There's a Curious Effect Urban Trees Might Have On Depression (sciencealert.com) 81
omfglearntoplay shares a report from ScienceAlert: There's already a long list of reasons to like trees, we know. Warding off depression could be the latest entry on that list, based on a study of 9,751 residents in Leipzig, Germany. For a more consistent measure, researchers used antidepressant prescriptions rather than self-reporting to gauge the mental health of communities, and then cross-referenced these statistics with the numbers of street trees in each area. They reported that more local foliage within 100 meters (328 feet) of the home was associated with a reduced likelihood of being prescribed antidepressants -- findings that could be very useful indeed for city planners, health professionals, and governments.
The reduction in antidepressant use linked to street trees was particularly prominent in socioeconomically disadvantaged groups. While it's important not to take such findings too far, the results do hint that urban trees could act as a simple and affordable way of boosting mental health and assist in closing health inequality gaps across society. The research has been published in Scientific Reports.
The reduction in antidepressant use linked to street trees was particularly prominent in socioeconomically disadvantaged groups. While it's important not to take such findings too far, the results do hint that urban trees could act as a simple and affordable way of boosting mental health and assist in closing health inequality gaps across society. The research has been published in Scientific Reports.
Re:Don't make it too green (Score:4, Interesting)
Could also be causality. Maybe happy people care more about their gardens / neighborhood parks and chose to prioritize things like green scapes over other considerations where selecting a domicile, like commute times.
you say that like it's the worst thing ever (Score:2)
I'd rather get hit in the head with a brick than a lot of potential outcomes.
Colon or pancreatic cancer, being betrayed by of a lifelong companion, the death or unrepairable suffering of a child, or listening to rap music.
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No worries [youtube.com].
Re: you say that like it's the worst thing ever (Score:2)
Do you mean Jurassic 5 old school hip hop rap, or Lil Wayne plastic autotune rap?
Or do you throw them all in one pot due to a lack of neurons to differentiate between them?
Re: Don't make it too green (Score:3)
That was my first thought (trees = nicer part of town = more money).
I guess I could read the article, but if they controlled for income the summary is really not doing it justice.
Best to do the study in the US where ability to get antidepressants will also correlate with income.
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I'm actually curious if anti depressant usage is a better measure of depression than self reporting with cultural differences in stigma and financial hurdles too (even with free medical care it takes time).
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Neither are particularly good proxies. People lie to themselves about how happy they are. And it helps.
To pick a particularly depressing example, hope... is generally a lie.
One could ask people to report several times a day how good they feel out of 10. That might be valid.
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More subsidies from poor neighborhoods [strongtowns.org], yes.
Re: Don't make it too green (Score:5, Informative)
Anecodotal evidence:
I live in a low socio-economic area, though my particular situation doesn't fit the area as my income is above the median (though below the average, just) in my country, lucky me.
That said, my suburb has a LOT of parks & trees, water (several ponds in parks and is bounded by the main river of the city) and even the yard of my house has changed (due to my efforts) from white sand and weeds to several mature trees, shrubs, bushes and undergrowth over the last 18 years. And I've added my own pond & fish.
I used to take anti-depressants before I bought here - but don't need them anymore, say doctors.
So, while high socio-econmic areas in my city do indeed tend towards lots of greenery, it's not unknown for the poorer locales to also have trees on the street, in the back and front yards and certainly in the parks. Even the CBD and surrounding areas here have trees.
And, in my experience, yes, greenery helps my mental state.
I'm in Perth, Western Australia.
Re: Don't make it too green (Score:2)
You yourself seem to agree that you are the exception. So your case would vanish in any proper statistics.
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You don't live here, you should shut up.
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I moved from suburban Brisbane to Blackall Range hinterland (near Maleny). Took a big salary hit.
I don't plan on moving again. It's SO beautiful here, I don't care if I have to live in a caravan.
Definitely correlation and affluence. you're right (Score:3)
happy people care more about their gardens / neighborhood parks and chose to prioritize things like green scapes over other considerations where selecting a domicile, like commute times.
Unhappy people don't have time to care about their yard. You're definitely onto something there. It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I am stressed out and having problems at home, I don't give a flying fuck about my lawn or plants. When work is busy, I don't care about greenery. I live in a gentrified former "bad neighborhood." I took up gardening during the pandemic and started noticing the yards in my community. Those with nice greenery, lawns, and decorative or vegetable/fruit gardens fall in
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City people have an interesting perspective. My first thought was very different. More trees means you live farther out of town. Affluence and trees don't correlate out here. For example, a friend of mine was house shopping not long ago and one of his top choices was a farmhouse on 15, mostly wooded, acres ... for 80k.
We're surrounded by trees here, but we have an almost unbelievably low cost of living. $150k/year puts you in the upper echelons of society. A family of 5 making $65k is considered mi
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I have absolutely no idea why anyone would purposefully live in the city and pay a premium for trees. If you want trees, move out to the country. You'll save a fortune and have a better quality of life.
Three reason:
* A daily commute of an hour each direction is an enormous drag on quality of life compared to 15 minutes.
* Having a well paying job in the city compared to a minimum wage job or no job is a also improving the quality of life.
* If you are single or just a couple, living out in the boonies might not give you the social life you hope for.
Having bought an old farm in a small village where the median age was over 50, I can attest that the last point can become a serious problem if you're not the ki
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The first two points just show a serious lack of understanding of rural living. You certainly don't need to drive to a major city every day to have a high-paying job. The pandemic has shown us that that is true for a lot more people than we thought.
On the third point, it is true that there are fewer people and fewer places to meet people. That doesn't mean there are no places to meet people and socialize.
There are plenty of bars and churches, if that's your thing, the usual set of social clubs, a wide
Re: Don't make it too green (Score:2)
Yeah, if you'got crippling loneliness, I prefer a city where I can just walk 500m and find a park or pub full of people at midnight to a rural town where the sidewalks are folded up at 8 PM and I *might* maybe meet another person this week...
(I wonder what autists prefer. Lonely but "unordered" nature, or straiggt streets of nice rectangular boxes but filled with humans. ^^)
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if you'got crippling loneliness [...] pub full of people at midnight to a rural town where the sidewalks are folded up at 8 PM
Why would you be lonely? What do you think rural living is like, anyway? Do you think it's like camping in an 80's sit-com or something?
If you've got sidewalks, you're already in town. If you're looking for people at midnight, go to a bar.
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, I prefer a city where I can just walk 500m and find a park or pub full of people at midnight
And living shoulder to shoulder in a gaggle of people, no silence at any time of the day or night, can't open your windows at night to get free cool air because of lack of silence, oppressive heat in the summer from all the blacktop and concrete with no shade in sight, unable to walk barefooted through grass, can't look at the stars at night, constantly breathing in fumes from vehicles. Sounds like a great place.
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If that's your position ( and that's fine for you), you shouldn't be commenting on other peoples' choices.
I've lived in (grew up in) the city, and I've lived in the country. It's clear to me which environment is better for my peace of mind.
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I'm struggling to find the thread of how this connects to an article about urban trees.
WRT to why I choose to live in a (small) city rather than a suburb or exurb.
1) I actually live in an area with decent greenery
2) I like being able to walk to the supermarket, curated parks (rose garden, some various equipment, grills), super market, neighbors/friends houses, restaurants, bars
3) I like ample places to work within 10 minutes by car
4) I like having a dog park to walk to that always has ample dog friends
I kno
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This is Slashdot, so I didn't read the article. Neither did I didn't read the summary. Because I'm a long-time user, I didn't even bother to read the headline. Consequently, I was not aware that the article was about urban trees.
I was very tired, but I think my issue was with the idea that trees were for the affluent. "there could be a correlation between having trees by / on your property and affluence" in the parent and "trees = nicer part of town = more money" in your post.
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Im not sure what that means, but I think there could be a correlation between having trees by / on your property and affluence. Are these studies correcting for that measure? Could also be causality. Maybe happy people care more about their gardens / neighborhood parks and chose to prioritize things like green scapes over other considerations where selecting a domicile, like commute times.
I never understood the connection, the correlation of 'leafy' to 'affluence' is quite observable but why? It cost nothing to let a tree grow and not cut it down. Why are trees and shrubs more common in more affluent areas? Leaves literally grow on trees, they are hardly a luxury item.
My garden consumes very little time, it mostly takes care of itself. About once a month I'll tidy it up, but this is not something even a minimum wage earner couldn't do. So why do they have so much concrete and dirt instead
Land costs (Score:1)
Few bucks = small property.
The effect that they are noting here, in part, is that wealthier people tend to live in downtown condominiums where the only "trees" get rolled into joints.
Perhaps those with more knowledge of how this society works are more depressed.
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I never understood the connection, the correlation of 'leafy' to 'affluence' is quite observable but why? It cost nothing to let a tree grow and not cut it down. Why are trees and shrubs more common in more affluent areas?
Planting a tree requires thinking ahead, and delayed gratification. This ability contributes to affluence.
Many people live more in the moment, and are less likely to save money, improve their education, or plant a garden.
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Garden? Maybe in the affluent areas they have gardens; blocks of flats (apartment blocks) don't. You can have house plants indoors or on a balcony, and otherwise your greenery is limited to municipal parks and roadside cultivations.
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Garden? Maybe in the affluent areas they have gardens; blocks of flats (apartment blocks) don't.
Why not? They do here. And don't you have both affluent apartments and poor suburban areas? Affluence and apartment living are separate matters.
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It cost nothing to let a tree grow and not cut it down. Why are trees and shrubs more common in more affluent areas? Leaves literally grow on trees, they are hardly a luxury item.
Not really true. Trees take up space, which is a cost factor in urban environment. And the upkeep of a tree in a city adds cost too.
Also you need to consider, that many less well of areas are in undesirable or ugly locations, where development just trying to cramming as many people as possible in the cheapest boxes possible. Or in places that became so desolate, that nobody would want to live there if they can avoid it.
In both cases, there was no effort spent to make the area nicer by - for example adding
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Not really true. Trees take up space, which is a cost factor in urban environment. And the upkeep of a tree in a city adds cost too.
Also you need to consider, that many less well of areas are in undesirable or ugly locations, where development just trying to cramming as many people as possible in the cheapest boxes possible.
It maybe different where you live, but here it's the same local government codes in both wealthy and less desirable suburbs, so it's a not a zoning or regulatory issue. And many working class suburbs are still a proper house on a regular sized block of land, so it's not a space issue.
I really do think it boils down to the ability to think beyond tomorrow or next week, which does have a strong correlation among rich and poor.
Re: Don't make it too green (Score:2)
Because realtors will ask for more money if the neighborhood looks prettier and classier.
And an alameda* always looks classier than a naked street.
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* is that the correct English term for a street with trees on both sides?
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Because realtors will ask for more money if the neighborhood looks prettier and classier.
Sure, but at some point someone has to decide to plant/nurture the plant-life and improve their plot/street. The people that do realise there is wealth to be created, those that don't, don't. Hence the outcome.
Re:Don't make it too green (Score:4, Informative)
Variables previously shown to be correlated with depression were included to adjust for the other influences on depression. Socio-demographic covariates related to depression prevalence included were age, gender, and marital status. Socio-demographic confounders included were employment status, net income, and socioeconomic status (SES). Behavioural factors, such as alcohol consumption and smoking behaviour and body mass index (BMI), were included as all are related to depression prevalence. The season of the year (winter/spring/summer/autumn), when the medication data were collected in the LIFE-Adult-Study, was included as seasonal variation may be related to depression. Dispositional optimism and pessimism were included as a covariate because it is a predictor of depression. -Urban street tree biodiversity and antidepressant prescriptions. [nature.com]
But medium or high socio-economic status was actually anticorrelated with tree density in the sample:
It is important to note that we found no evidence of a luxury effect of biodiversity, in our sample, as median street tree density 100 m was significantly higher for individuals with low SES. -ibid [nature.com]
Note that the effect of the trees on antidepressent use was significant in low SES groups, but marginal overall.
Our analysis found some evidence that higher density of street trees 100 m around the home was associated with fewer antidepressant prescriptions, albeit this was marginally significant after controlling for covariates. In stratified analyses, we found a significant association of higher street tree density on lower antidepressant prescriptions for individuals with low SES. We found no significant effect of street tree species richness on antidepressant prescriptions.-ibid [nature.com]
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I think there could be a correlation between having trees by / on your property and affluence. Are these studies correcting for that measure?
They did adjust for affluence. However, the size of the effect is so small, that if they made one small mistake in their adjustment, or if there is one small confounding factor that they didn't account for, then there is no effect.
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Doctors here in BC have been prescribing sitting under a tree or in other green spaces as a treatment for depression, supposedly with success though I'm not aware of any formal studies. We have evolved to live in green spaces with trees and luckily here, there is lots of parks etc with green spaces.
Re: Don't make it too green - yeah and what about (Score:1)
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Yea, leaves can be a bitch. Mostly conifers here but there are big leaved maples that produce a lot of leaves
Trees and birds? (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a lot of work that's been done correlating visibility, and audibility of birds to mental health.
Essentially, if you see and hear birds in your day, you tend to feel more relaxed. There's a lot of philosophical discussion as to why this may be (we've evolved alongside birds, and they're a great indicator of danger as they see it before we do, and so on), but it's a minor, but statistically significant effect.
Birds prosper when there are a greater number of trees (places to perch and roost in safety, and find food, as trees attract insects).
More trees, and you'll have more birds, so more chance of that effect. If you get that effect by trees alone, then even better!
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I know for myself it's literally looking out on trees that improves my mood... birdsong might be another positive factor, but it's not required for the effect.
I'd also suggest the people linking money and happiness are skipping the step where money gets you better views which helps increase happiness; but it's realistic for everyone to have access to trees, ocean views are harder to come by.
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Yeah, I've always had depression, and it hit just as hard when I was quite affluent as it does now (I'm comfortable, but actually happier doing what I do now for far less cash)..
The thing that I found really helped was building up the local bird population (before I started, there were almost no birds in the area, after a good 5 years of tending them, there are now always loads of birds around, and big broods every year that I do my best to feed, house, and keep healthy.
I also carry a small bag of bird seed
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The thing that I found really helped was building up the local bird population (before I started, there were almost no birds in the area, after a good 5 years of tending them, there are now always loads of birds around, and big broods every year that I do my best to feed, house, and keep healthy.
Do you own a car wash in the area?
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Do you live in the UK? British robins tend to be very comfortable around people, but continental robins tend to be much more wary.
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Sounds like you're living life right.
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I don't know... I mean, I've had a crow screech outside my window every day for a week. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have done anything other than make me want to toss something at said crow. Though, it is not a good idea to harass corvids since they can get revenge. Especially corvids that are known to recognize human faces and communicate it to other corvids in the area.
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Meanwhile, the trees surrounding my rural residence just grow by themselves. Sometimes they fall over in a windstorm. Mostly, I just leave them be. Perhaps the problem is the general higher costs of urban living.
Re: Trees and birds? (Score:2)
Not many birds in city trees
Those trees are usually heavily cut. Leaving way too much insight into the crowd, for birds to feel comfortable (or trees to be healthy, btw.).
I lived on streets with trees and next to a park and next to a forest, and the difference is extreme. :)
Also, a 15 minute circus show of cute squirrels with bushy ears doing acrobatics and stealing eggs each morning gave me much more joy than any "cold" birds ever did.
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Never met any parrots, cockatoos, or corvids, I'll bet.
Not curious, it's the desired effect (Score:2)
Here's a quote from the paper:
"this relationship was marginally significant when confounding factors were considered."
Should be filed under the no-shit-sherlock dept (Score:2)
One corollary from my non-scientific opinion: cities
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Exactly! I understand that we need data and an actual scientific approach to confirm ideas and hypothesises, but sometimes it doesnt take a genius to realize the obvious. Humans have, for millions of years, lived surrounded by greenery and nature. In the last 100 years, this natural backdrop has nearly completely disappeared from our daily lives.
The fact that a scientific paper is needed to confirm this idea is the worrying part.
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You don't have to be a scientist to figure that out - just a parent. Watch for the look in the eyes of city children who visit a rural home - one that's got trees and forests nearby.
How to cure the depression? answer: more money. (Score:1)
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The most important thing is to be male, and the second most important thing is to be employed.
But high socio-economic status was only marginally related.
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Money is the Key.
Why do dumb people feel the urge to make statements like this, with no supporting argument or data. Is he being sarcastic?
Is the prevalence higher in developing nations? Was depression more common 100 years ago when people were much poorer, and less secure, than now?
Re: How to cure the depression? answer: more money (Score:2)
Why hello there, Ferengi-American!
Suburbs/rural versus urban (Score:1)
Trees can work (Score:5, Interesting)
In my inner city Sydney suburb, we had a rather troublesome street. The council noticed it was rather wide, so went to a lot of trouble building a central divider, and populating it with trees and flowers.
It seems to have worked. It certainly feels nicer, and we seem to have somewhat less trouble.
Good work!
Some places just hate trees (Score:2)
Re: Some places just hate trees (Score:2)
The secret is that trees require maintenance.
Streets need to be cleaned a lot more. Dead branches need to be cut before they fall down and mayyyybe in a thousand years hit someone.
Of course if one actually uses one's brain, the leaves and such are not a problem, but fun to walk on, and naturally rot away by themselves. And the branches just require some common sense and not being ignorant of one's surroundings when walking. Just like in a forest.
But insurance and people in a walking daze all day every day a
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That's a shame. I'm in SE Qld and there are local councils here who seem to recognise that trees and greenery in town spaces are a good thing.
When I see people just sitting under a tree in the street, it's a good thing.
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When I see someone just sitting under a tree in the street around here, I wonder what went wrong - New Orleans, where 30C is a cool summer day, and 90% humidity is rather dry....
beauty and trees (Score:2)
To the extent that is an actual effect, it might be not specific to trees but more generally that beauty is uplifting.
There was another much earlier experimental finding that people who live in cities crave trees, but I can't seem to Bing it up right now. I know that when I lived in Manhattan I did.
At any rate, having admired old city and town photos which predate the Dutch Elm disease epidemic in the United States, I am very conscious of the magnificence of a mature tree-lined street. That is a specific
Re: beauty and trees (Score:3)
> to Bing it up
Microsoft Headquarters: WE FOUND SOMEBODY! WE ACTUALLY FOUND SOMEBODY WHO USES THAT PHRASE!! *pops Champaigne bottle cork*
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filter error: don't use so many caps. it's like yelling.
Wait, they just gave people antidepressants?? (Score:2)
Those are highly addictive hard drugs!!
Don't just freakin give them to people if there is any way ro avoid it! Definitely not just for your stupid study!
But I'm already wondering: There are still people living in east Germany?? ;) I thought they had all fled to somewhere else, with all the apartments being empty and there being no jobs amd nothing anymore. How many of them were N@zis? All of them or all of them? ;) (Only Germans will get this. Americans: Just ignore it. :)
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A sarcasm tag would have helped - and I doubt there were any more N@zis in East Germany than there were in West Germany - before the wall went up, a great number of Germans were members of the N@zi party.
Again, your sarcasm was noted.
Re: Wait, they just gave people antidepressants?? (Score:2)
Well, if you are in Germany, and look at the Covid map, you know which regions the N@zis live in.
Yes, it's the super-red ones with the Covid deniers. ^^
Fits with an old German saying: (Score:2)
"Nature knows no boredom. It is an invention of the city dwellers." -- Schopenhauer
post hoc, ergo propter hoc (Score:1)
For a more consistent measure, researchers used antidepressant prescriptions rather than self-reporting to gauge the mental health of communities, and then cross-referenced these statistics with the numbers of street trees in each area. They reported that more local foliage within 100 meters (328 feet) of the home was associated with a reduced likelihood of being prescribed antidepressants.
What flipping pseudo-science.
Perhaps, living in a community with more foliage means you are among the more affluent in an area - leading to a reduction in depression.
For those that either didn't go to law school, study latin, or watch The West Wing, the subject "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" loosely translates to "after this, therefore resulting from it". We have no reason to believe the trees have any influence over the levels of depression, simply by assessing the number of tress in a given area, then count
Correlation does not imply causation (Score:2)
This mantra can't be repeated enough. Just because you have high correlation doesn't mean that it's in any way related and it seems this "research" didn't even consider that. You know what else is directly related to number of trees? Location. It's much more likely that it's the location of the subject that is related to depression, number of trees has nothing to do with it.
Another correlation hypothesis: (Score:2)
Streets with trees are usually where moe well-off people live, as the apartments cost more. And more well-off people can afford things that give them better chances at being mentally healthy.
We should check the available money and the rents in those places.
Trees do not imply affluence (Score:2)
Quite a number of posts assume that an area with more trees is more affluent than an area with less trees, so that the apparent benefits of trees near your home is actually due to better income, which no doubt has some benefits to mental health, when compared to poverty. But I would challenge the assumption that having trees near your home indicates better income. In my particular area of Birmingham, England, there are quite a few mature trees, some in gardens, some in public spaces. I do not consider my ar
This is news????? (Score:2)
Since the dawn of time, many cultures, and their religions, ascribed special properties to trees. In turn, they often advocated a specialized (or ritualized) personal outdoor experience as part of the life of faith.
Urban planning has long embraced the concept of urban forests. What started out as a design asthetic was quickly realized to have other benefits: the presence of trees made people happier. As the middle class grew, the urban forest spread out from the enclaves of the wealthy into m
Correlation? (Score:2)
Anecdotal from me but completely believe it (Score:2)
A prime reason for this was the spectacular turnaround in air quality and environment due the greening of the city during, I believe (could be earlier), primarily the 80s. I came to simply expect this all around me, and I have to say that moving to other cities when I was younger was quite a change. There were alway
Well, let's see, 100 meters you say? (Score:2)
What could trees do within 100 meters?
Green is nicer than brick and concrete: 3/10 - subjective
Fresher air: 4/10 - minimal
Leaves dull traffic sounds: 5/10 - a lot
Reminder of spring, christmas, vacations, and better times: 7/10 - subjective
Leaves dull traffic lights: 8/10 - entirely
Trees are legally protected: 9/10 - can't cut them down, can't run too many power lines.
Birds chirp: 10/10 -- absolutely