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Medicine Science

Scientists Grow Whole Model of Human Embryo, Without Sperm Or Egg (bbc.com) 149

An anonymous reader quotes a report from the BBC: Scientists have grown an entity that closely resembles an early human embryo, without using sperm, eggs or a womb. The Weizmann Institute team say their "embryo model", made using stem cells, looks like a textbook example of a real 14-day-old embryo. It even released hormones that turned a pregnancy test positive in the lab. The ambition for embryo models is to provide an ethical way of understanding the earliest moments of our lives. This research, published in the journal Nature, is described by the Israeli team as the first "complete" embryo model for mimicking all the key structures that emerge in the early embryo.

Instead of a sperm and egg, the starting material was naive stem cells which were reprogrammed to gain the potential to become any type of tissue in the body. Chemicals were then used to coax these stem cells into becoming four types of cell found in the earliest stages of the human embryo: epiblast cells, which become the embryo proper (or foetus); trophoblast cells, which become the placenta; hypoblast cells, which become the supportive yolk sac; and extraembryonic mesoderm cells. A total of 120 of these cells were mixed in a precise ratio -- and then, the scientists step back and watch.

About 1% of the mixture began the journey of spontaneously assembling themselves into a structure that resembles, but is not identical to, a human embryo. The embryo models were allowed to grow and develop until they were comparable to an embryo 14 days after fertilization. In many countries, this is the legal cut-off for normal embryo research. The hope is embryo models can help scientists explain how different types of cell emerge, witness the earliest steps in building the body's organs or understand inherited or genetic diseases. Already, this study shows other parts of the embryo will not form unless the early placenta cells can surround it. There is even talk of improving in vitro fertilization (IVF) success rates by helping to understand why some embryos fail or using the models to test whether medicines are safe during pregnancy.

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Scientists Grow Whole Model of Human Embryo, Without Sperm Or Egg

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  • by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @10:58PM (#63829208) Homepage
    Quoting: "Scientists have grown an entity that closely resembles an early human embryo, without using sperm, eggs or a womb."

    To me, that's going in a scary direction. Will they eventually grow a different kind of human?
    • by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:13PM (#63829232) Homepage
      Another article: Synthetic human embryo raises ethical issues [bbc.com]

      "... they are not truly "synthetic", as the starting material was cells cultured from a traditional embryo in the laboratory.

      Another quote:

      "The synthetic embryos do not behave in exactly the same way as normal embryos. And it is unclear how their use in research should be governed."
      • I am sure we will act ethically and give these new beings whatever rights we think they need, if any.
    • Are we not men?

    • impossible long pig
    • > scary direction. Will they eventually grow a different kind of human?

      Eventually yes! You know there's zillionaires who like to tinker with such, and they own & rule island countries where they can do whatever the hell they want.

    • Frank Enstein

      I have no parents.
      But that didn't do anything to my personality, thankfully.
  • do they achieve god status? I mean as miracles go we can now create:

    * light (1st day)
    * sky / air (2nd day)
    * land, water, plants (3rd day)
    * flying and swimming creatures (5th day)
    * land animals (6th day)
    * rest (7th day)

    True, the scale/complexity is much smaller and we haven't created a moon or a sun yet or "started creation" but we're doing pretty well on the rest of the list.

    • I have an important question.

      If land and the sun weren't created until the third and fourth days, then what exactly was a "day" prior to that? Did God just have an arbitrary unit of time and when he created the planet decided it would rotate in exactly one of those?

      • I have an important question.

        If land and the sun weren't created until the third and fourth days, then what exactly was a "day" prior to that? Did God just have an arbitrary unit of time and when he created the planet decided it would rotate in exactly one of those?

        Well not exactly one of those. The rotation is slowing down, days are getting longer.
        He's God though so he calculated how much faster to spin it back then so it would slow down enough to be exactly a day now, when we are advanced enough to ponder the question.

      • Stop asking perfectly valid and logical questions.

      • by CaptQuark ( 2706165 ) on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:14AM (#63829332)

        The word "day" in this context, to me, just means an arbitrary time unit for the narrative. It could have been replaced with Epoch, Millennium, Megaannum, Giga-annum, or something else.

        When the Moon first formed some 4.5 billion years ago, the Earth's day was less than 10 hours long. From approximately 2 billion until 600 million years ago, an atmospheric tide driven by the Sun countered the effect of the Moon, keeping Earth’s rotational rate steady and the length of day at a constant 19.5 hours; without this billion-year pause in the slowing of our planet’s rotation, our current 24-hour day would stretch to over 60 hours. https://www.sci.news/otherscie... [sci.news]

        So, if you want to imagine a "day" of about 500 million years, then you can fit the Sun/Earth construction time frame to fit the Bible's six day narrative. It's not exact but the Bible's origin story is a metaphor, not a calendar. Anyone that assumes the Sun was created at exactly 12:00:01 on a Monday, 4.6 Billion years ago is reading too much into the story.

      • If land and the sun weren't created until the third and fourth days, then what exactly was a "day" prior to that?

        It was still a day, it was just dark.

        Remember that at the time these myths were created, people didn't have really clear concepts of time, and their idea of cosmology was the sun traveling in a boat through a big waterspace. They also hadn't invented Cartesian logic, so concepts like "definition" and "conclusion" weren't really fully fleshed out.

      • by unami ( 1042872 )
        Obviously, God created land and the sun so that they'd fit his wristwatch. d'uh.
      • I have an important question.

        If land and the sun weren't created until the third and fourth days, then what exactly was a "day" prior to that? Did God just have an arbitrary unit of time and when he created the planet decided it would rotate in exactly one of those?

        Wow! Nobody has thought of that in 6000 years! What an amazing, insightful, original question! :p

      • I am curious about your intention in asking this question.

        Are you asking "in earnest," as a believer who simply wants to understand the doctrines? If so, there are resources available to you that are better than this chat forum, as these issues have been discussed ad nauseam throughout history. Consider your church to be a better discussion forum, in that case.

        Are you asking as a non-believer who is just curious? If so, you should find a wide variety of answers with a cursory web search, such [answersingenesis.org] as [answersingenesis.org] this [answersingenesis.org] (ju

      • by jbengt ( 874751 )

        If land and the sun weren't created until the third and fourth days, then what exactly was a "day" prior to that?

        It's likely a translation thing. e.g. "In my day, I walked 2 miles to school, uphill both ways." does not refer to a single 24-hour period.

    • do they achieve god status?

      They need immortality. Humans have always been able to create humans.

    • This, my friend, is a question for Eldon Tyrell.

    • by tragedy ( 27079 )

      True, the scale/complexity is much smaller and we haven't created a moon or a sun yet....

      We've actually created thousands of them. Satellites are artificial moons.

    • by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      As God II, I will NOT care what you do with your wanker or vag. That's not important me, just sing hymns to kiss my neckbeard ass or I'll delete you from the simulation.

    • We can save ourselves a step: no rest for the wicked.

  • Was it a Jewish or Palestinian embryo? Just wondering.
  • by SuperDre ( 982372 ) on Thursday September 07, 2023 @03:40AM (#63829404) Homepage
    I'll bet they have another secret sample growing beyond the 14-day cut-off, as this is just too important for a scientist.
    • by tragedy ( 27079 )

      Beyond a certain point, it has to either implant in a uterus, or it dies anyway. These can't ever potentially grow into a human being unless either someone invents an artificial uterus (turns out those do exist, but only for later stages of development once there's already a placenta) or they get a surrogate.

  • [joke] Can we in the UK have an embryoid as Prime Minister? I'm sure Larry the cat will adore it. In the short span of time between election and being swallowed whole by Larry, with or without teethmarks and after an unknown amount of time spent being batted around by kitty paws whilst trying to answer the No. 10 blower, I'm sure the embryoid will make sound PM-type decisions. Then Larry can be PM, and all will be right with the country. [/joke, though only half-joking about Larry being PM.]
  • ...welcome the arrival of the Nexus 0.0.1 and look forward to our future Nexus 7 replicant overlords.

  • An embryo produced naturally by sperm and egg is not a person. There's no conceivable scientific argument that it is, and ethics are not concerned with superstition.
    • An embryo produced naturally by sperm and egg is not a person. There's no conceivable scientific argument that it is, and ethics are not concerned with superstition.

      It's not a person yet. Ethics is quite concerned about where to draw the line though. Regardless of the method of creating the embryo.
      Superstition is a strawman and not needed. Scientifically and ethically, there must be a point at which the embryo counts as or turns into a person.

      • And until it actually is a person, it's basically a parasite. Get over it.

        • And until it actually is a person, it's basically a parasite. Get over it.

          And when is that exactly?

          • Given that we have to determine an arbitrary point in time because that's how the legal system works, that moment would likely be birth. It's the most sensible one and also the one that is easiest to determine without additional examination. At this point, the body is able to function independent from another body, even though additional care is required for it to survive. But at least the basic bodily functions work autonomously now.

            • Given that we have to determine an arbitrary point in time because that's how the legal system works, that moment would likely be birth.

              So you're happy to kill them any time up until the birth.
              And also any time after the birth. [slashdot.org]
              Are they even safe from you during the actual birth?
              Seems not, you'd happily kill them then too. As long as they are not in your immediate group. [slashdot.org]

              Seems a little pointless to have an ethical discussion with you then doesn't it.
              Your definition of "person" may as well be, "someone in your group who hasn't annoyed you enough to want to kill, yet."
              Everyone else may as well be a farm animal, or at best an NPC.

              • It's quite possible to have a discussion about ethics. We are currently having one. Whether that discussion is "ethical" is pretty moot, since the discussion is not about this discussion and whether it's ethical. Discussion whether it's ethical to have a discussion about ethics would eventually lead to a circular discussion.

                It may be uncomfortable for you to not being able to guilt-trip me as a cheap shot and I-win button in a debate. I'm sorry, that does not work with me. I do not put human life on a pedes

                • There really is little point discussing where the cut off to killing something is with someone who will happily kill anything. There isn't anything to discuss. There is no "winning" there is just the realisation further discussion would be pointless.

                  How do you discuss where to draw the line, if one party doesn't accept we even need a line?

      • Ethics is quite concerned about where to draw the line though.

        "The line" is nowhere in sight of an embryo. Ethics is not involved unless they start using them for chemical or biological weapons testing or something.

      • by dryeo ( 100693 )

        When it breathes. By law where I am and also by the Bible where God breathes a soul into the fetus, turning it into a person.
        Now we can argue about when it breathes and if it is capable of breathing, is it a person before it draws its first breathe.

        • When it breathes.

          Not a person until it breathes?
          So imagine an underwater birth, the baby is swimming around for a while but still not a person yet

          By law where I am

          That's the ethics part.

          also by the Bible where God breathes a soul into the fetus

          That's the superstitious nonsense part.

          Now we can argue about when it breathes and if it is capable of breathing, is it a person before it draws its first breathe.

          So you don't really know after all.
          You drew a line in the sand and then it turned out to be a wavy line and you're not really sure where that line is anyway.

          I don't know either. We've narrowed it down to more than 14 days but sometime before it starts breathing

          • by dryeo ( 100693 )

            I leave the ethics to the pregnant woman and her Doctor(s) as I'm not in a position to force their hand and everyone has their own ethics, as well as different cultures varying wildly on their ethics.

            • A reasonable position to take.
              Unfortunately the woman and doctor might not get to make that decision, depending on the ethics of politicians where they happen to live.
              • by dryeo ( 100693 )

                Luckily, here in Canada, currently there are no laws on abortion besides the usual on medical procedures. And as far as I know, there are about zero late abortions, perhaps the odd one where the fetus is not viable but generally, prevention is pushed and everyone wants the procedure done as early as possible.

    • Is that embryo were to be implanted in a woman and eventually became a walking talking entity. Would they not be a person? If not, could you own it and use it like a slave? Can it be a citizen? Can it own property? I suspect ethics would have concern for that.

      • He means more that it doesn't meet necessary or sufficient conditions to be a person (e.g. an embryo at this stage could even end up becoming several people as identical twins). This is contrary to less informed opinions, e.g. 'life begins at the moment of conception' (as if conception itself was something that happens in an instant...) that tend to be against abortion and medical research along these lines.
      • The so-called "ethical" arguments around embryo creation (made up exclusively by religious people, based on nothing at all except their beliefs) have to do with destroying them in experiments, not implanting and gestating them.
    • >"An embryo produced naturally by sperm and egg is not a person. There's no conceivable scientific argument that it"

      If you believe that, then you aren't being honest. The whole logic falls apart when asked "so at what point exactly does an embryo become a person?" And no matter how one answers, a logical and scientific argument can be made to prove it is wrong or at least not completely true. The moment an egg is successfully inseminated and creates a new genetic code, it becomes a new being. Everyth

      • This comment is absurd college freshman obscurantism.

        I cannot prove with absolute physical and mathematical certainty where your wallet ends and my hand begins, so I guess it's "philosophically debatable" whether my walking off with it constitutes theft. LOL

        Your statement that a "being" is created by mixing chemicals despite the absence of brain tissue has no objective meaning. Ethics is not relevant to embryo creation. Only incidentals like who donated the DNA, how they were informed, etc.
        • >"Your statement that a "being" is created by mixing chemicals despite the absence of brain tissue has no objective meaning."

          So how many brain cells would then make it a "being" or have objective meaning? One? Two? A million? Would they have to be connected yet?

          >"Ethics is not relevant to embryo creation. "

          Creating it means that it then exists and there are possible ethical considerations beyond just the creation. At what point in development is it not OK to modify it, damage it, starve it, copy

          • So how many brain cells would then make it a "being" or have objective meaning?

            Again with the obscurantism. If there are no brain cells at all, the question is moot.

            Creating it means that it then exists

            It does not, however, mean there is any basis to categorize it as you have. And demanding that I prove a negative before you'll admit that is absurd.

      • by dryeo ( 100693 )

        The moment an egg is successfully inseminated and creates a new genetic code, it becomes a new being.

        And if that inseminated egg divides into 3 genetically identical fetuses, we can terminate two as we still have a being with its own genetic code. At that perhaps ethically we should terminate them so as to only have one being.
        I'd prefer to follow the Bible, when God breathes a soul into them, they're a person, can live without being a parasite on an individual and it is supposed to be the soul that differentiates people from animals which are usually ethical to kill.

        • >"And if that inseminated egg divides into 3 genetically identical fetuses, we can terminate two as we still have a being with its own genetic code. At that perhaps ethically we should terminate them so as to only have one being."

          Now we can get more into the ethics of it. I would say no, just because it divided into 3 twins, doesn't make it ethical to kill the other two. But what if the situation came to be that you knew all 3 would die if one were not terminated?

          >"I'd prefer to follow the Bible, wh

  • by OpenSourced ( 323149 ) on Thursday September 07, 2023 @06:46AM (#63829496) Journal

    a structure that resembles, but is not identical to, a human embryo

    Why not phrase it as : "a structure that is almost, but not quite, completely unlike a human embryo"

    • It's a non-viable fucking clone. But that would trigger the ethics issues, particularly since it's a violation of the law in several countries. (Even at less than 14 days).

  • > Instead of a sperm and egg, the starting material was naive stem cells

    So they made a cake with no sugar or flour. They used Betty Crocker cake mix. Oh wait.

    How were the stem cells themselves made ? Of what basic materials ? Oh right, sperm and egg.

    • Who cares? Just throw the crap out into the bin.

      Frankly, 8 billion people on the planet, who gives a fuck about a single one?

      • You presumable care about you don't you?

        Frankly, 8 billion people on the planet, who gives a fuck about a single one?

        So we can kill all 8 billion, as long as we do it one at a time?
        When should we stop? When do we change to caring?
        Same as your lack of understanding here. [slashdot.org]

        Not professing to know the answer. But you seem incapable of even understanding the questions.

        • I care about me. But I wouldn't expect you to. Why would you? You don't know me.

          Humans are social creatures and as such, we do tend to care about ourselves (ok, that's basic self preservation) and we also care about those in our immediate vicinity (which also serves self preservation, by extension). Caring about someone outside our immediate group, though, is expecting a bit much from an animal that grew up to function in a pack oriented society.

  • If that embryo grew up to be something that walked around and talked like a human, would it be ethical to kill it ?

    I'm not sure this how this makes anything more ethical.
  • Scientists have created a complete model? OMG how long before it matures?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • it's already smarter than a maga voter,
  • ...that'll be the end of women.

    The ultimate winners here are going to be all the men who want to be bigger, stronger, and faster women who never have periods. No need to even implant a faux uterus, just scrape a stem cell, and build your baby mini-me in a bottle, and then declare yourself a mother.

    Heck, your progeny can take turns transing or not transing, maybe skipping generations as men, or "improved women".

"We live, in a very kooky time." -- Herb Blashtfalt

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