluoride is highly reactive (Score:2)
Why would you think it doesn't do anything ?
Also this was a fucking lazy way to accomplish the true goal: get kids good dental help.
Instead of making them drink fluoride, set up a responsible system that makes sure all kids have access to dental care.
Then you don't need fluoride in water.
such an arbitrary unit of measurement (Score:2)
Using concentration and not amounts is meaningless.
At what amount are there negative effects? Considering the development stages of kids- how much tap water are they consuming to have a negative effect in what years?
The conclusion is a "suggested" based on a study of studies.
Come back with actual data and i might take this seriously. At this point, I think TikTok has more of a negative impact on the IQ of the next generation than any amount of fluoride is likely to show.
I'd love to see how one would contr
correlation != causation (Score:3)
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There are studies using groundwater levels of fluoride, in otherwise seemingly homogenous population. Now it's of course possible Iran and China are conspiring to deny precious fluoride to our bodily waters, but otherwise it's pretty damning.
Science can't have an honest discussion about this (Score:3, Interesting)
The pro-fluoride side of science is talking around the issue, it's not so much they don't think fluoride causes brain damage but that absence of fluoride causes much more damage overall. That's simply not a discussion they feel they can have in public, so they resort to trying to bully by supposed scientific consensus, nitpicking and outright lies.
It's the same with lab leak theory and virologists.
A Few Good Men is the more relevant movie here than Dr. Strangelove. You can't handle the truth.
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If you'd actually met any you'd know there is no homogenous group called 'scientists'. You'd also know that a typical trait of those who do well in the field is to talk loudly about whatever interests them to whomever will listen.
The 'lab leak' theory is uninteresting as it doesn't actually matter.
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Lab leak theory has a huge impact on funding, it killed Ecohealth and endangers the academic career of a lot of scientists. Except for boring stuff, virology for human pathogens is all gain of function.
They are of course above uninteresting stuff like funding, but in a completely unrelated issue they also see themselves as the guards on the wall protecting humanity from pandemics. So lab leak theory has to be false.
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Scientific consensus? You mean political consensus, right?
When the political and scientific don't match, or science has no consensus, you go to a media manipulation against the population who are not involved in that science to achieve your political or economic goals.
Krill s full of fluoride (Score:2)
2-5 point drop? (Score:2)
I doubt an IQ drop that small would be measurable in anyone with a normal range IQ (which rules out many presidential candidates), and barely detectable by statistics. In fact that makes me wonder what the source is - I thought most general IQ tests had been phased out on the basis that all they test is the ability to solve IQ tests.
There may of course be other correlations - IQ tests are notoriously sensitive to cultural backgrounds ("Spot the odd one out" in a series of Farsi or Hebrew characters is exce
HowBow dat! (Score:2)
I better check this out - I've been doing twice the recommended limit of my Krokodil and cocaine use.
A therapeutic index (Score:3, Insightful)
This is awful. The government has demonstrated that it cant consistently manage the levels of ANYTHING in the water (hello Flint) and we find out 50 years later that theyve been doping the water with something that is bad for an entire city if the minimum-wage employee tasked with dumping the fluoride into the pipes drank to much the night before?
The anti fluoride people have beenconsidered kooks for decades. And now the government is admitting they had a point? This is NOT good.
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If it's purely around concentration, this isn't really in index of 2. If it's an overall quantity intake, you're spot on. I just don't know.
You know what they put in the water, don't you? (Score:2, Funny)
ALEX JONES WAS RIGHT!! (Score:2)
ALEX JONES WAS RIGHT!!
Obvious (Score:2)
Is this actually meaningful? (Score:2)
Hey! (Score:2)
I want my tetraethyl lead gasoline back.
This has been known for awhile (Score:2)
But anyone who uttered it was called a conspiracy theorist. History will look back at the mass medication of the water supply with a known neurotoxin as backward and unenlightened, and those who supported it will distance themselves as much as possible from their former positions, telling anyone who will listen that they knew all along that it was a hazard.
Notice how absolutely nobody ever utters the words - hey I called you a conspiracy theorist but you were right and I was wrong. I apologize.
It has liter
Calling all Birchers (Score:2)
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I drink Mtn Dew and have no teeth left to worry about.
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You are not supposed to swallow Mtn Dew either, yet people still do it.
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You're not supposed to swallow the toothpaste.
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You can easily tell if you overdose fluorite: If you get white spots on your teeth, you have an fluorose. Oh? You whiten your teeth
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
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Depends where it is bottled _from_ as fluoride is naturally occurring in spring water. Is the labelling where you are required by legislation to disclose the amount of fluoride in the water?
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I've used RO at home for most of my life. City water nearly anywhere I've been makes me feel sick to my stomach. I don't know if it's the chemicals or if I have a bad reaction to something in the pipes, but if I don't have RO water, I'll probably head to the nearest convenience store to buy a bottle.
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Re: free dental care... in the US? (Score:3)
Re: Purely Anecdotal Evidence (Score:2)
Re: Purely Anecdotal Evidence (Score:2)