Linus Torvalds Tells Anti-Vaxxer To Shut Up On Linux Mailing List (iu.edu) 603
Linus Torvalds was "clearly unamused" by a "humanoid conspiracy theory, and also on its discussion in a Linux kernel topic thread," reports Neowin. They add that Torvalds "weighed in quite heavily with some very strong language, mixed with some biology lessons..."
Here's an excerpt from Torvalds' response (as shared by Slashdot reader Hmmmmmm): Please keep your insane and technically incorrect anti-vax comments to yourself.
You don't know what you are talking about, you don't know what mRNA is, and you're spreading idiotic lies. Maybe you do so unwittingly, because of bad education. Maybe you do so because you've talked to "experts" or watched youtube videos by charlatans that don't know what they are talking about.
But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me.
Vaccines have saved the lives of literally tens of millions of people.
Just for your edification in case you are actually willing to be educated: mRNA doesn't change your genetic sequence in any way. It is the exact same intermediate - and temporary - kind of material that your cells generate internally all the time as part of your normal cell processes, and all that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it.
The half-life of mRNA is a few hours. Any injected mRNA will be all gone from your body in a day or two. It doesn't change anything long-term, except for that natural "your body now knows how to recognize and fight off a new foreign protein" (which then tends to fade over time too, but lasts a lot longer than a few days). And yes, while your body learns to fight off that foreign material, you may feel like shit for a while. That's normal, and it's your natural response to your cells spending resources on learning how to deal with the new threat.
And of the vaccines, the mRNA ones are the most modern, and the most targeted - exactly because they do *not* need to have any of the other genetic material that you traditionally have in a vaccine (ie no need for basically the whole - if weakened - bacterial or virus genetic material). So the mRNA vaccines actually have *less* of that foreign material in them than traditional vaccines do. And a *lot* less than the very real and actual COVID-19 virus that is spreading in your neighborhood.
Honestly, anybody who has told you differently, and who has told you that it changes your genetic material, is simply uneducated. You need to stop believing the anti-vax lies, and you need to start protecting your family and the people around you. Get vaccinated...
Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies.
And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists.
Here's an excerpt from Torvalds' response (as shared by Slashdot reader Hmmmmmm): Please keep your insane and technically incorrect anti-vax comments to yourself.
You don't know what you are talking about, you don't know what mRNA is, and you're spreading idiotic lies. Maybe you do so unwittingly, because of bad education. Maybe you do so because you've talked to "experts" or watched youtube videos by charlatans that don't know what they are talking about.
But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me.
Vaccines have saved the lives of literally tens of millions of people.
Just for your edification in case you are actually willing to be educated: mRNA doesn't change your genetic sequence in any way. It is the exact same intermediate - and temporary - kind of material that your cells generate internally all the time as part of your normal cell processes, and all that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it.
The half-life of mRNA is a few hours. Any injected mRNA will be all gone from your body in a day or two. It doesn't change anything long-term, except for that natural "your body now knows how to recognize and fight off a new foreign protein" (which then tends to fade over time too, but lasts a lot longer than a few days). And yes, while your body learns to fight off that foreign material, you may feel like shit for a while. That's normal, and it's your natural response to your cells spending resources on learning how to deal with the new threat.
And of the vaccines, the mRNA ones are the most modern, and the most targeted - exactly because they do *not* need to have any of the other genetic material that you traditionally have in a vaccine (ie no need for basically the whole - if weakened - bacterial or virus genetic material). So the mRNA vaccines actually have *less* of that foreign material in them than traditional vaccines do. And a *lot* less than the very real and actual COVID-19 virus that is spreading in your neighborhood.
Honestly, anybody who has told you differently, and who has told you that it changes your genetic material, is simply uneducated. You need to stop believing the anti-vax lies, and you need to start protecting your family and the people around you. Get vaccinated...
Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies.
And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists.
Basically keep that stuff out of a technical list (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with all of what Linus is saying, but basically the main thing is - please keep political stuff out of technical lists. No political winking jokes, nothing political at all.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Funny)
please keep political stuff out of technical lists. No political winking jokes, nothing political at all.
Exactly! The LKML is a dumpster fire of off-topic emails, insane rants, white supremacist ascii art and dirty memes from the 90s. It's high time Linus took a page from /.'s book and got his shit together.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Vaccines aren't a political topic. If they are to you then you should probably re-think your life.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Vaccines aren't a political topic.
Of course they are. Anything where one group believes something, another group doesn't believe something, and both groups vote is a political topic as there are morons out there who pander to even the most stupid of voters.
Want to know how political vaccines are? 100% of Democrats in the House and Senate are vaccinated, and only half of republican house members are (though 90% of the senate are).
What is this disparity across political lines? ... well ... politics. Denying that vaccination is political is dangerous, because the different sides of politics have different "beliefs" in vaccination but depending on who is running the government may have a direct impact in vaccination programs around the country.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course they are. Anything where one group believes something, another group doesn't believe something, and both groups vote is a political topic as there are morons out there who pander to even the most stupid of voters.
Fuck that. Some people hate pineapple pizza. Some people believe the earth to be flat. And some people think vacccines put microchips in you designed by Bill Gates.
None of these are political views.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
None of these are political views.
I didn't say these people's views are political. I said vaccination is a political topic because politicians pander to the views. To pretend otherwise is ignorant of politics. I haven't heard a congressperson come out in favour of pineapple on pizza, but the topic of vaccinations, every aspect of it, how and to whom it should be administered seems to have been quite a talking point on floor of both the house and senate.
If that doesn't make something political then I think you and I are looking up that word in very different dictionaries.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course they are. Anything where one group believes something, another group doesn't believe something, and both groups vote is a political topic as there are morons out there who pander to even the most stupid of voters.
Fuck that. Some people hate pineapple pizza. Some people believe the earth to be flat. And some people think vacccines put microchips in you designed by Bill Gates.
None of these are political views.
Politics are how we handle societal disputes. Supposed to be, anyway. It beats war.
Many things about vaccines are political: how and whether they get government funding, which ones are approved or not for use, whether they are mandatory or not, and how that is to be administered. All are properly political subjects.
(None of which belong on a linux kernel mailing list, to be sure. But then, neither do any other political views, including those that might be popular with list members.)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That depends - true for half the people (Score:5, Insightful)
You say conservatives believe a lot of things aren't political.
You believe everything is political. For you, what someone eats is political, what park they go to is political, everything about their life is political.
You're right.
And so are they.
From Merriam Webster:
political adjective
Definition of political
1a: of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government
b: of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2: of, relating to, involving
It's also been said that politics is the system of exercising power over others.
So you're right, for conservatives what you eat isn't political - they don't want to use the power of government to force you to eat this or that.
They don't want to set up a system of exercising power over whether you go to the park or not. As you said, for conservatives these aren't political decisions, they are personal decisions - decisions for you to make for yourself.
You also pointed out that for you, *everything* is political. For *everything* in life, it's *all* the government's business. There is no part of life where you don't want to exercise power over others, nothing for which you are willing to let each person make their own decision, to have freedom. For you, every aspect of life is a political struggle, a struggle for you to enforce your will on everyone else.
What you said is absolutely right.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. Vaccines are a scientific topic with a lot of well-established scientifically sound facts surrounding them.
But spreading extreme lies about them (as this guy did) is political, in the same sense that terrorism is. It has no place in a professional setting, or any civilized setting at that. This person is literally arguing for killing and maiming people by arguing for an entirely preventable spreading of an infectious disease. There is no place in civilized society for that type of scum.
Re: (Score:3)
Funding them is political. Mandating them for children, food workers, or health care workers is political. Insisting that doctors report infections, and that staff report injections to a national database is political.
The idea that politics have no place in a professional setting is a peculiar one, like the idea that there should be no office politics. It's not well founded.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Vaccines aren't a political topic. If they are to you then you should probably re-think your life.
Vaccines shouldn't be a political topic. However, unfortunately in the US, vaccines are obviously a front and center political topic. If there were just a few crackpots here and there, then it's not a big deal. However, many millions (maybe up to 20%) of Americans will refuse vaccination on the basis of political belief, so it's it not only a political issue, but a political issue that has huge ramifications on public health.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Funny)
It's "pedants," not "pendants!" We pedants hate being confused with pendants!!
Re: (Score:3)
But, if you're a pedant and you're just hanging around, would that make you a pedant pendant? Or would that be an ornament hanging around a pedant's neck?
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:4, Insightful)
Both pedants and pendants are often confused with pendejos.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:4, Insightful)
Anti-vaccination is apparently only considered a political stance in the US. Bullshit. It's a RWNJ position world-wide. Here in Australia it is only conservative fuckwads pushing that bullshit. It's no different anywhere else.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:4, Informative)
Also paranoid hippies. Still fuckwads nonetheless.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Sigh. Not sure why I'm about to bother, but here goes.
"This changes cell function and produces a protein that your body only recognises because it damages it." No it doesn't. Linus's explanation was pretty good. It transiently allows your own cellular machinery to produce a protein fragment unique to Covid, resulting in your immune system recognizing that to generate a rapid reaction in the future in case you're exposed to the actual virus. Just like your immune system does all the time. It's not "causing damage".
"it is least effective on those most at risk from the targeted contagion, and most effective for those least at risk". Huh? No. People incapable of mounting any immune response are indeed at significant risk in general, but they're profoundly few and far between. In fact, for those few with such dysfunctional immune systems it's a great idea for the bulk of everyone else to be immunized. For the vast majority of people "at most risk" the actual science (you should read it) has clearly demonstrated they mount effective immune responses.
"it becomes more dangerous, with over reaction " You've jumped the shark here. No.
"Overall it is a pretty shitty vaccine concept" Actually it's a brilliant bit of technology, the culmination of decades worth of research. As a vaccine it might be a new application, largely because there hasn't been a need for a new vaccine using such technology until now, but the same techniques have been used for years (targeted cancer therapies, for example).
"The virus less dangerous than the flu for those under 70". Also no. Our mistake perhaps has been keeping people out of the hospitals so that it's been a very abstract and invisible experience for everyone else. I work in one, and have been in that soup routinely for over a year. I've watched many people die, plenty of them young and under 70. I've watched pregnant women with covid die on the ventilator but deliver their babies, I have a colleague ~60 who was healthy require a lung transplant, young people have large strokes, young people have long-term cognitive issues, nurses bring covid home and have family members die. It is NOT less dangerous than the flu for those under 70.
"If the vaccine failure rate is higher than the death and hospitalisation rate, logically, mathematically, [etc]". Not sure what you're getting at here, but logic and math are predicated on correct facts and assumptions. With vaccines, we've clearly seen dramatic reductions in transmission. Lots of published science there. We still have patients in the hospitals, but the ones lingering and the new ones are more or less all unvaccinated. In the past few months it has become very clear in our local data, and nationally, that vaccinated patients are no longer the ones hospitalized. That was also one of the primary findings in the published vaccine trials.
I get that just telling you that you have your facts wrong will result in you digging in your heels, but Covid was nasty. A lot of people died or were left with profound long-term problems. Not just "old people" with comorbidities, but pleny of otherwise healthy young people. I've been dealing with that first-hand the entire time, and I'm tired of this conversation. The vaccine is effective. It's not "experimental" but the result of decades of genetic research, and it's saving lives.
I'm no fan of the drug companies and their profits, but Pfizer and Moderna in this case deserve what they make off it.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with the approach, by it's very design, it is least effective on those most at risk from the targeted contagion, and most effective for those least at risk
That is literally true for all vaccines. Your immune system has to function well to recognize a new contagion - whether it's artificially introduced or the actual illness.
There are two things that help with that. 1) adding adjuvants to the vaccine to help prime the immune system to respond. And 2) Having enough healthy people vaccinated that the risk is low for the vulnerable even getting exposed.
Logically for any mRNA vaccine to be considered worth while the failure rate must be lower than the death and hospitalisation rate, MULTIPLES. If the vaccine failure rate is higher than the death and hospitalisation rate, logically, mathematically, the vaccine is a complete and utter waste of time and will just end up killing people who are the least at risk from the virus
The failure rate being below 50% will eventually slow the spread enough to end the pandemic. That we're getting 90% or more for some versions is just a bonus. The network effects are way more important than the individual basis.
I think worldwide, the number of deaths that can reasonable be attributed to the vaccine is under two dozen out of hundreds of millions. And that's being generous. It seems to be mostly those prone to blood clotting issues whose ACE2 receptors were already overly active and would also have been at risk from the virus itself too
I don't see that as the main thing (Score:3)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, this is not feasible right now. Ask people on database technical lists about how "master" and "slave" are no longer permitted labels for "server" and "agent" or "primary" and "seconday" setups. Or simple electrical connectors which are cannot be labeled "male" or "female". I've also encountered some very strange conversations where "binary" and "color-coding" have been greeted with political reactions.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical (Score:3)
But it impacts a lot of stuff in the world, not only you.
Remember that it's not the words themselves that usually are offensive, it's the context.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to admit. If calling things primary and secondary are comforting to some people and master and slave offensive, then call it primary and secondary. Itâ(TM)s really not affecting my job in anyway to use these newer terms.
Not a good idea. "Master" and "Slave" means the slave does not have autonomy to decide and executes everything requested by the master. It is exactly the right terminology for the cases it is used in. Also, people of all colors and races have been slaves throughout history. If any specific race claims a victim-privilege here, then that would just be exceptionally racist. Now, civilized society agrees these days that making a person a slave is unacceptable and that is as it should be. On the other hand, making technological components slaves is not a problem in any way.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:4, Insightful)
Not a good idea. "Master" and "Slave" means the slave does not have autonomy to decide and executes everything requested by the master. It is exactly the right terminology for the cases it is used in.
Except for ATA disks, where the master and slave have nothing to do with one another. Or in hydraulic systems, where the actuating cylinder and the actuated cylinder are in a push-pull relationship that works both ways. Or in bus mastering where there can be multiple masters and they can affect one another, not just devices which aren't called masters, and where devices are only sometimes called slaves.
Frankly, master and slave are terms which are more frequently misused than not in tech.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope. Really not. A "responder" can and usually will have agency. A "slave" very specifically does not. Your comment pretty clearly indicates you do not understand the technological question involved at all.
And no, all other choices are less descriptive, less specific and hence problematic.
Re: Basically keep that stuff out of a technical l (Score:5, Insightful)
What he's saying is that just because a word describes something unpleasant when it is applied to a human, there's no reason not to use it on an inanimate object when it describes its function with greater specificity than the alternatives.
When I ask you what your favorite brand of computer is, you are not offended by the word "brand", even though it literally means burning an owner/producer's mark into something -- something that very unfortunately was done to humans in great numbers in the past, and is certainly relevant to the terms being discussed here.
"Robot" means "serf" in Czech, the language the word was first coined in. I bet you use that term all the time.
People do not police language to achieve any direct objective benefit, they police language as a means of exerting moral authority. Getting rid of the word slave to describe a computer frees no human slaves. Control the language, and you control the mind.
Give it a few years unchecked and "branding" and "robot" will be next on the list.
Re: (Score:3)
So they ctrl-F for all instances of "slave" in the manual and again for "master". The densest of manuals shouldnt take more than a few hours. This is not a major problem.
Re: (Score:3)
At work we decided to rename the "master" branch to the "main" branch. This is a fairly inoffensive change, and no one was offended.
No one wanted to do the effort, either. It has remained "master" for a year after making that decision, despite our best intentions.
Re: (Score:3)
Or simple electrical connectors which are cannot be labeled "male" or "female".
Please, for the love of god stop being an arsehole and stop whinging about this.
"Male and female" for connectors is an incredibly stupid term and works for banana plugs and 3.5mm jacks and very little more complex than that. It's a stupid and confusing piece of terminology, and you end up with utter absurdities because idiots like you keep on insist on bad terminology because the politics behind keeping it is part of your identi
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:4, Interesting)
One thing I don't understand. The right wing is all about capitalism, right?
Vaccines are produced by corporations that profit billions from them, right?
Not believing in vaccines, is like not believing in capitalism, right? Because:even if they don't work or even if they do harm, corporations still get paid, so from capitalist point of view, it is all good. And if the vaccine is bad, other companies will compete on the market and provide better vaccine.
Other thing that I don't understand:
Right wing is patriotic and they don't care about the lives of people in other countries, especially in the poor countries, right? They don't trust vaccines, they think they might cause harm, right? Why don't they then push the vaccines into poor countries. If vaccines cause harm, it is caused to those poor people. If it works, it becomes tested and you can safely use it yourself also and even if you don't want to use it, your holiday location opens its borders and lets you fly there faster. And if you happen to believe that vaccines work but cause harm and you believe that deceases spread, by vaccinating poor countries you eliminate some spread ways from the virus and decrease your own risk. Only thing you lose is a little money that goes to corporation, which stock you should own anyway so basically tax money is directed to you, risk goes to poor people and you get possible health benefits. You can't lose.
Almost (Score:5, Informative)
"I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about," she continued in the clip from an exclusive interview airing Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" at 9 a.m. ET. "I will not take his word for it."
Re: Almost (Score:5, Insightful)
That is very, very much not what was said (Score:5, Informative)
So what she said was she didn't trust Donald Trump. And after those last 4 years who would? This was just 5 days before the Bob Woodward interviews leaked.
Re:That is very, very much not what was said (Score:5, Informative)
So what she said was she didn't trust Donald Trump. And after those last 4 years who would? This was just 5 days before the Bob Woodward interviews leaked.
This. Remember, we're talking about the guy who had the Federal Government stockpile 63 million doses of hydroxychloroquine, for no goddamn reason other than Fox News suggesting it was a miracle cure for COVID.
Re: (Score:3)
What I take away from that quote is that she doesn't just sweep everything off the table because it was made in Trump's time - she just wants some independent confirmation that it's good because Trump's behavior has made it so she won't default to trusting it.
Re: That is very, very much not what was said (Score:4, Insightful)
The best are pushed away by the ruthless that are after power, money and fame.
We seldom see politicians that are willing to risk themselves for a political goal. And politicians with scientific competence are even rarer. Science don't sell in politics, but religion seems to sell better.
The problem isn't losing the best people (Score:3)
Re:The problem isn't losing the best people (Score:5, Interesting)
Of the wedge issues, it seems that the most strongly regarded are rooted in religious belief... abortion and sexuality come to the forefront, with crime and public order gaining ground. Race as an issue is also gaining traction, despite the fact that it's predominately a makeup call, and racial divides are narrower than ever.
I have friends who only vote on a single issue. "One candidate is for abortion, and one is against it."
This inability to separate the greater good from a singular belief is at least part of the reason we have the leaders we deserve, rather than the leaders we need.
Re: (Score:3)
The point is all politicians are liars, but most of them are much better at hiding it than trump was.
Re:That is very, very much not what was said (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no doubt that Donald Trump will go down in history to be the greatest US president since Ronald Reagan, despite the best efforts of the socialist Left.
Then you're a fool, even if it's just for believing that the USA even has a socialist left.
Re: (Score:3)
I have to ask, have you suffered any serious blows to the head? Perhaps tertiary syphilis?
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Insightful)
When the current VP is on record saying she would not trust a vaccine produced under the Orange Bad Man administration...well, it not about owning the libs.
I'm sorry but how fucking retarded are you to still believe this after the actual transcript has been published over and over again. Torvalds gave the anti-vaxxer the benefit of doubt, doubt about their education. But even the most uneducated dumbass can't possibly come up your view, not here on slashdot where the record has been corrected over and over again.
So what's you excuse? Your UID is low, so having missed the previous posts isn't an excuse. God knows this shit your spredding comes up in every fucking COVID thread. Common, lay it on us? Are you being paid to spread misinformation? Were you having a stroke? Ignorance at this point has ceased being an excuse.
Re: (Score:3)
When she's actually on the record saying she wouldn't trust a vaccine until it was FDA approved, it's about the right lying. As usual.
Re: (Score:3)
If this conspiracy theory were actually true (China working on a vaccine in advance to jump in and save the world), it'd just be a sign of massive incompetence, since Sinovac has terrible efficacy as far as COVID vaccines go.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:4, Interesting)
If this conspiracy theory were actually true (China working on a vaccine in advance to jump in and save the world), it'd just be a sign of massive incompetence, since Sinovac has terrible efficacy as far as COVID vaccines go.
That is how the morons like to think: On one hand, China is decades ahead by having engineered the virus without any markers that any known process to do so would leave. On the other hand, basically in a closely related field, they are significantly behind, because they are Chinese and incompetent. Unfortunately, even cognitive dissonance this extreme cannot make the brains of those idiots explode or the world would be a better place.
Re:Basically keep that stuff out of a technical li (Score:5, Funny)
If this conspiracy theory were actually true (China working on a vaccine in advance to jump in and save the world), it'd just be a sign of massive incompetence, since Sinovac has terrible efficacy as far as COVID vaccines go.
Ahaaaa, but that's where you are falling for the CCP's trap. You see the CCP intentionally created crappy vaccines that require two and three booster shots as a false flag operation to cover up their cunning plan to design COVID in a lab and unleash it on humanity to embarrass Donald Trump, and George Soros paid for it all while with Killary Clinton god rid of all the witnesses ... plans within plans.
*grabs popcorn* (Score:5, Funny)
Waiting to hear what all the experts who regularly post on such articles have to say about this factual discussion of mRNA vaccines. What excuses will they come up with next?
For the record, I received the J&J vaccine and had to wait three weeks for the 5G signal to kick in before the microchip could start sending back my data. However, I am not, as yet, magnetic. Time will tell. Perhaps the mRNA vaccines react more quickly.
Re:*grabs popcorn* (Score:5, Funny)
I've been told by some dates that I have a magnetic personality, the type that has the poles reversed.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:*grabs popcorn* (Score:5, Funny)
As a Linux user, I got vaccinated just to get the hardware installed. I'm sure someone will come along and write a driver and API stack for the 5G chip and magnets at some point in the future.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't understand some of these idiots. Among things I've encountered:
mRNA vaccines rewrite your DNA. Um, no, as Linus said, they use your ribosomes to produce the spike protein so you can get an immune response against it.
mRNA vaccines are going to sterilize people. Okay, got nothing on that one because it's so stupid with absolutely no evidence.
Bill Gates put Borg nanites or something in the vaccine. (This is the most stupid of all obviously.)
5G produces COVID-19.
It's an alien conspiracy to turn
Re:*grabs popcorn* (Score:5, Funny)
> A COVID-19 vaccination made some nurse magnetic afterwards. (?!?!)
I saw that video, too. In the name of empiricism, I actually held a magnet to the site where I was vaccinated and found... no reaction whatsoever. I feel cheated by not getting Magneto powers. No 5G reception, either. In fact, no wifi sensitivity at all.
Do these crappy ass vaccine chips run Windows? Can we reboot them? I knew I should've filed the papers I wrote out years ago to intervene in the crappy antitrust settlements they offered us... I just wish I'd known more back then and could've requested a guardian ad litem on the basis that the settlement was calculated to create a new antitrust injury against the class.
Re:*grabs popcorn* (Score:5, Funny)
Jokes on you. I'm safe from the J&J vaccine because I'm on AT&T and good luck getting that 5G anywhere.
Re: (Score:3)
My second Moderna shot had me dizzy and feverish for a couple days, but goddamn the digital TV reception is great.
Re: *grabs popcorn* (Score:4, Funny)
Well I got Pfizer this week and are already starting to finally appreciate MS Teams....
Re:*grabs popcorn* (Score:4, Insightful)
Dear god. No, mRNA vaccines do NOT change your DNA in any way.
Please read Linus' response. It explains this in great detail.
It's really nice to have someone... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
It was very nice of the guy to give Linux a much-needed outlet for blowing off some rage.
well put (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Oh there's places that changes people most. Deathbeds, prison, and hospitals. [youtu.be]
In Australia (Score:3)
Re:well put (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't respond to anti-vaxxers to convince them. Their minds are made up, and can not be changed.
You respond because there's other people reading their bullshit, and if you don't counter it those readers may become anti-vaxxers too.
Talking for the bystanders (Score:4, Interesting)
I came in to make the point that jeff4747 ably made.
That reminds me of a story.
My late friend was in Portland as a teenager and by accident and coincidence encountered a pride parade. She also encountered a homophobic preacher and his posse, who screamed that she was going to hell.
She had been raised fundamentalist and was bright. She calmly argued theology while he kept shrieking. He ran out of arguments but never ran out of abuse.
At that point she took a break and looked around and found that a crowd of about sixty people had gathered to watch. As soon as she made eye contact, they cheered for her. To the audience, she had proven herself to be the good guy.
Nice Smackdown (Score:5, Interesting)
Hahaha. The second-best smackdown I've seen, albeit virtual. First place goes to when Buzz Aldrin punched a conspiracy nut about 10 years ago.
Re:Nice Smackdown (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nice Smackdown (Score:5, Informative)
More of this. (Score:5, Interesting)
Good on Linus for saying what needs to be said. And if you have any doubts about vaccines go look at what we'd be dealing with if we didn't have high percentage vaccine uptake, go look at what smallpox did to people, it's horrific.
In the UK over a million people now have long covid, a quarter of those are having breathing difficulties, can't exercise normally, get serious 'brain fog' etc etc (govt published stats). COVID can do serious long term damage to your organs.
Re:More of this. (Score:5, Interesting)
"Long covid" is one of the two things that bother me with the "so long as hospitalization rates stay down, it's okay to let the Delta variant run rampant" notion, since even 1 in 10 mild COVID cases has at least one long-term symptom.
My other - and bigger - issue with the notion is that letting Delta run rampant through a half-vaccinated population, with a mixture of people from fully-unvaccinated to half vaccinated to fully vaccinated, with several different vaccines - is a perfect breeding ground for vaccine evasion. It's like only taking half a dose of antibiotics when you're sick.
And what really bothers me with all this is... even if the UK does the right thing and doesn't let Delta run amok... can we count on other places? Like, for example, Texas's COVID numbers are level-to-rising now. If Delta goes into exponential growth in Texas - again, I'm not sure if their current level of immunity is good enough to prevent that, but if it's not good enough - do we really think we can count on Texas politicians to re-enact COVID restrictions to stop it? I'm sure their reaction would be, "any old or sick person can get vaccinated whenever they want; let it run its course".
But... UK COVID immunity is good, but the US's is even better (only slightly fewer doses per capita, but predominantly Pfizer and to a lesser extent Moderna, while the UK is more evenly split between Pfizer / AstraZeneca). It's yet to be seen whether Delta can hit exponential growth in the US. Personally, I'd wager, "in some states / localities but not others".
Re:More of this. (Score:4, Insightful)
The biggest danger is that COVID will mutate into something as deadly as the other SARS viruses whilst retaining the long symptomless infection period. A whole section of society has gone down a big anti-vaxx rabbit hole, they pose a big problem for the prevention of disease spread, one of the chief lie spreaders like Andrew Wakefield should be in prison > https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Furthermore it should be remembered that NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE LONG TERM EFFECTS ON HEALTH WILL BE! (Had to shout that.).
There are no assurances that the compromised organs are not permanently compromised and will fail at a young age. We may see remaining life spans considerably shortened in many of these long COVID cases.
By the way I just had a young guy on my development team of 10 people die of COVID-19. Yeah, it can kill you quickly too.
If you want to understand the anti-vax movement (Score:3)
Good for him (Score:3)
Engineers should know better.
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/... [rationalwiki.org]
Re:Good for him (Score:5, Informative)
And where is the ‘science’ behind vaccinating people who’ve already had the virus?
The decades of research on immunology.
Long-term immunity depends on a giant list of variables, and none of them can be controlled with a natural infection. As a result, scientists have no idea if someone with a mild case of COVID-19 will generate lasting immunity.
Someone who recovered from a severe case (ie. hospitalized) will probably have long-lasting immunity, but it hasn't been proven yet. If they only had a mild to asymptomatic case, they may not develop a long-lasting immunity. We know it doesn't "stick" with some other diseases in mild-to-asymptomatic cases.
The recommendation to vaccinate people who already had COVID is based on that. The vaccine changes many of those variables to "known values", so scientists have a good idea that you will produce a long-term immunity. And that's also why they only recommend giving only one of the two doses - the natural infection is used as the first dose.
In the long run, it may turn out to not be necessary to get that one-of-two doses in a mild-to-asymptomatic case. We'll find out in a few years when more study can be done. In the meantime, getting that one shot has not been shown to cause harm, and extra doses of other vaccines are known to not be harmful.
So get your fucking shot and stop murdering people with your stupidity.
Anti-vaxxer on a Linux mailing list? (Score:5, Funny)
I would think anyone who loved viruses that much would be on a Windows mailing list!
A lot more than "tens of millions" (Score:5, Insightful)
In 1967, there were 15 million cases of smallpox. The fatality rate is 30%. So figure 4.5 million dead per year, and remember that the world's population is a lot higher now.
The last wild case of smallpox was 1977. It has been gone for 44 years. 44 * 4.5 million is 198 million.
That could be lower if a figure I've seen of 3 million dead per year is right, or higher if scaled to current population. But in any case we are counting in hundreds of millions.
A vaccine program accomplished that.
And Dr. Donald Henderson deserves a statue.
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Any stats of vaccine induced fatalities?
Found the little jaqoff.
You can get the answers easily if you cared but you don't. You just want to smear faeces.
And he did it well (Score:4, Insightful)
Eloquent, accurate and appropriate.
Anti-vaxxers are fanatics that think they have the truth and nobody else does. You know, just like any other type of fanatic. In addition, they spread sickness when there is absolutely no need to and endanger the health and lives of those around them. They have no place in civilized, educated society.
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Thank you for showing what true evil is. We look in the mirror and it looks just like us. Whomever said "might makes right" was thinking of people like you. You're the person every dystopian fiction tells us to watch out for as societies collapse. You're not just for there's no justice in you. No love, compassion, or mercy, only fear. Fear of your own end, as you end others.
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I'm sorry, Google doesn't have an option to translate from Whatthehellareyousmokinglish to English.
Re:the most targeted? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, the part of the virus that the mRNA codes for is the functional part where it attaches to the human host. That part, since it is functional, is relatively invariant. If it mutates, then the virus won't work any more, at least not in human hosts. So they do try to key in on the least variant and most critical feature of the virus. Believe it or not, they are not completely stupid.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Torvalds should stick to kernel development... (Score:5, Informative)
By the way everyone else, mRNA is being used just like your own DNA is in this situation, in the sense that it is making protein
DNA is never used to make a protein.
DNA is transcribed to mRNA, the mRNA is processed, exported from the nucleus, and then mRNA is translated into a protein by ribosomes.
In this case, for the component that is known to cause disease
No, the mRNA vaccines make a prominent protein on the surface of the SARS-COV-2 virus. That protein does not cause disease. It binds to a site on the surface of our cells, allowing the virus to enter the cell.
COVID-19, the disease, is caused by the damage caused when cells burst from SARS-COV-2 replication, and our immune system's response to that damage.
And also, by the way, everyone else, there is a MIT professor with 4 advanced degrees and 50 years of experience that explains the science, including lab research, regarding how this mRNA could get into your own DNA to the point that your offspring could carry it.
RNA can not be converted to DNA without an enzyme called reverse transcriptase. The shot does not include reverse transcriptase, and your body does not produce reverse transcriptase.
Reverse transcriptase is only present in a human when they are battling an infection with certain viruses, which do not include SARS-COV-2. And it is only present in cells that have been infected with those other viruses, and those cells will be dead soon. If you are in this situation, you are already actively sick and feeling symptoms, so you will not be surprised by it. And you will also not be given a COVID vaccine.
Also, you need an enzyme to transport the mRNA into the nucleus of the cell if you are going to convert it to DNA that lasts more than an hour or two - we have proteins that will destroy DNA that is not in the nucleus. There is no such protein in the mRNA vaccines. And just like reverse transcriptase, there is no such protein naturally in a human.
Also, Linus Pauling was a brilliant chemist with a very long career and was utterly and completely wrong about vitamin C. Ben Carson was a brilliant neurosurgeon who thought the pyramids of Egypt were used to store grain. A resume is no guarantee that someone is correct.
But that resume does make it way easier to fool "normal" people with jargon.
You people that think vaccines are safe and effective have to wake up
You have very little understanding of the subject, as demonstrated by the numerous basic errors in your post. You need to wake up to your case of Dunning-Kruger.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'll answer your first question, even though you are a fucking idiot, that could be why you are afraid of vaccines.
The mRNA vaccines are taking over our own cell machinery to produce the spike protein. Yet somehow the body is supposed to recognize this as a foreign protein and not one of our own. What is the secret sauce that vaccine developers are adding to make this happen
Your body recognizes foreign from native by a mechanism called clonal selection. I'll explain it, but give me a second to figure out how to dumb the process down to someone with an IQ of a toaster:
1. Immune cells are individually created to react to a specific random protein structure. Basically among all the cells, most combinations of protein structure are represented. Each cell that is born
Re:mRNA vaccines are scary for a reason (Score:5, Informative)
If the body already creates immune cells to all possible proteins through random chance and only the ones which wont target yourself are let out of Thymus than that would say we already have immune cells to all antigens and no vaccines are needed.
Yes, we do have immune cells to all (actually many, not all .. but close enough) antigens. The problem is that when you are first infected by a virus, there are very few immune cells to attack those antigens. Those immune cells when they recognize an antigen, have to immediately start duplicating themselves. This is called "clonal expansion." But it takes too long. The immune system can take about two weeks to fully ramp up enough cells to mount a defense. By that time the virus could have won the battle. A vaccine works by showing those virus proteins early so that the clonal expansion of cells that fight the virus has enough time to occur. Following clonal expansion, in many cases "memory cells" are created that can rapidly expand and mount a defense even years later.
Secondly if the body never attacks its own cells what do you call auto immune disorders ?
News flash not everyone has a perfect immune system. No need to be pedantic, I was talking about what happens in a normal person. Some people are born with broken immune systems or they have gotten disease or environmental factor (anything from an insect bite to a chemical) that screwed up the immune system. Injecting an antigen is more likely to cause autoimmune problems than mRNA. How can you make a false statement like "there is no chance of that happening if we inject the spike protein instead of trying to create it inside the body," when you literally have studied nothing about the immune system? An injected foreign antigen is far more likely to cause autoimmune conditions than mRNA. Ever heard of allergies? Guillain-Barre syndrome? And by the way, people were getting diabetes and other autoimmune conditions long before mRNA vaccines appeared on the scene.
If you don't like foreign mRNA in your system .. what do you think the virus brings with it? Cake? It brings not only the spike protein, but a whole set of genes some of which whole purpose to F up the immune system (the virus has some interesting immune evasion genes.)
Once the mRNA decays away do these cells go back to normal or are they changed in some way so that the antibodies will take out these cells?
Yes they do. Which can't be said of cells that got infected with the actual virus.
Re:mRNA vaccines are scary for a reason (Score:5, Interesting)
Will you at least acknowledge that injecting a weakened version of the virus leads to creating antibodies to not just the s Protein but also the p protein from the protein coat
Yes, THAT part might be true. That isn't related to anything you were saying previously.
and thus vaccines made from whole virus are better at fighting variants (as they are not hyperfocused on one version of the s protein).
Possibly true but still debatable. I don't want to get into it. Pretty sure it'll be a waste of time to discuss.
Also if injecting the spike protein can cause autoimmune disorder as you say so can spike protein built from the mRNA taking over cell machinery. Basically the spike protein vaccines have one step less to go wrong. Anything that can go wrong with Novavax can also go wrong with mRNA vaccines.
No. That is false. One reason is that the mechanism of recognizing a floating antigen is different than the one that occurs when the antigen is presented on a cell surface via a protein called MHC I. When the spike protein is created inside a cell it gets cut up and then displayed on the surface of the cell in a manner by which certain cells called CD8+ T-cells can recognize it as infected. Novavax mechanism ends up relying more on MHC II presentation unlike the mRNA vaccine which can better utilize both MHC I and MHC II. In addition, the spike protein injected with Novavax includes a called saponin-based adjuvant called Matrix-M. Adjuvants are required with any protein vaccine, because the immune system may ignore it otherwise. The adjuvant tells the immune system "wake up, something bad is in the vicinity." In my opinion, that too could have a negligible yet technically slightly higher risk of triggering autoimmunity than the mRNA vaccines. This is definiely true and documented for the older adjuvants but I don't know about Matrix M.
Basically, the mRNA vaccines are better at provoking both a CD8 and CD4 response, whereas the protein subunit vaccine will produce a weak CD8 response and with a decent CD4 response.
By the way Novavax is safe too, I am only saying the mRNA is slightly better .. but they are both great.
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"The mRNA vaccines are taking over our own cell machinery to produce the spike protein." = how positive-strand RNA viruses, including the COVID-19 virus SARS-CoV-2, work
"Yet somehow the body is supposed to recognize this as a foreign protein and not one of our own." = how the immune system fights viruses
"Secret sauce?" Read the list of ingredients.
The mRNA vaccines are a piece of the virus modified to be less inflammatory in a tiny lipid droplet.
One everyday thing, one remarkable one (Score:3)
>Yet somehow the body is supposed to recognize this as a foreign protein and not one of our own.
The quick answer is that our immune system responds when viruses turn our cells into factories for foreign substances. Coming out of a cell is not enough to put something on a whitelist. The immune response to mRNA producing spike protein is just like what it's evolved to do for viruses.
But wait, there's more!
There's one utterly brilliant thing about the mRNA vaccines. And it is a difference from the everyday
Re:Anti-intellectuals are everywhere (Score:5, Insightful)
This is new research doesn't counter the fact that the mRNA injected by the vaccine is miniscule amounts and very short half life compared to all the other mRNA already in your cells doing normal things.
Following the science does not mean chasing every new discovery and making it out to be a new, completely dominant effect.
Re: (Score:3)
Just published research indicates that yes, RNA does get incorporated into DNA
It's always amusing when people don't actually read the papers they cite. For example, the paper never actually showed any "incorporation".
Your paper found that if you manipulate a polymerase in an environment that is not present in human cells, you can get it to act like reverse transcriptase.
Now, some folks might notice that "in an environment that is not present in human cells" bit, and realize that it's not going to work in a human cell. Because getting it to those conditions requires destroying the c
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See Stephanie Seneff for a plausible pathway for mRNA to your DNA
And if she was a biologist instead of a computer scientist, she'd know why her pathway is not actually possible.
You can't make DNA from RNA without reverse transcriptase, which isn't present in a human cell or in the vaccine. You can't get RNA or DNA into a nucleus without a protein mediating that, and there is no such protein in a human cell or in the vaccine - we only have ones that export RNA from the nucleus. The mRNA from the shot does not enter any cells that are far from the injection site, and you
Re: (Score:3)
This isn't about Linus's opinion on vaccines, it's about his very efficient smackdown of an idiot trying to pollute an important technical mailing list with political bullshit. The story here is that the Linux kernel list is for discussing the Linux kernel.
The thread was actually about organizing the 2021 Linux kernel summit event, given restrictions on travel and large events that vary between US states. From that topic, it is a very small step to politics.