Scientists Propose Another 'Doomsday Vault' -- on the Moon (cbsnews.com) 107
CBS News reports:
Scientists are pulling inspiration from Noah's Ark in a new lunar proposal that they call a "global insurance policy." They hope to send an ark to the moon, filled with 335 million sperm and egg samples, in case a catastrophe happens on Earth. Instead of two of every animal, the solar-powered moon ark would cryogenically store frozen seed, spore, sperm and egg samples from some 6.7 million Earth species. University of Arizona researcher Jekan Thanga and a group of his students proposed the concept in a paper presented during the IEEE Aerospace Conference this week...
Establishing the ark would involve sending the 6.7 million samples to the moon in multiple payloads, then storing them in a vault beneath the surface, where they would be safe. The idea is to store the ark within a network of lava tubes — about 200 of which were discovered beneath the moon's surface in 2013... These tubes have remained untouched for three to four billion years, and scientists suggest they could provide much-needed protection from solar radiation, meteors or temperature changes on the surface. While the moon is not hospitable to humans, its harsh features "make it a great place to store samples that need to stay very cold and undisturbed for hundreds of years at a time," they said.
Based on some "quick, back-of-the-envelope calculations," Thanga said that transporting about 50 samples from each of 6.7 million species — totaling 335 million samples — would take about 250 rocket launches. That's over six times more than it took to build the International Space Station, which required 40 rocket launches. "It's not crazy big," Thanga said. "We were a little bit surprised about that."
The team's proposal for the ark includes solar panels on the moon's surface for electricity, elevator shafts down into the facility and Petri dishes housed in cryogenic preservation modules.
"What amazes me about projects like this is that they make me feel like we are getting closer to becoming a space civilization," said the University of Arizona doctoral student leading the thermal analysis for the project, "and to a not-very-distant future where humankind will have bases on the moon and Mars."
Establishing the ark would involve sending the 6.7 million samples to the moon in multiple payloads, then storing them in a vault beneath the surface, where they would be safe. The idea is to store the ark within a network of lava tubes — about 200 of which were discovered beneath the moon's surface in 2013... These tubes have remained untouched for three to four billion years, and scientists suggest they could provide much-needed protection from solar radiation, meteors or temperature changes on the surface. While the moon is not hospitable to humans, its harsh features "make it a great place to store samples that need to stay very cold and undisturbed for hundreds of years at a time," they said.
Based on some "quick, back-of-the-envelope calculations," Thanga said that transporting about 50 samples from each of 6.7 million species — totaling 335 million samples — would take about 250 rocket launches. That's over six times more than it took to build the International Space Station, which required 40 rocket launches. "It's not crazy big," Thanga said. "We were a little bit surprised about that."
The team's proposal for the ark includes solar panels on the moon's surface for electricity, elevator shafts down into the facility and Petri dishes housed in cryogenic preservation modules.
"What amazes me about projects like this is that they make me feel like we are getting closer to becoming a space civilization," said the University of Arizona doctoral student leading the thermal analysis for the project, "and to a not-very-distant future where humankind will have bases on the moon and Mars."
What for ? (Score:5, Insightful)
What good is this if everyone on earth is wiped out ?
Also, even if 50% of humans are wiped out, the remaining 50% will fight for survival, and will not have the ressources to get all those 250 rocket launches back, than put millions of eggs to culture.
So it is just an useless piece of art, which is fine also.
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Yep, read Expedition to Earth by Arthur C Clarke
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Clarke also used this idea in "3001": The Pico Vault. Where the insane products of man were collected.
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Donald Moffitt's book Genesis Quest touched on a subject like this. Basically, humans had become a type III civilization reaching the point where we where moving planets and building Dyson Swarms. We built a transmitter the size of a solar system and used it to transmit all our knowledge, including our genetic code, to the universe. Where it was picked up by a alien race 50 million years in the future. Using it they resurrected the human race.
I found the concept in this book, and it sequel, to be ve
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I don't think a sperm bank is going to last a billion years.
Re: What for ? (Score:1)
That's not going to stop humanity from beating off for the next billion years.
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Its for the aliens
What do you think they've been doing?? They've got tanks full of floating assholes, surgically removed from every species on the planet (not just cows, but those seem to be their favorite).
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"What do you think they've been doing?? They've got tanks full of floating assholes, surgically removed from every species on the planet (not just cows, but those seem to be their favorite)."
Cows? They abduct rednecks apparently to put instruments up their ass, it's the only reason they travel billions of light-years.
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A billion years from now the sun will expand and engulf the Earth and moon. Any sperm/eggs will be cooks. It would make more sense to house all that potential "life" on Pluto. There it could be safe for trillions of years or until our solar system or galaxy collides with something else and there's the 1 in a billion chance Pluto is hammered.
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Its for the aliens in a billion years after we are all dust and the earth is still a radioactive charcoal like bricket
Still doesn't seem too useful. Basically we would be helping out any theoretical alien species who desire to catalog extinct species across all habitable planets. Not sure I would spend much resources there.
Extinction level events happen. We have had five of these where 60+% of species have died on the planet, with one of those causing about 95% of species to go extinct. At this point the planet has moved on, and new species will fill in as they continue to evolve to their environment. If we have another ex
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Well, we had a little more than 50% of the global population back when we first landed, so there's that.
But, I agree...what's the point of this? It's a huge waste of resources better aimed at more important projects.
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if you extinct all of hte living things, nothing left to resurrect a time capsule.
Better put your resources in avoiding to extinct all of the things.
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Given that we're about to extinct ALL the things, I concur: It's the *only* thing worth doing at all.
Your opinion and completely bullshit one at that. And no, you don't concur. Your comment displays a lack of logic, science and reason. Grow up.
Re: What for ? (Score:3)
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We stuffed up the ark that brought us here maybe we can do a better job next time
According to one group, we're the product of incest so does it matter if we stuff up things again?
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Just what I was thinking... if earth is so destroyed that even the hardened seed vaults on earth didn't survive... where do they think they're going to plant the seeds?
Sure, this makes sense for later, when we leave earth, but that's way down the road, and putting together a seed vault isn't something that takes very long to do, so it's not like we need to "get started now". This can definitely wait, and will be a heck of a lot easier to do down the road. RIght now it's just a fanciful idea.
And if this
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I think part of the idea behind this is that, if we don't start projects like this now, and wait for the future, we are not going to be able to obtain the samples anymore because the species they would come from well be extinct.
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"Just what I was thinking... if earth is so destroyed that even the hardened seed vaults on earth didn't survive... where do they think they're going to plant the seeds?"
The new temperate zone at the poles.
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Just what I was thinking... if earth is so destroyed that even the hardened seed vaults on earth didn't survive... where do they think they're going to plant the seeds?
Sure, this makes sense for later, when we leave earth, but that's way down the road, and putting together a seed vault isn't something that takes very long to do, so it's not like we need to "get started now". This can definitely wait, and will be a heck of a lot easier to do down the road. RIght now it's just a fanciful idea.
And if this is for later in earth's life where the sun is expanding out and wrecking the climate, again you won't be planing there anymore, AND the moon is probably not that safe of a place anymore either. By that point we're not even going to be hanging around SOL anymore.
Think of this as a trial run. We want to do it now while there are still specimens on earth in case it doesn't work. Put the seeds, eggs, sperm, and spores on the moon, then check on them in 5-10 years to see if radiation got into the vault, etc.
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It does seem premature. Kinda like telling a 2 year old they need to start planning for retirement. Civilized humanity is a few thousand years old. If we are already on the downward spiral, is it really worth saving? On the other hand, if we are going to last millions of years, then what's the rush?
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"What good is this if everyone on earth is wiped out ?"
The mole-people will evolve or the cockroach-people.
...for the Irony? (Score:2)
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You got it exactly right. This isn't science it's artistic. Let it be judged as a proposed work of art.
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My thoughts exactly; however, I do have one caveat. It would make for an interesting archeological find if another space faring race runs across this area before the Sun burns up the moon. The odds are so trivially minor that this situation could happen that honestly, even spending a single penny on it is worthless... but I had to think of alternatives to my (and your) conclusion.
Species definition (Score:2)
(If you can breed with them, are they really another species...)
Yup, indeed, as you point out: Being able to breed and produce fertile offsprings is part of the literal definition of species.
(so donkey and horses don't count, as hinnies and mules aren't fertile).
Fun fact: the definition further requires these breeding to happen in the wild.
(thus ligers and the like don't count. As cross-breeding between lion, tiger and other big cats only happens in captivity).
Now, if you think about it, the funny thing is, with their insistence on refusing to breed with any outsider an
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white supremacists are actually a different specie than the rest of humanity
It's an interesting thought, and worth a +1 Funny - but I doubt it's strictly speaking true. White supremacists (and other extremist groups) can and do breed with other humans. They have a general preference, but not a biological barrier (like horses) or seperate habitats (like lions and tigers).
More definitions (Score:2)
They have a general preference, but not a biological barrier (like horses) or seperate habitats (like lions and tigers).
To be exhaustive based on official definition your list should also include "separate behaviour patterns".
Look-up sympatric speciation [wikipedia.org].
e.g.: animals living in the same geographic region (unlike lions and tigers) end up in separate subpopulation based on feeding patterns, because pattern would select for a different type of beak better suited for that food source (a big strong beak to crack nuts, or a thin long one to extract nectars from flowers), and intermediate individual would be outcompeted by individu
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To be exhaustive based on official definition your list should also include "separate behaviour patterns".
Correct, forgot that.
Well, as long as people occasionally post something like "omg, Adolf is a Nazi! I'd have never thought! We've been playing soccer together for years!" on the Internet, that also doesn't apply.
But I get the joke and it's a really cute idea to think about it like that, and it has just the right amount of truth to it to be both funny and insightful.
Thermal analysis nice, practicality would be nicer (Score:1)
It's nice that the specimens could be nicely preserved. Has anybody looked at the transportation costs for this noble gesture to the future? How long might it take to get the required samples together? Once gathered what would it cost to get them there in a nicely preserved state with a transportation link that is finicky about weight and takes a week or so to get there?
There are too many questions here to suit me.
{^_^}
Pr0n revenue alone could finance the 2x 250 rocket (Score:2)
Imagine having to force 3 million different species to jerk off at the same time.
Pr0n revenue alone could finance the 2x 250 rockets to the moon.
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I'm a lot more concerned with the battered and cratered surface conditions on the Moon. The Moon lacks an atmosphere to slow or stop incoming impacts. Without a permanent human presence on the moon already this seems like a bad idea. At least with a permanent human presence the costs could be reduced since storage facilities could be incorporated into some kind of other scientific facilities and transportation could be worked into existing launches.
If there's a real desire to store the makings of Earth o
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"I wouldn't mind if humanity were to establish a crewed presence at that orbit."
Glad to know you wouldn't mind. BTW, who's paying for that? How much will that cost? Will there be new taxes or will some current programs be cut?
Good idea, however there are prerequisites: (Score:2)
2. It would have to be deep underground on the Moon to protect it from radiation.
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2. It would have to be deep underground on the Moon to protect it from radiation.
From the summary:
Establishing the ark would involve sending the 6.7 million samples to the moon in multiple payloads, then storing them in a vault beneath the surface, where they would be safe. The idea is to store the ark within a network of lava tubes — about 200 of which were discovered beneath the moon's surface in 2013... These tubes have remained untouched for three to four billion years, and scientists suggest they could provide much-needed protection from solar radiation, meteors or temperature changes on the surface. While the moon is not hospitable to humans, its harsh features "make it a great place to store samples that need to stay very cold and undisturbed for hundreds of years at a time," they said.
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3. Solar panels have a finite life - 25 years on Earth I think. Even if you increase this by an order of magnitude, it will not last long enough.
For the access (Score:4, Insightful)
3. Solar panels have a finite life - 25 years on Earth I think. Even if you increase this by an order of magnitude, it will not last long enough.
I know this is /. and nobody usually bother to even read the summary, but: the solar panels are to provide electricity to the elevators accessing the shaft.
The protection against temperature variations (and shielding from radiation, btw) comes from the depth of the lava tubes themselves.
So the solar panels themselves would only need to last for as long it takes to transport the samples down to the lava tubes (or get replaced every now and then as needed during the "filling the tube up" phase of the project).
(And giving the amazing rate of technological development in the rocket industry (see SpaceX as an example), chances are the transport of sample to the Moon could realistically be done inside a 25 years period, as a side project in the margins of a more global attempt at a lunar permanent colony.
That is, if we didn't manage to destroy ourselves before we reach the start of that 25 years period, because we have also an amazing rate on that subject, too).
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I hope that they will put up a monolith at the site, so that we can find it in a million years.
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It would have to be deep underground on the Moon to protect it from radiation.
How deep exactly do you think it would have to be? Really have to ask here. I get the feeling when people write such things that they think it has to be miles deep, or something like that, when the reality is that just ten meters deep is going to reduce the radiation so much that radiation from the lunar rock is going to be a more significant source of radiation than radiation from space.
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If they have to dig very deep, they are going to have to train astronauts to drill. Or, on second thought, it may be easier to train drillers to be astronauts. Additionally, I wonder if they have thought about how the sperm/eggs will cope with space dementia.
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I get that you're making an _Armageddon_ reference. Still, my point was that you do not need to go very deep for radiation protection. Of course, you did make me think about the fact that you might want it to be quite deep for meteorite protection. As far as gamete dementia goes, as long as they don't send along nuclear weapons and machine guns (which are apparently versatile, multi-use tools), then I don't think they need to worry about the gametes going crazy and riding nuclear weapons or shooting up the
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Why not just put the vault on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri? Even safer, and only slightly less unrealistic than this proposal.
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If everyone is dead (Score:1)
Re:If everyone is dead (Score:4, Funny)
The cockroaches, after they evolve a bit.
Re: If everyone is dead (Score:1)
Squirrels, monkeys, crows, wales, molluscs, ... Many candidates.
Though I hope it's European red squirrels. No offense, but American squirrels are assholes.
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The Welshmen are mostly OK though.
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Who's going to the moon to get the seeds?
Haven't you seen all the documentaries? [google.com]
Life finds a way.
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Re: If everyone is dead (Score:1)
To almost all of the brain it is though.
Proof: If you imagine biting into a extra-sour lemon vividly enough, your mouth will water. In anticipation of the imaginary lemon. Also: Wet dreams. Stupid "body" (brain) doesn't know it's not real.
And to the rest... well there's sensory illusions, most of your childhood memories never happened that way because the stupid brain is literally only a bias machine that cannot remember without reprocessing and re-storing with its current bias, the majority of our knowled
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-1 Offtopic
Two words... (Score:2)
Moon Elephants!
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Re: Two words... (Score:1)
We can't do it that quickly though. And they would have to be heavily modified and quite fit.
So teenage mutant ninja turtles.
Also: Teenage mutant lazy elephant.
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Lunar Camels! [youtube.com]
3001: The Final Odyssey (Score:2)
Somebody must have read the book recently and wanted to put the idea into practice.
Whatever the vault will contain, we should definitely add a copy of every computer virus ever written, just in case we need to destroy a monlith.
Re: 3001: The Final Odyssey (Score:1)
Wait, the monolith works like then spaceship from Independence Day too?
Can we also add everything about humans? (Score:1)
Just so nobody accidentially revives our species after we're "done".
The contents of social media, of the Pentagon and of the Vatican should do it. (Just went for the biggest ones. Include the others if you want.)
So I suppose that the premise... (Score:3)
... is that the aliens will have artificial womb technology that we don't? It's also worth mentioning that not all plants reproduce from seed, and most tropical rainforest species' seeds can't be stored (don't tolerate being stored or dried out; the lifecycle most commonly involves immediate germination), so if you wanted to preserve them, you'd be needing to grow them from cryopreserved tissue samples (tissue culture) .
I guess though if you're positing advanced aliens visiting the moon, you should assume no technological barriers...
Technology from Interstellar Travel (Score:3)
... is that the aliens will have artificial womb technology that we don't?
If aliens have made it from another solar system to the moon it's a fair bet their technology is much more advanced than ours is.
Inevitably (Score:5, Funny)
When the first consignment gets to that lava tube, those setting up the storage facility are going to find the storage facility set up by the last Earth civilization!
What we should be checking... (Score:3)
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... is that there isn't already one there.
Imagine if there is. Then we could use it. Of course there would be the "scientists" that would say - hey, wait a minute! How do we know it's not there to wipe us out? There's something on the side of the building that sort of likes like it might say - "Gates Industries." We know Bill is out to kill us all! It's evil! Real scientists could evaluate if it's good or bad. Then there would be the whole suspicion. The Kangaroo, you know that came from that repository. The Naz1s were up there first and brought i
They forgot to mention... (Score:2)
Numerous scientists and Slashdot users were quoted as saying, "I'll be sure to do my part to provide the sperm samples necessary to secure the future of the human race!"
This is laughable. (Score:2)
Totally agree, but... (Score:2)
ideal location (Score:1)
50 individuals per species? (Score:2)
A species that has only 50 individuals is usually placed on an endangered list. Too few individuals in the gene pool to survive.
Welcome to 3 headed or 0 headed individuals in a few generations. There are good evolutionary reasons not to marry your cousin.
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You assume that they came up with that number - 50 - by throwing dice or something.
My guess would be that they had a workshop with people who know a bit about these things, and came up with 50 as a low margin that would work.
Useless in the long term (Score:2)
Gestation (Score:4, Insightful)
But does this proposal include an explanation of how preserved egg and sperm - i.e. from livestock and other animals - will be grown to maturity. If the plan is to artificially inseminate a surviving life form on earth [assuming a compatible one can be found] then this would work.
But failing that doesn't this call for the ready availability of artificial wombs?
Assuming that we had the technology to build artificial wombs for all the species that we wanted to revive, isn't it also the case that even if the "womb" is artificial, we'd need some form of blood or plasma? As the growing embryo develops, it's going to need nutrients and oxygen... That much we know. What I'm far less sure of, however, is how specific the "nutrient solution" would have to be... Would some form of synthetic blood plasma do? How would an embryo get oxygen?
I suppose the idea would be that these problems could be solved by some "future" version of our society... But that's starting to sound a lot like wishful thinking.
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There's also the problem that genetic material from one male and one female is only useful for producing an inbred population, even if you can come up with a womb.
I presume the hope is that aliens with wildly advanced technology can someday make use of the materials, because it would be worthless to us today.
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There's also the problem that genetic material from one male and one female is only useful for producing an inbred population, even if you can come up with a womb.
Which is why they store multiple. Come on, it's even in the summary:
Thanga said that transporting about 50 samples from each of 6.7 million species
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50 isn't enough for many species either.
e.g. humans would require a pool of about 10,000 individuals IIRC
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Just going back to the original scope of the paper - the idea of developing a “seed bank” on the Moon... then if we think about the logistical challenges of delivering this solution and the challenges of developing i.e. artificial wombs for the gestation of mammal embryos, then it almost feels li
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Artificial wombs aren't required. For example, horses and donkeys breed to make mules, lions and tigers to make ligers. So long as a vague relative of the species survives it can be a surrogate mother for a close extinct one.
Off-site backups. (Score:2)
I am generally in favor of off-site backups, but a backup really has no value unless there is a way to keep it current and a way to test its recoverability. After all, who wants to be forced to lose the last 1,000 years of evolution and to top it off, to then learn that it is irrecoverable because the media rotted.
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People think the DNA in egg and sperm are all it takes to make a human. that's as silly as thinking only CD of an operating system is all you need to bring to a dessert island to run Linux. That DNA needs a functioning (nearly) human system in which to have any meaning, it's egg + sperm + reproductive tract of adult female required, and no you cannot build an adult female solely with the information in DNA
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"who wants to be forced to lose the last 1,000 years of evolution"
1000 years is a blip on the evolution radar.
Also our information & culture (Score:2)
We need to also have copies of:
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Hahaha, only choosing recent mediocre English works,
The persons at the station? (Score:1)
Why not Mars? (Score:2)
Distance and Contamination (Score:2)
Why not Mars? if something extreme were to happen to Earth it's also highly likely it might impact the moon...
Not really. The Earth has been through several mass extinction events over the past several hundred million years and the moon has survived them all intact. You would need an impact on a magnitude not seen since the Earth's formation to literally shatter the planet before the moon would be seriously affected and the last time that happened it probably created the moon. The only common event will be the red giant phase of the Sun in several billion years time but it is not clear that Mars will survive that
Plot for my next science fiction book (Score:2)
"We thought humankind had finally been obliterated by the Gamma Ray Burst event of 2098. Rather than the story of a young race taking its first tentative steps into the shallow waters of the infinite cosmos, the future of humanity would be as just another silent system filled with mouldering, mysterious ruins and incomprehensible pieces of space junk drifting endlessly through time.
Our dreams and potential could have rested quietly alongside that of all the other civilizations, great or no, similarly groun
Rediation? (Score:2)
Vonnegut got there first (Score:2)
The Big Space Fuck
https://sensitiveskinmagazine.... [sensitives...gazine.com]
(This story made quite the impression on the nine-year-old me when it was published, back somewhere in the Triassic....)
DNA sequencing (Score:1)
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Let me know when they're ready to start paying their own bills.
And please give the tax payers a break.
Why? The democrats are in charge now and they're spraying money everywhere, except to US Citizens and Veterans (a whole about 9% of the "stimulus" is going to US Citizens. Rest is democrat hog money trough). It's a steal for all and really stupid people still support them.