China's Locked Down City Thrown Into Chaos After Covid App Crash (bloomberg.com) 98
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: China's Covid-19 health code system that strictly governs people's movements crashed in Xi'an this week, worsening conditions in the locked-down city where the country's worst outbreak since Wuhan has been unfolding. The crash has complicated efforts to weed out cases through mass testing, created hurdles for people seeking care at hospitals and led to the suspension of a top official, the latest among a slew of bureaucrats to be punished as Beijing fumes over the situation.
Liu Jun, head of Xi'an's big-data bureau, was temporarily dismissed over performance failures, the municipal Communist Party Committee said in a statement. While the committee didn't explicitly lay out the reason behind its decision, it came after Xi'an's health code system -- which is under Liu's purview and tracks individuals' movements and vaccination status -- broke down on Tuesday. The system crash meant that locals were unable to access their Covid infection status after Xi'an embarked on a new widespread round of nucleic acid tests, according to a media report. The provincial government said in a statement later that the system was temporarily paralyzed due to overwhelming traffic, and being fixed. It had also experienced technical issues in December. A pregnant women in Xi'an reportedly lost her baby after being refused entry to a hospital because she "couldn't show she was infection-free via the health code app," reports Bloomberg.
"A video posted Tuesday showing what appeared to be a woman bleeding on the sidewalk outside a hospital in Xi'an's Gaoxin district was trending on Weibo. Similar complaints and criticisms were seen elsewhere on Chinese social media as patients failed to get timely treatment at hospitals already overwhelmed by the virus."
Liu Jun, head of Xi'an's big-data bureau, was temporarily dismissed over performance failures, the municipal Communist Party Committee said in a statement. While the committee didn't explicitly lay out the reason behind its decision, it came after Xi'an's health code system -- which is under Liu's purview and tracks individuals' movements and vaccination status -- broke down on Tuesday. The system crash meant that locals were unable to access their Covid infection status after Xi'an embarked on a new widespread round of nucleic acid tests, according to a media report. The provincial government said in a statement later that the system was temporarily paralyzed due to overwhelming traffic, and being fixed. It had also experienced technical issues in December. A pregnant women in Xi'an reportedly lost her baby after being refused entry to a hospital because she "couldn't show she was infection-free via the health code app," reports Bloomberg.
"A video posted Tuesday showing what appeared to be a woman bleeding on the sidewalk outside a hospital in Xi'an's Gaoxin district was trending on Weibo. Similar complaints and criticisms were seen elsewhere on Chinese social media as patients failed to get timely treatment at hospitals already overwhelmed by the virus."
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The insanity is 1) over-reliance on mobile internet and availability of the central government database, and 2) inhumane treatment at the hospital entrance.
I expect such problems will not happen in the developed world, because:
1) when you get a vaccine or test, you get handed a certificate or QR code which you snap into your image gallery or keep in paper form. You don't need a working internet connection (let alone a functional government database) to display your vaccine or test status.
2) the inhumane tre
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You don't get a certificate in the UK, you get a small card with your name, the vaccine you got and the date written by hand on it. I don't know why they bother really, you can print your own at home and write on it yourself.
The only acceptable vaccine passport is the government supplied one, which used an app and requires internet access to be verified. It costs a couple of quid.
The inhumane treatment is less likely in the West, mostly because we have much longer standing rules on things like human rights
Re: Coming soon to the US! (Score:1)
Yeah, it's an outlier and not typical, for sure. Some arrogant and power-crazed guard probably.... Or there's more to the story than is reported.
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which used an app and requires internet access to be verified.
In the reported incident in China, the individual needs to connect to the database to show their status. If your device or connection fails for any reason, an uneducated entrance guard will say the problem is on your side. In UK, if the verifier app that needs the connection (which is still a bad design) stops responding, the hospital workers will notice immediately that the problem is on their side and I presume they would not refuse entrance based on their own problems with their app.
the only acceptable vaccine passport is the government supplied one,
This part is not shoc
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Hospitals in the UK don't seem to be checking vaccination status. I've never been checked and I was at one only last month.
The vaccine passports are only being used at venues like concerts and football matches. I don't know what they would do if the system was down. People report being turned away because the data on the system is wrong, but if it affected everyone at an event... Well I think legally they would have to cancel it.
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Still, it's pretty shocking that this happened in China.
To whom? We're talking about a government that regularly ritually abuses its own citizens, which exercises the death penalty more than any other nation on the planet, and which typically does not permit inspectors and when it does carefully leads them by the hand so they can't inspect anything meaningful in a timely fashion. Why should this be shocking?
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To people who have actually been to China and who know Chinese people.
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To people who have actually been to China and who know Chinese people.
Many people in the USA and UK alike are in deep denial about how their respective governments work, and those are relatively (though not very) transparent societies whose governments place at least some value on human life.
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If such situation happened to me, I would negotiate at the hospital entrance, saying I call a friend to knock me off right there, and they'll have to admit me.
There is a time limit on such "negotiations" - you may bleed out first. It is better not to empower bureaucrats in the first place.
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I suspect 2) is fake news. Would not be the first time. So at least the situation is probably described wrongly, at worst it is from a different time/place. Would not be the first time that happened and the situation reeks of propaganda.
Re:Coming soon to the US! (Score:5, Insightful)
The insanity is growing here, too.
Yeah... how dare people insist on everyone get vaccinated! /s
Seriously though, the only insanity here is the obstinate of the unvaccinated.
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This kind of lockdown and closing the borders has kept the death rate very low in China. People there have enjoyed more freedom from lockdowns than those in Europe too, because they act fast and stop is spreading.
I don't know if we could have done the same here in Europe. The EU might have been able to organize it, but getting all the member states to agree would have been difficult. Would have had to have been agreed long in advance I think.
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I don't know if we could have done the same here in Europe. The EU might have been able to organize it, but getting all the member states to agree would have been difficult. Would have had to have been agreed long in advance I think.
There are such plans for the case that they are needed. But COVID is not deadly enough to activate them. If, say, COVID had been 100x more deadly and spreading a lot faster, that would have been different. For example here, there is a plan for a complete hard lock-down and the military getting food to people.
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This kind of lockdown and closing the borders has kept the death rate very low in China.
You actually believe those numbers, do you??
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Seriously though, the only insanity here is the obstinate of the unvaccinated.
Going to the ER because you can't find a test [washingtonpost.com] isn't all that bright either.
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The insanity is growing here, too.
Pretty much. Will have better pictures and sound though!
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I suppose it's a legitimate point, but at least one of the moderators could have added an off topic... The old FP problem?
I think a more legitimate and unifying comparison would be of the failure of extremist responses. China is going too far on the zero tolerance of Covid-19 side, while America is going too far to the other extreme of tolerating people who deny there's any medical problem at all.
I used to be more willing to defend the pragmatism of China's leaders, but I'm apparently in the process of reev
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The profits of the Olympics are minimal, but the losses from a full-blown Covid-19 epidemic will be enormous, even disastrous. (Unless the real plan is to blame the foreigners while boosting Chinese "patriotism"?)
The Olympics are not about profits. It's about a worldwide stage to show off one's country and to bask in the glow of worldwide attention. That was also the case in 1936.
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I think you're blurring things, though what you said is key to most of the justification Xi is probably using now if anyone dares give him more bad news about the potential risks and costs. My position is that the Chinese government is mostly rational, and they are going to try to weigh and balance the benefits and the risks.
Maybe it would be best to put it in terms of where I think Xi's priorities are?
#1: Political stability within China. But that's where a major disaster related to the Olympics would thre
What is their vaccination status? (Score:2)
Are the people of Xi'an mostly vaccinated, or not?
Re:What is their vaccination status? (Score:4, Funny)
I'll just put you down as "I don't know shit but commented anyway"
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China's vaccine has proven not that effective against Omicron. Thus, the authorities are a little on edge.
Re: What is their vaccination status? (Score:1)
This is Delta. No confirmed community spread of Omicron in China though there has been 2 cases on the mainland.
Is this really what people want? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Congratulations on your straw man. I'm going to call you out right now. You claim you've heard a lot of people praising communism recently? Where? When? Links would be nice, too.
By the way, a centrally planned economy isn't automatically a communist economy. Just one example: Finland's economy enjoys a significant amount of central planning. By every metric, Finland is kicking America's ass as a decent place to live. Less crime, better education, greater life expectancy, lower infant mortality...th
Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:1)
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I think you missed the point entirely. Communism works - until it doesn't.
As long as there is enough wealth and a little luck about the folks in charge being of good character its all fine. Then the gas well drys up or there is a disease nobody can figure out how to control or .... and suddenly part of the system breaks. The people in charge do what people in charge ALWAYS do they, get defensive and start seeking first to protect their position of privilege and run things for the betterment of the communit
Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:1)
> Communism works - until it doesn't.
ROFL.
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Every form of government works - until it doesn't.
The rest of your comment remains valid.
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You could say exactly the same thing about capitalism...it works until it doesn't. Look at the US, where you don't have to dig around at all to find people dying outside hospitals because they couldn't prove they had health care. You also don't have to dig around to find homeless, hungry American children and infant mortality rates worse than some Third World countries.
Re:Is this really what people want? (Score:4, Insightful)
Finland also has very strict immigration laws that they enforce and a tiny homogenous population.
Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:2)
Oh Christ, take you're stupid little right wing brigade back to Reddit please.
Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:1)
Shame about the weather
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It's likely that the GP is confusing communism with socialism. Finland, to pick up your example, is a socialist democracy. The Social Democratic Party currently holds the largest number of seats (and the largest share of the vote, since they have proportional representation). Around 70% of the working population is unionized, and the rest are covered by the "universal validity" law which basically means that the rate negotiated by a union supported by at least 50% of the workforce in that sector becomes the
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Unless 8 euros equals $18 then no they don't.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Sala... [glassdoor.com]
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I actually under reported it. Snopes says $20/hour. Plus additional unsociable hours payments, and a pension, regular breaks and I believe they get free food too.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-ch... [snopes.com]
"The majority of McDonaldâ(TM)s workers in Denmark are part-time, and currently receive a base pay of about $20 an hour. Employees earn additional wages for working off-hour shifts (weekends or nights), overtime, and holidays. Employees over the age of 20 also receive a pension plan."
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That's odd. Here's an article from a month ago about McDonalds not being able to fill jobs in Finland, mostly because young people have "unrealistic expectations about pay". So either the pay isn't as great as you suggest or $20/hr isn't enough to live on due to that whole socialism thing.
https://yle.fi/news/3-12195746 [yle.fi]
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As the article notes, they tend to leave to move on to other opportunities, i.e. even more money or better conditions. That creates a feedback loop where chronic under-staffing makes the conditions worse, so people leave.
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Thanks for your observations. They're very much appreciated.
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I'm glad you appreciate it, and don't get triggered like some people...
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Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:3)
the US has lost a lot of credibility. In that context, these discussions about how great capitalism is and how communism will inevitably lead to disaster are not helping. On the contrary. It is sounding like brainless propaganda.
WWII is so far in the rear view mirrors that we truly do not give a shit if you want to royally fuck YOUR economy, so please do not take our word for it, nationalize all private industry in your own country. Knock yourself out, stop using US as an excuse like you'd totally go communist but we're stopping you, no, we truly do not care about your economy right now. In fact I DARE you to nationalize the shit out of everything, call it an experiment, you'll totally "own the Americans" by trying it. Do it, pu
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I knew this was going to get modded down. People who hate socialism are upset by the mere existence of places like Finland, where it works really well. They always try to claim it's not socialism, it's some weird form of capitalism where the government gets involved in collective bargaining.
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I hate socialism.
I also don't give a shit out Finland does things (and I've been there by the way).
My objection is when people say that's how I should have to live.
To THOSE people, I say "fuck you".
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Isn't that the nature of democracy though? If you happen to disagree with the majority, they end up forcing you to live the way they want.
Even if you are happy with the way your country is now, there is somebody else living there who says "fuck you" when the things you voted for affect them.
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So you read one article in one publication, and that's the "heard a lot" you were talking about? Thanks. I needed a good chuckle.
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You can get by just fine speaking English in Finland.
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I actually visited the place. You could say exactly the same about the Netherlands. English everywhere, an economic system that's unabashedly socialist and a standard of living that makes the US look like a Third World country in comparison. Same with Germany, for that matter.
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Re:Is this really what people want? (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, is there some reason why you think tracking vaccination status isn't the job of the government in Western nations? I live in Quebec and I have an app on my phone that shows a QR code that is encoded with my vaccination status. It's an app from the provincial government, because in Canada, the provinces are responsible for healthcare delivery (the federal government sets some important broad standards, and is responsible for funding). Capitalism has no real place in this situation; why would a market economy help in this case? What would competition bring other than a dozen competing apps that have no incentive to interoperate and TWO dozen apps trying to scam you.
For situations like this, a central authority is definitely better. This story merely illustrates a specific problem in a specific place. We can look at the USA and see a lot of different specific problems as well, not least of which is that a huge portion of the population refuses to follow any reasonable rules and endanger everyone because of it. That's not a failing of the market economy per se, and it would be wrong to generalize about market economies in general just because the people in Florida can't get their shit together.
central authority needs the power to tell apple $0 (Score:1)
central authority needs the power to tell apple $0 dev fee per year and limited app store rules for government apps.
and things like NO Apple can't make there own vaccination status app and block others due to there rules.
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I read that Apple may be working on a standard for COVID passports. Google and Apple developed the standard for anonymous contact tracing via Bluetooth, but I don't know if they are working together on vaccination passports.
I'd prefer the government handled it, although there is a need for an international standard.
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I'd prefer the government handled it,
Of course you do
Obviously you don't see yourself as a disgusting little minion but that's simply your lack of self awareness and respect; it's all too transparent to the rest of us.
I'd prefer that people take it upon themselves to get vaccinated if they can, take other suitable precautions if they can't, wear masks properly in public, stay home if they're sick, and generally be responsible members of a society instead of selfish assholes who want MUH FREEDUMB to do as they please and damn everyone else. But they won't. So we need government to make them do it.
Actually what we NEED is fucking Ebola or something, that kills quickly and grotesquely, to teach entitled shits what a real
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This is the kind of progressive thinking I come to
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This is the kind of progressive thinking I come to /. to receive. Nothing says your ideas are worthwhile like requiring grotesque displays of force or horror to prove their validity. Kudos to you good sir. Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to sign up for your newsletter.
What can I say, preposterous hyperbole backed up by grotesque force is the order of the day...
Seriously though, while COVID has killed a lot of people, many of whom probably should not have died, it just lacks the brutality of past plagues which were in people's faces and made them realize that preventive measures are good. Some of this is perhaps because COVID isn't as bad as those plagues, and some because we have better abilities to keep people alive long enough to fight off the virus. Part of it is th
Broken Covid app in Queensland Australia (Score:2)
When you went anywhere, you scan a QR code. That way, if someone had Covid, they could contact everyone that went to the same places.
(Until very recently Queensland had zero Covid. So contact tracing was important and accurate.)
It was supposed to integrate vaccination status. Never worked for me. I have a image of a paper cert on my phone.
(But now we have opened up nobody cares.)
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Actually what we NEED is fucking Ebola or something, that kills quickly and grotesquely, to teach entitled shits what a real plague looks like and encourage them to adopt public health practices. Too many people are ignorant of the horrors of the past that have been largely eliminated due to vaccination and other public health campaigns, mostly coordinated by government. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
This is the kind of progressive thinking I come to /. to receive. Nothing says your ideas are worthwhile like requiring grotesque displays of force or horror to prove their validity. Kudos to you good sir. Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to sign up for your newsletter.
It's a pretty horrible statement to use if one is attempting to make a case for a government guided by empathy and empowered to promote the welfare of society.
By the same logic, they could say we need some global mold or pest outbreak that will quickly devour all wheat and rice crops on the planet, because too many people are ignorant of the horrors of starvation/"food insecurity" which have been largely eliminated due to regulation and other public welfare campaigns coordinated by government. Once a few hu
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I read that Apple may be working on a standard for COVID passports.
Nice of Google and Apple to come on board one year after the EU already developed a standard COVID passport that is used by 27 countries in the EU and recognised by 33 countries outside of the EU already, not to mention a full year after most people thought the pandemic would be done and dusted.
It is a good thing governments did handle it. Last week I was in a completely different country to my home country got a booster shot to enable me to travel to a 3rd country, and it all worked seamlessly. My home cou
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You're leaving out a very important part here.
First, you need no app on your phone. You do not need to install any government written app on your phone.
It's a QR code, which can be displayed via the app, or you can download a PDF of it. You can carry around a paper copy of it. That's what I do.
The QR code is electronically signed by the Government of Quebec. If you want to verify it, for example if you're a restaurant, you can download a government app. However, you don't need a live internet connectio
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What I don't understand about the whole vaccine situation is why conscription is not brought up more often as it's directly analogous. When a country is at war and conscripts soldiers, you don't get a choice about whether you want to join or not. And avoiding the draft is a crime. Conscription has been around for millennia and is a recognized power of government (including in the USA).
A pandemic is directly analogous- a national security threat, where anyone who doesn't participate in the solution (vaccinat
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in the usa the ER must take all but if gop kills t (Score:2)
in the usa the ER must take all but if gop kills that then the jail will.
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in the usa the ER must take all but if gop kills that then the jail will.
Perhaps it should be killed. At least since the ACA, it's not too hard for anyone to get insurance, whether it be "free" Medicaid or a (over)paid plan. If there wasn't the option of refusing insurance, then turning up at the ER and getting billed some huge sum with the taxpayers on the hook for it and being in debt forever, people might be inclined to look into insurance. Or move to a single payer type system, which on average seems to deliver lower costs and same or better outcomes.
You could even keep t
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This has nothing to do with communism, especially since China is not communist.
It doesn't matter what kind of government you say you have, if it doesn't have some kind of feedback mechanism then it's not going to work for you. Just like how the USA makes a lot of noise about democracy, is nominally a republic, but actually functions as an oligarchy.
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I hear a lot of people praising communism recently.
Where?
Apples to Dictator Oranges (Score:1)
> Talk to anyone who grew up in Eastern Europe or even Cuba about how well centrally planned economies work.
The comparison is not a good one because those countries have an authoritarian political system. Under a democracy there is more pressure to run the gov't well because you are more likely to get booted for not. I'm claiming democratic socialism always works well, only that one has to take the political system into account when comparing; it's not just the economic system that matters; it's the feed
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Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:3)
China isn't communist. I'd say it's one of the most capitalist places I've been. It is, however, authoritarian.
Re: Is this really what people want? (Score:2)
I hear a lot of people praising communism recently.
Trump didn't win.
Video Gone (Score:2)
"What lady? Oh she is on vacation. Everyone is on vacation" - Chinese media
Wifi? (Score:2)
huh? (Score:2)
A pregnant women in Xi'an reportedly lost her baby after being refused entry to a hospital
Ask how much people have lost during this pandemic, not just in human costs but in financial costs. This sensationalism is unnecessary.
Xi is so pissed he's going to change (Score:1)
the name of the city to "NotXi'an" (or BuXi'an, per Mandarin).
Preview of relying too much on tech. (Score:2)
Hospitals still need to be able to function at least for managing an emergency room. Food and supply stores still need to be able to move products. Gas stations need to be able to work. We are at the point where if that internet thing goes down everything you want to try to do to for basic life is fucked.
Pretty much everyone . . . (Score:1)
... has already had COVID
We're fucking over everyone's lives for no reason.
Re: Pretty much everyone . . . (Score:2)
That is the truth actually, even though I am not sure what would be an optimum position to take given that fact, without having the vaxxer/anti-vaxxer zombies start frothing.
Random testing is coming up with 80% positives in Mumbai.
Very rare hospitalizations but still hospitals are getting overloaded probably due to the huge pop so better safe than sorry is the guiding principle I guess. But no dramatic impositions or solutions are needed simply because none of them actually work at this stage. Covid has pr