Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Space Power

Can a Seattle Startup Launch a Fusion Reactor Into Space? (ieee.org) 129

"Practical nuclear fusion is, famously, always 10 years in the future," reports IEEE Spectrum. "Except that the Pentagon recently gave an award to a tiny startup to launch a fusion power system into space in just five..." Avalanche Energy Designs, based near a Boeing facility in Seattle...is working on modular "micro fusion packs," small enough to hold in your hand yet capable of powering everything from electric cars to spaceships. Last month, the Pentagon's Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) announced it had awarded Avalanche an unspecified sum to develop its Orbitron fusion device to generate either heat or electricity, with the aim of powering a high-efficiency propulsion system aboard a prototype satellite in 2027....

Avalanche's Orbitron... could theoretically fit on a tabletop. It relies on the Ph.D. thesis of Tom McGuire, a student working on inertial electrostatic confinement (IEC) fusion at MIT in 2007... McGuire's IEC work languished until it caught the attention of two engineers working at Blue Origin: Robin Langtry and Brian Riordan. In 2018, they formed Avalanche Energy as a side hustle, eventually leaving Blue Origin in the summer of 2021. In March of this year Avalanche emerged from stealth with $5 million in venture-capital funding and a staff of 10, although Avalanche's official address is still a single-family home in Seattle.

Avalanche's website proudly proclaims: "We see our fusion power packs as the foundation for creating a world with abundant clean water, healthy oceans, vast rain forests, and immense glaciers in healthy equilibrium." A patent application filed by Langtry and Riordan contains some details of how their Orbitron may function. It describes an orbital containment system on the order of tens of centimeters in size, where a beam of fuel ions interacts with an electrostatic field to enter an elliptical orbit about an inner electrode. The application describes a system where ions last for a second or more — 10 times as long as in McGuire's simulations, and long enough for each ion to complete millions of orbits in the reactor. An article in GeekWire published as Avalanche exited stealth mode included a claim that the company had already produced neutrons via fusion.

Avalanche envisages small fusion packs with 5- to 15-kilowatt capacity, operating either on their own or grouped by the hundreds for megawatt-scale clean-energy solutions. The Pentagon is interested in the packs to potentially enable small spacecraft to maneuver freely in deep space, with higher power payloads.

The challenge now is for Avalanche to move from a 15-year old Ph.D. thesis in simulation to a working prototype in space, in just 60 months.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Can a Seattle Startup Launch a Fusion Reactor Into Space?

Comments Filter:
  • How about Mr. Fusion?
  • by Walt Dismal ( 534799 ) on Sunday June 19, 2022 @03:15PM (#62634212)
    This has got to be the Farnsworth fusor technology. Half century old in fact. Not new but perhaps not allowed before.
  • If someone were to actually invent an economically viable fusion reactor, that would be the biggest tech news of the century. End of story.

    Whether it fits on a spaceship is utterly irrelevant. Given that "space" is featured in the title of this thread, my guess is that they have not in fact invented an economically viable fusion reactor.

    • > If someone were to actually invent an economically viable fusion reactor ...
      > Whether it fits on a spaceship is utterly irrelevant. Given that "space" is featured in the title of this thread, my guess is that they have not in fact invented an economically viable fusion reactor.

      You may have noticed that space probes and large submarines typically use nuclear power. While airplanes and ships do not. That's because "economically viable" is very different in outer space and the deep ocean. Remove "gas u

  • ... the answer is always no.
    And this is of course no exception.
    • ... the answer is always no. And this is of course no exception.

      You are correct. Especially when one recognizes that the Seattle startup in question has no lift capacity.

      Can Space-X launch a fusion reactor into space? Possibly. Can Avalanche? Nope. Can Avalanche pay someone like Space-X? Maybe. But the question as asked? No.

      • If Avalanche can actually do what they are trying to get, getting to space will be trivial.

        • Actually, not really. Fusion rockets still have a similar radioactive exhaust problem to fission rockets. In fact all the "easy" fusion reactions actually produce far more neutron radiation per watt than fission does. So operating them in the atmosphere is probably not a good idea.

          We still need other options for getting to space. However, nuclear engines (even fission) are a game changer for getting between low Earth orbit and the rest of the solar system.

          • Not really, while fusion reactors generally have a higher neutron flux than fission reactors, thatâ(TM)s not really a problem for âoeexhaustâ. Propellant isnâ(TM)t in the reactor long enough to become neutron activated to any real degree, and since exhaust velocity is the name of the game, youâ(TM)re dealing with light elements, which also reduces the problem. Itâ(TM)s fuel products too need to worry about and fission fragments are FAR nastier than fusion products
            • Most nuclear rocket designs (excluding bomb-propelled Orion-style) don't exhaust the nuclear itself fuel - instead they use it to generate superheated gases (often steam) as propellant.

              Basically the propellant takes on the same role in a rocket as the primary coolant does in a power station. In both cases you want it to absorb as many of the emitted neutrons as possible, both because those neutrons carry a sizable fraction of the total reaction power - and because the alternative is to have them absorbed b

              • There are a whole raft of nuclear rocket designs that do exhaust some of their fuel (to greater or lesser degree). In some cases it's a deliberate part of the design, in others not so much. NERVA for example suffered from fuel channel erosion which exhausted some fission products. They had made a lot of progress in solving this issue before the program was cancelled, but not entirely. Gas core fission, is much more efficient (and comes in a couple of versions), but we'd have a long way to go to ensure compl
  • The good news is that a startup can move quickly. The bad news is that $5M isn't nearly enough and the grant likely isn't enough to fund this at speed. The ugly is that it means they will likely have to make some serious trade-offs on design vs. cost, and fusion power isn't something that making tradeoffs is a good thing.
    • The good news is that those 5 million of dollars being wasted are venture-capital funding.
      The bad news is that the Pentagon's Defense Innovation Unit is wasting unknown amounts of taxpayer money on magic beans, fairy dust and happy thoughts.

      The ugly is that the bad part, unlike the good part, can continue indefinitely.
      Regardless of how much money gets piled up and burned trying to launch those magic beans into space with fairy dust and happy thoughts.

    • Not to create a fusion rocket engine, certainly.

      However, the big news seems to be a new, relatively simple approach to a Farnsworth fusor that should result in massively greater ion re-circulation using a voltage gradiant across a series of precisely shaped nested electrode grids in the center, creating "ion beam lenses" to dramatically reduce the efficiency-killing electrode collisions.

      $5 mil could well be enough to prove whether such a relatively simple improvement can in fact deliver anything like the pr

  • Nice to see that it's not 20 anymore. At this rate, 20 years from now it will always be only 5 years away.

  • Why not. Thomas J. McGuire also has a patent in 2018 for a magnetic field plasma confinement device, but no diagram.

    https://scholar.google.com/cit... [google.com]

  • by Dereck1701 ( 1922824 ) on Sunday June 19, 2022 @03:57PM (#62634314)

    Why would they put this thing into space before even ironing out it's fundamental design parameters in fixed location applications (power plants/test reactors)? Does it function better in a micro-gravity environment? RTFA and it didn't seem to mention anything about that aspect. And I don't think producing neutrons (at least small amounts of them) is a big deal as garage fusioneers have been doing that for years, of course it takes a boatload of electricity for them to even create a very small reaction. The problem has never really been creating a fusion reaction, it has been generating it on a reasonable scale (not a bomb) and in a reaction that takes less energy to sustain than it produces.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]

    • Re:Why space? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Sunday June 19, 2022 @04:43PM (#62634406) Journal
      Maybe to be different from other similar startups, all vying for that sweet VC capital. I don't know, but this does have all the red flags of an investor scam.
      • And you think that investors are so stupid that they invest into scams?

        Seriously?

        If that was the case you and me would scam investors al day long ...

    • Because using it to power the lasers mounted on the shark's head is too easy.
    • It's probably due to the contract they got. Seems like they were fishing around for development funding and landed Pentagon funding on a short time schedule. Government funding is notorious for going over budget and time, so I guess they figured one shot even with ridiculous requirements was better than no funding at all.
    • It's probably bullshit and they're trying to con some other nation (like China or NK) into believing it's happening. But what if you had a design that was only viable in free fall for some reason?

    • Because in space you have a cheap - and hard - vacuum. On earth not so much.

      And: if the device can produce a small amount of energy it might be useful for an ion drive.

    • Because the US needs a leg up on satellites that can hop, skip, and jump from one adversarial satellite to another on demand and for long term?

      You know, for "maintenance" work.
    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Because it's pretty unlikely they can actually make a fusion reactor that can produce more electricity than it consumes, and a fusion rocket doesn't need to do that.

      • We aren't even to the point where electricity has entered into the situation, we haven't reached any kind of ENERGY break even point (IE put in 1 MW of energy and get 1 MW of additional thermal energy back out) that I am aware of. If you aren't producing more ENERGY from the reaction than what is put into the system it is most likely less than worthless given the increase in mass and complexity. Baring some interesting (and unlikely) quirk in the reaction that allows for much more energetic exhaust veloci

        • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          All fusion reactions produce energy. "Breakeven" is where the reaction itself produces more than you put in. Conservation of energy says that bit you put in is still kicking around no matter how much the reaction makes.

          Propulsion involves starting with energy and reaction mass, putting them together, and making that mass go as fast as practical in one direction. Importantly, at least once you're in space, the limiting factor isn't how much energy you've got, it's how fast you can make that exhaust go. Chemi

  • Seriously? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 )

    So that startup is based on a 1977 thesis of an MIT PhD, but it's ironic that a different and more recent (1995) MIT PhD thesis shows that net energy gain from IEC is impossible. Reference: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/... [mit.edu]

    • Note, I am not claiming to know which one is right. Though Todd's thesis seems to make a very compelling case. Todd's thesis is well known so I presume these guys know it too. Maybe it isn't a big deal for their particular propulsion configuration? Who knows?

      • No one cares about it being impossible. No really. The Lu just wave their hands and say magic words and the investors hand over the money. Every time.

        Iâ(TM)m not kidding. I talked to a guy who wrote a paper in 1998 explaining precisely why TAEs reactor could it possibly work. They came up with eight reasons and just gave up for lunch. Not one person has ever followed up, I was the first person to ask about it. The company has received hundreds of millions of dollars from people that donâ(TM)t eve

      • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        You don't need to produce net electricity for propulsion. No rocket does.

        • If you're using the fusion reactor as the power source for your drive, it needs to produce net *energy*, regardless of whether that's electricity, light, heat, or whatever. If you have some other power source (solar panels, maybe), and the fusion reactor is simply there to accelerate the fuel out the back end, then it doesn't need to produce net energy.

    • by wes33 ( 698200 )

      the thesis is from 2007, not 1977 (that is McGuire's **birth date**). Please don't add to the noise.
      And McGuire discusses Todd Rider's **earlier** thesis.

  • How does doing something in space make it easier?

  • by Schoenlepel ( 1751646 ) on Sunday June 19, 2022 @04:55PM (#62634420)

    In 5 years, they'll just fold after having made some "progress reports". The CEO of this "startup" has mysteriously received $5M.

    After those 5 years an investigation will be launched, and the CEO will be discovered to have run several scams already in the past. By that time the man will have departed to some foreign country with no extradition treaty and enjoying a life of pleasure.

  • No. They could however launch a boxcar of bullshit into space. Didn't Elon Musk do that?

    • No, but he did launch a car he first proposed to sell to the public in 2014 [wikipedia.org] ... that's similar for all relevant purposes.

  • (In bad french accent)Thanks but he's already got one... its real nice.
    (Referring to the sun of course instead of a grail.)
  • by joe_frisch ( 1366229 ) on Sunday June 19, 2022 @06:36PM (#62634592)
    If someone knows how to make a compact net-energy generating fusion device, it will basically solve climate change AND make the inventor the wealthiest person in history. Practical compact fusion is litterally worth a trillion dollars.

    I'm a big fan of space but why in gods name would someone think space propulsion was the best first case use of this?

    The orbitron site is remarkably content free - except for a picture that looks a lot like an arc-reactor from Iron Man (which in case they missed it was a MOVIE, not reality). A very broad range of fusion devices of a similar type have been shown to be impossible. If they have some trick everyone else has missed, then they will soon be making the world a much better place, and themselves vastly wealthy - but the website gives no hint of what that trick is, nor any experimental data to indicate that it exists.
    • but why in gods name would someone think space propulsion was the best first case use of this?
      Because it is by far the simplest way to use it for something ... erm, useful.
      You have a vacuum, strong electric fields, a fusion reaction -> an ion/plasma drive.

      On earth you had a hot chamber, which you hardly can use for anything.

      • by taustin ( 171655 )

        Alternately, as soon as you mention space, investors tend to disengage the brain and not look at the actual product you're hawking.

        • I doubt such investors exist.

          At least I never met one.

          Investing is usually a multi stage operation, there is no money coming anymore when the first stage(s) fail. If the investors have the slightest hint that you defrauded them: the fraud case is incoming.

          No idea in what fantasy world you are living, that you think otherwise.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      We already have the technology to solve the climate crisis. What we don't have is the political will.

      Even if someone invented a working fusion reactor tomorrow, presumably the reaction would be the same as it has been to renewables. Update too slow, vested interests lobbying hard against it, a list of 8 reasons why fission is better from world-nuclear.org...

    • Spacecraft propulsion doesn't require power production. A fusion reaction with a Q of 1 will not be self sustaining, but will still double the power output of a fusion propulsion system.

  • Uncle Sam, i.e. us, gets ripped off yet again. *sigh*

  • Yes, it's very easy to launch a small fusion reactor into space. Now, will the reactor produce energy? That's the hard part.

  • ...they can just use the Easter Bunny to load it onto Santa's sleigh and he'll carry it as high as he can before handing off to the Tooth Fairy to take it orbital.

    I know, because an AI told me.

  • Containment on the Sun comes from gravity. If you accelerated the ship fast enough, you could get containment from acceleration. This is one fusion concept that would work in space but not on Earth, since reactors accelerating fast enough to contain fusion reactions are hypersonic missiles on steroids which is generally not desirable for a power plant. OTOH, that's probably not what they're attempting and you might need an initial acceleration for containment that's already impractical, not to mention th

    • Containment on the Sun comes from gravity. If you accelerated the ship fast enough, you could get containment from acceleration.

      No you couldn't. Mass amplification is not present in the reference frame of the spacecraft - just as viewed from outside at a different relative velocity. (Even if you could use it for gravitational containment for fusion you'd need to first accelerate to within a tad of lightspeed, for which you'd need to have run a lot of fusion for a darned long time to get the power to do t

  • So the device is apparently a modified knight trap, in which deuterium ions achieve long-term elliptical orbits in the vicinity of a central wire or spindle-shaped electrode at about -600,000 V and in which they exhibit self-organized oscillatory bunching behavior.

    I wonder if this can simultaneously confine two different elements with sufficient collisions between them to achieve useful rates of aneutronic fusion?

    If the orbits of protons and boron 11 didn't have enough intersection, deuterons and boron 10 o

  • They will likely take in a lot of money, though.
  • "I should be able to reduce this paper to practice in five years!" --Every over-optimistic fusion researcher ever.

    I suppose the good news is that with this new technology, workable fusion power is now only 20 years away. That's a lot better than it was back in 1960 when it was (checks notes) a whole 20 years away.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd *love* to see large-scale fusion power, and I'm confident that we'll figure it out some day. I just don't think that something that's still at the academic paper stage

One half large intestine = 1 Semicolon

Working...