South Korea Turns To Surveillance As 'Ghost Surgeries' Shake Faith In Hospitals (nytimes.com) 71
After scandals in which doctors let unsupervised assistants operate on patients, South Korea is becoming one of the first to require cameras in operating rooms. The New York Times reports: Ethicists and medical officials, including those at the American College of Surgeons, have cautioned that surveilling surgeons to deter malpractice may undermine trust in doctors, hurt morale, violate patient privacy and discourage physicians from taking risks to save lives. The Korea Medical Association, which is opposed to the new mandate, has lobbied to limit its impact. But supporters of the law said the move would help protect patients, build the public's trust in doctors and provide victims of medical malpractice with evidence to use in court.
"People are dying in operating rooms," said An Gi-jong, an advocate for patients. "We can't rely on doctors to solve problems on their own anymore." About five patients have died from ghost surgeries in the past eight years, he said. They include Kwon Dae-hee, a college student in Seoul who died of a hemorrhage in 2016 after jawline surgery. His mother, Lee Na-geum, who obtained footage of his operation and reviewed it hundreds of times, found evidence that the operation had been botched because parts of it had been conducted by an unsupervised nursing assistant. Ms. Lee, 62, who has held a public vigil denouncing ghost surgeries since her son's death, said in an interview: "Once the cameras are installed, your lies will be exposed if you're a ghost doctor. Cameras reveal truth." [...]
Under the new law, hospitals performing surgeries on unconscious patients must install video cameras in their operating rooms. If a patient or a relative requests that a surgery be filmed, the hospital must comply. Doctors can refuse for certain reasons, such as if a delay in the operation would put the patient's life at risk, or if the filming would significantly impede residents' training. The recorded footage can be viewed for criminal investigations, prosecutions, trials, medical disputes or mediation.
"People are dying in operating rooms," said An Gi-jong, an advocate for patients. "We can't rely on doctors to solve problems on their own anymore." About five patients have died from ghost surgeries in the past eight years, he said. They include Kwon Dae-hee, a college student in Seoul who died of a hemorrhage in 2016 after jawline surgery. His mother, Lee Na-geum, who obtained footage of his operation and reviewed it hundreds of times, found evidence that the operation had been botched because parts of it had been conducted by an unsupervised nursing assistant. Ms. Lee, 62, who has held a public vigil denouncing ghost surgeries since her son's death, said in an interview: "Once the cameras are installed, your lies will be exposed if you're a ghost doctor. Cameras reveal truth." [...]
Under the new law, hospitals performing surgeries on unconscious patients must install video cameras in their operating rooms. If a patient or a relative requests that a surgery be filmed, the hospital must comply. Doctors can refuse for certain reasons, such as if a delay in the operation would put the patient's life at risk, or if the filming would significantly impede residents' training. The recorded footage can be viewed for criminal investigations, prosecutions, trials, medical disputes or mediation.
5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:1, Troll)
G-g-g-ghost surgeries? (Score:3, Funny)
YOINKS!
Re:G-g-g-ghost surgeries? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's only the ones they know about, because they happened to be recorded. That's the point; without cameras, you'd never know, unless the guilty parties chose to incriminate themselves.
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, that guy that drive his car through that parade in Wisconsin briefly made the news, but quickly faded as that he didn't appear to be a white supremacist.
I did find this link [nbcnews.com].
Re:5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:4, Insightful)
That was a huge story. What makes you think it was "briefly"?
So there were 33 mass shooting events this month (May 2022), only one really made the national news, the others mostly being overshadowed outside of local coverage. So maybe... the news focuses on what brings in viewers, and there's not actually an agenda to keep the right wing masses down, not an agenda against guns, not a replacement conspiracy? CNN, lots of OMG stories; Fox, lots of OMG stories to the point where it's not news but instead 100% entertainment; MSNBC, lots of OMG look at how bad the other news channels are; etc. US news media is just click-bait with better make-up.
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Gun ownership isn't really a left vs right thing. There are hunters who are liberal and conservative, marksmen who are both, hobbyists who are both. However the right wing media is heavily pushing the lie that "they're coming to take your guns away", and that pushes the issue far harder than the "let's have sensible regulation" squad. Also the fact that you threw in the non-sequitur of race here is highly suspicious. You know this isn't about race right even though your overlords at Fox are trying to co
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You really can't tell the difference? Do you actually need me to explain it to you?
Re:5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:4, Insightful)
More people die from car accidents than guns, but the gun attacks seem to get media attention whereas the car accidents don't.
The journalists drive cars daily and aren't very interested in the risks so why would their readers be?
A shooting? That's a story!
A terrorist attack once per decade? Why aren't we spending trillions and invading everybody's privacy to prevent that?? Something must be done!
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:3)
We need common sense vehicle control people!!
We do though, and we have that. We have a national safety testing program at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Training is required for young people, along with hours of supervised operation. Training is required for other license classes. Vehicles are restricted by license class. Licensing is universally required to operate in public and you must carry a photo ID. Applicants must pass written and driving tests. Interstate compacts can prevent getting relicensed if it was taken away i
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We need common sense vehicle control people!!
We do though, and we have that. We have a national safety testing program at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Training is required for young people, along with hours of supervised operation. Training is required for other license classes. Vehicles are restricted by license class. Licensing is universally required to operate in public and you must carry a photo ID. Applicants must pass written and driving tests. Interstate compacts can prevent getting relicensed if it was taken away in another state. Vehicles are registered in state databases, tracked and taxed to pay for all the above. Liability insurance is legally required.
Auto safety laws are continually evolving. Anything to do with gun safety turns into THEYRE TEKING OUR GUNZ!
The required training is a joke. In states like Texas, once you turn 18 it is incredibly easy to get a license. This results in roads being flooded with unskilled drivers. And once you get your license your driving skills and/or knowledge are never re-tested. They may check your eyesight and take a new picture of you every 10 years but that is it.
Getting a license to drive a vehicle should be standardized across the entire country. Everyone should be tested for competency behind the wheel and of knowled
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You will die one day anyways, can I intentionally run you over with my car?
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:2)
The journalists drive cars daily and aren't very interested in the risks so why would their readers be?
A shooting? That's a story!
It's funny how people get all excited for justice when murder is involved, but nobody cares about the drunk that wraps himself around a tree, right?
Vehicular homicides are well covered in the media, but if I check my cell phone and drive into a brick wall, I might only end up on Reddit. How strange!1
Should murder be reported on less because it makes guns look bad? I think if you drive a car into some people, that makes the national news, correct? Why is the media biased against murder???11q
Idiot.
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When car accidents kill 10 people in one go, they get plenty of attention.
Also, most car accidents are just that, accidents. Far too many gun incidents are not accidents but are murders.
Now, go back to Ethics 101 and do try to learn this time.
Re:5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:5, Interesting)
More people die from car accidents than guns, but the gun attacks seem to get media attention whereas the car accidents don't.
You are aware that by using this argument, you're not demonstrating that guns are safe, you're point out that not only are you irresponsible with guns, but you drive so badly that you shouldn't be trusted with a car either.
The safest states are in the Nordic region, they manage 2-3.5 deaths per 100,000 pop. Western Europe manages around 5, expanding that to include the entirety of the EU and other western nations puts it around 6 road fatalities per 100,000 people. Canada has 5.8 deaths per 100,000.
The US has 12.4 deaths per 100,000 pop. That puts around the same as Egypt, Turkey and Chile. basically the US has the road fatality rate of a country where you can almost literally buy a license and the road rules are never enforced unless the cop needs some extra pocket money.
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basically the US has the road fatality rate of a country where you can almost literally buy a license and the road rules are never enforced unless the cop needs some extra pocket money.
Thats because at least in some US states you can almost literally buy a license and only the most egregious road violations are enforced, and of course DWB.
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The number of deaths between the two is about equal. In 2019 there were 39,707 gun deaths in the U.S. [nsc.org], In 2019 there were 37.595 motor vehicle deaths [cdc.gov].
Conversely, there were 45,222 deaths from guns in 2020, whereas 38,680 died in car accidents.
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TFA suggests that less serious instances are much more common than that, with some hospitals regularly having students and nurses perform parts of operations.
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:1)
Go read a dictionary... (Score:3)
There is a reason their profession is called a PRACTICE
Yes. Yes there is. Not your kind of reason though.
practice /ËpraktÉs/
noun: practice
1.
the actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.
"the principles and practice of teaching"
Similar:
application exercise use operation implementation execution enactment action doing make use of put to use utilize apply employ put into effect/operation draw on bring into play
the carrying out or exercise of a profession, especially that of a doctor or lawyer.
"he abandoned medical practice for the Church"
Similar:
profession career business work pursuit occupation following the business or premises of a doctor or lawyer.
plural noun: practices
"Dr Apps has a practice in Neasham Road"
Similar:
business firm office partnership company enterprise outfit
2.
the customary, habitual, or expected procedure or way of doing of something.
"product placement is common practice in American movies"
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A student doctor supervised by an attending is one thing. An RN performing surgery without supervision is another.
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:3)
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That's why we have those things known as The Fine Article. In it you would see that there were multiple cases of nurse assistants operation with no doctor in the room.
As for the number of viewings, people in surgical gear tend to look a lot alike, so a few viewings may be needed to keep track of who's who.
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Indeed. A non-problem blown all out of proportion. Will probably cause more people to die because problems with real impact get put on the back-burner.
Re:5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:5, Informative)
It's a problem all over. Take this one for example.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-w... [justice.gov]
More specifically, the complaint alleges that Dr. Luketich – the longtime chair of UPMC’s Department of Cardiothoracic Surgery – regularly performs as many as three, complex surgical procedures at the same time, fails to participate in all of the “key and critical” portions of his surgeries, and forces his patients to endure hours of medically unnecessary anesthesia time, as he moves between operating rooms and attends to other patients or matters.
Keep reading and you'll see that he was only investigated because of whistleblower leading to Medicare fraud. So you see the priority here.
Re: 5 dead in 8 years? C'mon now. (Score:1)
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Sort of. What other oversight is there? Regulations in the US tend to be reactive rather than proactive. Without expensive oversight, inspections, and monitoring, this relies upon people complaining before action is taken.
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FWIW, when my wife had heart surgery, the doctor whose name was assigned to the operation did not do it. He had a student doctor do it. But this was not hidden, and he was on call if needed. It was a teaching hospital, and I never had ANY reason to complain about the surgical care they gave her. (Other things, though, were worthy of complaint. The nurses frequently took too long to respond to a request for help while she was in the early stages of recovery. And there were constant fights with the kitc
same old excuses (Score:5, Insightful)
The exact same excuses that were rolled out when police were required to start wearing cameras..
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I wonder what kind of risks a surgeon might take to save a life that he/she wouldn't take if being watched.
Re:same old excuses (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't have to kill somebody to ruin their life in an operating theater.
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One of the one hand, doctors should be entitled to privacy in their day to day job. At the end of the day, it's a job like any other that becomes 'routine' for them. I don't doubt doctors might be caught casually talking about where to eat while performing surgery or making a joke... To us, it's a life or death surgery. To them, it's just another day at the office. I get that.
On the other hand, much like police officers, they are in such a position of power of you that you might need video evidence of somet
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If doctors operate on themselves, then they should be allowed the privacy to do whatever the hell they want while operating. Once they have a patient though, they should have zero expectations of privacy. Even myself, working on other people's equipment, other customer's equipment, admin access to vital data, should not assume I have the privacy to do whatever the hell I want. When your actions affect another person, and can cause harm, then privacy rights go out the window.
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It would depend on who is watching them. Having a judge watching them might distract them. There was an infamous case of a surgeon attending court via Zoom call while performing surgery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
The man was "supervising" while his student, a surgical fellow, completed the plastic surgery involved. The surgeon was interviewed and didn't seem to understand his mistake.
I think the point is they'll play things safe (Score:2)
I could see it being a problem. Human beings are only capable of having so many distractions at any one given moment.
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There is also the fact that people feeling watched have reduced mental capability to deal with problems at hand. And then there will be lawsuits for some common practices that actually work but look bad on camera.
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If you know you're being watched then you might play it too safe. You might second guess things based on whether or not it'll play well in front of a jury rather than whether it will save the patient. The idea is you want a doctor focused on solving the problem at hand rather than distracted by thinking about the malpractice lawsuit that might result. I could see it being a problem. Human beings are only capable of having so many distractions at any one given moment.
Not informing people who is doing what to your body, not following what you say you are going to do and generally treating your patients badly cause things like this. I work with a camera on me all the time. Time for these overpaid buffoons to do it too.
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If you know you're being watched then you might play it too safe.
You mean they'll have to actually practice by the "first, do no harm" principle?
Clearly, if that is achievable with cameras, then no amount of cameras taped or screwed on to or around the medical staff to prevent them from screwing with patients' lives and health could ever be too many.
You know... to prevent stuff like surgeons doing meth before surgery cause it gives them the edge and the energy needed.
My girlfriend's sister recently broke up with a surgeon like that, after finding out about the meth pract
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That is something that would affect new surgeons in training. It's something you get used to and goes quickly out of mind. Especially if you design the camera placement to be inconspicuous. But at least they won't get left alone in the OR before they're ready. It's not like you're in full awareness of how many security cameras there are when you're in a retail store. You're not spending every moment worrying if your body language makes it look like you're trying to steal when you're really not.
The most
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So what if the doctor isn't so good, has been overworked, is putting in too many hours because it's more money that way, or is pressured by the hospital to put in more hours, is taking drugs to stay away, etc? If this were an auto mechanic, I would agree with you. But this person is operating on a real person, a person, and mistakes can be fatal or cause irreparable harm. Remember, in a medical setting, the patient is supposed to be more important than the doctor.
Also cameras are becoming routing in surg
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If you know you're being watched then you might play it too safe. You might second guess things based on whether or not it'll play well in front of a jury rather than whether it will save the patient.
Yes. All I am asking for is a single example of when someone might play it too safe.
problems (Score:4, Funny)
Should solve this problem [smbc-comics.com].
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https://www.smbc-comics.com/in... [smbc-comics.com]
FTFY
Need the proper link to get access to the flyover and red button.
Remove their licence (Score:2)
Ghost surgeries? (Score:1)
AMA (Score:2)
I say install Amazon's Camera based checkout system so we know just how many supplies were use in the surgery and how many are being overcharged.
Generate itemized bills based upon what actually is used not what the nurses input in.
Will solve the problem of hospitals overcharging.
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The patient will just get arrested for shoplifting when they are alerted that a tool was left in their abdominal cavity.
"Ghost surgery" definition (Score:3)
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Hospitals don't have enough surgery rooms. So when you order surgery on Doordash, sometimes the ambulance will take you to a ghost surgery location. There is no signage on the outside of the building. You're never heard from again. Shouldn't have paid for the surgery in crypto.
Dr. Nick Riviera: Any Operation For $129.95 (Score:3)
Dr. Nick Riviera: Any Operation For $129.95
Why? (Score:2)
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It sounds more like negligent homicide. I really doubt they intended to kill anyone.
Korean Medical Association turned evil. (Score:2)
Their complaint was cameras "may undermine trust in doctors, hurt morale, violate patient privacy and discourage physicians from taking risks to save lives."
Anytime someone says a camera undermine trust, hurt morale, violate privacy, or discourage risks, they are evil.
1) People do not ask for cameras if they trust. You only get that after the trust is GONE. Moreover, trustworthy people want the cameras to help fight false accusations.
2) Your morale is worth nothing. Definitely not worth the risks you are
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Argument 4 is weak. Often in the process of doing something we discover something unexpected that needs to be done in order for the best, or even working, results.
OTOH, the last time I had surgery the forms I had to sign would have authorized them to do just about anything. And that's already in place.
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Commonplace (Score:4, Interesting)
"Ghost" surgeries are a commonplace in the US. The US pays more for care at "teaching" hospitals. This was supposed to help teaching hospitals like Mayo Clinic, but hospitals are not stupid, so every one is now a "teaching" hospital. When you sign a consent at a "teaching" hospital, you agree that a student might be the one working on you. And, they do.
Oh, you can cross out that part of the contract, but they will ignore that anyway.
No see-um scam (Score:2)
I'm thinking of having some home improvement done so I've been watching a lot of contractor videos. This reminds me of one about what was called the "no see-um" scam or something like that. Basically, if the item that needs to be serviced is difficult to access, the contractor will use inferior parts, used parts, or do a duct-tape repair that doesn't last. In the case of the video I was watching, it was a water pump that was located underground to avoid frost. The good contractor was digging it back out
Other ghosts ... (Score:2)
Not mentioned in the article is the other kind of 'ghost' surgery ... one in which the doctor/facility bills for a treatment ... which didn't actually occur.
Part of this proposal isn't just to cut down on bad procedures, it is also to provide solid evidence that a billed treatment actually did occur.
Not S. Korea, but certain other SE Asian countries have developed a rep in the medical/travel insurance business for this scam. The camera proposal has been floating around for years ... but blocked by the usua
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