Germany Considers a Full Covid Lockdown and Mandatory Vaccines (cnbc.com) 388
Germany is set to decide on tougher Covid-19 restrictions and could even opt for a full lockdown amid record daily infections and mounting pressure on hospitals. From a report: Olaf Scholz, Germany's chancellor-designate, said Wednesday that the Covid situation was serious and that the country would massively push its vaccination campaign, noting that "vaccination is the way out of this pandemic." Scholz said Germany "should make vaccination compulsory for certain groups," without stating which groups, while new Finance Minister Christian Lindner stated that Germans should avoid all unnecessary contact this winter "to preserve all of our health in this pandemic."
That Scholz chose to address the Covid crisis as he and his new government colleagues announced a draft coalition deal on Wednesday shows where the officials' immediate priorities lie. The country's outgoing health minister, Jens Spahn, issued a dire warning to Germans this week, saying that by the end of winter "pretty much everyone in Germany will be vaccinated, recovered or dead." Outgoing Chancellor Angela Merkel has called on the heads of Germany's 16 federal states (which have largely been free to determine their own Covid measures) to decide upon stricter rules by Wednesday. On Tuesday, Spahn reiterated that request, adding that more public spaces should be restricted to the vaccinated, the recently recovered, or those that have had a negative test -- otherwise known as the "3G rule." From Wednesday, 3G rules apply to any Germans going into the workplace or accessing public transport.
That Scholz chose to address the Covid crisis as he and his new government colleagues announced a draft coalition deal on Wednesday shows where the officials' immediate priorities lie. The country's outgoing health minister, Jens Spahn, issued a dire warning to Germans this week, saying that by the end of winter "pretty much everyone in Germany will be vaccinated, recovered or dead." Outgoing Chancellor Angela Merkel has called on the heads of Germany's 16 federal states (which have largely been free to determine their own Covid measures) to decide upon stricter rules by Wednesday. On Tuesday, Spahn reiterated that request, adding that more public spaces should be restricted to the vaccinated, the recently recovered, or those that have had a negative test -- otherwise known as the "3G rule." From Wednesday, 3G rules apply to any Germans going into the workplace or accessing public transport.
Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Informative)
Gotta love how headlines can make something seem way more controversial than it actually is. The key point is that vaccination would only be mandatory "for certain groups"
I don't see how that's different from many other countries with vaccination requirements. As a Canadian, there are all kinds of vaccination requirements. Be it people working in hospital, federal employees, or people who want to go out to restaurants. Maybe that last one just Ontario, I don't know about other provinces.
The point being that the headline suggests that mandtory vaccines would be for all, when really it seems that the vaccines would only be mandatory for specific groups.
Everyone should get the vaccine, I'm a big supporter of it, but I'm just pointing out how infuriating the headline is.
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Germany, like many countries (including Canada) has a cohort of diehard antivaxxers, which are a source of both pressure on the medical system and a petri dish in which the virus can evolve. Christ, the last Canadian election had antivax protesters throwing gravel at the Prime Minister, despite the fact that, other than on aircraft, at borders and on Federal properties, the Federal government has little responsibility or power over vaccine mandates. But antivaxxers everywhere have demonstrated a profound ca
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It's a very difficult situation. On the one hand there are people who are, frankly, idiots who read some BS on Facebook and are now endangering everyone and costing us a fortune. Then there are people with genuine medical issues, some of them not yet recognized by medical science, and a layer of doctors who have become highly sceptical due to all the Facebook idiots so it's hard to get an exemption.
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Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4)
It should be hard to get an exemption for medical reasons.
Agreed. And "I fear the vaccine" is not a medical reason.
Re: Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Insightful)
Covid-19 has about a 3% chance of killing most people and those who don't end up dead have a 30% chance of developing a neurological disorder.
No, it's not that simple. The Case Fatality Ratio seems to sit between 2% and 5% in most developed countries, and is heavily skewed towards the elderly, fat, and/or diabetic. The actual Fatality ratio is much lower because of asymptomatic and mild cases which never get tested. The chances of "long covid" or neurological damage is also much lower than you claim, and in many cases the damage is caused by lack of medical care and/or overmedication and not the illness itself.
I am 100% pro-vaccine but am tired of seeing people spew ignorance as if it was fact. You're not helping by exaggerating, if anything you're just giving more ammo to the anti-vax crowd.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Insightful)
They do work. Take a look at ICUs and realize that the majority of patients there are unvaccinated idiots while being the minority in the population.
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While Illinois is heavily pushing booster shots because recently the number of covid-related deaths for VACCINATED people slightly exceeded that of "unvaccinated idiots".
As the percentage of vaccinated people keeps rising, the number of breakthrough cases is catching up to unvaccinated cases.
The vaccines aren't cures, and anyone pushing them AS cures is as deluded as those railing against them. They're a tool. The call for the vaccinated to continue practicing masking and social distancing is acknowledging
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So lemme guess, there are way more people in the state that are vaccinated than unvaccinated, and the number of people dying is about on par between vaccinated and unvaccinated people?
Do I have to help you with the math or can you do it yourself?
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Interesting)
So lemme guess, there are way more people in the state that are vaccinated than unvaccinated, and the number of people dying is about on par between vaccinated and unvaccinated people?
Do I have to help you with the math or can you do it yourself?
I try to explain this to anti-vaxxers, but it does not help, their brains cannot handle statistics. Maybe it is genetic. They will say things like "half the cases are in vaccinated people, proof vaccines do nothing!". Except that means half the cases are in the 15% who are unvaccinated, and half the cases are in the 85% who are. That is like a 6x difference in risk, but they just don't get it.
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We just had such a case here. Two people died from that crap by fiat of overdosing, the other two are on respirators and complaining that they didn't get enough of it.
Personally, I do agree with them.
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There is zero evidence for Ivermectin at this time. If you would like to present new evidence to the necessary scientific bodies, I'm sure they'd be happy to take the new information on board. But you can't because you have none. All you have are anecdotes and even Dogbert understands anecdotal evidence is worthless.
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Vaccines are highly effective at reducing risk, but as long as the risk is extremely high, they can't significantly reduce the number getting Covid. My statistics isn't the best but even I understand the basics of conditional probability. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.go... [nih.gov] Ivermectin is damn-near useless.
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some of them not yet recognized by medical science
Yeah, sure. Get vaccinated.
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I am fully vaccinated. I deeply regret getting the AstraZenica vaccine because of the effect it had on me. Pfizer was fine.
Turns out a lot of other people with the same condition (CFS) have had similar reactions. If it were properly understood I would have been given Pfizer instead of AZ.
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You understand that just because you had a reaction doesn't mean there is any link to the vaccine, right?
Someone also died, hit by a bus, after getting the shot.
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Yes, but in my case there is a link.
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Assuming you're right, which given your reputation here is a leap, that is still not an excuse to not get vaccinated, and you really shouldn't pretend that it is, because your argument will be abused by all the hypochondriacs, homeopathetics and the generally deluded. The full virus will do all the damage and so much more. Some vaccines may be better than others, but they are all much much better than actually getting Covid. The list of adults who genuinely should not be vaccinated is tiny, and every single
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There is one, but not acknowledged by medical professionals?
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Then there are people with genuine medical issues, some of them not yet recognized by medical science
But fortunately, they are by AmiMoJo from Slashdot, so we are safe.
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Ok, certain genuine medical issues (allergies to some of the proteins used in the manufacture and/or suspension, for example, or hyperactive immune systems) are a serious problem. And those can usually be identified beforehand, if a person is concerned. There are plenty of specialists who can determine an allergic reaction and there are tests for some hyperactive immune disorders. It's possible there are others, but that's why standard operating procedure for vaccines in the past has always been to wait 15
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In the vaccination clinic I went to in England, they did do exactly that. I am told that vaccination clinics in Scotland and Isle of Man also do this.
I'm only aware of 1 report out of about 100,000,000 vaccinations in the UK of anyone actually needing emergency treatment.
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I have not seen any place that doesn't urge people to sit and wait for at least 15 minutes after the injection, with provided supervision, in case of rare allergic reactions. They actually recommend half an hour. Every campaign makes it known beforehand that the wait time afterward is highly recommended, to the point that they ask you for a waiver if you want to leave immediately. They explain without being asked that the attending medical staff is able and prepared to handle even severe reactions in the un
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We had data way before covid about vaccines and what they do when they do not inhibit transmissions. Marek's disease is a perfect example of what could potentially happen.
The only way vaccination campaigns would have worked is if the ENTIRE WORLD deployed them at the same time, and that the deployed vaccines would be efficient against all geographical variants.
We're gonna be chasing this full immunity pipe dream for a long time because, sadly, the world is too connected and too interdependent.
Re: Gotta love headlines (Score:2)
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There's no evidence we acted too soon. There is no evidence the vaccines are responsible for new variants. Have you looked at the list of variants? 30+ major new variants pre-vaccine. Can you tell me how many new variants have occurred since? "Comparatively few" is an acceptable answer.
There is ample evidence that those under 45 are at significant risk of long-term damage from Covid. We are now beginning to understand what the virus does and it leaves a huge trail of destruction behind it. The actual infect
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Informative)
You do know that no vaccine works with a 100% reliability, yes? But that's not even necessary. Just like antibiotics don't kill 100% of the bacteria, you only need to lower the spread threshold to a point where the reinfection rate drops enough. That would actually be enough to simply stop the spreading, and thus the mutating.
Funny enough, the vaccine actually works better against mutated forms than the antibodies you have from a real infection due to what parts of the virus they identify. Which in turn makes me wonder which of the two actually causes the mutation, since a mutation would only survive with a higher chance in the wild than the original if that offers it a better chance of spreading and survival.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Insightful)
These epidemiologists behind the vaccines go to school for 10 years then spend decades of research and what must have been an insane amount of time during this pandemic trying to get a vaccine to be over 70%-80% effective and some moron who doesn't understand a damn thing won't take the vaccine because it "doesn't work 100% of the time".
Fuck these people and social media for basically giving them a megaphone to spread their stupidity.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Insightful)
The only concern regarding vaccines is for the uber-new variant that has 20+ mutations in the spike protein. There's currently no data on whether the vaccine will work for it. However, had most people not been squeamish, Covid would never have had the opportunity to mutate to that extent. That's a lot of mutations and they didn't all happen at once.
With the efficacies quoted, between 78-92%, if 90-95% of the population is vaccinated then R cannot exceed 1 and the disease will die a natural death. Even if you subtract those with allergies, given the sheer number of different vaccines available, it should easily be possible to achieve that sort of target range.
If the new variant isn't caught by the current vaccines, then it should be easy enough to adapt the vaccines to be effective against not only the new variant but also against any other variant that may have branched off one of the prior stages. Or, instead of aiming at the spike, aim at part of the virus that's extremely stable, since the spike doesn't seem to be. This new variant is reasonably contained for now, we've got the time to do any necessary research. If there's sufficient funding.
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New variants come from unvaccinated people, you ding-dong. They mutate inside infected people. Virologists have watched the virus outcompete itself as it mutates into a different variant inside a patient. If it was the vaccines that were causing the problem, we wouldn't have seen any variants before, now would we? But we had variants before the vaccines were out.
Not to mention if you were right, we never would've wiped out polio. Measles would still be a going concern. But they're not, because vaccines work
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I think you'll find the delta variant pre-dates the vaccines. Inventing your own history doesn't impress.
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Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Funny)
As long as religious nuttery is enough of an excuse to not get vaccinated, there is no mandatory vaccination. Because if my invisible pink unicorn says that vaccination is bad for me, I get exempt.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Insightful)
100% this.
And worse, FAR worse is that republicans have jumped on vaccine resistance as a cornerstone of their platform. Right now it's just COVID vaccines they're fighting against, but it's going to be mere moments before people start applying the same anti-vaccine-mandate laws and regulations and exemptions to other vaccines. You know, like the MMR or diptheria or polio or tetanus.
Vaccines which save tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of children a year. In the last hundred years childhood mortality dropped by several orders of magnitude, and a LOT of that was because of mandatory childhood vaccines.
I am deathly afraid for what happens if this nuttery gets applied to other vaccines. It's bad enough that we're mired in COVID because 40% of the population are a bunch of stupid fuckwads. At least they're not causing the deaths of tens of thousands of children - it's mostly their parents and grandparents they're killing.
But if this extends to all of the childhood vaccines? COVID will look like a nothingburger in comparison.
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Also, "full lockdown" is never really defined, and can mean many different things from one country to the other.
Where I live, the hardest lockdown meant schools, day care, and most businesses were shut down.
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Neighbouring Austria is going to make vaccines mandatory for all, and Germany are considering do the same.
Re: Gotta love headlines (Score:2)
Wait... so is the news really at 11...
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Wait... so is the news really at 11...
They found that they get more clicks when they turn it up to 11.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Insightful)
The more controversial thing is mask wearing and WFH.
Masks are free in many shops, but some people just don't like them. They want to prioritize their comfort over other people's health, and are now causing another wave that will keep us restricted for longer.
WFH is being resisted by incompetent bosses and people with an interest in having people in offices (real-estate, convenience food outlet owners, car manufacturers etc). For some people it's a problem due to not having space to work at home.
If we could get those things sorted out the need for vaccination would decrease, and people who don't want it would get sick at a more manageable rate. It also avoids the need to deal with a difficult dilemma, mandatory medical procedures.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want to hear any more excuses from you or anyone. GET VACCINATED. The need for vaccination is as high as 90%, possibly a little lower if at-risk groups all get booster shots. The estimates have changed because the Delta variant is much more infectious. There is no room for anyone opting out. The infection will get you, and it's much much worse than anything the vaccine can do to you. Every potential minuscule side effect the vaccine can have is also caused in much greater numbers and much more severely by the disease. If you can't get the disease for "medical reasons", then you absolutely certainly cannot afford to risk getting the disease, so that means a strict lockdown for you, until Covid is eradicated. Good bye.
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I am full vaccinated. That's how I know there are unacknowledged medical problems with the AstraZenica vaccine.
As it happens I have now had follow-up contact from the government body that collects data about vaccine reactions. It doesn't seem to have made it into official guidance yet.
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I'm a different person than AmiMoJo.
I had an unusual side effect after Spikevax vaccine which was not mentioned in the vaccine notes at all. I had bloody snot for 2 mornings after 1. dose and for 1 morning after 2. dose. It is not a big deal if I had not any other internal bleeding. If I had some it was not big enough to have noticeable consequences and to make me visit a physician. I reported the side-effects to the relevant institution. They did not contact me back. I guess that means it is OK.
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I don't live in the US but the UK government agency that looks into vaccine issues has been in contact.
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Interesting)
90% pre-Delta, but with Delta it'll be nearer 95% before R is kept permanently below 1. Now, there is a very new variant (mostly because the virus is being spammed through the population) that has enough mutations to the spike protein that it's unclear if current vaccinations are sufficient. There, we will ALL need booster shots that improve the body's ability to detect and destroy the new variant. Again, we'll need it in the 90-95% region. It's not impossible or even impractical, but it does require people to be less squeamish.
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That's just not going to happen though. And we really need to stop pretending that if we ask the anti-vaxers just one-more-time, "Would you kindly please stop being a bunch of dangerous self-destructive idiots?" that... this time, for real... they'll listen and Start being responsible. That lot have never been reasonable or rational. And it's well past time for an endgame where those of us who've done the responsible thing and have had our shots go back to our normal lives; and leave the unvaccinated beh
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Part of the problem that we have is that regulations keep oscillating on the basis that if you're doing one thing, that's enough. But being on top of this pandemic is about doing many things at the same time.
Get vaccinated AND wear a mask indoors AND improve ventilation in enclosed spaces AND don't go into enclosed spaces unless you need to
Vaccination isn't a silver bullet because not everyone can be vaccinated, or it doesn't take, or the very simple fact that people over 70 have a higher risk of serious di
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people who don't want it would get sick at a more manageable rate.
This is really the most important consideration, and always has been. We are about 85% vaccinated here (over 12 years, but vaccines for kids are rolling out now too), but that still leaves enough unvaccinated people to overwhelm our health care system (again) if too many of them get sick all at once. I don't care if all the unvaccinated get COVID, but we need to find ways to spread it out, perhaps over a year or so. During the last wave even with increasing vaccinations we had to airlift ICU patients to
Re:Gotta love headlines (Score:5, Interesting)
You've already come up with the easy solution for the problem. And, by another name, doctors and hospitals already do it routinely: triage. Don't overwork the health workers. Don't load hospitals beyond capacity. Just make unvaccinated COVID cases the absolute lowest-priority. Hospital is at capacity and a cancer patient needs chemo, or an old person needs a knee replacement, or someone comes into the ER with a stubbed toe? Well then, mister "I ain't lettin' Bill Gates put a 5G tracking chip that makes my kids autistic in me!" gets unplugged, rolled out, and kicked to the curb.
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I guess there are two points to address here. The first is about the effectiveness of mask usage. Fortunately, this is pretty easy to establish, since there has been so much research on masks. We have mask filtration studies comparing different types of masks (almost all types of masks convey some amount of protection, with cloth masks being the worst, but still better than nothing), disinfection and reuse studies (basically, don't try to reu
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Well, that's not actually true, but don't let nonsense get in the way of a good story. Masks are very effective at stopping those with the virus from spreading it, but as you demonstrate, those most likely to be infected are the least likely to be wearing a mask. No, Covid could go away. All you need is a vaccination rate of 95%. And that's easy to achieve, just make vaccines and masks mandatory until infection rates decline to the point where the vaccines alone are sufficient. Even the new variant that's w
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No, there is absolutely no reason why everyone should get Covid, any more than there was any reason why everyone in the Middle Ages should have got the Black Death or Smallpox. For all their primitive understanding, they were still more competent at dealing with epidemics than the likes of some on Slashdot.
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Re: Gotta love headlines (Score:4, Funny)
It's all a ninja conspiracy to allow em to walk among the regular people unnoticed.
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No one knows. As lockdown is not well defined.
If you are not vaccinated and come from outside of the EU: you can not even enter.
A lot of talk after not walking the walk (Score:2)
As a German, I can attest that pretty much since about April/May 2020, the regularotry bodies and politicians have acted completely random and bogus and in pretty much the worst way, almost contrary against everything we already knew at that point, with all major decisions being too late.
Like a deer caught in the headlight, you can perfectly model the actions by "indecisiveness until it is too late", combined with a whole bunch of promises and strategical mistakes which were obviously bad long-term and not
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[Citation needed]
I'm not going to pretend that the Federal or state governments did a good job managing the situation, because in my opinion it was rather chaotic with inconsistently applied rules.
But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call you out on the claims that ought to be substantiated with some evidence, just because you sandwich them in between those part
Re: A lot of talk after not walking the walk (Score:2)
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Percentages of fully vaccinated range from ~77% to 60%, with a notable split between former West and East Germany. The currently lowest rates are in Thuringia 63.8% and Saxony 60.2%. This also correlates with the highest occupation rate of ICUs as well as mortality rate.
Note that I write "correlate", because the metrics to draw more refined conclusions from just aren't there.
All I can say from my perspective and without looking too closely at the individu
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The latest push for vaccination is a pretty lame attempt for victim blaming, because most of the non-vaccinated folks are people who either suffered more than most other people under the measurements of the lockdown,
That is nonsense.
or were just "forgotten" in the information campaigns, as they lack higher education and almost no attempt was made to provide easily accessible information about different vaccines and other safety measures, especially not in non-German language.
That might be true.
Pretty much
The Delta variant changes the game ... (Score:5, Informative)
I think we need to get used to the idea that with Delta variant of the virus, the vaccines do not curb infection, nor transmission.
For example, here in Ontario [ontario.ca], during the last wave (~ September) the cases per 100,000 for vaccinated people were 1.6, as opposed to 11.1 for unvaccinated. Now, it is 2.6 vs. 10.3, and we are not yet at the peak of the current wave.
Part of that may be that antibodies for those vaccinated are waning (which is perfectly normal), and therefore they get infected until the T-cells activate B-cells to produce antibodies (a window of a few days).
In the meantime, the reduction in hospitalization and ICU occupancy [covid19-sciencetable.ca] is 93% and 97% lower, respectively, for vaccinated people vs. the unvaccinated, per Ontario's Science Table statistics.
Back to Germany (and Austria): their vaccination rate is ~ 66%. Not enough to blunt transmission. With Delta being more efficient in transmission, and probably producing a higher viral load, faster than the previous variants, vaccination rates need to be much higher than the postulated 75% when the D614G variant was the dominant one.
This virus is not going away any time soon, given the resistance to vaccination, and the slow roll out in developing countries. If we manage to curb it to the level of localized outbreaks for the next year or two, it would be the best we could hope for.
Re:The Delta variant changes the game ... (Score:5, Informative)
I think we need to get used to the idea that with Delta variant of the virus, the vaccines do not curb infection, nor transmission.
Wrong. The CDC says the opposite. https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru... [cdc.gov]
The vaccine does reduce risks of infection, and probably in big part because of that, it reduces transmission risks as well.
The only problem is that too many people are still not vaccinated. Under 12 vaccination will help a bit, but the real solution is to vaccinate something like 98%+ of adults.
For example, here in Ontario [ontario.ca], during the last wave (~ September) the cases per 100,000 for vaccinated people were 1.6, as opposed to 11.1 for unvaccinated. Now, it is 2.6 vs. 10.3, and we are not yet at the peak of the current wave.
So what, peak or not, the vaccine is effective.
Back to Germany (and Austria): their vaccination rate is ~ 66%. Not enough to blunt transmission.
Not enough, but still a lot better than 0%. Their situation would be much worse without the vaccine. Especially their death rate.
vaccination rates need to be much higher than the postulated 75% when the D614G variant was the dominant one.
This is well known since june/july 2021. I'm still surprised to hear people today being surprised that 75% is not enough, or say that because we have 75% vaccinated (in some countries) and the virus is still going on, it's because vaccines don't work. It's just failing at basic math. The Delta variant R0 has been estimated around 5-7. There is no way a 75% vaccination rate will be enough, even with a 100% vaccine effectiveness.
Re:The Delta variant changes the game ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The game isn’t to have it go away it is to limit hospitalizations and deaths. This is why the vaccine is important, even with reduced efficacy over time.
I live in a place with a reasonably high regional vaccination rate, but a low local vaccination rate so I got my booster after 6 months. That’s mainly me knowing I will be in a higher risk environment for a few weeks, and trying to be pragmatic. I don’t doubt that at some point though I will get the virus.
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Precious few vaccines have sterilizing immunity, where you do not actually get infected and you cannot transmit to someone else. But the vaccines do limit the amount of time you're infectious.
But this is ALSO happening in Ontario [thestar.com]: "As Ontario tries to keep a resurgence of COVID-19 cases under control, new data from Public Health Ontario shows only nine fully vaccinated people under 60 have ended up in the ICU."
The vaccines work extremely well at what they were intended to do: keep you from getting deadly il
Re:The Delta variant changes the game ... (Score:4, Insightful)
This virus is not going away any time soon, given the resistance to vaccination
So our choices are to give up and die in droves, or get the fucking vaccine into the population, pronto.
At this point in time, I consider anyone who doesn't get the vaccine for reasons of personal comfort, political bullshit or "ah, I don't know" simply an antisocial asshole. And the people who spread FUD should be prosecuted as criminals. That literally IS the equivalent of shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre - that speech is directly in the chain of causality for mass death.
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There is nothing fascist nor about public health measures to stop the spread of disease. We have been doing that for many decades. Vaccines are one part of it. Sanitation is another (no public defecation for example, because flies and cockroaches spread all sorts of nasty fecal-oral pathogens). And wearing masks is part of those measures too.
The scourge that is smallpox was successfully eradicated because of vaccinations. Polio has been almost eradicated. Wild type polio exists only in war torn Afghanistan
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Nope. Forcing a vaccine on anyone is assault.
It isn't when mandated by law. And there are other vaccinations that are mandated by law . Which ones exactly depends on your location, my home country for example has mandated vaccinations against measles and smallpox (until its eradication) , countries like France and Italy have a longer list of mandatory vaccinations, etc.
Forcing it on everyone is fascism
That's obvious bullshit. Fascism is a bit larger than mandatory vaccinations, don't you think?
Do you really want to fight WW2 again?
The brain has left the building, obviously. How you get from vaccination to world war is a
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Germany is at roughly 80%.
No idea about Austria.
Astonishing is: the remaining 20% cause more hospitalizations (and death) than the previous waves.
I have a sincere question. (Score:3, Insightful)
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no mod pts, but well said anyway
tyrants always have good reasons to do bad things
Re:I have a sincere question. (Score:5, Insightful)
Right. And while we're at it, why can't I smoke indoors anymore? What about my right to individual autonomy and putting into my body what I fucking please? And don't gimme that "second hand smoke" bullshit, because if you can cough at me with your Covid infested breath, why can't you handle my sweet smelling cigar smoke?
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Right. And while we're at it, why can't I smoke indoors anymore? What about my right to individual autonomy and putting into my body what I fucking please? And don't gimme that "second hand smoke" bullshit, because if you can cough at me with your Covid infested breath, why can't you handle my sweet smelling cigar smoke?
Well, as someone who grew up in Los Angeles during the smog-laden 80s, I agree with the notion of second-hand smoke being a little overblown.
However, smoking smells bad. I grew up with parents who smoked and it was impossible to escape the smell. What you consider "sweet smelling" is literally painful to my nose. Bear in mind, I don't care if you smoke like a chimney, I just don't want you doing it at the table next to mine when I'm dining.
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What I suggest is that we take pressure off the overburdened ICU units, because that's the reason for the lockdowns. How we do this, I don't care. Either we vaccinate everyone or we simply don't waste an ICU bed on unvaccinated people.
Re: I have a sincere question. (Score:2)
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That's not true.
Re:I have a sincere question. (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you respect individual autonomy and people's rights to put into their bodies anything they fucking please? Irrespective of how poorly founded their beliefs are or how much damage they do to themselves?
Yes. As long as these people remain isolated in their home until the virus is eradicated, this could be an acceptable solution.
They can get their food delivered, and work from home anyways.
But let's face it, nobody is going to accept that. We all know those who say they will are going to cheat at some point, and get out of their house.
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You didn't get the joke it seems. I don't expect anybody to never leave his home. That's why the vaccine is a must.
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Your argument would negate drug laws. What you’re really saying is my body my choice, correct? Your individual liberty stops when it begins to infringe on mine. If the argument really is my body my choice then you have to allow abortions and drugs like Marijuana.
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If the argument really is my body my choice then you have to allow abortions and drugs like Marijuana.
Not just MJ, but all drugs. Also prostitution and medically assisted dying.
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Do you respect individual autonomy and people's rights to put into their bodies anything they fucking please? Irrespective of how poorly founded their beliefs are or how much damage they do to themselves?
Since you've indicated that you don't really want an answer, I'll just say that I respect your rights to righteous indignation and the freedom to ask idiotic questions.
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Not when these people live in a society with others. Sure, if you chose to live alone in some dessert or the like, you habe that right. But when you may infect and ultimately kill others, no so much.
If you do not understand this then you are _dumb_.
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I do not respect individual autonomy in the case of a deadly pathogen, no.
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Ah, the famous "I'm in that comment and I don't like it" downmod.
Cure? (Score:2)
So they are going to to fight this thing by using 3G instead of 5G?
Government mandates (Score:2)
Is it legal for government to mandate people to wear anything, like clothes for example? Where does government get the right to tell me I should cover my glorious God-given junk? It is unconstitutional.
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Is it legal for government to mandate people to wear anything, like clothes for example? Where does government get the right to tell me I should cover my glorious God-given junk? It is unconstitutional.
Yea, that's the same. Remind me, please: what is the clothing equivalent to natural immunity?
Who is going to pay for those tests? (Score:2)
Is it the tax payer again? It's much cheaper to vaccine everyone than to offer free covid-19 tests to those who wants to go to the restaurant.
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Which of course means that it's the tax payer that'll foot the bill, so pretty much everyone. That's the answer most questions about 'who will pay for this' would default to.
While those who are not vaccinated will have to pay for their tests. From what I've heard from my relatives the workplace may pay for their tests and may subtract it from their employees pay or something
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Where I live people with symptoms are still encouraged to get tested (even if vaccinated), and it is free.
What I am opposed to, is to allow the unvaccinated to get access to the same privileges as those with a vaccine passport (airplanes, restaurants, whatever) by doing a state-funded test.
And from what I read, a test (and associated labor) can cost a lot more than 10 euros, but of course it depends on the type on test, with the better ones being more expensive. PCR can be easily 70+ euros. Don't forget tha
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Though from personal anecdotes I can say that this is a bad idea, as they produce false negatives too often to be reliable. Eventually you'll still need a PCR test to eliminate doubts created by the cheap tests.
But that's how they do it here when it comes to "3G" rules, where vaccinated people, recovered, and tested negative people are treated as the same.
Then there's also "2G" rules where vaccinated and recovered people are allowed.
And the only one
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Actually, there is only three.
You can't park here.
You can't do that.
Outside, coffee only by the pot.
Re: National defaults on legality? (Score:3)
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To make up for their lack of comedians.
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That would give us a vaccination rate near 100%, so I approve.
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Probably because all the old geezers with prior illnesses already croaked.
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Maybe with the difference that no other disease has a comparable death rate in first world countries, at least unless heart diseases and cancer are now contagious.
Also, the reason for the lockdown ain't that people get sick. Nobody really gives a fuck about that. If you just got sick and lie down at home, nobody would really be bothered too much. The real problem is that hospitals are reaching their limits in their ICUs, and that is a big deal.
We're reaching 80% ICU capacity. That's not something you can ru
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Make that "no other infectious disease" up there. Because that's the point.
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Ha, yeah, that can't have anything to do with the fact that Winter is outdoor time in Florida as opposed to the rest of the country when it is indoor time due to the weather.
And Florida's massive summer surge when any sensible Floridian was indoors out of the humidity and heat certainly doesn't support that case! https://ycharts.com/indicators... [ycharts.com] .
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Did I get my decimal point off? ... Yes I did.
Ratio is still 3:1 though