Sale of Coal and Wet Wood Restricted in England (bbc.com) 109
Curbs on the sale of house coal and wet wood for household burning in England have come into force under new rules aimed at cutting air pollution. From a report: People will still be able to use stoves and open fires but they will need to burn cleaner alternatives. These are the first restrictions on what people can burn in their homes since the clean air acts of the 1950s. The UK's air is far cleaner now, but in recent years pollution from log burners has increased dramatically. Only 8% of households use them, but they are now the biggest source of the tiny pollution particles that are most damaging to health, according to government data. It shows domestic wood burning in both closed stoves and open fires was responsible for 38% of pollution particles under 2.5 microns in size, three times more than road traffic. These tiny particles can enter the bloodstream and lodge in lungs and other organs, the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) warns, and have been identified by the World Health Organization as the most serious air pollutant for human health.
Makes sense (Score:2)
They should have been burning peat all along.
Re:Makes sense (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know about Pete, but they've been burning Guy.
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We're past peak peat.
'wet' wood (Score:3)
They're not phasing out fireplaces, just restricting the definition of burnables.
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Re: 'wet' wood (Score:5, Funny)
If you don't know what you're doing and you buy some from a dude who chopped up a fallen tree limb and sold it to you for beer money.
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Re: 'wet' wood (Score:5, Interesting)
Sadly, this has very much the ring of truth about it.
Kiln dried or seasoned wood over here in the UK is expensive. Very expensive.
10 small logs can cost upwards of $8 - it is absolutely a 'middle class' thing in a good percentage of use cases.
I've got a small wood burner, it looks great in my lounge and I tend to use it on weekends in winter.
It takes the edge of on really cold nights - which for where I live in the UK, rarely dips below 14F (-10c).
Do I need it? Heck, no, I've got underfloor central heating and a reasonably efficient insulated home.
But it also serves as a backup if the power goes down - so, as far as I'm concerned, it's a good investment.
So, because of the expense of wood with a low moisture content, people obviously try to cut corners.
It isn't so much "wood for beer money", as family/friends/contacts who are or know a land owner that manages woodland.
Our neighbours son, for instance, works for the council - and he supplies the neighbour with wood.
It is dry enough, but absolutely doesn't meet regulations for seasoned - you can smell it doesn't, when it burns.
Another neighbour probably has a log fire twice a year, which amuses me no end, because he clearly hasn't grasped the concept that wet wood produces little heat and a lot of smoke. It's always obvious, as it looks like his chimney is on fire and you can smell it half way down the street.
Sadly, however, there are still many who cannot afford central heating and rely on wood they can get for free. It'll be foraged from forests. Many of them know what they are doing, having done it for years. They are in no position to be able to afford to do otherwise.
Quite how the government in this country intends to enforce these regulations, is beyond me.
The only thing they can do is to ban the sale of wood that doesn't meet standards.
But they can't ban people from keeping wood that doesn't - and they would have to catch them burning it.
What are they going to do, have detector vans driving around and go door knocking to issue fines?
Re: 'wet' wood (Score:5, Insightful)
Do what normal people do, season the wood before burning. I have 3 different wood piles that are in a constant rotation
There's the wood I have collected this year, fresh and green.
There's wood that I collected last year, which I can burn, but only if I run out of..
The wood I collected 2 years ago.
Granted, this takes up a bit of space, but not as much as you might think
I only burn on the nasty evenings in winter, so I only need about a cord per year.
I'm always keeping my eyes open for people trimming trees, and frequently help for a few minutes if it means I get free wood.
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Granted, this takes up a bit of space, but not as much as you might think
Some perspective from a UK point of view. I had to look up cord, but for reference for others, it's just over 3,500 litres. If you're storing up to 3 cords, that's around 10,000 litres. That's an enormous volume of stuff to keep about a UK house.
With an average garden size of 188 square metres [ons.gov.uk], the average person would have to dedicate over 5% of their land to the stacking and storing of wood - and that's just for "the nasty evenings in winter"!
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With an average garden size of 188 square metres, the average person would have to dedicate over 5% of their land to the stacking and storing of wood - and that's just for "the nasty evenings in winter"!
Only 5%? New houses in the UK have gardens so small that they are nearly filled up by a small shed.
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Definitely true. New houses are typically a minimum of 100 sq.m with 1-2 bed homes being as small as 50 sq.m (reference) [essexdesignguide.co.uk]. This is considerably below the ONS average size I quoted above. Admittedly though, new houses aren't built with chimneys so storage of wood is unlikely to be an issue!
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One of the reasons many will just buy a small sack of wood from a garage forecourt rather than keep a store and rotate stock. The ruling is intended to make sure that these handy bags of wood are dried before sale. There are many people with log burners who as stated have never paid for wood. Not just woodland scavengers, but also people who live on river sides or even facing a beach know that a good storm or tide is time to take the wheelbarrow out with a saw and get some winter fuel.
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I'm not sure why you converted a cord into litres. It is much easier to describe a cord by its actual measurements of 4ft x 4ft x 8ft (or ~1.2m x 1.2m x 2.4m). There is also such a thing as "Face Cord" which is 4ft x 8ft x 16inch. A face cord is more likely to be used when buying pre-cut firewood since 16 inches is a nice size to fit most stoves and fireplaces (although still kind of on the short end).
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I'm not sure why you converted a cord into litres
Because it's a volume and I don't understand imperial units. Volumes are measured in litres (at least for me), and this can immediately be converted to other units in my head e.g. 3500 litres is 3.5 cubic metres = 3.5m x 1m x 1m. I'm sure you're very familiar with all your imperial units - just don't expect those outside the USA to keep up!
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For me it isn't really a matter of metric vs imperial measures (you will notice that I gave both). It is just easier to visualize the space requirement of a volume when shown in dimensions (for me at least) It isn't readily apparent to me what a volume of 3600 liters is but I can much easier visualize how much space something that is 1.2m x 1.2m x 2.4m is.
FYI I am actually from outside the US (Canada for the record) but since I am of a certain age I intermix imperial and metric measurements depending on wha
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I'm afraid you've both done this entirely wrong. The known and well acknowledged standard for measure the volume of something on ./ is the Library of Congress. Now I admit to being a little confused myself about the specifics of converting a volume of wood directly into some measure of a Library of Congress. I'm sure it'll be easier though if we first convert the wood units into some number of ducks.
Re: 'wet' wood (Score:2)
Library of Congress is a unit of data (like a megabyte)
You must be new here !
Re: 'wet' wood (Score:2)
I believe the measurement you want is:
0.00000227959748 Royal Albert Halls
Or something like that
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In this context, the phrase is "keep down", as in, "I try to keep down my vomit".
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I'm astonished at the idea of a house with 190sq.m of garden. My current one is under a quarter that size.
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Yes, you know what you are doing.
These log burners in the UK are a middle-class affectation - you've got your 'forever home', you've got the AGA and fancy kitchen, next up: stick a log burner in the unused fireplace. You don't know how to use it, or how to season wood, or anything like that. You buy the wood from B&Q or Homebase or online, and just use it without thinking. So the regulation is to force these sales to be more suitable dry seasoned wood.
These houses are often in suburban areas, so there a
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We'd only cut dead or dying trees when growing up so having something green was relatively rare.
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It was my grandfather's ranch :-)
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So, I tend to go through about 400 small logs a year, which isn't a lot. Just storing that is difficult for me.
To go down the route you are, would require space for, I guess, triple that.
I'm not sure where you live, but getting that much wood where I am, for free, isn't trivial - and I'd be constantly worried about the state of my small wood burner and the flue tarring up.
My neighbour seeks out waste processed wood - old pallets mostly. He doesn't seem picky about what he burns.
I do wonder whether he knows
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I think it's going to vary a lot by neighbourhood and type of house. A lot of houses in London now have wood burners for fashion more than necessity, go take a look at houses for sale in Walthamstow and see how long it takes you to find one proudly displaying a wood burner as a lifestyle accessory in an £800k house. If you whack wet wood in one of these you're going to be polluting the air for hundreds of people living nearby. In a dense urban area it's obvious when someone is burning poor quality fue
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They will set up "snitch" hotlines for folks to denounce their neighbours - very popular sport in some parts of the country and especially among the middle classes.
OK I'm trolling, I know it, I'm truly sorry and I promise definately not to do it again.
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he [neigbour] clearly hasn't grasped the concept that wet wood produces little heat and a lot of smoke. It's always obvious, as it looks like his chimney is on fire and you can smell it half way down the street.
It depends on how skilled you are at managing fires. I burn wood prunings and windfall from my own property which is large and semi-woodland. I generally burn wood from the the previous year, kept in a greenhouse. But I was caught short one year and found I could burn green wood by first drying it by stacking in the fireplace just after the previous night's fire was out. Also by stacking it within the stove by the side of the burning fire to drive the steam out before moving it into the fire.
Sadly, however, there are still many who cannot afford central heating and rely on wood they can get for free. It'll be foraged from forests.
There are for
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Kiln dried or seasoned wood over here in the UK is expensive. Very expensive. 10 small logs can cost upwards of $8 - it is absolutely a 'middle class' thing in a good percentage of use cases.
That's the price at the big box store, which is probably the worst place to buy it. I'm going through 6 to 8 cubic meters of wood through the year as I'm using a wood cooking stove through the winter and on cold spring/autumn days. The cost of properly seasoned wood around me (North-East France) is €40 per cubic meter, sawn to 33cm, delivered and stacked. It is cheaper in 1m sizes, and even cheaper unseasoned. I'm also collecting and drying wood from my property, so I'm thinking about setting up a sola
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That's the price at the big box store, which is probably the worst place to buy it. I'm going through 6 to 8 cubic meters of wood through the year as I'm using a wood cooking stove through the winter and on cold spring/autumn days. The cost of properly seasoned wood around me (North-East France) is €40 per cubic meter
That's nice but that's the price in France, not the UK.
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After checking with my relatives in Essex, properly seasoned wood is between 135 and 145 a load (1.6 cubic meter). This is higher than normal, there's a bit of a shortage right now.
My original point is still valid, the big box store (or the fuel station) are the worst place to buy wood short of an emergency... especially in 25dm3 bags for $8 a piece. That's effectively paying $320 per m3.
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Or you can do what I did, get a real flame manual gas fire. I get the "look" and being manual unlike a fancy one with remote control etc. I can start it in the event of a power cut.
Unlike Texas, the gas network is heavily regulated in the UK. I have never in my life known the gas to be off unless it was pre-planned works. Unlike the electricity which seems to go off all the time these days.
Further points to note, a wood/coal burner in your house is a horrendous health hazard. They are also responsible for 2
Re: 'wet' wood (Score:1)
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Its concerning to me that coming restrictions on wood, coal and natural gas will hurt lower income people the most.
Not in the UK. Gas is the cheapest form of heating here.
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(Hint - at least one person in this conversation has spent decades exploring for new gas and oil resources, including in the UK, onshore and offshore.)
Actually, the gas probably won't "run out" meaningfully before the price rises. It's much more likely that the Norwegians and Russians will hike their prices long before either is running short.
I appreciate the convenience of gas, but I don't for one second believe that it is going to remain a cheap fuel.
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Just a second while I check the Capitalism 1.0.1. primer.
Oh, absolutely we will. You see, as you say yourself, these people are poor, and being mistreated because you are poor is absolutely top of the to-do list for Capitalism. It's got nothing to do with climate change. It is all about keeping the poor in their place through fear and intimidation. That's why we pay our police and army relatively well - to keep the poor in their place.
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Thanks for the info. But there are relatively hardly any trees left in Britain. It seems like burning wood is not ever going to be a great idea for you there. I'd like to see the forests return... maybe one day.
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Wet wood is fine if you stack it behind the house, cover with a tarp, and let it dry. If wet wood doesn't produce good heat and introduces additional maintenance costs from having to clean the chimney more often, then maybe it's the wet wood that is more expensive in the long run?
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Depends on the tree. There are several kinds of trees where wet wood is more energetic than dry wood due to wood gasses still being present in the wood.
Re:'wet' wood (Score:4, Insightful)
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They don't sell wood or coal-burning AGAs any more.
You want a solid-fuel Rayburn for that.
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Lol. I do get the impression there is too many pretentious acts in England. The whole snobbery thing just needs to die off. Maybe the internet will reduce that aspect of the culture a little somehow. Maybe. I hope.
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Many people buy wet (green) wood, stack it and let it dry. Just make sure you buy it by volume and not weight.
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People don't BUY wood, they get it themselves. Cutting a tree is relatively cheap and a relatively large tree or two can heat a home for the year.
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Wood fires, wet or dry, are extremely bad for the community as it increases air pollution and thus an increase in asthma and other respiratory conditions. Especially if you're in a region that has oten has an inversion layer that keeps all the smoke trapped. Wood burning when rural isn't so bad, but in a city it's a terrible idea just for health reasons.
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Why would you burn wet wood?
Because a lot of it is sold that way, in the UK at least. Even if the wood is seasoned, it can get wet in storage. Many wood-selling business are just small places like farms with their wood stack covered with a scrap of canvas.
Other toxic burning (Score:2)
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Indeed. One part of the problem is the cute black iron log burners that have become a symbol of middle-class middle-age comfort, installed into old fireplaces (and cabins), so people can still burn something for warmth whilst pretending they live in a hovel or Victorian England, but without the mess of coal. AGA in the kitchen, log burner in the living room.
So this is sensible - restrict the sale of the materials that burn messily - and the people with these burners can afford to pay a little more.
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Already restricted in Bay Area (Score:2)
Burning logs in a home fire place is forbidden on certain dates. Coincidentally, you can't burn logs on Christmas and New Year eves.
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If you have a home. Homeless? It's all OK [flickr.com].
Yes, but it's carbon-neutral (Score:2)
The thing about wood-burning stoves is that they're carbon-neutral. Just about anything else that would replace them - natural gas, oil, etc... contributes to global climate change.
Yes, we know that wood-burning pollution creates respiratory illnesses, which place you at increased risk of death should you catch Covid, but don't you think it's worth it, UK, to lower your carbon footprint? I mean, what's a little breathing problem when we have a planet to save?
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Wood is hard to tax.
Most wood being burned in the UK is bought, so it can be and is taxed like anything else, via VAT. I get enough wood to burn from my own property, which is highly unusual in the UK. Obviously I pay nothing.
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Well you aren't exactly paying nothing for your wood either. Unless it magically cut and splits itself you are spending money on fuel for a chainsaw and possibly a splitter. If you are doing it completely by hand (hand saw and/or axe) you will probably need to eat more than you would if you didn't expend the energy to cut the wood. Both fuel for the chainsaw and food for yourself will need to be purchased. These purchases are also subject to VAT so technically your wood is also being taxed by the government
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Well you aren't exactly paying nothing for your wood either. Unless it magically cut and splits itself you are spending money on fuel for a chainsaw and possibly a splitter. If you are doing it completely by hand (hand saw and/or axe) you will probably need to eat more than you would if you didn't expend the energy to cut the wood. Both fuel for the chainsaw and food for yourself will need to be purchased. These purchases are also subject to VAT so technically your wood is also being taxed by the government.
8^)
No, technically it's not. He didn't pay for his wood. All the other stuff you mentioned is in addition to the case where the wood is taxed, therefore not part of this. To the point you don't say you're paying a wood tax on fuel when that fuel is never used to cut wood. Can't be, never happened. Therefore, it's not a wood tax and you're wrong. So there.
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Wood sold as heating fuel is taxed at 5%, whereas wood sold for construction etc is taxed at 20%.
Re: Yes, but it's carbon-neutral (Score:2)
The particulates released also contribute to global cooling.
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The thing about wood-burning stoves is that they're carbon-neutral. Just about anything else that would replace them - natural gas, oil, etc... contributes to global climate change.
Or you could burn the wood in a power station which is (a) carbon neutral, (b) not a health hazard and (c) much efficient than a wood stove.
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Wood does not burn hot enough to for electricity. Denmark does it extensively, with appalling efficiency, but at least the "waste" heat is used in district heating. The pitiful amounts of electricity produced that way aren't worth the investments in the turbines.
As a bonus, some of the wood burned is wood chips from Baltic forests, dried using natural gas. If that gas was not wasted on drying wood, it would produce almost the amount of electricity that the Danish power plants make from the dried wood.
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I get your point, but are there any wood burning power stations?
Drax burns a mix of coal, wood and agricultural waste.
I mean it's not a great power source, TBF. It's also a horrendously inefficient way of heating (most heat goes up the flue) and dreadfully polluting. At least you get better efficiency and little pollution if it's burned in a large facility.
Wood burning seems like a pretty good local energy source that should be... well, not encouraged (again we don't want industrial level fire wood generati
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The thing about wood-burning stoves is that they're carbon-neutral.
Only if you have new trees growing wood as fast as you are burning it. There are plenty of places where that is not likely to happen.
Restrict the sale of wet wood? (Score:2)
It's bloody Britain. What other kind of wood is there? Or are they going to import American firewood in diesel-belching ships, as they do for the giant Drax power plant?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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I don't know of a ship that belches diesel. They belch diesel fumes.
Anyway ships of that sort (running on fuel oil) are insanely efficient. I worked it out once: it uses less fuel to ship a washing machine from China to the UK by boat than it does to ship if from the store to your house in a delivery van.
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It's almost like wet things can be dried. But surely that doesn't apply to wood, right? I mean it's not like the process of drying wood would have its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Bonfires, anyone? (Score:1)
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It is not clear if this includes bonfires
I bloody hope so. there's some wanker on a nearby allotment who likes his bonfires. It makes the entire park stink.
Re: Bonfires, anyone? (Score:1)
As Farmer Palmer says " Burn some more modor carrrr tyres, then get 'orf moi land!"
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My allotment society bans fires on plots, they will collect the wood themselves, and allow it to dry before burning, a couple of times a year.
Are Their English Coal Rollers? (Score:2)
If there are, they would soak the dry wood before burning it to "own the libs" since putting dangerous particulates into the air where you family can breathe them is the mark of an independent thinking freedom loving person.
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I have a similar idea. It's a show where people who talk on the internet about liberals getting beaten for their political beliefs get dumped into China or Turkey or some other society that actually works like that, and we all get to watch them tortured in prison. I assume all the companies still willing to advertise on Tucker Carlson will be all over it.
Which character will be out?!? Find out this week on “White privilege, Iraq edition”.
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It is illegal and looked down on. Meanwhile, mexican coworker brags that his wife thinks if he doesn't beat her he doesn't love her, and that all Mexicans who are men beat their wives.
Get it through your skull, beating women accepted part of their culture, and more than 2/3 of Muslim cultures too. You can't deny this with any amount of your PC woke bullshit.
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Well what Mexicans (or anyone else for that matter) does in Mexico is largly a Mexican matter, and whatever supernatriral beeing7beeings they chose to worship yjere7or where ever they may be is their business....*snip*
That would be fan-fking-tastic if the USA would actually act that way. Instead we stick our fingers into every countries inner workings to "help" from a position of US superiority and thinking. Often with long-term disastrous results.
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no, the point is they come here and continue the bad parts of their culture, it is very much USA problem.
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Yes, it is hard to deny anecdotal evidence that may or may not be true. No matter how "PC woke" you are.
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Anecdotal you say? Never used a search engine to see studies of abuse of women in hispanic culture such that 10 to 50 percent of women in each country report abuse by their partner? or studies about their rape culture? ditto for many muslim countries.
https://www.prb.org/domesticvi... [prb.org]
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Re: "The Beating of a Liberal" (Score:2)
Nice to see that the Roman idea of "bread and circuses" is very much alive.
We might as well just go all the way and bring back coliseums, with real to-the-death gladiator fights.
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Just toss a liberal celebrity into the ring with a couple of Marines
I served in the Marines. The people I knew while I was in uniform held political views that were about the same as the country as a whole. Officers tend to be Republicans, enlisted Marines tend to be Democrats. Polls confirm this. [fivethirtyeight.com]
The biggest difference between the military and civilians is that military personnel are more like to be apolitical and identify with no party.
Re: "The Beating of a Liberal" (Score:2)
I have a great idea for a TV show. A reporter simply interviews people on the far-right about how they felt about the attempted coup. Then expert psychologists point out the strained facial expressions and other subtle cues that indicate somebody is lying, which much of the far right will do when they try to save face by saying "oh no no no, we don't condone the raid on the Capitol".
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You were masturbating when you came up with this idea, aren't you?