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NASA Space United States

Jeff Bezos and Sir Richard Branson Not Yet Astronauts, US Says (bbc.com) 80

New Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) rules say astronaut hopefuls must be part of the flight crew and make contributions to space flight safety. That means Jeff Bezos and Sir Richard Branson may not yet be astronauts in the eyes of the US government. The BBC reports: These are the first changes since the FAA wings program began in 2004. The Commercial Astronaut Wings program updates were announced on Tuesday -- the same day that Amazon's Mr Bezos flew aboard a Blue Origin rocket to the edge of space. To qualify as commercial astronauts, space-goers must travel 50 miles (80km) above the Earth's surface, which both Mr Bezos and Mr Branson accomplished. But altitude aside, the agency says would-be astronauts must have also "demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety." What exactly counts as such is determined by FAA officials.

In a statement, the FAA said that these changes brought the wings scheme more in line with its role to protect public safety during commercial space flights. On July 11, Sir Richard flew on-board Virgin Galactic's SpaceShipTwo to the edge of space as a test before allowing customers aboard next year. Mr Bezos and the three other crew members who flew on Blue Origin's spacecraft may have less claim to the coveted title. Ahead of the launch, Blue Origin CEO Bob Smith said that "there's really nothing for a crew member to do" on the autonomous vehicle. Those wishing for commercial wings need to be nominated for them as well. An FAA spokesperson told CNN they are not currently reviewing any submissions.

There are two other ways to earn astronaut wings in the US - through the military or Nasa. However, a glimmer of hope remains for Sir Richard, Mr Bezos and any future stargazers hoping to be recognized as astronauts. The new order notes that honorary awards can be given based on merit -- at the discretion of the FAA's associate administrator. Astronaut wings were first awarded to astronauts Alan Shepard Jr and Virgil Grissom in the early 1960s for their participation in the Mercury Seven program.

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Jeff Bezos and Sir Richard Branson Not Yet Astronauts, US Says

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  • by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @08:33PM (#61614297)

    They're joyriders who have the means to build themselves the most expensive and exclusive roller coaster in history.

    They're not astronauts anymore than business jet passengers are aviators.

    • What sort of piloting is needed on a spaceship? If I recall correctly Russia flew into orbit a couple of dogs, Belka and Strelka, in the 1950s and returned them safely. Did they have pilot training. I will better even a lot of shuttle mission specialists could not fly a plane.

      Korolev initially wanted the first man in space to be a circus acrobat, Stalin vetoed him for prestige and image reasons. Korolev did not want a pilot trying to F things up. And that was the 1950s/60s when they didnâ(TM)t even hav

      • You can say the same thing of airline pilots: they work 3 minutes at take off and landing, and press a button and watch the purty lights on the dashboard for hours in-between. Yet they're pilots.

        Crucially, they have the training to take over and do pilot or astronaut stuff if required - something the passengers can't do.

        Also, in the case of pioneers, they risk their lives to venture into the unknown, even if they're not in charge - something I'm 110% sure Bezos and Branson didn't do. That counts for somethi

        • Bezos and the crew did have 14 hours of training -- which is more than enough. It's also safe to assume Bezos knows a little about rockets having been running Blue Origin for 20 years. On the way up, the rocket is autonomous .. it fires the engines automatically under the guidance of a computer, a human isn't needed to do anything. A human can't manually time the shutoff or other parameters. As for the way back down, how much maneuvering do you think a space capsule falling from the sky has? It literally fa

          • The US Govt seems to be snubbing these two. Granted, they did not really orbit. But... contribute to safety? That sounds like an arbitrary yardstick if I ever heard one. Was all the civilians and scientists aboard every Shuttle mission an astronaut?
            • I doubt it's *just* them - either they change the rules so that astronaut wings continue to mean something, or NASA starts routinely wasting time and prestige handing out glorified party favors to everyone who signs up for their expensive joyrides.

              Even beyond joyriders - as we begin to industrialize and (slightly) democratize space we'll need to decide - should the janitors, hair-stylists, etc. on the moon-base be considered astronauts? Or are they just schmucks who happen to work in space? These new rule

            • Yup. The FAA rules may as well state:

              4.a.(3).b.1: If your name is "Richard Branson" or "Jeff Bezos" we will not recognise you as an astronaut. Nyah nyah nyah-nyah nyah!

      • wikipedia.
        the pin is issued in two grades.
        silver and gold.
        the silver pin awarded to candidates who have successfully completed astronaut training.
        the gold pin to astronauts who have flown in space.
        astronaut candidates are given the silver pin but are required to purchase the gold pin at a cost of approximately 400 dollars.
        bezos and bransons groups have only earned gold wings

    • by vux984 ( 928602 )

      business jet passengers rarely directly funded the design and construction of the jet end-to-end.

      These rockets wouldn't even exist without these people, and not in the way that a particular 747 wouldn't exist if a particular billionaire didn't buy it.

      They may not be "astronauts" but they're not merely passengers on a boeing plane they bought either.

      • The 747 was created as a business case to fly people around cheaply. The Branson and Bezos craft were created to entertain ultra-rich people.

        And yes, I know the argument that eventually it'll become available to ordinary folks. But you know what? After 70 years of "trickle down" theory, I ain't buying it. The rich keep getting richer and doing more out-of-touch stuff, and the rest of us never gets to join the club no more.

        Those stunt vehicle will remain the preserve of the 1% of the 1%. That I can guarantee

        • And yes, I know the argument that eventually it'll become available to ordinary folks. But you know what? After 70 years of "trickle down" theory, I ain't buying it. The rich keep getting richer and doing more out-of-touch stuff, and the rest of us never gets to join the club no more.

          The list is in no way complete, or guaranteed accurate, but here is a list of things only rich people used to be able to do, which ordinary people now (more easily) can do too:

          Be a passenger on an airplane
          Eat certain foods (salt, ice-cream, fruit, venison, chocolate)
          Have spices
          Own a telephone
          Own a car
          Go on a cruise

          Some things are now nearly within reach of ordinary people, like going to the north pole.

          Does Galapagos count as only for the rich, or is it now considered available for the common?

          Will we be able

          • None of that has anything to do with trickle down economics. It has everything to do with the progress of technology; globalization, refrigeration, telecommunications, and automotive advances.

            Awfully hard to own a car before they were invented. A Ford Model T, in today's dollars, cost about 16,000 usd new. That's actually cheaper than most new cars today. Cars have been mass-produced for mass consumption for over a hundred years, long before 'trickle-down' economics was ever a policy.

            Eating certain fo
        • trickle down economics is a straw man argument here that has nothing to do with the progress of technology

          Enthusiasts (specifically the rich) have almost always been first adopters outside of the government. That goes with most all technology even down to something as small as a new top of the line GPU. Obviously the larger/more expensive the technology the richer or more dedicated with your money one needs to be. Even mobile phones and computers used to be pretty exclusive.

          It especially goes for travel.

          • FWIW it's always been expensive for someone to go to space. The difference with this versus that is with this the travelers are being charged directly (or being paid for by Bezos in the case of Funk). With others the taxpayers are being charged and the cost spread amongst them. However, the taxpayers have 0 chance of going to space even though they share the cost.

            Don't argue that amazon customers are sharing the burden. Amazon customers are paying for products they receive. They aren't forced to buy tho

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        They may not be "astronauts" but they're not merely passengers on a boeing plane they bought either.

        Yes, yes that is exactly what they are. They are passengers on a craft they bought. It doesn't matter if they paid for the design, they're just sitting in the fucking thing while it moves. That is the definition of a passenger, ffs. They don't know how to build one, they don't know how it works outside of layman's terms, and they can't fly it. They are fucking passengers when they ride in it. Period. Rich motherfucking passengers, but still passengers. Let's say this together one more time, they are not ast

        • By that definition there have not been any astronauts because none of them could build the rocket they are flying on. Do you think every astronaut should be able to fabricate a rocket engine? What kind of stupidity is that? Most of the astronauts that flew in shuttle were mission specialists to carry out science experiments in zero gravity or space. Heck a geologist walked on the moon.

          • Don't be such a tool, they don't have to be all of those things, the point is they aren't any of those things

      • So Elon Musk is also an astronaut by your reasoning, he was directly involved in the Falcon rocket that delivered people to the ISS in may. Not just up in the air and back down again but into orbit.

        The only difference is he hasn't been a passenger in a flight that didn't really go anywhere.

        • by vux984 ( 928602 )

          By my reasoning? Where did i claim Bezos and Branson were astronauts?

          All I did was say there is a difference between being the primary instigator and funder of a whole space project and buying an airplane from Boeing.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by niftydude ( 1745144 )
      Still, the definition *has* changed.

      How embarrassing for them must it be that they are ranked lower than a macaque: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      Albert the monkey is considered an astronaut by the FAA. Bezos and Branson not so much.
      • Albert the monkey is considered an astronaut by the FAA. Bezos and Branson not so much.

        If it's any consolation, Bezos and Branson are probably considered monkeys by the FAA.

      • While the "contributed to human space flight safety during flight" thing is indeed added post hoc, change of definition must happen one day anyway because either this or "astronaut" no longer count as an occupation.
        • Why the hell does it need to count as an occupation?

          Do astronomers have to do astronomy for a living?
          So grandmasters have to play chess for a living?

          Now, before you reply, in case you arent picking up what I am putting down (its you) the answer to these questions is "fuck no"
          • We talk of amateur astronomers for people who do astronomy but not for living. We talk of amateur chess players for who play chess but not (good enough) for a living. (Usually someone can only be called grandmaster if one's chess skill or kung-fu skill is good enough to earn money)

            Now take Bezos' and Sir Branson's spacecrafts. Does it make sense to call passengers of them amateur astronauts? Probably not. No matter how many time they "practice", they won't learn how to fly the crafts by themselves nor wo

    • The article I read said Branson beat the change by a few days. But in general I agree. Just because you flew American Airlines does not exactly make you a pilot or crew.
    • By this logic, 5/6 of all people to travel in the space shuttle are not astronauts. Not even the ones who conducted space walks.
    • Funny that you say "BUSINESS jet passengers", when of course any airplane passenger isn't a pilot.

      The seething class envy thing is so toxic.

  • by berchca ( 414155 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @08:38PM (#61614311) Homepage

    Them rich folks may get to go to space and all, but at least we still have semantics.

  • Writing checks is a type of contribution.
  • by znrt ( 2424692 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @08:44PM (#61614325)

    The new order notes that honorary awards can be given based on merit -- at the discretion of the FAA's associate administrator.

    well played. so how much is an astronaut badge, mr associate administrator?

    • How much contribution does one have to make?

      Take airline cabin crew as an example. Their duties "contribute to flight safety" by directing people to their seats, getting them buckled in, keeping people fed and hydrated, deal with minor medical issues (airsickness mostly), and perhaps most of all give the inflight safety briefing. If things go real wrong then they have to get people out in a hurry, help the flight deck crew, put out fires, deal with unruly passengers (up to people that want to harm others)

  • If that doesn't mean "astronaut" then we need a new word. Anyway I'm sure Bezos' company contributed massive amounts of science toward safe space travel. Or if Bridenstine took a joy ride on a NASA mission would we deny him the word too? If we do need a new word it should apply to the people who weren't the first to space on a new kind of vehicle.
    • Re: (Score:1, Interesting)

      It does. The fact that Branson, Bezos and their fellow passengers were never military pilots probably irked some general. Based on this, no SR71 backseater is an astronaut either. I think the USAF is going to be upset.
      • SR-71 never got near space. You might have thought of X-15, which went over the 50 mile limit but not over the Karman line (100km, the international limit for space). US lowered the limit to 50 miles such those pilots could get their wings..
    • by pavon ( 30274 )

      If you want a fancy greek sounding word, astroepivat is a shortened anglicized version of star passenger, much like astronaut is a shortened anglicized version of star sailor, which is an apt, an non-insulting description of their role in the flight.

      Or you could just go with space tourist.

    • Flying on a plane, 12km above the sea doesn't make you a pilot or flight crew.
      Just because you sat on a plane that has rockets instead of jet engines and went 83km up instead of 12 doesn't make you a astronaut. The only contribution to the flight these people made was ballast.

      If you can replace the people with monkey's, they're not really doing anything are they?
      Sure, the astronauts in the space shuttle didn't fly the shuttle as it went up, but they could have taken over or chosen to abort the mission if th

  • Our government can't manage to have a space program anymore, but they can withhold their purely imaginary distinctions, lol

    It's like watching broke aristocrats sneer at people in "trade".

    • by Mattcelt ( 454751 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @11:23PM (#61614577)

      Our government can't manage to have a space program anymore

      The people who work on LRO, MRO, Mars landers, Hubble, Webb, New Horizons, Space Command, etc. (nearly ad infinitum) might take a bit of issue with your definition of what a 'space program' is there, lad.

      I'd say the US still has a fairly robust space progam. [wikipedia.org]

      • Our government can't manage to have a space program anymore

        The people who work on LRO, MRO, Mars landers, Hubble, Webb, New Horizons, Space Command, etc. (nearly ad infinitum) might take a bit of issue with your definition of what a 'space program' is there, lad.

        I'd say the US still has a fairly robust space progam. [wikipedia.org]

        Since you knew exactly what I meant, I decline to have an imaginary argument.

    • Our government can't manage to have a space program anymore

      The things the US space program has done in the last 5 years are much more exciting than the space shuttle was.

  • Dick move (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ElizabethGreene ( 1185405 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @10:08PM (#61614479)
    This is a dick move, and the FAA should be chastised for it. "demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety." is wholly arbitrary criteria.
    • So is going over an imaginary line at a certain height above the earth surface.
      So far the Astronaut Badge has been awarded to people who've trained and completed missions in space.
      The FAA and the DoD are under no obligation to start handing out participation trophies.

      • by WallyL ( 4154209 )
        Yes, and driving a car used to be done by, well, probably the inventors of automobiles. But now pretty much everybody can drive a car. So things become more accessible over time. Did these rich folks undergo training for being a good passenger on these flights/trips? It definitely appears they completed a mission, even if it was a just a departure and return trip.

        The astronaut badge might become just that, a participation trophy.
    • Not as much as you think. It's playing semantics but it's perfectly consistent.
      You're not an aviator if sit on a Delta flight to the New York.
      You're not a sailor if you sit on a boat that someone else pilots or controls. Same with jumping on a ferry across the river, or booking a cruise.

      Now that sailor reference is very relevant to an astron- (Greek word for space) -nautes (Greek word for sailor).

      But the definitions vary:
      NASA defines astronauts as" people who have been deployed as crew members on a spacecra

    • Reminds me of the guy who went up with Neil and Buzz but had to stay in the capsule. Oh it's fine, I actually prefer the capsule. What are they playing golf out there?
    • (Replying to myself)

      I get that suborbital "tourist" flights aren't of obvious scientific value. One of my co-replies referred to giving wings for these as "participation trophies".

      The value of tourism spaceflights is in creating demand for the private spaceflight industry. We will never have cheap access to space without massive private investment. Crapping on those private ventures as they are literally getting off the ground is idiocy.

    • So have them give a preflight seatbelt demonstration and double check the doors are shut. Boom, contributed to flight safety.
    • by ebvwfbw ( 864834 )

      They didn't hit the 100 KM line. Only 60 KM. That's not space. There's still an atmosphere outside. Not much, however it's there.

  • Why are people hung up on whether or not Bezos and Branson are or are not astonauts?
    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      IDK, I find it kind of amusing that FAA get all butt-hurt that Bezos or Branson might be astronauts and seek to define the word in such a way as to exclude then. Some of the dictionary definitions just go by astronauts being people that entered space.

      • by mark-t ( 151149 )

        Well, the literal definition of astronaut is "someone who travels though space", full stop.

        By my reasoning, that would mean that anyone who has only ever traveled in low earth orbit is not an astronaut. While Bezos and Bransoin may have traveled beyond the point that we traditionally accept as where space begins while sticking so relatively near to it edge is not what I would consider "travelling through" any more than I would consider wading in a swimming pool the same thing as swimming. So by my recko

  • ex post facto?

  • If they are astronauts, then I am a pilot since I flown in planes.

  • As much as I think the launches were self serving, this, as a response to that, is just as self serving.

    Both of these individuals spent considerably money to achieve goals in space flight that many people fail to even comprehend.

    • goals in space flight that many people fail to even comprehend.

      That's true, I don't comprehend what they have achieved.

  • Just curious, did they ever think it through? What would wings contribute in space? A rocket, an engine bell, a propellant tank, satellite with solar panels. But wings?
  • These seem to be just to spite the commercial space business. Yes, billionaires are just doing some expensive joyrides, at their own expense. But they are indirectly funding space travel research. And, let us not forget today NASA and the federal government has *zero* human rated spacecraft in service. (So this reeks entirely of jealousy).

    Also, *safety* is the criteria, really? In terms of flight safety, let's repeat: "there's really nothing for a crew member to do". So basically no tourist will be given co

  • Someone please tell me that meeting this FAA requirement and somehow giving passengers an astronaut title was not a part of their business model.

    This has to be some kind of coincidence, right? Right?

  • Plenty of NASA astronauts launched to do things like public relations or education of school kids guess we need to revoke those. Fuck, the NASA astronauts on the ISS should probably get negative wings as they are using up public funds which could be used to send up just/more effective automated missions. Give me a break. I know those 'astraunauts' are quite smart and do experiments etc but saying that's a contribution to aerospace safety etc is like saying you are making a contribution to roller coaster

  • An evolved system should not need human intervention as it will be superior to the meatbag passengers. "Skill" is only necessary when a machine has a problem a meatbag is able and equipped to solve.

    The real point of human technology is to replace humanity with something much better, not merely augment it. The virtue of humanity means we want to be better than we are which will eventually involve discarding what we are as obsolete and inferior to what the best of us can build. The real accomplishments shoul

  • They are astronauts in the same sense as cruise ship passengers are sailors
  • "Check!" Astronaut confirmed.
  • Prior to commercial space flight capability, space shots were the exclusive privy of national government agencies. It was a prestigious, national pride sort of thing, to launch humans from your country into space. The technology was advanced. The people sent were from our top pilots and scientific minds and had rigorous training, setting the bar too high for most normal ordinary people.

    For Americans, that pride turned to embarrassment when the Shuttle program was ended without a function successor. A
  • The FAA can whine all they want but the fact of the matter is that private spaceflight has been kicking the ass of taxpayer-funded spaceflight for years.

  • Who cares whether some random a-hole gets some meaningless title of nobility from a country that has no titles of nobility?

  • Ha Ha! Flippin' wankers.

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