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Moon Space

Putin Says Russia Will Resume Lunar Program (arstechnica.com) 190

Posted by BeauHD from the trying-to-sound-impressive dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Putin said Russia is working on a "next-generation transport ship," as well as a nuclear-powered space tug. And, according to Russian media reports, Putin added, "We will resume the lunar program." The next-generation ship presumably refers to the "Orel," or Eagle, spacecraft that would be capable of launching cosmonauts into low Earth orbit as well as to the Moon. The problem with this is that Orel, under various guises and names, has been in development for nearly two decades and is likely years away from flying -- if it ever does. And the nuclear-powered space tug is a concept that is years or more likely decades-to-never away from launching.

That leaves the lunar program Putin mentioned. He is referring to a series of three robotic missions planned for launch to the Moon, Luna 25, Luna 26, and Luna 27. These missions, too, have been in the planning stages for a long, long time. Luna 25 was originally scheduled to launch on a Soyuz rocket a decade ago, and its current launch date is now August 2022. There is reason to be skeptical about all of the above happening, because even before the war in Ukraine, Putin significantly slashed Roscosmos' budget. Now, more resources than ever will likely be devoted to the war effort. Hours after Putin made his announcements, the European Space Agency (ESA) Council agreed to discontinue cooperative activities with Russia on the three Luna missions. "The Russian aggression against Ukraine and the resulting sanctions put in place represent a fundamental change of circumstances and make it impossible for ESA to implement the planned lunar cooperation," the space agency said in a statement.

Instead, the council said it would now work with NASA and its commercial partners.
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Putin Says Russia Will Resume Lunar Program More

Putin Says Russia Will Resume Lunar Program

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  • "Oh look, a puppy! Look at the cute puppy!" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @10:34PM (#62444868) Journal
    This is just a diversionary tactic, and a weak one at that, trying to distract the rest of the world from the illegal terrorist attacks on Ukraine and the crimes against humanity/genocide that is being committed by Russia. LOL nice try, Vlad. Now go fuck yourself, mmkay?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rnturn ( 11092 )

      Yeah... I was going to post ``Look at the Wookie!'' but it's the same sort of diversion/distraction. And obvious as hell to everyone why it's being done. Do Putin and his propagandists really think anyone can't see why they make announcements like this?

    • Re:"Oh look, a puppy! Look at the cute puppy!" (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Thursday April 14, 2022 @12:19AM (#62445006)

      Sure, it's a good distraction, but I think it also speaks to his mental state. Putin seems to be pining for the glory days of the USSR, complete with their substantial victories in the space race - at least up until the moon landings. The man is dangerously delusional, living for past glories by a brutal, repressive regime.

      Seriously, Russians need to stop letting these mad butchers take control of their country.

      • Seriously, Russians need to stop letting these mad butchers take control of their country.

        Eh, the poor fuckers haven't had a non-dictatorial government in their entire history. They like it that way or something.

        I think it has something to do with the weather.

        • My observation is that after the industrial revolution and communist revolutions and democratic revolutions, after every country has moved into modernity, they still keep their ancient form of government. Thus China has the decorations of a soviet regime, but in practice acts more like an ancient dynasty. The French, after their revolution, turned to autocratic leaders. It took a century to really adapt to democracy. Even in the US, George Washington tried to act regally as a president, and after he retired

        • Eh, the poor fuckers haven't had a non-dictatorial government in their entire history.

          Kerensky was not a dictator, nor was Yeltsin.

          • Yeltsin shelled the parliament in 1993.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Malc ( 1751 )

            How long did they last?

          • Yeltsin was absolutely a dictator. He had to be to implement the changes he wanted to make. That doesn't mean he was a Bad Guy (TM). He was clearly a mostly benevolent dictator.

            As for Kerensky? Give me a fucking break.
            The Provisional Government never had control over the country.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jd ( 1658 )

        They made substantial progress the same way SpaceX and Tesla did - by having a lone genius not tied down with the usual corporate crap that lowers intelligence and ability, but gives them a single point of failure that's guaranteed to go insane and/or die because lone geniuses do that when they're pushed too hard or when the system is too extreme (regardless of the extreme). Russian education currently precludes that kind of lone genius, so Putin is in trouble. You also can't predict when one will arise, it

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      Mod parent funny.

      My related joke of the day:

      Putin: "The Ukraine war situation is not necessarily developing to Russia's advantage."

      @ZelenskyyUa : "Shut up, Vlad. You lost. Now get your stinking war criminals out of #Ukraine."

      Bozo Putin: "Is not war crime. Is potato."

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dbialac ( 320955 )
      Well considering how robust Russian tanks are and how well supplied their troops are, I don't see their missions going too far. They'll be using rations from today for their first mission in 2030.

  • Cool (Score:2, Troll)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 )

    I support space research, even by crazy people.

    btw Putin is an ok guy, he just needs to be a barista not a president. I bet he'd have crazy stories to tell.

    • I think Putin's idea of a Lunar program involves using a trampoline to put political dissidents on the moon.

    • Re:Cool (Score:5, Funny)

      by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:59PM (#62444980)

      btw Putin is an ok guy, he just needs to be a barista not a president. I bet he'd have crazy stories to tell.

      Let me get this straight... you're suggesting Putin should be in charge of people's food and drink? I don't think there'd be a whole lot of demand for a Polonium Frappe...

    • I'm not sure Starbucks is really looking to the 'murderous thug' demo for their employees, but then I don't really go there. Maybe I misunderstand their whole 'thing'.

  • It smells of Trump-style lies. Him and Putin had various unrecorded meetings, which I always took to be opportunities for trump to get his instructions straight from his handler. But maybe it was mutual lessons in confabulation.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rnturn ( 11092 )

      ``maybe it was mutual lessons in confabulation''

      They both need lessons from someone who is better at it.

      • Tell that to the millions who believe them. People are easily swayed so long as you give them some group of people to really, really hate.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      To use some personalities from Harry Potter, the former alleged president is a carbon copy of Gilderoy Lockhart, always ready to take credit for something that merely happened and had no connection with him, and then weenied out when presented with an opportunity to show what a "leader" (however dyspeptic) he was, i.e., claiming he *wanted* to march on the Capitol but was prevented by the Secret Service, what a crock.

      The Great Putini is a clone of Lord Voldemort. He rules by fear and is above crime in the s

  • Essential vs. Accidental Complexity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by archatheist ( 316491 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @10:39PM (#62444882)

    You know what makes it hard to land people on the Moon and then return them safely to Earth? Not having money or a high-tech industry, and being in the middle of a massive technology "brain drain."

  • It's just nationalism (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:05PM (#62444918)
    He's trying to get his nationalists in his country whooped up. He doesn't have enough money to do anything really after what he's wasted in Ukraine and what little he has left the sanctions'll wipe out.

    This isn't even bluster it's bald face propaganda. But he controls the media.
    • You're right- it is just food for the nationalists.

      However, he doesn't need "money" in the sense that you're using it. When you get right down to it, the difference between a moonshot and LEO is just rocket size, and the Russians have experience making rockets big enough. They can devalue the ruble into the dirt vs external currencies, and it won't matter one tiny fucking bit if people inside keep exchanging their work for them.
      • At this point, they're bound to run out even of imported chemicals necessary for Soyuz launches, not to mention their ability to design and build a much larger launcher. Even Angara has been in development since 1990s, and it still hasn't been finished, and that was in peacetime.

        • At this point, they're bound to run out even of imported chemicals necessary for Soyuz launches, not to mention their ability to design and build a much larger launcher.

          Russia does not need to import RP-1 or Syntin- what the fuck are you talking about?.
          They're the third-largest hydrocarbon producer in the world. They could supply the rest of the world with rocket fuel, if that was a business they wanted to be in.

          Even Angara has been in development since 1990s, and it still hasn't been finished, and that was in peacetime.

          That's pretty misleading.
          Angara suffers from SLS-itis. That is, it's big and fucking expensive, and there are cheaper alternatives right here right now that fit the bill, so it's not allocated Cold-War era resources.

          The N1 was a good rocket design that was scra

          • Russia does not need to import RP-1 or Syntin- what the fuck are you talking about?

            As far as I'm aware, Russia has been purchasing very high test peroxide and related chemicals from Germany. It has been simply more convenient to purchase them from a Western manufacturer at a reasonable price than keeping such specialty industry alive. Sure they *could* replace it domestically, but not instantly, especially considering the current situation -- the last remaining manufacturer of HTP in Russia finally went bankrupt in 2019. And Russians themselves have warned about the issue. [archive.ph]

            That's pretty misleading. Angara suffers from SLS-itis. That is, it's big and fucking expensive, and there are cheaper alternatives right here right now

            Such as? As far

            • As far as I'm aware, Russia has been purchasing very high test peroxide and related chemicals from Germany.

              Maybe. But that's not because they can't manufacture it. It's because it's cheaper.
              On the other side of that, every space-faring country on the planet is getting their helium from Russia. That's just how economies work.
              Unable to get helium from Russia hasn't shut down the US space program. It just made it a bit more expensive.

              It has been simply more convenient to purchase them from a Western manufacturer at a reasonable price than keeping such specialty industry alive. Sure they *could* replace it domestically, but not instantly, especially considering the current situation -- the last remaining manufacturer of HTP in Russia finally went bankrupt in 2019. And Russians themselves have warned about the issue. [archive.ph]

              No argument with any of this.
              Once borders close, economics change, and things that weren't reasonable to produce domestically become reasonable again.
              Metal production in the US is

              • Those are the cheaper alternatives I speak of.

                But they're not good enough for lunar flights. Had they been, the Soviets would have actually used them for a lunar mission. Except the whole Soyuz-A/B/V thing was scrapped early on.

                Are you honestly claiming, with a straight face, that they lacked the capability to produce a better flight computer?

                Actually, the reason why I brought up the analog guidance was to point out that Soyuz was so simple that it didn't *need* a better one. *That* is why I'm saying that it's difficult to imagine something simpler than Soyuz. It's so dumb and simple that you never needed even the simplest digital circuitry for it to work.

                In the same breath, I want you to tell me that he SLS uses 1980s engines because the US lacks the capability to make better engines.

                The problem

                • But they're not good enough for lunar flights. Had they been, the Soviets would have actually used them for a lunar mission. Except the whole Soyuz-A/B/V thing was scrapped early on.

                  No, they're not. But the moon wasn't a goal until now.

                  Actually, the reason why I brought up the analog guidance was to point out that Soyuz was so simple that it didn't *need* a better one. *That* is why I'm saying that it's difficult to imagine something simpler than Soyuz. It's so dumb and simple that you never needed even the simplest digital circuitry for it to work.

                  Correct. So what's your point?

                  The problem is that the best thing that the US has is Falcon, not SLS. A single full engine set for a Falcon costs less nowadays than a single RD-191 engine. Clearly the US has by now mastered both insanely cheap manufacturing (previously the domain of Russia) AND economical reuse. There's literally no other way to beat this than to exceed SpaceX on both parameters, and no project in Russia is headed in that direction.

                  You can't get people to the moon on a Falcon, either.
                  Cost-wise, ya, Falcon is rad.
                  But even a FH isn't going to get anything more than a couple tons into lunar orbit.

                  So again, SLS uses shuttle engines.
                  Do you also claim we can't engineer new engines for it?

                  • Correct. So what's your point?

                    That the claim that "there are cheaper alternatives right here right now that fit the bill" is not quite true for Russia. They do need something better than what they have, yet the only country in the world that currently has something at least marginally useful for a lunar program is the US (with the number of such systems potentially increasing from 1 to 3 in the next few years).

                    You can't get people to the moon on a Falcon, either.

                    Debatable. Any Soyuz-A/B/V-like plan would work much better with a Falcon, given its double payload and fractional cost relative

                    • That the claim that "there are cheaper alternatives right here right now that fit the bill" is not quite true for Russia. They do need something better than what they have, yet the only country in the world that currently has something at least marginally useful for a lunar program is the US (with the number of such systems potentially increasing from 1 to 3 in the next few years).

                      That was said in reference to why more money wasn't thrown at Angara. Angara's primary purpose was not the moon. It was a replacement for Soyuz. A replacement that really... just wasn't needed.

                      Debatable. Any Soyuz-A/B/V-like plan would work much better with a Falcon, given its double payload and fractional cost relative to Soyuz. So would a simple refuel-in-orbit system.

                      Cost is not relevant here. Not even a tiny little bit. I don't get how you could possibly think it is.
                      The cost is important from the perspective of SpaceX's business, because they're hoping to be in the commercial launch business.
                      The most expensive launches in history didn't even stress the books. They're just not t

                    • Angara's primary purpose was not the moon. It was a replacement for Soyuz. A replacement that really... just wasn't needed.

                      Actually, it was more a replacement for Proton, since that's what they wanted to transition all of their Proton launches to. But the point is that *they can't manage to even accomplish that*. Lunar missions are simply out of reach for them.

                      Cost is not relevant here. Not even a tiny little bit. I don't get how you could possibly think it is.

                      Cost is absolutely relevant, since bringing 1 kg to the surface of the Moon is many times more expensive than just bringing that 1 kg to low Earth orbit.

                      The point of SLS is not to consume money. It's to create a launch vehicle that there is a perceived need for and no existing alternative for.

                      There *absolutely* are alternatives, but people in power are fighting very hard against them [twitter.com]. The only people saying th

                    • Actually, it was more a replacement for Proton, since that's what they wanted to transition all of their Proton launches to. But the point is that *they can't manage to even accomplish that*. Lunar missions are simply out of reach for them.

                      I assume you mean manned lunar missions, in which case, they're out of reach for... everyone, since nobody is making the Saturn V anymore, the SLS isn't online, and Starship isn't anywhere close, and Soyuz-2 is perfectly suitable for TLI.

                      Cost is absolutely relevant, since bringing 1 kg to the surface of the Moon is many times more expensive than just bringing that 1 kg to low Earth orbit.

                      Again, no, it's not, since the cost of a launch isn't even a rounding error for even a poor government.

                      There *absolutely* are alternatives, but people in power are fighting very hard against them [twitter.com]. The only people saying that "there is no alternative for SLS" are people who are either ignorant of the alternatives, or have a financial interest in SLS being funded.

                      No, the people saying there is no alternative for SLS are people who are relaying a literally incontrovertible fact.
                      Are there alternatives that could be developed? Yes.

                    • Again, no, it's not, since the cost of a launch isn't even a rounding error for even a poor government.

                      That is a barefaced lie. The immense cost of spaceflight stems from the immense cost of putting things into space. And any government short of a dictatorship has to justify its costs to taxpayers.

                      No, the people saying there is no alternative for SLS are people who are relaying a literally incontrovertible fact.

                      Are there alternatives that could be developed? Yes. Nobody claimed otherwise.

                      Uh...pick one? You can't simultaneously claim that there are no alternatives and that there *are* alternatives.

                      There are plenty of potential alternatives

                      All alternatives are potential. [wiktionary.org] They're the things you could be doing instead but aren't doing at the moment.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It will matter when they need to buy materials from outside Russia. Even back in the days of the USSR's space programme they needed to buy stuff from other countries, and of course back then they had all those eastern European states to supply them too.

        • It is overwhelmingly unlikely that the Russians will not be able to source the materials, domestically or otherwise, to make rockets.

          If that happens, it will be the first time the western world has ever successfully accomplished that, in spite of 70 years of trying.

      • However, he doesn't need "money" in the sense that you're using it.

        He does if he wants to pay people, who rarely do their best work while being forced at gunpoint. It tends to become a preoccupation. And right now the ruble is bumwad.

        • The ruble is only bumwad in foreign exchange.
          Right now the ruble is working just fine in Russia.
          The full effect of the sanctions will be a 25%-or-so reduction of their GDP.
          That's a huge fucking deal, but it's hardly post-Versailles Germany.

          Right now, today, people are still working for rubles. No guns needed. They're still buying shit they need with rubles. Non-domestic shit is of course problematic, so they can look forward to the good ol' insular Soviet economy again, but no, Russia is not dependent

          • Right now the ruble is working just fine in Russia.

            Great, so people can purchase Russian goods which don't depend on foreign supply. I hope they enjoy their beets. It's kind of hard to attract the best talent on that basis.

            Russia is not dependent on other countries for subsistence.

            No, but Russians prefer to subsist on imports. Russia only became a net exporter of food when they forced it to happen.

  • The moon is old hat (Score:3)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:12PM (#62444928)

    Mars, Venus, Europa, Titan, Io, Ganymede -- those are the places to go. But yeah we definitely need a permanent moon base.

  • How about going to a grocery store instead? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:18PM (#62444934)

    Why doesn't he take on a more difficult mission for Russia, like finding a grocery store with well-stocked shelves? https://www.newsweek.com/russi... [newsweek.com]

     

  • Hell, they can't even get a foothold right outside their own borders. Who do they think the are kidding? Ukraine is showing the world where Russia truly needs to go ... hell.

  • What he really meant (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pp ( 4753 ) on Thursday April 14, 2022 @01:00AM (#62445038)

    Space rockets are pretty much the same as ICBM's. He's really saying "We're very serious about our nuclear program, but that would be admitting we want war, so instead I'll say we're working on something completely peaceful and good for national prestige"

    • They aren't serious about their nuclear program. They haven't been maintaining their stash. It costs too much money and isn't really worth it.

    • Re:What he really meant (Score:4)

      by hackertourist ( 2202674 ) on Thursday April 14, 2022 @02:09AM (#62445106)

      That was true at the start of the space race. The R-7, Redstone, Atlas, Titan all had their origins in ICBMs. Pretty soon they started to diverge though. Every ICBM nowadays uses solid fuel and is tiny compared to the liquid-fueled rockets used for spaceflight (and especially the sort of rocket that can get a decent payload to the Moon).
      So: different type of engine, very different size, different launch method. The overlap is pretty small.

  • There is NOTHING Putin can do to redeem his image as anything resembling a benevolent leader

  • Who will Russia pair off with?

  • Same sticks as the old sticks.

  • The opinions are still divided ;-)

  • The Russians wouldn't be able to even source parts/material to build all this stuff, or be able to afford it.

  • Russia should have opened with peaceful space exploration. Instead of invading all their neighbors. Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Chechnya (it's complicated), Ukraine, Syria (Russia joined one islamist group to fight another islamist group), .. I'm sure I'm leaving a few out.

    But Russia was able to help fight the CPC in the Central African Republic and put an end to hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the violence there. Of course in Ukraine they managed to cause 10x more refugees.

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