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Biotech United States Science

Americans Are Ready To Test Embryos For Future College Chances, Survey Shows (technologyreview.com) 188

An anonymous reader quotes a report from MIT Technology Review: Imagine that you were provided no-cost fertility treatment and also offered a free DNA test to gauge which of those little IVF embryos floating in a dish stood the best chance of getting into a top college someday. Would you have the test performed? If you said yes, you're among about 40% percent of Americans who told pollsters they'd be more likely than not to test and pick IVF embryos for intellectual aptitude, despite hand-wringing by ethicists and gene scientists who think it's a bad idea. The opinion survey, published in the journal Science, was carried out by economists and other researchers who say surprisingly strong support for the embryo tests means the US might need to hurry up and set policies for the technology.

The new poll compared people's willingness to advance their children's prospects in three ways: using SAT prep courses, embryo tests, and gene editing on embryos. It found some support even for the most radical option, genetic modification of children, which is prohibited in the US and many other countries. About 28% of those polled said they'd probably do that if it was safe. The authors of the new poll are wrestling with the consequences of information that they helped discover via a series of ever larger studies to locate genetic causes of human social and cognitive traits, including sexual orientation and intelligence. That includes a report published last year on how the DNA differences among more than 3 million people related to how far they'd gone in school, a life result that is correlated with a person's intelligence.

The result of such research is a so-called "polygenic score," or a genetic test that can predict from genes whether -- among other things -- someone is going to be more or less likely to attend college. Of course, environmental factors matter plenty, and DNA is not destiny. Yet the gene tests are surprisingly predictive. In their poll, the researchers told people to assume that around 3% of kids will go to a top-100 college. By picking the one of 10 IVF embryos with the highest gene score, parents would increase that chance to 5% for their kid. It's tempting to dismiss the advantage gained as negligible, but "assuming they are right," Carmi says, it's actually "a very large relative increase" in the chance of going to such a school for the offspring in question -- about 67%.
"The current poll found only 6% of people are morally opposed to IVF today, only about 17% have strong moral qualms about testing embryos, and 38% would probably do to boost education prospects if given the opportunity," adds the report.
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Americans Are Ready To Test Embryos For Future College Chances, Survey Shows

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    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Train0987 ( 1059246 )

      Except the engineered children of that 40% will be choosing the same for their offspring at a much higher rate and on and on. That doesn't take into account the amount in the 60% who were just lying to the survey people.

      These embryo test will only get better. It won't be long until they can test for homosexuality (since we've been told they're just born that way) and that will be the beginning of the end of LGBTQWERTY. I expect those activist groups will fight this louder than any other and demand outrigh

      • They can have their LGBTQ+ test (which won't work, they've tried). But - at least I'll get my god gene test. (Yes, as it turns out, propensity to believe in a god is genetic. Basically, this is a gullibility gene.) Look it up, it exists.

      • It won't be long until they can test for homosexuality (since we've been told they're just born that way) and that will be the beginning of the end of LGBTQWERTY. I expect those activist groups will fight this louder than any other and demand outright bans.

        On the flipside though, it's entirely possible a certain minority of parents might actually want gay kids. It's a bit presumptuous to assume every parent wants their offspring to be straight, especially if they're planning on having several kids and don't have to rely on all of them to continue the family's lineage.

        You might be thinking "why would anyone want a gay kid?". Why do some people play video games on the most difficult setting? Why do some people eat ridiculously hot peppers? Why do some peopl

      • LBGT(etc) seems to be based on hormone levels in the mother triggering certain developments in the foetus, rather than genetics.

  • People already pick their spouses based on assessed fitness to raise successful children. Even if they don't admit it to themselves, or make up rationalizations about how contraception and abortion divorce a good fuck from childbearing. As if their lizard brains that drive their lust reason in such terms.

    Point is people already try to pick good genes and actively avoid conspicuously bad genes. This would be a matter of degree, not of kind.

    • Not always true. I sure didn't. We didn't even intend to have children. 11 years into marriage, we did.

      But I agree that if there is a god, she is a eugenicist, a narcissist, and a pathological lover of torture and cruelty.

    • Evolution is not eugenicist, it's random. The ugly mutant may be the next dominant specie. I think randomness is the opposite of eugenic. With gene selection, you are sure to never evolve.
      • No, it's not. Please stop propagating that bullshit. Evolution is NOT random. Evolution is a two step process. First, random recombination of traits, second, selection of the favorable combinations.

        Don't leave out that second part, it's critical here.

        • Don't leave out that second part, it's critical here.

          Yes I should have been more precise. Evolution is randomness and selection by survival to the current environnement condition. Still has nothing to do with eugenics which is just selection according to some human criteria. Eugenics is obviously a dumb idea but humans like to repeat their mistake.

    • People already pick their spouses based on assessed fitness to raise successful children.

      No.

      Anyone who thinks anything biology related is this simple, even about single celled organisms is wrong. Anyone who thinks anything about multicellular organism is this simple is a poster child for Dunning Kruger.

  • People of average intelligence graduate every year. It's about putting in the work rather than raw talent.

    • Sure, selecting for IQ is probably less useful than selecting for grit.

      But my understanding is that the companies probably wouldn't actually be selecting for IQ directly anyway but likely using educational attainment as a proxy and that factors in things like disposition to put in the work.

      • Grit is everything today. Knowledge is Google, and probably a chatbot soon enough. College is meant to cull the weak. Some are better measures than others. If you want a trade instead (btw, I applaud this decision), go to a trade school.

        If you donâ(TM)t like it, feel free to join the nearest homeless encampment and beg for dollars to treat yourself to Burger King and Wendyâ(TM)s now and then. Dumpster is out back if you need a quick buck.

        Iâ(TM)ve already seen enough TikTok morons complaining

  • by fibonacci8 ( 260615 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:44PM (#63283803)
    There's a 0% chance that they have a reliable baseline for this.
    • There's a 0% chance that they have a reliable baseline for this.

      I agree. Success in college is mostly down to a willingness to work hard and to having a good primary education. Since we are generally failing our children on the second point, they need to better on the first. Anyone of normal intelligence can get a bachelor's degree in most subjects.

    • by logicnazi ( 169418 ) <gerdes@inv[ ]ant.org ['ari' in gap]> on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:41PM (#63283891) Homepage

      That's just false. To be clear the prediction would probably not be directly of intelligence but of educational attainment (which is actually the better thing to select for) and they have used the massive genetic databases they have to do some pretty reliable regressions.

      To be clear, what they really figure out is that, given our evidence, we think this embryo will turn out to academically outperform that one 51% of the time or something. So these aren't huge effects but you can be pretty sure that if you applied these selections to a large population they would increase that trait.

      For an indepth technical explanation I recommend this video: https://youtu.be/43DDPzM0pHc [youtu.be]

    • by taustin ( 171655 )

      You're an optomist.

    • But correlation IS causation. Everyone who is educated knows that.
    • There's a 0% chance that they have a reliable baseline for this.

      Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not they can select for intelligence, ultimately it will not work regardless. The reason is that top universities have a limited number of spaces so, assuming this selective process is available to everyone, it will have zero impact on the chances of your kid getting a top university place because they will now be competing against similarly "enhanced" kids.

      If you want to increase the chances of your kids getting into a good university your best bet is to tell gove

  • Testing in the womb brings a large risk of something going wrong. Why not wait a few months then test when the baby is born? I don't understand the reason why it has to be a pre-birth test, unless the parents would want to abort if this (prrobably) highly flawed test gives a result they are not happy with, but that would be crazy.
    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      Testing in the womb brings a large risk of something going wrong.

      It is pre-implantation. Learn to read before posting. You are lucky your own parents did not have access to this technology, as I'm sure your smarter virtual sibling would have not made that error.

    • It was a study about IVF. You can test genes before implanting anything and choose the "most preferable" embryo to implant.

    • Because they are only offering (well right now the similar disease based prediction) it to ppl who are using IVF where they already need to have all these embryos harvested and outside the body. No one has yet been willing to suggest doing this to a natural pregnancy where it might increase risk yet or to harvest embryos that wouldn't already be needed for IVF.

    • TIL: most people are idiots and don't realize we've been at "designer babies" for at least a decade with IVF.

  • by doubledown00 ( 2767069 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:06PM (#63283827)

    Right. I'm going to *choose* to implant or carry to term a down syndrome kid or one with crippling birth defects. Or an "average" kid. Whatever.

    The various handicapped advocacy groups are right to be worried. No one would burden themselves with them as children if they could help it. In the future it will be impossible to convince people that they shouldn't use the technology to screen and instead should birth naturally because it is "as nature intended it" and "more sporting."

    • There is an exception for militant dead people, who view deafness a culture of their own. Two military deaf people would prefer a deaf child over a normal one.

      Such people also bitch about cochlear implants as being morally wrong and perpetuating genocide of deaf people and the destruction of deaf culture.

    • Late stage capitalism, having a child is now choosing a product. I don't believe people want this kind of world. Also having a grade in a top college may not be the best for your kid in a post oil world where office jobs are doomed.
      • Now that part is interesting, how are office jobs doomed in a post-oil world?

        • In our world, machines are doing most of the productive work allowing us to have time to do office (non-essential) work. In a world with limited energy supply (a near future), this machine work will have to be replaced by human work. That's it. And last time I checked, we have no real plan to replace oil: no schedule, no defined technology... Oil was an awesome energy source: dense, safe, easy to stock, easy to extract(well until recently) so it's very hard to replace especially if you don't have a plan
    • by couchslug ( 175151 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @09:31AM (#63284533)

      They should be glad if in future their defects are no longer brought to term. It's an act of utmost vanity and cruelty to inflict life on a defective being.

      Not becoming hurts no one and no thing.

    • Right. I'm going to *choose* to implant or carry to term a down syndrome kid or one with crippling birth defects. Or an "average" kid.

      Well, you probably will be choosing an average kid - at least on average - if this procedure becomes widespread. All it will do is change what the average is.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • That's a delibrately provocative title but there was never a decent argument that embryo selection was ethically bad. Indeed, if anything the best philosophical arguments on the issue point strongly to the idea that it's immoral not to use embryo selection.

    Unfortunately, because it's easy to confuse with genetic editing, the usual social worry about new tech and the emotional nature of ghr issue there is a substantial demand for some intellectual justification for condemning it. And the incentives in phil

  • WIthout access to the paywalled Science article, we don't know who they surveyed to get this result. That's important to know before you start generalizing about the US population.
  • by GFS666 ( 6452674 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:35PM (#63283879)

    I might be down modded into oblivion, but it has to be said. This is the future. I don't necessarily like that future, but it is coming. It is hard encoded into our genes that we want our children to have a better life or be better than us. Most parents will willingly spend a decent sum of money to ensure that their children 1) Look better than them and 2) Are smarter than the average person. So if you are going to have children, you had better start learning about this. Because if you don't, your children are going to be left behind. Behind the parents that did do this and now have children that are smarter than yours.

    For those of you who thing that this could never happen, I have news for you. It is already being practiced today. I visited the Computer History Museum in San Francisco about 10 years ago. There was High School Class that was visiting from Germany. Every single child in that class was over 6 feet tall. I read later than German Parents want their children to be at least that height because it confers greater success in life. If a German child is not growing enough to reach that the parents will go to their Doctors who will willingly prescribe Human growth Hormone to the child so that they grow to that height.

    So this is coming. And if you are not on the wave of it your going to be left behind.

    • I hate this argument of "It's coming, so might as well embrace it". I keep seeing this surrounding the discourse about AI, about big tech monopolies, about climate change...
      No, it's only here to stay if we embrace it. The world would have been a very different place if people saw black slavery, women's lack of emancipation, hell even plagues and diseases, and said "This is the way things are, there is no hope to change this".

      That and, allow me to quote ted kackzynski of all people and repeat something he sa

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The ethical considerations usually focus on what kinds of things we should be screening for. Severe disability is something most people would consider acceptable, but something like a cleft palette is more controversial. Selecting for sex is mostly unacceptable in the West, unless there is some overriding medical need.

      Selecting for traits like intelligence tends to be on the controversial end. There was a similar debate years ago when scientists thought they might have found a "gay gene" that would allow th

    • Most parents will willingly spend a decent sum of money to ensure that their children 1) Look better than them and 2) Are smarter than the average person.

      Yes, but (2) is ultimately not possible. If the procedure actually works and is readily available then it will raise the average intelligence of people and the result is that while your kid may be smarter they will probably not be any smarter compared to their peers.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @07:15PM (#63285857)

      Hahaha, nope. This is primarily a way to separate elitist morons from their money, at least at this time, because these predictive techniques do not work. It is unclear whether they will ever work. You "story" about HGH use in Germany is a complete fabrication (i.e. "lie") though. HGH is used in some developmental problems in Germany, but not to get kids to 6 feet because the parents want it. That would be medical malpractice and get the MD that does it banned from working ever again. Incidentally, there are no "High School Classes" in Germany, because Germany uses a different education system.

      As the Germans are obsessive about doing statistics on everything, here is some proof that you are full of shit: https://www.destatis.de/DE/The... [destatis.de]

      What can be seen is that for people being 25-30 years old (roughly being high-school equivalent age 10 years ago), the average (!) height is 174.2 cm, which is _below_ 6 feet. What can also be seen that there is no jumps in the average over time, but that the average height of young adults in Germany has increased relatively steadily by about 2 cm (a bit less than an inch) in 30 years. Over 60 people start to shrink, so the numbers there are misleading. These 2 cm height increase over 30 years are completely explained by other factors and are strong proof that there is _no_ widespread use of HGH in Germany to adjust kids body height. The table above is for all people, but the tables for men and women show the same effect.

  • Unless the results are repeatable and reproducible at scale, it's all bullshit.

    What use is this, when employers still put bullshit requirements and bullshit assessments and other bullshit barriers to getting hired, when none of them have any good evidence that it helps their hiring?
  • Yes you can breed people for specific traits just like you can breed animals for specific traits, but the problem is that, well, it's just like animals. You'll get some of the traits you want and you'll get some traits you don't want. Go look up the health problems supposed purebred dogs have. And that's tip of the iceberg stuff.
  • >"Imagine that you were provided no-cost fertility treatment and also offered a free DNA test to gauge which of those little IVF embryos floating in a dish stood the best chance of getting into a top college someday"

    Then you would essentially have GATTACA
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0... [imdb.com]

    It is dystopian for a reason.

    • GATTACA isn't dystopian, it's utopian. Humanity took the reigns of evolution and made itself better. This is the ONLY way we'll ever rid ourselves of the low IQ NPC's that take up so much of our biomass, and thus ever elevate ourselves up the Kardashev scale into being a true civilization and not just a bunch of gravity bound monkeys.
      • Unless you somehow keep people from fucking or at least producing "freeborn" humans, you would have to deal with these low IQ NPCs.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        There's an easier way to do that: stop punishing people for the accident of their birth into low socio-economic environments.

        If you want to raise average IQ, raise the poor children in supportive environments, and keep them fed nutritiously. Because it turns out, with humans having so little genetic diversity, humans can generally be raised to be very intelligent simply with better socio-economic conditions.
  • I would pay extra for highly functional aspi kids.

    My daughter is currently struggling with the negative aspects of her autism, but with a LOT of home tutoring, she is far more capable than her neurotypical peers in the most important topics.

    Age cures most aspi issues. We're hoping someday to work in robotics or signal processing somewhere
    • LOT of home tutoring

      Age cures most aspi issues.

      Not if you don't expose them to social environments outside of the home.

      most important topics.

      Most important topics - to you.

      In my experience with the nerds on this website, merely focusing on the "technological topics" produces the most short-sighted, small-picture people I've ever come across. People who can't extrapolate - people who literally can't seem to think of extended consequences.

    • Ahh the man is proud of his child and it sounds like she’s got a good head on her shoulder thats going to take her places.

      But there is some truth here. You’d be surprised what turns out to be important when someone has a neurological condition like this.

      Will she be able to assert herself so she’s not taken advantage of? Can she bond with a partner in a way that will bring happiness to her life?

      Seemingly little things too. Is she working on her fine motor skills? She could have embarras

  • Selection bias (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gijoel ( 628142 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @12:51AM (#63283987)
    I imagine that if you're parents are wealthy enough to afford IVF and pre-implantation genetic test then they're going to be wealthy enough to send said progeny to the best schools and hire tutors to plug any gaps in their university entrance exams. A lot of times where you end up in life comes down to the decisions your parent made (or didn't make) when you were a kid.
  • "Your son will be of Nobel-prize-winning intelligence but he'll very likely suffer from muscular dystrophy. Choose."

  • only took a hundred years for the pendulum to swing back

    • It's always been popular, especially for preventing infants s of the wrong father or the wrong gender. Are you under some impression that such fetal selection has ceased over the last 100 years? If you believe this, may I introduce the gender disparity problems for young Chinese, where the young men so outnumber the young women that China is importing sex claves? See the Time magazine article from a few years ago.

      https://time.com/5555695/china... [time.com]

  • Years and years ago, sperm was taken high IQ men to.....impregnate high IQ women to create a super race. True !! Don't think it worked out !!
  • by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:18AM (#63284403) Journal

    ... I mean, all the cool kids have convinced half the country that an embryo is just a "clump of cells".

    So, what did you expect would happen? Propagandize hard enough, and some people will actually believe you.

  • by MpVpRb ( 1423381 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @11:39AM (#63284805)

    I'm skeptical, really, really skeptical
    The exact chain of events that leads to intellectual success is unknown
    This "test" is nonsense

  • "Imagine that you were provided no-cost fertility treatment and also offered a free DNA test to gauge which of those little IVF embryos floating in a dish stood the best chance of getting into a top college someday."

    When the Boomers start complaining about how technology SURE has changed, remember this "test" used to be as simple as procreating with Lori Loughlin.

  • Call Honest Jo for a quote.

    Scientists are on sale right now.
    Call quick!

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