Incompatible Starliner Spacesuits Could Stall Astronauts' Return From the ISS (inc.com) 155
NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams are facing challenges returning to Earth due to compatibility issues between their Boeing-designed spacesuits and SpaceX's Dragon spacecraft. Inc. Magazine reports: The space suits in question are the "intra-vehicular activity" outfits now worn by astronauts. They're simpler than the bulky extra-vehicular space suits used on space walks, and are designed to keep astronauts safe in the capsule in the very unlikely case there's a problem that causes the capsule's atmosphere to be lost. The problem is simple: Should Butch and Suni need to fly back aboard SpaceX's vehicle, their suits won't fit in Dragon's seats. [...]
Boeing and SpaceX suits evolved under totally different design sensibilities. If Boeing and NASA deem Starliner unsafe for humans to fly home in, Butch and Suni must head earthward aboard a SpaceX Dragon, but their suits won't be able to plug into Dragon's systems. Like trying to plug an essentially outdated USB A socket into an iPhone's charge port, the suit connectors have different shapes, styles, and functions. The suits themselves have different systems that integrate with their own capsules for purposes like air leak checks during pre-flight testing.
So if an emergency situation presents itself and astronauts have to come back to Earth before proper plans are finalized, Butch and Suni will have to return inside the cargo section of a Dragon space capsule "unsuited," according to NASA leadership who spoke on the matter in a press conference last week. Other plans include flying up suitable Dragon-connecting space suits for the two astronauts on a later mission, should Starliner be deemed incapable of bringing them back.
Boeing and SpaceX suits evolved under totally different design sensibilities. If Boeing and NASA deem Starliner unsafe for humans to fly home in, Butch and Suni must head earthward aboard a SpaceX Dragon, but their suits won't be able to plug into Dragon's systems. Like trying to plug an essentially outdated USB A socket into an iPhone's charge port, the suit connectors have different shapes, styles, and functions. The suits themselves have different systems that integrate with their own capsules for purposes like air leak checks during pre-flight testing.
So if an emergency situation presents itself and astronauts have to come back to Earth before proper plans are finalized, Butch and Suni will have to return inside the cargo section of a Dragon space capsule "unsuited," according to NASA leadership who spoke on the matter in a press conference last week. Other plans include flying up suitable Dragon-connecting space suits for the two astronauts on a later mission, should Starliner be deemed incapable of bringing them back.
Boeing... (Score:4, Interesting)
You can't blame Boeing this time (Score:5, Insightful)
This is entirely on NASA. They should have enforced basic suit connector standardisation for just this scenario instead of clearly leaving it a free for all. Did they seriously think that astronauts would only ever come down on the same ship they went up in?
Seems NASA management really hasn't improved much since the shuttle days.
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Boeings quality control may be shit these days, but problems happen in space and capsules have failed before that weren't built by boeing. The ability to evacuate on ANY ship should be chapter 1 in the basic design of a suit.
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If it was merely a matter of software I'd agree, but it sounds like it's the same old story that there's a mechanical issue with some equipment that Boeing subbed-out and didn't properly test before integrating into the spacecraft. It's kind of hard to fix Teflon seals in valves with software.
The issues with the mismatching form-factors, that's incredibly stupid. That's something that was so well known it was emphasized in the dramatization of the Apollo 13 mishap, albeit with CO2 scrubbers instead of hos
Re:You can't blame Boeing this time (Score:5, Informative)
Okay, I read up on SpaceX and Boeing traditional suits when this first appeared.
To be honest, SpaceX suits are like the Tesla charging port, or even the Falcon rocket.
Musk/SpaceX found existing designs totally unsuitable, so started fresh and developed an entirely new system that, as far as I can find, is superior in just about every aspect. The problem is that in return, it is incompatible with previous efforts.
You would need an active adapter that does quite a bit of management to hook things up.
SpaceX suits are a lot sleeker because they are custom fitted, not modualer with a limited number of size selections for arms, gloves, chests, etc... Without the need for the modular connections, they can be made tighter still. Because they are tighter and fit better, they are higher pressure and don't need to run on pure O2. They have more electronic connections for automated control of things like pressure, temperature, and mix.
It should be possible to fab something that will work with the Boeing suits, but just sending up spaceX ones (hope they had previously fitted ones, ore the measurements taken) is probably easier and cheaper.
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One of the contingency plan is for Crew 9 to fly up with only 2 astronauts and bring 2 SpaceX flight suits that fits Butch and Suni.
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It does mess up crew rotation. 2 of Crew 9 astronauts will now get push back.
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Re:You can't blame Boeing this time (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless there's some other aspect to this, the only way I can see this being an issue in the first place is that NASA allowed SpaceX and/or Boeing to have a system that's not compatible with everything else, despite there being a fairly obvious failure to consider blindingly obvous "What if..." scenarios in doing so.
Also, I know it's only a movie, but I'm pretty sure the cannibalising of parts to jury rig a solution in "Apollo 13" isn't too far off the mark and at least some of that on-the-fly solution engineering actually happened. Did NASA replace *ALL* their competent engineers with MBAs at some point? I'm sure it's not as trivial as USB port, but it's still just a fscking connector; cut the damn end off and figure out how to build a new solution that'll work with the parts and tools you have on site - you've got months to do it, and there's a Soyuz due to go up to the ISS in September that could take up some parts if needed. To use a line from another movie; "Talk about the wrong stuff!"
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Most of the apollo kit was probably analogue except for the main computer. Once you'd figured out the voltages and lines you probably could jury rig a connector. Good luck doing that with digital buses that use completely different proprietary hardware AND software protocols.
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Re:You can't blame Boeing this time (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming they're just going for a straight ISS to surface trip, with no additional orbits in Dragon first, that takes around 3 hours, not all of which is going to need closed suits anyway, after which they can pop the hatch and clamber out onto the floats or into a lifeboat while they wait for pickup. For three hours, you can go without refreshments and comfort breaks, and have a lot more latitude on the in-suit environment as long as it's survivable, so really, provided Dragon is providing the suits with fresh oxygen at a reasonable temperature and taking away waste CO2, you're surely almost there. If that air flow is controlled or regulated by electrical circuitry of any kind, which yes, will be 100% proprietary, then you have a bit more of a challenge, but again - you just need ballpark and survivable; picking a flow rate and jury rigging something shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.
The one thing NASA and Boeing have given themselves here is time, and if they have it they might as well use it. If they can come up with an acceptable solution for using Dragon as a return vehicle now, and a better one in three months time, then absolutely they want to go with the latter. If they're optioneering at this point, then that's fine and what I'd expect them to be doing, but what they definitely shouldn't be doing if they still have "the right stuff" is saying they don't have a solution ("they'll have to come back unsuited") when they've still got time to figure something out.
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Did NASA replace *ALL* their competent engineers with MBAs at some point?
Short answer: Yes. As I learned from my Ivy-League MBA son, all businesses can be reduced to spreadsheets. The ideal business makes only one thing; money. It is merely an accounting shell to handle the profits. All other things are contracted out to cheapest vendor. Quality and liability? That's the vendor's problem. People die? No problem, we didn't make the systems, the vendor did. The vendor goes bankrupt and we keep making money.
Re: You can't blame Boeing this time (Score:2)
Even with standardized suits it wouldn't help.
Soyuz has personal seats for each astronaut/cosmonaut. Shuffling the seats around from one Soyuz to another depending on who's staying longer and who's returning sooner is a thing.
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Seems NASA management really hasn't improved much since the shuttle days.
The Shuttle days? Did you miss the incompatible CO2 filters in Apollo 13? This kind of stuff has been at NASA since the very beginning.
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NASA should not have allowed this flight in the first place, because there were unresolved issues.
NASA should have been aware that software for automated return was not on the flight.
NASA probably should not have awarded the contract to Boeing in the first place.
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This is the commercialization of space. If it was just NASA they would have a standard.
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Exactly!
'are designed to keep astronauts safe in the capsule in the very unlikely case there's a problem that causes the capsule's atmosphere to be lost.'
It's a Boeing, so it's very likely.
Bring extra suits then? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know this is plainly obvious, but if they need to send a spacecraft up to rescue them, then bring them compatible suits in empty seats.
That said, I think this entire "incompatible" business is something that should have been solved before anything ever docked to the ISS.
Re:Bring extra suits then? (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe the Dragon capsule is already docked to the space station and suits must be custom made for each astronaut I assume.
Bean-counters VS. Boy Scouts? (Score:2)
Anyone know how much Dragon-compatible custom suits cost? Being this was a test mission, having contingencies ready seems a non-brainer.
Did they just forget to ask what-if, or did the accountants overrule them?
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Have them do the body measurements to construct the suits.
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Re: Bring extra suits then? (Score:2)
Wrould need EVA class suits for cargo? (Score:2)
Traveling as cargo probably requires an EVA class spacesuit, something that is self contained for hours. These intra-vehicular suits may not function fully independent of the ship for a sufficient duration.
They have time, they have astronaut measurements on file. Perhaps they could make a pair of SpaceX suits. Would a slightly imperfect fit matter for a single flight?
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Okay, Dragon was originally designed for up to 7 astronauts. For NASA contract use, they pull 3 of the seats for more cargo space, leaving room for 4 more astronauts.
Most of the cargo space is pressurized, just to make it easier for ISS crew to load/unload. That is where they'd have them. This was actually cleared for one astronaut at the beginning of the year due to a soyez problem. That flight was 2 Russian and 1 US astronauts. Due to a cooling system failure, they'd send the US astronaut back on Dra
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Crew 8 is currently not configured to take on more than 4 people. If worse comes to worse, they can try putting Butch and Suni in it and hope for the best.
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Do they need the entire suit? Perhaps a connector adapter would suffice.
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Do they need the entire suit? Perhaps a connector adapter would suffice.
Sadly, there is probably software involved in the simplest things.
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There has been at least one resupply mission since they have been up there. Why wasn't an adapter build and brought up on that flight? They surely have know about this problem in plenty of time to make the parts.
Because its probably not just about a connector. Rather than an astronaut have a mechanical nob to set a fan speed, its probably completely automated and needs more hardware than a hose connector and probably involves software as well.
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Right? How is this even an issue?
Amazon Delivery doesn't extend to space and it's several thousands of km round trip to fly a Dragon back down to earth to get it. If you don't understand what the issue is of a piece of safety gear not working as designed I'm not sure what to tell you.
Re: Bring extra suits then? (Score:2)
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I'm puzzled by the "cargo section". If the problem is that the suits aren't compatible with the seats, and the suggestion is that they would return unsuited in the cargo section, does that imply that the seats are in the cargo section? Is this a very broad meaning of "cargo"? Or is the cargo section just too small for them to be suited?
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They currently have astronauts scheduled to occupy all the seats. The "extra" astronauts hitching a ride home would be occupying space in the cargo area. As their suits can not connect to the safety systems of the capsule, they will effectively be unsuited (although they will be wearing spacesuits) as they will not have the safety of a connected spacesuit...
It is not written very well.
Re:Bring extra suits then? (Score:5, Insightful)
No it's not. The entire point of having more than one contractor is that they would have heterogeneous redundancy. If a major flaw was discovered in the design of dragon (or its space suits) then they would still have a system that worked in Starliner and its suits, and vice-versa.
Re: Bring extra suits then? (Score:2)
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That's why test missions are done, to find gaps in design and planning. It seems to me somebody should have considered this before, but the issue may be trickier than it looks.
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Common fittings aren't a major design flaw. You are arguing that every appliance in your house needs a special connector because they might find a major design flaw with GE's plugs.
Is that the best analogy? I mean, I can replace any GE appliance in my house with any other brand and it will work: Electrical, gas lines, venting, water lines...
Spacecraft has spec for docking, so should suits (Score:3)
Two contractors start from same NASA spec ... (Score:2)
No it's not. The entire point of having more than one contractor is that they would have heterogeneous redundancy. If a major flaw was discovered in the design of dragon (or its space suits) then they would still have a system that worked in Starliner and its suits, and vice-versa.
Absolutely, but that does not mean both contractors can't start from a NASA requirements spec that defines suit connections and connectors. We obviously do that for other things, such as the docks and approach systems.
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'assuming boeing isn't going to eat their overages and cancel the whole starliner program.'
Somebody might do that for them.
Re: Bring extra suits then? (Score:2)
"market" does not mean no requirements (Score:2)
We obviously have a spec, requirements, for how vehicles dock with each other and stations. We should have had a a spec, requirements, for how suits dock with vehicles and stations too.
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So lets expound some on your observations shall we. I think it is safe to equate SpaceX/Musk with the capitalist approach, and Boing with your desired socialist/communist approach. Now which party is getting stuff done at the best price and on time, and which system has two astronauts stuck in space while their broken-down vehicle is not able to return them home?
You need to be very careful what you ask for is all I am going to say.
Compatibility (Score:2)
Interoperability. (Score:3)
And no one thought of demanding compatibility between interfaces in spaceships.
It was the military who gave birth to the concept of “interoperability” to better ensure branches within a single military could effectively communicate and work together.
I agree with you. Quite frankly if SpaceX was/is still the newcomer in this game, interface adapters for multi-suit interoperability aboard Dragon should have at least been a design consideration, if not a requirement. Should probably be a global standard in all reality.
Perhaps older interface designs were also found to be li
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I guess SpaceX is able to design and an adapter plug, like an USB adapter etc.
Considering the safety problematic that would under normal circumstances probably require a year of testing and validation, thoug.
Cancel SLS (Score:4, Interesting)
Why does Boeing still have the SLS contract? Cancel it!! Give the money to companies that are getting shit done like Blue Origin, Stoke Space, Relativity Space, Firefly, and SpaceX.
Re:Cancel SLS (Score:5, Insightful)
Because SLS isn't a rocket system, it's a jobs program that each state senator tries to get as much out of in their state as they can.
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Boeing holds hostage a huge amount of the US engineering knowledge. The deregulation of the Regan and Bush years both stopped controlling them as much and allowed their safety and quality to decay but also effectively handed over the governments experts to them by allowing them to do things like self certification. Mergers with McDonnell Douglas allowed "efficiencies" or in other words got rid of redundancy meaning that now only Boeing, Northrup and Lockheed are able to build military aircraft and quite oft
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Don't forget K2 kebab and space travel! One free kebab with every launch!
Can't they just dial up a Soyuz? (Score:2)
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Isn't one of the issues is that there are no available docking ports at the moment? I thought I recalled seeing that there's already a Dragon capsule from a previous mission and also now the Starliner both docked on the US side. So they still have to figure out how to safely tell the Starliner to fuck off before anything else can dock. The discussion now is, I think, about possibly sending them back on the existing Dragon.
ISS has six connected vehciles right now (Score:5, Informative)
The article would have been a lot more clear if it had mentioned a Dragon is already connected to the ISS.
This is a pretty amazing image showing that there are *six* vehicles connected to the ISS.
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-conten... [nasa.gov]
from https://www.nasa.gov/internati... [nasa.gov]
Always Be Prep...look, a butterfly! (Score:2)
> there are *six* vehicles connected to the ISS.
Looks like our driveway when we host Thanksgiving.
Why didn't they bring X-compatible suits as a back-up? They forgot the Boy Scout motto. Their arrival *is* a test-flight, treat it like one.
Plug irony (Score:4, Informative)
Assuming they mean Lightning, USB-A will outlive it...
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The opposite, actually. Lightning is only on the device end, and Apple only had 2 device end connectors - the old 30 pin connectors used on the first iPod 3rd Gen and Lightning. USB meanwhile moved from USB-B, Mini-B, Micro-B and now C, while we had just 30 pin to Lightning and now C.
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The opposite, actually. Lightning is only on the device end, and Apple only had 2 device end connectors - the old 30 pin connectors used on the first iPod 3rd Gen and Lightning. USB meanwhile moved from USB-B, Mini-B, Micro-B and now C, while we had just 30 pin to Lightning and now C.
Assuming you mean for phones and music players, Apple has actually had four device-end connectors:
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What am I missing... (Score:3)
If they're gonna send up SpaceX's Dragon, can't they throw in some suits while they're at it?
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The SpaceX spacesuits, known as "Starman suits," are custom-made for each astronaut and typically take several months to design, manufacture, and test. The exact duration can vary depending on the complexity of the suit's specifications and the current production demands.
Process Overview:
Design & Fitting: The process begins with detailed measurements and scans of the astronaut's body. If the astronaut is available, these measurements are taken in person using advanced scanni
Don't they have duct tape? (Score:2)
Meh, back in 1970 this would have been fixed by duct-taping random items available on the station.
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Unfortunately MacGyver retired in the 80s.
SpaceX has suits (Score:3)
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Correct. SpaceX has said it has suits that would fit them
Source : https://arstechnica.com/space/... [arstechnica.com]
> SpaceX has already identified flight suits that would fit Wilmore and Williams, allowing them to fly home on the Crew-8 spacecraft (presently docked to the space station) or the Crew-9 vehicle.
This sounds like boeing's PR going full bullshit.
NASA Boeing and SpaceX Engineers (Score:2)
Never saw Apollo 11
Elon Musk must have seen it (Score:2)
But with NASA in control, you don't make demands because before you know it, they'll give the order to another company which just happens to have more lawyers on it's legal team.
Essentially outdated USB A socket into an iPhone's (Score:2)
We Already Knew This (Score:2)
This was all discussed in the media and here and everywhere on the first day Starliner docked and they said there could be a problem.
Everyone said, Oh! Well, Dragon! Immediately followed by UhOh! Suits! This is just some reporter re-hashing a story from months ago, because otherwise there's no Space news to report.
How is this not incompetence? (Score:3)
And on such a massive scale? Clearly classism leads to corruption which then breeds incompetence.
Clickbait story has been making the rounds (Score:2)
I've seen this "story" in a few other places. Lack of compatible suits would only be an issue in the highly unlikely event of some unforeseen disaster on the ISS. When SpaceX comes to give Butch and Sunni a ride, they will of course bring extra suits with them. Doh!
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Thanks. I now feel like a complete idiot for not realizing this was an option.
I still think there should be a standard suit interface, though.
It's Apollo 13 all over again (Score:2)
It's the CO2 scrubber cartridge problem all over again. The command module's cartridges were square while the LEM's were round.
"Tell me this isn't a government job."
This is totally different! (Score:2)
In that case, the problem was caused by different vendors handling their specific tasks as they saw fit without coordinating with other vendors. In this case, the problem was caused . . . uh, that is . . . uh, wait a minute . . .
If Boeing was intent upon farming out the work (you know, "privatizing" space?), they should've spelled out a specification to be met - and that would seem to be exactly what the National Aeronautics and Space Administration should be doing - providing administrative support to th
s/Boeing/NASA (Score:2)
if only they could haul 2 suits when they fly up (Score:2)
hedge their bets (Score:2)
Seems like SpaceX should probably start work on sending up two SpaceX compatible suits right now. There's no telling when Boeing is going to get their act together. I know, it's Boeing's problem, but it is two astronauts at stake, and what happened is not their fault.
Side note, NASA should really standardize on a space suit. If the SpaceX suit is the superior design, go with that.
Apollo 13 (Score:2)
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Yeah, but it made for a cool movie. Ok ok, point is valid. But was it truly proprietary standards, as in a manufacturer trying to corner the market in CO2 scrubbers? Or was it that the LM and CM teams were separate groups working on a very tight schedule, and interoperability wasn't a goal for such low volumes? (Or maybe they didn't talk to each other when they should have, I dunno I wasn't there. But I'm voting for interoperability not being a goal.) Or, I dunno, the shape and layout of the CM is rad
NASA is too blame (Score:2)
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Agreed, but I think part of that is that we're still on the steep end of the curve for some of those technologies. Companies are trying different techniques, and in some cases it's probably too early to pick a winner. But in other cases, it really does look like some companies just aren't trying hard enough. Ahem.
On the space suits, let's say the current X suit is the greatest thing since sliced bread, truly the USB-C of suits whereas Boeing is still building, I dunno, RS-422. If NASA stipulated that ev
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I'm just here to make sure someone pointed this out.
You'd think NASA would be on top of standardizing things like this.
I'm getting more annoyed, the more I think about it...how did they fuck this up? How was this not something they considered? "Hey, you know the stuff that keeps the astronauts alive? Yeah...maybe we should make sure EVERYTHING works together."
Re:Jeebus (Score:5, Interesting)
In my experience of younger engineers and software devs these days (admittedly not in the space industry) , there does often seem to be an attitude of we're the kool kids, we'll make it so much better than the greybeards, we don't need to take much notice of what they did or the problems they had to solve or how they solved them. Hence you end up with stuff like the Windows "modern" GUI mess, the lack of buttons in modern cars + touchscreen usability disasters, the "designers" of Gnome blatantly ignoring what their users want or any of the issues they're complaining about, ditto with Poettering and systemd etc etc.
Re: Jeebus (Score:2)
The thing is, nasa is a science organisation. Theyâ(TM)re doing these things in space because there really are better ways to do things than the way the greybeards did. Not because the greybeards were bad at their job, but because the materials science has moved on, the electronic engineering has moved on, etc, and not least of which because there simply hasnâ(TM)t been enough time yet to try all the alternative approaches and see which ones work well.
They arenâ(TM)t building simple enginee
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"What all that has to do with modern GUI or touchscreens is beyond me."
Its called an analogy. Look it up sometime. I thought it was a fairly obvious one but I guess not for some people.
"I much prefer the touchscreen in my Tesla over the dumb buttons in my Toyota"
So you can operate your tesla screen by touch to change the climate/radio/whatever at 70mph without taking your eyes off the road can you? Bloody idiot. Are you a shill for Tesla?
"Instead of constantly thinking about what you lost, sometimes stop an
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'So you can operate your tesla screen by touch to change the climate/radio/whatever at 70mph without taking your eyes off the road can you? '
You TELL it to do that, duh!
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Oh yeah, could speak recognition works so well! Not. A button is a lot simpler and less hassle unless you're a 12 year old sitting in the passenger seat wanting to play wid da pwetty gwaphics.
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This feels a bit like a non-story.
Yeah this is an internal NASA engineering "problem" in the sense that they know there's an incompatibility and now it's someone's job to calculate the best solution. Maybe it's flying up new suits, maybe it's developing adapters, maybe it's sticking them in the cargo hold. All approaches have benefits and tradeoffs and NASA wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't investigate and compare them. In other words, all part of literal rocket science. But the media loves to spin things as a capital-P "Problem" a
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'This feels a bit like a non-story. Honestly, sending a couple of spacesuits up on the next mission doesn't sound like a difficult thing to do! '
Again, for you too:
The SpaceX spacesuits, known as "Starman suits," are custom-made for each astronaut and typically take several months to design, manufacture, and test. The exact duration can vary depending on the complexity of the suit's specifications and the current production demands.
Process Overview:
Design & Fitting: The proc
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There are additional space beneath where the seats are located. Those are considered pressurized cargo space. Crew Dragon is a lot larger than it look from outside.