Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Space Science

We May Finally Be Able To Test One of Stephen Hawking's Most Far-Out Ideas (livescience.com) 87

New submitter GFS666 shares a report from Live Science: We may soon be able to test one of Stephen Hawking's most controversial theories, new research suggests. In the 1970s, Hawking proposed that dark matter, the invisible substance that makes up most matter in the cosmos, may be made of black holes formed in the earliest moments of the Big Bang. Now, three astronomers have developed a theory that explains not only the existence of dark matter, but also the appearance of the largest black holes in the universe. "What I find personally super exciting about this idea is how it elegantly unifies the two really challenging problems that I work on -- that of probing the nature of dark matter and the formation and growth of black holes -- and resolves them in one fell swoop," study co-author Priyamvada Natarajan, an astrophysicist at Yale University, said in a statement. What's more, several new instruments -- including the James Webb Space Telescope that just launched -- could produce data needed to finally assess Hawking's famous notion.

In the latest research, Natarajan, Nico Cappelluti at the University of Miami and Gunther Hasinger at the European Space Agency took a deep dive into the theory of primordial black holes, exploring how they might explain the dark matter and possibly resolve other cosmological challenges. To pass current observational tests, primordial black holes have to be within a certain mass range. In the new work, the researchers assumed that the primordial black holes had a mass of around 1.4 times the mass of the sun. They constructed a model of the universe that replaced all the dark matter with these fairly light black holes, and then they looked for observational clues that could validate (or rule out) the model.

The team found that primordial black holes could play a major role in the universe by seeding the first stars, the first galaxies and the first supermassive black holes (SMBHs). Observations indicate that stars, galaxies and SMBHs appear very quickly in cosmological history, perhaps too quickly to be accounted for by the processes of formation and growth that we observe in the present-day universe. "Primordial black holes, if they do exist, could well be the seeds from which all supermassive black holes form, including the one at the center of the Milky Way," Natarajan said. And the theory is simple and doesn't require a zoo of new particles to explain dark matter. "Our study shows that without introducing new particles or new physics, we can solve mysteries of modern cosmology from the nature of dark matter itself to the origin of supermassive black holes," Cappelluti said in the statement.
The model could be tested relatively soon, the report says. "The James Webb Space Telescope, which launched Christmas Day after years of delays, is specifically designed to answer questions about the origins of stars and galaxies. And the next generation of gravitational wave detectors, especially the Laser Interferometer Space Antenna (LISA), is poised to reveal much more about black holes, including primordial ones if they exist."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

We May Finally Be Able To Test One of Stephen Hawking's Most Far-Out Ideas

Comments Filter:
  • Lensing (Score:5, Informative)

    by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:16AM (#62147865)

    If dark matter were black holes of approximately 1-Sol mass, they would be more common than stars. If they were so common, we would frequently see gravitational lensing events as the BHs pass in front of stars. We don't.

    The number of lensing events observed indicates that BHs are less than 1% of the matter in the Milky Way. And all of the BHs observed are 3.3-Sol or more, which is the minimum size for a BH created by the collapse of a star. Any smaller, and they would form a neutron star or white dwarf.

    • This sounds like a reasonable argument but do you know any place that gives these calculations a bit more thoroughly. Isn't it possible the lensing is so miniscule we don't statistically acknowledge it because the distance of the observed bodies?

      Likewise, a quick search for primordial black holes reveals they could be as small as 10 ounces. So it seems the suggestion is the conditions such blackholes form in might be different considering this would occur in one of the earliest stages of cosmology. Maybe ex

      • Re:Lensing (Score:5, Informative)

        by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:36AM (#62147931)

        do you know any place that gives these calculations a bit more thoroughly.

        No. I have seen the argument made but never seen the math. There are two ways of detecting black holes:

        1. Lensing events
        2. BH-BH collisions

        Lensing events would increase linearly with the number of BHs.

        Collisions would increase in proportion to the square of the number of BHs.

        We have observed both lensing events and collisions, and both predict that BHs are less than 1% of our galaxy's mass and that there are no BHs smaller than 3.3 Sol.

        they could be as small as 10 ounces.

        No way, Jose. A BH of 10 ounces would have a lifetime of 2.2e-37 sec [vttoth.com]. That is less time than it takes for light to move the diameter of a proton.

        • by jabuzz ( 182671 )

          Assuming that a microscopic black hole behaves the same as a back hole with at least the mass of a star. That is far from a given.

          • Assuming that a microscopic black hole behaves the same as a back hole with at least the mass of a star. That is far from a given.

            If the laws of physics are obeyed, then it is a given.

            If the laws of physics are violated, then dark matter can be explained by purple elephants spontaneously materializing in space.

            • by egilhh ( 689523 )

              If the laws of physics are violated, then dark matter can be explained by purple elephants spontaneously materializing in space.

              I think you mean spherical purple elephants

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by blahabl ( 7651114 )

              Assuming that a microscopic black hole behaves the same as a back hole with at least the mass of a star. That is far from a given.

              If the laws of physics are obeyed, then it is a given.

              If the laws of physics are violated, then dark matter can be explained by purple elephants spontaneously materializing in space.

              What laws of physics? You mean we have a coherent, empirically tested quantum gravity theory that I didn't hear about? Because that's what you need to model the behaviour of BH this small, including Hawking radiation.

              And even for non-quantum-sized BH the Hawking radiation effect has never been empirically confirmed, and is not quite a completely settled piece of science.

        • I don't know anything about astrophysics. But whenever I hear about one of these new theories that 'elegantly unifies' etc it always reminds me of a bunch of guys in a pub trying to stop their table from wobbling by putting bits of beer mat under different table legs.
          • I don't know anything about astrophysics. But whenever I hear about one of these new theories that 'elegantly unifies' etc it always reminds me of a bunch of guys in a pub trying to stop their table from wobbling by putting bits of beer mat under different table legs.

            That's exactly the opposite. A unifying theory removes all beer mats under the table and either levels the floor or makes the table hover. Unification means getting rid of all special cases and weird constants.

            • by iserlohn ( 49556 )

              You're missing the OP's point, which is that all of these unifying theories are just bodges/hacks to make the maths work.

      • I did a quick ddg search for "primordial black hole mass constraint" and there were plenty of articles. Wikipedia also cites many studies.

        Here's a Nature article (2019) claiming the established range is 10^-14 to 10^-9 solar masses. They then present their new results which constrain the upper bound to 10^-11. I guess the math is in there if you take a look, or at least references. So, way less than 1.3 solar masses.

      • A 1.4 solar mass black hole (which could only arise from primordial blackholes, regular star collapse needs a much higher mass) would not be miniscule. Further with smaller blackholes (Of the tiny scales you suggest) are going to interact with light in funky ways due to the wavelengths. I suspect you'll see a lot of Rayleigh scattering type interference which should in theory be detectable in optical telescopes.

        One of the problems of all of this is, we arent seeing *anything*, no chromatic aberations, no le

    • by Sique ( 173459 )
      Additionally, Black holes have a tendency to curdle, that means, they clump together as soon as they are close enough to each other. Within the last 13 billion years, we would probably have only a tiny residue left of all the ~sun mass black holes, because most of them have merged to larger ones.

      The idea of Dark Matter is that it does not merge with itself, as it has no way to dissipate the energy by means of electromagnetic waves. Thus Dark Matter is thought to form a halo around galaxies and not collect

      • Because of how primordial black holes form, couldn't there possibly be an equal number of antimatter black holes? I'm not sure if that would make any practical impact on the scenario, though.

        • by Sique ( 173459 )
          This wouldn't change the fact that black holes can merge. And antimatter black holes behave the same as black holes. Antimatter differs from matter only in its quantum numbers like electric charge, magnetic moment, color charge and similar, while mass, spin and life span is the same. So there are no "antimatter black holes". Antimatter black holes are just black holes, as a black hole is defined by only two numbers: its mass and its angular momentum. Both are not changed by switching from matter to antimatt
          • a black hole is defined by only two numbers: its mass and its angular momentum.

            Pedantic nitpick: Three numbers. A BH can also have an electric charge.

            Charged black hole [wikipedia.org]

            • by Sique ( 173459 )
              Of course... somehow this slipped my mind. But if a Black Hole devours a proton, its electrical charge increases by 1 elementary charge. And in the same sense, if it devours an electron, its charge decreases by 1.
        • couldn't there possibly be an equal number of antimatter black holes?

          No. Everything we know about physics says that antimatter has positive mass.

          AFAWK, there is no difference between a BH formed from matter and a BH formed from antimatter.

          What happens when anti-matter falls into a black hole? [stackexchange.com]

    • by jd ( 1658 )

      Primordial BHs predate stars, though, so can't form from them. They're from the inflationary phase rather than the stellar phase.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by thomst ( 1640045 )

      ShanghaiBill opined:

      If dark matter were black holes of approximately 1-Sol mass, they would be more common than stars. If they were so common, we would frequently see gravitational lensing events as the BHs pass in front of stars. We don't.

      Well ... maybe.

      Individual black holes are essentially point sources. It's their event horizons that produce the lensing effect. If dark matter exclusively consists of black holes of approximately 1 solar mass, your observation would perhaps point to a fatal flaw in the model under discussion. However, the thing about dark matter haloes around galaxies is that they appear to be mostly concentrated outside the visible part of those galaxies, in a ring much greater in diameter than the visi

      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        Are you sure that black hole evaporation is ever complete? My hand-wavy model says that when they get below a certain mass they'll stop being able to capture virtual particles, and so stop losing mass. If you know that this is wrong, I'd appreciate a link, as *I* sure can't do that kind of math.

      • BTW - the reason I asked the question in the first place is because, prior to First Light , our universe was an insanely crowded place. Given that hyper-concentration of mass, it would be astonishing if anything less than a metric buttload of black holes was created during that era - and, in fact, it seems to me almost incredible that anything except black holes survived ...

        I'm wondering if this also could be a solution for the matter antimatter difference, perhaps antimatter isn't as repulsive to itself as matter, so forms black holes a little easier. They would be so small that the likelihood of matter interacting with it would be small, and would therefore be unlikely to annihilate. It isn't like we have created enough antimatter to even study it well.

        IANAP, so this is more wild guess than scientific conjecture, but that one as always bothered me as well, why is the unive

      • There are probably dozens of types of galaxies, and Spiral is only one of them.
        The hint that we have a "dark matter problem" is because the galaxies rotate too fast. Hence: the matter is inside of the galaxies and not spread out as a halo around them - well, probably both.

        • by thomst ( 1640045 )

          angel'o'sphere lectured:

          There are probably dozens of types of galaxies, and Spiral is only one of them.

          I'm well aware of that, of course. However, as I mentioned in passing, most of the other types are clearly products of galactic mergers or near-misses warping what would otherwise be spiral galaxies out of shape. Globular ones are a special case that may be galaxies that are just forming, and that haven't shrunk far enough yet to start spinning out into spirals, or they may be galaxies that are too poor in "dark matter" to be able to rotate without flying apart. Or ... ?

          The hint that we have a "dark matter problem" is because the galaxies rotate too fast. Hence: the matter is inside of the galaxies and not spread out as a halo around them - well, probably both.

          That's one hi

          • However, as I mentioned in passing, most of the other types are clearly products of galactic mergers or near-misses warping what would otherwise be spiral galaxies out of shape.
            Yes you said that. And it is simply wrong.

            There are dozens of galaxy types that emerge by itself. And those who emerged by mergers: usually have no type. They are just a bunch of stars not really knowing where to go and what shape to form.

            Sorry, read a book a bout it.

            But thank you for your lecture.

            there are areas of gravity concentra

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      FWIW, I postulate that the primordial black holes were formed at an even earlier period, and that they typically mass less than a typical asteroid.

      OTOH, to make this work I've got to also postulate that there is a minimal size to a black hole, below which it is no longer able to capture virtual particles, so it stops emitting Hawking radiation. I know of no evidence against this, and not even any detailed theories...and *I* sure can't work out the math. But it makes sense in a hand-wavy kind of way. And

      • But virtual particles pop up pretty much everywhere? Why would an extremely light mass black hole not exhibit hawking Radiation? That seems like a very big claim based on what exactly? Gravity is gravity.

        • by HiThere ( 15173 )

          Because it's capture cross-section would be too small for any existing wave-form to enter. You can't eat a bite larger than your jaw spread.

          • Individually, no. But we're talking about a helluva lot of low mass black holes in almost every galactic halo, including our own, so that raises the odds that the kinds of low mass black holes they're talking about ought to have some sort of a lensing event, not to mention collisions, which would, one thinks, give off gamma ray bursts, and would suggest if they are that common that their mass equals the dark matter needed, we should be spotting gamma ray bursts.

            • by HiThere ( 15173 )

              The size range I'm thinking of would be too small to capture even a gamma wave. I'm not exactly thinking a mass of around a proton, but not too far from that. It would have needed to be created during the big bang, because any later time wouldn't be dense enough for fluctuations in mass to produce a black hole this small (though it could have started a bit larger and then evaporated as the environment became less dense).

              Yes. you would need a tremendous number of them, but their gravitational fields as ind

              • Do you actually understand why black holes evaporate. Regardless of size why would a very small black hole not grab one member of a virtual particle pair. You're making a claim with no justification that I can see

                • by HiThere ( 15173 )

                  IIUC, black holes evaporate because they repeatedly swallow half of a pair of virtual particle, each time losing the energy required to make the other half non-virtual. But this means they've got to have a capture cross-section large enough to capture the virtual particle. As they get smaller, the energy of the particles that they can swallow gets higher. This is described as an increase in the temperature, as the particles that get emitted get higher in energy state. But if this is true, then when they

  • Somehow I find that ironic. I hope they are able to prove it out from James Webb telescope too! Any conclusive data would pretty much pays off the telescope from a astronomy advancement perspective in one shot.
  • Already being tested (Score:4, Informative)

    by locater16 ( 2326718 ) on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:44AM (#62147889)
    This isn't anything new, multiple analysis of survey data have already been done looking for primordial black holes. Have so far constrained their size towards being pretty small. It doesn't mean they don't exist, but it's not looking promising. Now, moving on...
  • So.. Hawking Radiation is a black hole's nemesis.
    Gotta luv the inet - a calculator:

    https://www.vttoth.com/CMS/phy... [vttoth.com]

    Without actually checking what people theorize such a mass would be...
    10000 metric tonnes gives a life time of 775.196 minutes.

    We are some 13.8 billion years later now and all these primordials are still here? They must be well big!
    Consequently, either Hawking Radiation is not a thing or this "swarm" of primordials is not a thing lest they were big.
    The above 775.186min though does
    • by jd ( 1658 )

      Primordial black holes aren't collapsed stars and may be too small to accrue much matter. If I understand correctly, they're created by inflationary effects. If that's the case, they'd really be a distinct class of objects rather than conventional black holes and may have different Hawking radiation properties.

      They're 10^-19 solar masses, which is really, really small.

      • If I understand correctly, they're created by inflationary effects. If that's the case, they'd really be a distinct class of objects rather than conventional black holes and may have different Hawking radiation properties.

        No-Hair Theorum. No matter the size, a black hole is a black hole.
        Hawking Radiation describes what happens to a black hole all the way down to the planck length- so includes these, and much, much smaller (which they'd have to be in order to evaporate away)

        • by Wargames ( 91725 )

          Could there be, or,what if there were black holes the size of the known universe?

          • I would not be surprised if our universe is just a black hole inside of a bigger universe, and all we see is the inside of it.

      • Hawking Radiation isn't an effect of capturing matter, it's virtual particle-antiparticle pairs forming, one member of the pair being captured and the other escaping, and thus the black hole radiates, leading to its evaporation. According to Wikipedia, at least, micro black holes would in fact be extremely hot, and thus would evaporate quickly.

    • 1 solar mass is not 10,000 metric tones :D

      From the nice link you gave: Indeed, any black hole with a mass greater than about 0.75% of the Earth's mass is colder than the cosmic background, and thus its mass increases for now.

  • Black holes are definitely dark matter
  • It's nice to see that the idea is testable. Without this characteristic, it's just an idea.

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      Well, it's not really testable. Only a specialized version that assumes black holes have a certain minimal mass is testable. (And I think that postulate is probably incorrect.)

    • The idea of small mass (down to the presumed micro black holes formed shortly after the Big Bang) has been tested, since if there were sufficient numbers of low mass black holes in galactic halos to the sufficient quantity to explain the gravitational anomalies should lead to a numerous gravitational lensing events. Whatever dark matter is, it does not appear to alter the paths of photons in any significant way, which suggests that the individual particles of dark matter are themselves very low mass and do

      • There is no demonstrated concept of "dark matter" at all, we have not found any observational evidence to date that such a thing exists. Dark matter is simply a word we give to the gap between what the calculations tell us we should see, and what we actually see. A possibility we must consider is that the underlying calculations are incorrect, and that we've missed something fundamental.

        Any theory of why the discrepancy exists must be tested to be proven. Otherwise, it's merely a conjecture.

  • All of our theories about primordial black holes and formation of early stars/galaxies have been very rudely upended in the past couple years (not to mention many other astronomical models).

    We're seeing monster black holes, for instance, at a time when they shouldn't have existed, and stars and galaxies forming much faster/earlier than predicted.

    Also of note, white dwarfs behave differently than we assumed, able to burn for longer IIRC than ever thought possible. Since white dwarfs have been used as a scal

Someday somebody has got to decide whether the typewriter is the machine, or the person who operates it.

Working...