ESA Fully Cuts Mars Mission Ties With Russia (france24.com) 177
The European Space Agency has officially terminated cooperation with Russia on a mission to put a rover on Mars, with Russia's space chief furiously responding by banning cosmonauts on the ISS from using a Europe-made robotic arm. France 24 reports: The ESA had previously suspended ties on the joint ExoMars mission, which had planned to use Russian rockets to put Europe's Rosalind Franklin rover on the red planet to drill for signs of life, due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. ESA Director-General Josef Aschbacher tweeted on Tuesday that because the war and resulting sanctions "continue to prevail," the agency would "officially terminate" ties with Russia on ExoMars and its landing platform.
The firebrand head of Russian space agency Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin issued an angry response. "Has the head of the European Space Agency thought about the work of thousands of scientists and engineers in Europe and Russia which has been ended by this decision? Is he prepared to answer for sabotaging a joint Mars mission?" Rogozin said on Telegram. "I, in turn, order our crew on the ISS to stop working with the European manipulator ERA," he added.
The firebrand head of Russian space agency Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin issued an angry response. "Has the head of the European Space Agency thought about the work of thousands of scientists and engineers in Europe and Russia which has been ended by this decision? Is he prepared to answer for sabotaging a joint Mars mission?" Rogozin said on Telegram. "I, in turn, order our crew on the ISS to stop working with the European manipulator ERA," he added.
Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
"Has the head of the European Space Agency thought about the work of thousands of scientists and engineers in Europe and Russia which has been ended by this decision?"
Has the head of state considered not invading other countries?
Honestly, I'd like to see more of this shit done against superpowers when they unilaterally perform "special" operations [wikipedia.org]. Russia just happens to have the unfortunate distinction of being the first nuclear power held accountable for their actions. Tough luck, Putin.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the thing you need to understand to grasp the mindset of these Russians: They're literally brainwashed, but they don't believe in a possible world where everyone else isn't also brainwashed. To them, there's no such thing as rational people, there's just competing brands of brainwashing. So of course they are highly hypocritical but the last thing they would expect is for anyone to blame them for that.
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Yes, the so called "reverse cargo cult". They think that other people's airplanes are also made of straw, but they are pretending that it is not the case.
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Yes, the so called "reverse cargo cult". They think that other people's airplanes are also made of straw, but they are pretending that it is not the case.
Nice one! Was not familiar with the term so far. Makes a lot of sense.
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I run into a similar problem when I talk to my fellow Americans. For some, any criticism of the policies of my elected representatives somehow transforms into an emotional jihad against my country. Nationalism, it's a hell of a drug.
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I run into a similar problem when I talk to my fellow Americans. For some, any criticism of the policies of my elected representatives somehow transforms into an emotional jihad against my country. Nationalism, it's a hell of a drug.
Pretty much. Nationalism allows you to believe you are one of the "good guys" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And that is pretty much the present situation.
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Get help for your unhealthy fixation.
Yes, that's a perfect imitation of the mindset. Congratulations on your great grasp of irony.
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Both sides of this exchange prove the overall point. Neither side will admit their flaws, because they both believe the other side is brainwashed and that they are either not brainwashed or brainwashed with a superior detergent.
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Re: Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:2)
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There is some brainwashing on the left, for sure, but the left questions things, have diverse opinions they formulate partly or largely on their own, and as such arent as cohesive a group.
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Both sides believe they're supporting their positions based on facts. Both sides believe the other side is full of shit.
You seem to be equating facts with lies. Only one side seeks objective facts, while the other wants desperately to cling to lies.
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Both sides of this exchange prove the overall point. Neither side will admit their flaws, because they both believe the other side is brainwashed and that they are either not brainwashed or brainwashed with a superior detergent.
Probably just brainwashed with better detergent. I really cannot believe Trump supporters believe all the crap he is spewing. Of they were _this_ mentally dysfunctional, they would probably not be able to learn how to read. Hence probably a case of "we have the better lies". That lies do not cut it anymore in a complex, globalized world is something that is then truly out of their grasp. And sure, the other side is a bit better, a bit less dishonest, but essentially the same thing in moderation.
Re: Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:2)
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. And sure, the other side is a bit better, a bit less dishonest, but essentially the same thing in moderation.
Your confusing leadership with constituents here. The democratic leadership believes money wins elections over all else and is sold out to largely the same corporate and wealthy donor interests, true. But as far as constituents, it’s a far different story and there is no “both sides” doubly so when it’s the authoritarian lock step right vs every other political interest. If America was actually democratic we would have at least a handful of parties.
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I don't think so. The US has a conservative party and an extremist conservative party and that is because of the voter population. I don't think non-conservatives are a significant voter population in the US. A difference is that the extremist conservatives have lost all decency now (voters and politicians), a long observed trend that has now become very clear. I do not see that on the conservative voters. They still try to do something reasonable. Politicians, sure, that are basically all bought now.
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Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:4, Insightful)
And left again, leaving the form of democracy, and often the reality: Grenada, Panama and even Iraq a bit. Russia has annexed (stolen) Crimea and shows every inclination to slice bits of Ukraine, using whatever brutal methods it can.
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Bullshit. In the last few decades, US has left jack shit except for pain in misery for the countries that it invaded. If it's not invasions it's sanctions that go far beyond simply US businesses doing business with certain countries US doesn't like. It threatens that any business that dares to do business with such country will be cut off from any ability to use SWIFT, etc., and will be sanctioned.
Basically US tolerates authoritarian governments, so long if the ruler is their fucking bastard. The US als
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Basically US tolerates authoritarian governments, so long if the ruler is their fucking bastard. The US also has had their hand in undermining democracies around the world, overthrowing governments that were elected if the country's people decide to elect a leader it doesn't like.
All of what you said is true, and yet Russia would like to be worse, and only is not for lack of opportunity. We know this is true because we can look back at the Soviet Union, and we can look at what Russia is doing right now in Ukraine.
We can and should hold both governments (and people!) accountable. Yes, I realize that means me. When we don't stop what's done in our names, we become responsible.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:4, Insightful)
Russia is in Ukraine because they see it as part of the traditional Russian Empire (indeed, as part of The Rus itself). To them it's like they're taking back a slave that was torn away from them.
FTFY. Ukrainians don't want to be dominated by Russia. They never have, for centuries.
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Yeah, and before that, it was part of the Mongol empire. Later the Zaporizhzhia Hetmanate was free and autonomous until Catherine the Great forcibly disarmed them. They weren't happy about that.
Yes, Poland dominated Ukraine. So what?
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There's definitely a lot to complain about as far as the behavior of the US in the world goes. A number of them seem to stem from what you might call a doctrine of infinite US jurisdiction. For example, invading Panama (a country that the US originally created, just so it could control the Panama canal) to arrest Noriega. Its occupation of Guantanamo Bay based on the flimsy premise that the current Cuban government once cashed a single one of its tiny rent checks as decided by a US judge. Flying drones into
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:4, Interesting)
Bullshit. In the last few decades, US has left jack shit except for pain in misery for the countries that it invaded. If it's not invasions it's sanctions that go far beyond simply US businesses doing business with certain countries US doesn't like. It threatens that any business that dares to do business with such country will be cut off from any ability to use SWIFT, etc., and will be sanctioned.
Basically US tolerates authoritarian governments, so long if the ruler is their fucking bastard. The US also has had their hand in undermining democracies around the world, overthrowing governments that were elected if the country's people decide to elect a leader it doesn't like.
Bullshit.
The US has made a lot of awful foreign policy decisions, from supporting dictators, to invading countries to try deposing dictators, to deposing somewhat democratic government to install friendly dictators during the Cold War.
But you comment is false equivalency at its worst. Absolutely nothing the US has done compares to Russia invading and partially annexing a neighbour completely without provocation.
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Absolutely nothing the US has done compares to Russia invading and partially annexing a neighbour completely without provocation.
Not recently, but we sure did a whole lot of that in the 1800's.
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Because sensibilities haven't changed at all in 200 years?
300 years ago it was legal to round up people from Africa, ship them in brutal conditions across an ocean and sell them like cattle in Virginia. If Russia started selling slaves, would you bring that up as some kind of bullshit false equivalency?
The long arc of time shows that things improve, and reaching back centuries in order to play the whataboutism game just makes you look like a fucking idiot.
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I'll take whataboutism for $200 bob. I heard two of our ancestors clubbed each other to death, from that I conclude you're a dangerous arsehole.
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Afghanistan, if you will recall, was just another lie told by bush the lesser. In reality it was Pakistan, our supposed ally, that was, in fact, harboring Osama bin Laden. So, Afghanistan was a war complete without merit or legitimacy, just like:
Iraq #2, the one referenced by GP, was also without merit or justification. Iraq #1 aka Desert Shield/Storm was the one with the murderous invading dictator. Iraq #2 was just that same bush the lesser having a little pecker contest, trying to prove that he deser
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Yes the current situation with Russian and Ukraine is particularly egregious and it would be difficult to find any single act in recent US history that is "worse", but you also have to look at the country's record in aggregate. I think if you tally the amount of human misery put out into the world by US vs Russia since the fall of the USSR, in terms of direct body count, infrastructure destroyed, countries invaded, lives shortened by sanctions, arming violent insurrectionists, supporting authoritarian regimes, etc., then the US is worse, hands down.
So in sheer body count, if you count all the fallout from the Iraq invasion as the US's fault then maybe you start to get close to a point in consequence, but not in this moral false equivalency you're creating.
But however ill thought Bush's project was remember Iraq and Afghanistan were both attempts to destroy very ugly regimes and install Democracies.
Putin, outside of his wars of conquest in Ukraine, and Georgia, and Chechnya, has been busy trying to install dictators in Ukraine and Belarus, and destabil
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business with such country will be cut off from any ability to use SWIFT
Actually being locked out of SWIFT is only a slight escalation on that scale. For the most part, it is sufficient for the US to simply require a choice: "do business with them, or do business with us; these choices are mutually exclusive".
Now ask yourself why very few countries and companies ever choose to abandon the US market over whatever backwater dictatorship is being sanctioned in this way.
The Russians, Iranians, North Koreans and other dictatorships, in their powerless impotent rage, are frequent
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
And USA annexed Hawaii, Texas, and tried it with Cuba ... there are probably plenty of more examples.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:4, Informative)
There was a significant geopolitical change after WW2 that made imperialism and annexation less tolerated by the international community than it once was. For the most part borders change due to civil wars rather than direct military assault. And the Cold War further changed the field, so now many civil wars really just proxy wars between larger powers. (perhaps with the exception of central Africa where most of the world seems to ignore what goes on there)
More importantly to my original point. Why shouldn't the US be held accountable for future actions as Russia is facing now. If the US unilaterally invades the Middle East again, maybe Europe should do more than talk and put their money where this mouth is?
When China complains that the US is a destabilizing element in world. They're not entirely wrong. They're full of shit of course, but the kernel of truth is that in acting as a peace enforcer for the world the US gets involved in internal politics where it doesn't belong and disrupts the lives of millions of people where wars are staged and fought. The rub is in response to China if we asked, would the world be better off if the US did nothing? Probably not. It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.
P.S. The US already owns part of Cuba. And the Bay of Pigs Invasion was initiated by Cubans and not the US government, even if in the end they financed the whole thing. I realize I'm splitting hairs here.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
I was a huge critic of the Iraq War. But then Iraq elected a Iranian-influenced government, and the US did nothing to prevent that from happening or it taking power, and then the Iraqis asked the US to leave, and the US did.
Pretending that the US's brand of BS is equivalent to Russia's brand of BS, which involves overthrow of democracies that are not at war, annexation of them into itself via flattening them with unguided MLRS and artillery, ethnic cleansing their populations through filtration camps (TWO MILLION deported thusfar) and replacing them with your nationals, and trying to eradicate their very culture and sense of existence... I'm sorry, but NO. Not all wrongs are on the same level.
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I'm consistent about forming opinions:
* Imperialism is bad, regardless who does it
** A country at peace should be left at peace, excepting extreme circumstances, as war and postwar chaos are worse than almost all other options.
* Not all bad things are equally bad
* Invasion to overthrow a hated dictator and establish a democracy and then leaving when that democracy asks you to is not the same thing as invading to overthrow a democracy, annex its lands, eradicate its culture, and ethnic cleanse it's people, F
Re: Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:4, Interesting)
Just wait...
Maybe...
No, I won't be supporting Putin. He's a mass murderer dictatorial kleptocrat cunt. And in 10 years hopefully he's a dead mass murderer dictatorial kleptocrat cunt that I still won't support in any way. Kind of like how we're almost 20 years after the beginning of the invasion of Iraq, and Bush and his cronies can still go fuck their own faces for lying about WMD and spending trillions of dollars and killing tens of thousands of people in Iraq to settle a score with their dictatorial cunt for going after his old man. That's called "consistency".
And as bad as Iraq was, Russia is worse.
In the modern era, if you invade a neighbor strictly because they aren't willingly chopping off pieces of their country to give to you in some form of neo-imperialist appeasement, and the response to opposition to that invasion (which is killing tens of thousands of your own countrymen) is to target civilians, schools, shopping malls, and hospitals (a.k.a. WAR CRIMES); as well as rounding up citizens in occupied territory and shipping them off to "re-education camps" while replacing them with your own citizens (a.k.a. GENOCIDE) then you deserve nothing less than the firing squad at the hands of your own citizenry.
I'd be happier with a nice long stay at the Hague until father time comes knocking, but we don't always get what we want.
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I'd be happier with a nice long stay at the Hague until father time comes knocking, but we don't always get what we want.
A nice long stay in The Hague sounds very pleasant. Nice beaches, fine dining, lots of museums and culture.. oooh, you mean at the Scheveningen prison facility.
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There's absolutely nothing to be proud of about what the US did in Iraq. The best thing that can be said is that the world has one less dictatorial shithead in it, but there's more than enough of those to take his place. Unfortunately, the cost of removing that shithead was tens of thousands of other lives, and trillions of dollars.
Not. Fucking. Worth. It.
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So it's somehow worse because it's going to happen to "sophisticated white European people" rather than unsophisticated, brown, non-European people? Fuck off with your white supremacist attitude.
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I think - although I'm not 100% sure - that they were being sarcastic about the fact that more attention is being paid to what's happening in Ukraine vs. when this has happened to other populations who weren't so white. That criticism (if that's what it was) is not unfair. It is not particularly useful though without a call to be more vigilant about dealing with this sort of thing in the future regardless of the ethnic makeup of the oppressed population. The facts is that what's going on in Ukraine currentl
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You're certainly not wrong that the circumstances are different and it is more directly relevant to European and American concerns for good reasons not related to the color of your typical Ukrainian. I probably should have qualified "not unfair" more. I think there are very good reasons for involvement in this conflict. Frankly, I think that they should have done what was requested and set up a no fly zone right at the start and sent in troops and that the half measures to support Ukraine so far are a bit t
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At the *start* of the warn, most Americans knew nothing about Ukraine. Similar to how little is known about Myanmar. But the Ukrainians did a fantastic job of making their case around the world. Was that easier because
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I believe the term needed here is "wooosh".
That was very clearly sarcasm, pointing out the hypocrisy of caring when this happens to Ukraine, but not when the exact same thing happened in Syria.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
We honestly don't know what's happened to the deported people. Both Ukraine and Russia agree that the number is huge - about two million now (Russia calls them "evacuations") - including hundreds of thousands of children. That's the population of Paris, BTW. We know they go through "filtration camps". We know that young children who were orphaned by the invasion or were separated from their parents in filtration camps are adopted out to Russian families to be raised as Russian. We know from some people who "passed" the filtration process and then managed to escape Russia that those who pass filtration are often sent to labor-deprived parts of Russia to work crappy jobs, many in Russia's far east. It's not entirely clear what happens to the people who don't pass the filtration process, although there are widespread reports of torture and abuse at the filtration camps. The filtration process's main goal is to root out people that they consider to be threats - retired soldiers, relatives of soldiers, people who have been writing pro-Ukraine comments on social media, etc etc - and separate them from people who they think they can properly integrate into Russia. A common tactic of those who managed to escaped was to pretend to be Russia sympathizers who want to live in Russia and have concrete plans to live and work in a specific city, so that they were allowed to travel there on their own (wherein they instead headed to the border).
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Paying reparations worked out so well for The German Empire [wikipedia.org] we should totally try it against and see what happens [wikipedia.org]. It's not like anyone might write a book and start a populist movement for revenge that causes a second and worse war.
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All proceeds from Russian energy (not 99%, not 99.9%, not 99.99%) in perpetuity should to go Ukraine.
Russia will take their ball and go home. And by ball I mean this globe we call Earth. And by home, I mean the interstellar oblivion from where we all came.
Seriously, if you press nations too hard for too long they erupt under the yoke and rebel even if it isn't in their own self-interests. Human beings are emotional beings. Pride and nationalism are a tricky thing to navigate when we try to hold each other accountable.
I would recommend that if Russia is to pay anything back, that there is a clear start and
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"Whutabout dem dumb Mericans!"
Fuck off troll boy....
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Nah, you just want to distract from your master's mass-murder in Ukraine.
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"Your boss is a dangerous psychopath." seems a perfectly valid reason to me.
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Has the head of state considered not invading other countries?
Does no one ever question the "WHY" of this conflict? Do intelligent people really believe that Russia, out of the blue, simply decided to invade Ukraine?
I encourage anyone who wants to fully understand what is happening over there to take a peek at the Minsk Agreements which were mediated by France and Germany all the way back in 2014.
I'm not taking a stand here, I'm simply suggesting that knowing "WHY" this 8 year old conflict finally escalated is important for anyone who wants to talk rationally about i
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people living in Eastern Europe who remember the Soviet Union are not surprised at all by these developments.
To many of us, Russia has been a pain in the ass for a long time. With the the UK, France, and Germany pretty much out of the picture as they're all in some kind of peaceful alliance, it's pretty much only Russia who has not abolished it's imperialist attitude towards its neighbors in Europe.
Honestly, I'm surprised why so many Westerners appear to have difficulties to wrap their heads around the little fact that the Soviet Union has essentially raped Eastern Europe for decades and for some reason believes that those countries owe them and being unfaithful looking for different "partners". Are history classes so bad?
At the end of the day, who poses the greater potential threat is quite contextual.
Like if you told someone in Palestine that Israel aren't actually the bad guys, it's Russia that are the bad guys. It wouldn't make much sense to them because to them it's Israel, who is the greatest immediate threat.
Likewise to many non brainwashed Europeans it was the Soviet Union and their glorified monster Stalin who was responsible for millions of deaths in Europe (Hitler of course as well), not the US.
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I can tell you that UK schools, at least when I was at one, don't teach that stuff. The only European history was in relation to the invasions of the UK and the wars we had (mostly with France, later with Germany). Eastern Europe was more of a footnote.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
Are history classes so bad?
Yes.
At least in Belgium. In my history classes there was no word about the atrocities of the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. Worse, we were even told the soviet "liberated" the territories they conquered.
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The agreement was nothing but a farce that was never honored by the pro Kremlin separatists in the first place. A failed attempt at appeasement by "the West" based on the hope that you can reason with a megalomaniac and achieve peace. Which historically has always worked out so well (sarcasm).
But of course it's the fault of those that were invaded and murdered to want to defend th
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Informative)
You seem to be spewing a lot of Russian propaganda. Minsk II was severely undermined by the actions of the DPR and LPR, and agitation by Russia. Talking of NATO expansionism is a bullshit red herring: the Baltic states were afraid of being invaded by Russia, much like Sweden and Finland recently, and asked to join rather than it being an attempt by NATO to threaten Russia. But no doubt you will keep drinking Putin's Koolaid.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Insightful)
Claiming that the invasion now is justified because Russia invaded back in 2014 and Ukraine never accepted the theft of their territory is pretty crazy.
Re:Let's carry this to it's logical end (Score:5, Interesting)
You mean, the Minsk agreements that Ukraine was FORCED INTO when Russia INVADED THEM, and to which RUSSIA never lived up to their obligations?
The total number of civilians killed in 2021 on the Donbas front (on both sides) was a whopping 25. Many of them from land mines.
Ukraine was a *neutral country* when Russia invaded them. They had disarmed on promises from Russia that Russia would never invade them. They had had their military hollowed out by corrupt pro-Russian politicians. Making Russia's job of taking their land all the easier. Ukraine didn't even decide to try to join NATO until the fall of 2014; it stubbornly stuck with its plans to try to remain neutral, *even while Russia was invading it*.
The fact that countries keep trying to join NATO is not NATO's fault, it's that THEY'RE TERRIFIED OF THEIR NEIGHBOR. Demanding that countries submit to the will of their bigger neighbors is sheer colonialism / imperialism, and its defenders should be ashamed. Read a poll sometime [kiis.com.ua]:
Support for a ceasefire without returning Donbas and Crimea is 17% for/66% against.
For a ceasefire on the current bounds, it's 12% for/81% against.
Zelensky has a 88-7% approval rating.
90% want / 87% expect Ukraine to be an EU member.
73% want / 65% expect Ukraine to be a member of NATO
27% want / 24% expect to be a third party state
3% want / 3% expect to be part of the Eurasian Economic Union, ruled by Russia.
But no, we have people here like Sethra who want to Westsplain to them that they should be happy to be annexed and ethnically cleansed by Russia, and entirely willing to discount the viewpoints of ~40 million people about the issue.
Putin literally openly admits [theguardian.com] that he sees himself in the role of Peter the Great, returning "historically Russian lands" to the Motherland. Denies the entire existence of Ukrainians - as a nation, as an identity, as an ethnicity. They're "wayward, Polish-influenced 'Little Russians'". The fact that *Ukrainians* have an identity and a language and a culture of their own is not relevant. They must be returned.
Shortly after the invasion, Russian state-controlled media accidentally published (then quickly removed) a prescheduled editorial [archive.org] about Russia's "victory" in Ukraine. Key points:
Russia is 'restoring its unity'
There will be no more Ukraine
Ukrainians are once again "Little Russians"
The invasion is "the solution of the Ukrainian question" (that rhetoric is nearly straight from the Third Reic.h)
Russia has remedied a "national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kyiv)
Of course, that's nowhere near the worst of what's been published in state-controlled media since then, many of which have been outright genocidal. Indeed, the literal Nazi [google.is] Putin put in charge of developing Russia's nuclear missiles - Dmitri Rogozin - not long ago called for the Final Solution against Ukraine [twitter.com] on Twitter.
Russia is an
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Of course you know what else was once part of Russia? Alaska
Russian politicians have had fever dreams of taking back Alaska for many years now. It makes for good rhetoric, but they know full well they'd get quickly crushed if they ever tried, even before they got much of their eastern forces killed fighting in Ukraine.
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If you find yourself caught between a wolf and a bear growling at each other, and the bear starts chomping on your neighbor, it's only logical to start edging toward the wolf -- even if all they do is ignore you, they're not attacking.
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Does no one ever question the "WHY" of this conflict? Do intelligent people really believe that Russia, out of the blue, simply decided to invade Ukraine?
Of course we've asked why. The answer is mostly perfectly obvious. Putin is getting old and close to death (aside from any rumors of cancer or Parkinson's, he's well past the average life expectancy for a Russian of his generation, which is terrifyingly low) and he wants to leave his mark by restoring Russian "greatness" in the literal sense by re-assembling the territory of the Soviet Union. He has pretty much said as much in speeches.
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In reality he's punishing the "Little Russians" for their lack of loyalty. Sometimes you gotta show tough love. Too bad his "special mili
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The Minsky Agreements were signed AFTER Russia Annexed Crimea. The agreed upon neutral monitoring signatory, OSCE, found that the Ukraine Govt and the Russian backed Separatists both repeatedly violated the agreement. Even when the Agreements were redone, the Separatists used it as leverage to push toward Donbas independence from Ukraine. No country can just let their country be split and abandon their people just because some locals want it.
All this time, Russian didn't help with the Peace talks. They
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I'm not taking a stand here, I'm simply suggesting that knowing "WHY" this 8 year old conflict finally escalated is important for anyone who wants to talk rationally about it.
The Why is obvious if you dig deeper than the excuses used for invasion. There is the Putin's goal of establishing a Russian sphere of influence in the World to counter the West's. And less directly stated but also obvious is the effort to establish a totalitarian state not unlike the horrific ones of the past. For example there is the Putin Youth Movement Created to Teach Russian Children National Principles [msn.com].
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of the Minsk agreements. We can fast-forward to where it a
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Russia is not a superpower in any metric that really counts, except perhaps the number of nuclear warheads they command. It is a distincly Russian narrative, which should not be propped up, that because the Americans have, allegedly or in fact, done X at some point, the Russians are equally justified to do X - the implication being that they are, after all, the Americans' equal on the world stage. They aren't - the good old saying quod liced Iovi, non licet bovi applies, at least to some extent.
Btw you've
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Honestly, I'd like to see more of this shit done against superpowers when they unilaterally perform "special" operations [wikipedia.org].
Desert Shield is not a good example of your point, since it was defending a country that was being invaded, and it was not at all unilateral. Were you thinking of the later invasion of Iraq under Bush Jr.? That would be a much better example.
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If you look at the link in his comment, he is implying that the US should be held accountable for their military interventions.
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I have no praise for Russia's act, but this is a real loss to science and space travel, not something to be celebrated.
Is it though? For a while now, Europe and the US have engaged in a sort of scientific diplomacy with Russia. This includes scientific and economic engagement. Often it seems like these partnerships have been to the economic benefit of Russia and the economic detriment to the US and Europe. In other words, Europe and the US have had to pay Russia for their end of various projects. Everyone was more or less ok with that when it was a diplomatic effort and the money was secondary to the good will and cooperati
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Not ironic, just hypocritical. But hey, it's been like a year since we had any active foreign invasions going on, so things are looking up.
Hypocrisy from a murderer supporter (Score:5, Insightful)
Quote: "Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin issued an angry response. "Has the head of the European Space Agency thought about the work of thousands of scientists and engineers in Europe and Russia which has been ended by this decision?"
Has Rogozin thought about the dead/destroyed life of MILLIONS of Ukrainians and their exodus in Europe and their kidnapping in Russia which in turn mandated this decision?
Of course not, because he's a murderer supporter.
Flamebait, seriously?? (Score:2)
Who's moderated this post, The Kremlin? Or is it just some ring wing out of touch basement dwelling mushroom who worships Putin?
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He's not just a supporter, there's talk of him leaving Roscosmos to govern the 'breakaway' regions in Ukraine.
https://www.supercluster.com/e... [supercluster.com]
Re:Hypocrisy from a murderer supporter (Score:5, Informative)
Rogozin is a *literal* Nazi [google.is] Putin put in charge of developing Russia's nuclear missiles, who recently called for the Final Solution against Ukraine [twitter.com] on Twitter.
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(Note: in the first link above, the black-and-white photo is misattributed. But the others are legit - there's even videos, including one of him getting a Nazi salute after finishing one of his white power speeches)
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Yeah, they'd have to finally call a war a war instead of a shortbus operation.
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Bombing them to oblivion is what they literally appear to be doing. They've been doing a grid by grid artillery shelling of the entire country starting from the east and moving west, leaving no buildings standing.
Re:Hypocrisy from a retarded shill (Score:4, Insightful)
If the Russians wanted to take over Ukraine that badly, they could do it in a matter of days by bombing them to oblivion. But they don't for some odd reason.
They didn't do that initially because they wanted Ukraine's stuff to be intact so they could used it after they conquered. They thought they were doing to roll into Kyiv casually and declare themselves the winners. That's not what happened.
NOW they are bombing Ukraine into oblivion, but only because it's become clear that they've lost, and they are pursuing a scorched earth strategy.
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Also in the news (Score:5, Funny)
Rogozin grabbed his sputnik and declared his departure from the playground.
2010 (Score:2)
Apparently lost on too many... (Score:2)
Yeah - interesting movie. I came here looking to refer to it, you got there first.
Following the announcement, NASA... (Score:2)
Russian Scientists and Engineers (Score:3)
I hope that Rogozin's words are given due consideration, and thought given to the thousands of Russian scientists and engineers who will now be looking for gainful employment. Just a pity that the West doesn't have a shortage of such skills and wouldn't be happy to welcome them with open arms.
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Like they'll be allowed to leave. Some of them might, but if it becomes more than a trickle, you can expect that gate to close hard and fast.
Doesn't end the mission (Score:3)
Re: that will certainly help ESA (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: that will certainly help ESA (Score:4, Funny)
Take more.
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Wonz zhe rockez are up, who cares were zey come down...
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Didn't jankey Russian tech ... (Score:2)