America's Covid-19 Deaths Likely to Exceed 9/11's Death Toll Every Day, For Two Months (thehill.com) 387
Just today in America there were 223,365 new Covid-19 cases. The Hill notes that's "the worst it has ever been."
Long-time Slashdot reader smooth wombat also highlights this quote from Robert Redfield, the director of America's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: "We are in the timeframe now that probably for the next 60 to 90 days we're going to have more deaths per day than we had at 9/11 or we had at Pearl Harbor," Redfield said during an event hosted by the Council on Foreign Relations.
In addition, when asked about the vaccines which are being prepared for use, Redfield said, "The reality is the vaccine approval this week's not going to really impact that I think to any degree for the next 60 days." Redfield, echoing a wide range of health experts, urged people to "double down" on basic precautions in the short term until a vaccine is widely available [including wearing a mask but also avoiding indoor gatherings.]
Long-time Slashdot reader smooth wombat also highlights this quote from Robert Redfield, the director of America's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: "We are in the timeframe now that probably for the next 60 to 90 days we're going to have more deaths per day than we had at 9/11 or we had at Pearl Harbor," Redfield said during an event hosted by the Council on Foreign Relations.
In addition, when asked about the vaccines which are being prepared for use, Redfield said, "The reality is the vaccine approval this week's not going to really impact that I think to any degree for the next 60 days." Redfield, echoing a wide range of health experts, urged people to "double down" on basic precautions in the short term until a vaccine is widely available [including wearing a mask but also avoiding indoor gatherings.]
This will be labeled "Fake News" (Score:2)
I'm sure we'll see here on /. how the numbers are inflated - the main accusation being that people, positive for Covid, dying other deaths will be counted as being a Covid death.
I won't predict the reasons, other than to say that I expect them to be paranoid and political and not accepting the fact that this is a deadly disease.
I'm reminded (Score:5, Informative)
It's a Hoax.
And if it's real it's just a little cold.
And if it's not just a little cold it's just the flu.
And if it's not just the flu it just kills the really old
And if it doesn't just kill the really old they must have been really sick.
And on and on and on. The deniers don't just have one type of denial. There's an entire list of them.
I don't blame them per se. There's a professional media apparatus putting these ideas in their heads for profit and because they don't want to extend unemployment and housing benefits.
"Yes" - Why are you using Canadian Data? (Score:3, Informative)
With a broken link when there is US data (which we're talking about) that is easily found: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... [cdc.gov]
So, in answer to your question, according to the CDC the answer is yes there are significantly more deaths in 2020 that can be attributed to Covid - and this report is two months old.
Holy cow (Score:3)
Nearly a quarter million cases a day in the US now.
And not that long ago [slashdot.org] (mid October) it was at "only" 8 million total cases, half what it is today.
Discrete events (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, some states have stupid people who do not believe in the devil science until they are sick and need the hospitals to save them from their maker damning then to enteral hellfire. These states are seeing 10% of the population infected and may see more than 1% die. But overall the thinking people have prevailed and we are unlikely to see deaths surpass even half a percent.
What these numbers miss is that people like all of Trumps lawyers who go out and get purposefully infected put a strain on the rest of us. It is like choosing not to work and expect the taxpayers to fund you welfare checks. Of driving without insurance and expecting others to pay your bills. It is the worst aspect of socialism. Knowing you can be as irresponsible as you wish because the socialists has said doctors have to treat you no matter the danger to themselves or cost to society.
Re: (Score:3)
Now, some states have stupid people who do not believe in the devil science until they are sick and need the hospitals to save them from their maker damning then to enteral hellfire.
Yes, it's quite adorable to see those people calling dismissing or calling science fake, as they use their smartphones (brought to you by science) to tweet their theories on the internet (brought to you by science) while watching television (brought to you by science)....
Re: Discrete events (Score:3)
Everything you mentioned is just magic to these people. This is why democracy cannot work with out significantly improving education standards. I mean quiz these people on what a fourier transform is and ask them how the FFT is used in their daily lives. I bet they cannot give a single example even though this beautiful math is an important part of some of these tech you mentioned. This is one of the reasons a technocracy starts to make more sense...
Re: (Score:2)
The death rates around 2-3% (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, I don't think you know what socialism is. It's a stateless society where ownership of the means of production is held by the citizenry. That's it really. It's got nothing to do with welfare or jobs or anythings else. It's about ownership with the assumption that states form to preserve ownership of the means of production by capitalism.
This is relevant because you're trying to tar socialism with the brush of the COVID deniers irresponsibility. The two are c
Re: (Score:3)
It's a stateless society where ownership of the means of production is held by the citizenry.
Not really, socialism is a whole range of political philosophies with varying degrees of public ownership and various models for it. For example many socialist countries simply regulate private companies more heavily, or require that employees have more of a voice within the company but don't actually own or directly control it.
Also the "means of production" is often things like healthcare, or infrastructure like roads.
Re: (Score:3)
But there is also the issue, as Feynman put it, of simplifying content without lying. So those of us who live that ideal sometimes get pedantic.
One way of doing this is to take Trumps talkin
Corruption and Incompetence (Score:5, Insightful)
As deadly as terrorism, just as bad as war.
Re: (Score:2)
Clearly, it is far, far worse.
Both wars and terrorist acts have explicit political goals and clear, rational, ends. Even when the means to reach those ends are not rational.
If nothing else, at least you know the danger and the enemy and you can fight or avoid it.
Corruption and incompetence are randomized, unguided, products of greed and ego with no clear end or goal in sight - and they spread everywhere and into everything, making everyone partially responsible.
Thus every random act can add to the sum of de
More road deaths. (Score:2)
More people died in road accidents in the USA every month than died in 9/11. (But only if you exclude the orders of magnitude more deaths that resulted from the subsequent war on terror.)
You ain't seen nothing yet (Score:5, Interesting)
Hopefully we can manage to at least vaccinate healthcare workers, but we've dismantled our healthcare system for a fast buck so I'm not entirely sure we can do that. As one pundit put it, we don't have a healthcare system, we have a healthcare industry.
Stay safe. I fully expect rationed care (e.g. "death panels") in January & February. There just won't be enough doctors and nurses to go around.
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Hopefully we can manage to at least vaccinate healthcare workers
Healthcare workers in the US will start being vaccinated within a week.
"Last Wednesday - 2,804"...? (Score:2)
R0 (Score:3, Informative)
Re: R0 (Score:5, Insightful)
China does it really good. Mandatory masks in many areas. Social distancing in others. Quick and rapid development of health codes that track if your path intersected someone infected. Large scale testing of people and produce, and by large scale I mean testing a city with a few million or a city district with a million or more. Vietnam has done it even better. Neither is an island Nation and China's population is huge. You just have to treat this as a war which means people have to be willing to make sacrifices.
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Pedantically, Australia is an island. :-D
But in all seriousness, the problem with the United States was that we let the mouth-breathing idiots who were screaming the loudest dictate the terms of the lockdowns. We should have had a much, much more complete lockdown, and the lockdown should have lasted longer. In California (or at least in northern California), we were seeing the numbers steadily declining. Then our governor decided to listen to the idiots screaming that we needed to open up the economy.
And the worst part is (Score:5, Funny)
there is no one we can bomb for this. Maybe bombing China will make us feel better.
Hurricane? (Score:2)
Didn't Trump invent a cure? (Score:3, Funny)
This many people would not have died of Covid.
Thy might have died of lysol, but lysol is not covid. OK? So the genius invention was ignored and America is paying the price for it.
Re: (Score:2)
It was easier in the old days [smbc-comics.com].
The list is missing D-Day (Score:2)
I'm surprised that in the list of days of significant loss of American lives, including famous battles, D-Day belongs at #13, and above Pearl Harbor (#15), but was omitted.
Long knows that the Foundation’s list isn’t complete, but says that it’s the best figure that we have to date. Of the 4,414 Allied deaths on June 6th, 2,501 were Americans and 1,913 were Allies.
https://www.history.com/news/d... [history.com]
And I'm an Australian!
Um (Score:2)
Shouldn't deadliest days include other pandemics? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
The Spanish flu killed over half a million Americans. Is it included in this count?
You're right, but I think it's meant to illustrate how many of those single-day event deaths are occurring daily, especially given the fact that it's fucking 2020 and we have the experience and knowledge that we should be able to avoid the worst of this, which the US has failed to do (along with a large portion of the world as well).
Re:Shouldn't deadliest days include other pandemic (Score:4, Interesting)
The Spanish flu killed over half a million Americans. Is it included in this count?
You're right, but I think it's meant to illustrate how many of those single-day event deaths are occurring daily, especially given the fact that it's fucking 2020 and we have the experience and knowledge that we should be able to avoid the worst of this, which the US has failed to do (along with a large portion of the world as well).
The US, should have been more prepared. Mask stockpiles, ventilators, everything. Billions were invested over decades. What prevented us from being far more prepared? Same thing that prevented it the world over.
Greed.
And avoiding the worst of this? I wonder how many hours you stopped eating pork when the swine flu infected 50 million and put 250,000+ Americans in the hospital in the first year. I wonder how many times you've joined in with other countries to fight to put an end to the practice of wet markets. Avoid the worst of this? We're fucking welcoming the next one.
Re: (Score:3)
The USA had 1/3 the population in 1918, and half of it was rural. So multiply the current death toil by 3 to get a flavor of the mass daily death a hundred years ago.
This is also why it's rather stupid to start making "deadly" lists based purely on numbers spread throughout history. A higher number today may seem more "deadly", but it's actually very deceptive because the "bigger picture" is basically being dismissed.
This is also the same logic that allows me to happily dismiss "record breaking" music or movie statistics as well. I would more expect a hit artist today to be able to rather easily sell a million records in a world with a few more billion humans in it s
What's the point of the defense budget? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is different (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Funny)
I hope you're not implying that Donald Trump was the mastermind behind 9/11. I mean, sure he had motive, means, and opportunity, but c'mon.
His plan was so he could brag about his building being the tallest again [youtube.com] at the time.
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"Thanks to President Trump's Operation Warp Speed"
Just because he came up with a corny name doesn't mean he had anything else to do with the outcome.
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Government dump money into it and brush aside red tape, same as any government would do.
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Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Interesting)
"...recently released audio of Jared Kushner suggests deferring action on reopening to the governors was a political calculation — a successful reopening could be credited to the President, but any failure would be blamed on the governors instead."
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Funny)
Dear Retrumplicans,
Have you noticed that once you make a godless, amoral, lying, womanizing conman your new messiah, a plague shows up?
Just wondering...
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean like every other country has been having vaccines made before approval? How do you think the UK is rolling out the vaccine already?
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Insightful)
The only approved vaccine is Pfizer's, which was developed with absolutely no money invested by the U.S. government via Operation Warp Speed. The U.S. government agreed to buy 100 million doses if the vaccine was approved, which is virtually C.O.D.
So what credit does Trump deserve for it, exactly? Do tell.
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Operation Warp Speed - first reported on April 29, 2020 and announced on May 15, 2020. [wikipedia.org]
The WHO declared a pandemic on March 11, 2020, this was after the virus was confirmed to be spreading globally. So what was Trump doing for 2 months? Is the fast work of scientists really the result of Trump's great leadership? A competent leader would have, at the very least, planned out a a way of dealing with the virus before it had spread so much as to become a pandemic.
Being two months late to the party is not
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Informative)
Thanks to President Trump's Operation Warp Speed, we now have an approved vaccine for this terrible Chinese virus, within less than a year of it hitting our soil. This is completely unprecedented in the history of vaccine development
FYI, this vaccine wasn't created in under a year. mRNA vaccines have been under development over the last 30 years [sciencedirect.com]. Pfizer started developing mRNA theirs in 2008 [aa.com.tr]. Here's a TED talk from 2013 on the subject. [youtube.com]
Let's be 100% clear on this: Trump and his programs had nothing to do with developing this mRNA vaccine.
Yes we in Europe thank Trump (Score:3)
Thanks to President Trump's Operation Warp Speed
Thanks to the President Trump's Operation Warp Speed a European company was able to secure funding to develop a vaccine, and European countries were able to advanced secure a huge number of doses. Thanks to Trump's art of the deal he didn't buy more than a bare minimum number of vaccines allowing Europeans to get to the front of the line. Thanks to the American Warp Speed the UK became the first country to approve the vaccine and is actively vaccinating people.
Thanks Trump your usual incompetence is (as usu
Re: minor corrections (Score:2)
Whoosh. You replied to a guy who claimed the vaccine outcome is due to Trump's part and that the virus should be blamed on China with a witty nerd joke. Honestly I think the will likely just be confused on how you spelled "said" wrong.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Anonymous cowards are familiar with sed. Also such commands as unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, umount, clear, sleep.
Re:Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Interesting)
Fuck off Chode. You think Trump personally caused Covid? Did no other country outside of USA have Covid? Are no countries outside of USA getting vaccines? Fucking stroke.
Almost no countries outside of the U.S.A. have seen COVID at anywhere near the rate that we have seen it. In cases per capita, we're #10 in the world, and five of the nine that are higher have well under a million people, which means their rates are too noisy to be a reliable statistical indicator of how well they handled the pandemic.
So really, in terms of how badly we screwed up, we're basically #5. In the world. It's not that nobody else has COVID. It's that almost nobody else handled it as badly as we did, and most of the ones that did, did so because they were listening to the idiotic rhetoric that our president was spewing, telling people not to wear masks, that the virus was a hoax, that it would all just magically go away, that we were turning a corner, etc., etc., etc.
Re: Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Insightful)
Japan has something like 50% senior citizens.
Their population is so old it is causing massive issues. But they are barely touched by covid.
Re: Trump is the best President ever (Score:5, Insightful)
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Japan thrives on social responsibility unlike a lot of the west, they wear masks when they have colds.
...the whole point of this discussion is that USA sucks at many things like social responsibility, which resulted in a clown been elected and one of the worst gestion of the pandemic.
Where are you getting at? Japan wouldn't never have elected that idiot.
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Informative)
That is why biden finally had to admit that the only thing he could do is make you do is wear your mask
Mask are not the only thing a president could do. A competent president would have prevented this pandemic in Nov 2019 by leading an international quarantine of Wuhan. Dumbass trump fired the pandemic response team, fired our CDC inspectors stationed in China(really stupid), threw away the pandemic playbook, ignored the pandemic training, and ignored Covid for 5 months. In fact he actively ignored covid because he thought it would hurt Democratic governors.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do people have the memory of a goldfish?
You're forgetting that the WHO, and probably the majority of medical authorities outside east Asia, did NOT recommend masks in March. They had studies which they thought showed that masks had no documented effect on the population level, and many medical authorities instead pushed the Freakonomics-style contrarian take (which had even less evidence) that masks might well do more harm than good since they could give a false sense of security. It was hand washing an
Re: Wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
If what you say is true, why is the USA having such a worse time with COVID than countries with comparable level development and population density?
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
A competent president would have prevented this pandemic in Nov 2019
A competent president would have prevented a pandemic 1 month before any identification of abnormal sickness and 2 months before the pandemic was discovered?
I mean I like to shit on our leaders as much as anyone, but you're setting the bar a bit high there.
Re: (Score:3)
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You said I was setting the bar too high. I said "I do not think I am." I then gave my reasons. The reasons can be reduced to trump actively killed our preventative measures. The game plan was to prevent, and trump threw away the game plan.
And yeah a competitive president would have enacted an international quarantine in nov 2019(which is when we learned there was a novel virus in Wuhan).
Going forward we need to lead internationally on virus prevention measures.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
Wait, we knew about CoVID 19 before the end of December, 2019? Really?
Yes we did. The first national security reports indicating a novel virus were from nov 2019.
We would have known more if trump had not fired our CDC inspectors located in China. Question. If China is untrustworthy(which they are) why would you remove our people from China? Wouldn't we want our own people instead of listening to untrustworthy China?
And you forget the lock-down of China about 4 weeks later - a lockdown roundly criticized as "xenophobic" and "racist"?
It happened on Jan 31(right after putin did it) which is was more than 10 weeks later. And by then it was too late. And why would you care what people said.
Prevention is always going to be better than nothing.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
It wasn't a lockdown anyway, just a prohibition of Chinese people traveling from China. Americans returning were allowed back in, without anything but the most cursory of review. No quarantine, not even a followup to see if they developed illness later.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
why would you remove our people from China?
Because that's what bad CEOs do. Our network hasn't been hacked recently, so why are we wasting money on security? Our building didn't burn down last quarter, do we really need to maintain all these fire extinguishers?
Trump came in promising to cut waste and immediately set about firing essential people whose jobs he didn't understand. It was probably incompetence, at best a gamble that nothing would go wrong in the next 4 years and he would come out looking like a genius. The modus operandi of CEOs everywhere, slash costs and then leave before it all goes pear shaped.
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Interesting)
Wow. There was a whole bunch of bullshit in that comment. Let's unpack it.
The point is that there was plenty of incentive and necessity to execute cuts in expenses
Pandemic prevention is money well spent. There are plenty of other places to cut. The only reason trump cut these is because Obama=bad.
Spending money on Pandemic prevention was a much better deal than burning $3 trillion.
there was no pandemic at the time
Protecting American citizens is a job of the President. We have had several scares over the years. All of those were handled better by the US government. Even Bush handled pandemics correctly.
Its impossible to know when not to slash an expense that you're going to need.
Maybe for you and trump, but not for reasonable people. The fact is Pandemic spending was money well spent. We should be laughing at Covid like we did with SARS and the bird flu. We are not because we elected a president who actually suggested injecting bleach to kill the virus. And you wonder why so many people(80 mil) voted against him?
Your response isn't logical.
Sounds like projection. Preventing pandemics is the best solution(and it is highly logical). Dumbass trump did not even try to prevent it until it was to late.
And of course its insulting. That's the left, tho... namecalling every time.
More projection. Always accuse others of what you are doing or what you want to do.
Kinda like 6th grade playground...
What do expect us to do? You are acting like spoiled stupid children.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
And you forget the lock-down of China about 4 weeks later - a lockdown roundly criticized as "xenophobic" and "racist"?
What lockdown? What are you talking about? Oh, you mean that lie the con artist came up with that all flights from China would be prohibited. The prohibition which never happened [washingtontimes.com].
Further, it was Europe [cnn.com] from which the East Coast got its infections. And the same group of people who were most affected [cnn.com] were the same ones who the previous year created the largest outbreak of measles this country [cbsnews.com] had seen in several decades. The same group who recently tried to have a 10,000 person wedding [nytimes.com], without masks or any type of social distancing.
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Insightful)
Was this another case of US citizens having rights and everyone else being SOL? As in they can't do anything to stop US citizens entering the country and not quarantining themselves, but non-citizens have no rights and they can do what they like to them?
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump never did that. The NSC leader re-organized the National Security Council pandemic team (along with the terrorism team, etc..., to put them all together) after which one person resigned. That's it. They also had nothing to do with handling pandemics in the U.S.
Try again. It was more than one person and the team itself was disbanded [reuters.com].
Trump took COVID seriously before prominent Democrats did,
No, he didn't. He repeatedly lied, denied and obfuscated the serious nature of the pandemic, including admitting to Bob Woodward, he downplayed how serious it was [forbes.com].
not to mention all the Democratic governors who have presided over the worst states for COVID death rates.
When you get no help from the federal government [thehill.com], no guidance on how to proceed, have medical equipment you've purchased with your taxpayer dollars stolen by the federal government [businessinsider.com], are told a national stockpile of supplies to be used in such situations is not for the state's to use [salon.com], and a plan to have a national strategy was abandoned because it could politically help the opposition [vanityfair.com], it's not difficult to see why those states had such issues. So what's your excuse for why all those Republican-led states in the midwest are now seeing higher rates of cases than the East coast did?
Pretty tough to pat the people on the back who failed the worst, primarily by sending the infected into the nursing homes of the most vulnerable to dying from COVID.
Yes, the con artist has failed miserably to do anything worthwhile to protect this country. He's ignored advice from experts, criticized and excoriated medical professionals who state the truth of how bad things are, has claimed he has total authority to do whatever he wants but never does anything, and has gone out of his way to attack those who have done what they could to try and protect their citizens, including giving a group of terrorists [independent.co.uk] who tried to kidnap and kill a U.S. governor a pass while blaming the governor.
Did I mention the thousands of veterans [gephardtdaily.com] who have died in VA retirement homes [aarp.org] run by the government? Remind me again who are supposed president is?
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
Otherwise, tell me if you have a problem understanding this, the USA is a Republic and the individual states are responsible for what they do. That is why biden finally had to admit that the only thing he could do is make you do is wear your mask while you were on a interstate while you were alone in your private car.
Nope. Here's what he could do:
And boom. Suddenly all those whiny red state governors would stop screaming "states rights" and would immediately bend over backwards to comply so that their massively undertaxed states could continue suckling the federal government's teat and leeching off of the blue states (rather than raising taxes to keep their states in the black and then promptly losing the next election in a landslide).
States technically have the right to do a lot of things, but the states whose coronavirus response was the most seriously broken are mostly in the top 10 or so states in terms of their dependence on federal funding to break even. Most would not survive without federal funding. Realistically, they would have no choice but to capitulate. So in practice, the federal government most certainly *can* mandate things, and anybody who says otherwise has no freaking clue how government works in the real world.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
Also, red states don't "suck the federal government's teat".
Yes, they do. This is settled [apnews.com]. You can lie all you want about it, but the facts speak for themselves. Not only that, red states received more money, by far [forbes.com], in both stimulus money and federal support than blue states.
In terms of "coronavirus response was the most seriously broken", those are the Democratic run states like NY/NJ/MA which have the highest per capita COVID death rates.
Not any longer [beckershos...review.com]. All those states whose Republican governors went out of their way to ignore medical advice are now seeing rates far higher than any of the states you mentioned, and further, are consistently at or near the top of per capita infection rates not only in the country, but across the world [newsweek.com].
Re:Snope (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay, while the list is missing some entries that probably belonged to be there, it's also a subjective list, since it clearly means most deaths from one event/cause and doesn't include deaths that happen due to what we could call "common" causes of death, both of which are qualitative judgements. It's not wrong in the sense that the death counts from the events on the list are incorrect or out of step with general consensus.
As a list with some frames of reference tho, nitpicking what should be on there and why is a textbook example of tossing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not a scientific paper.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In pre-Covid America, about 8000 people died on a typical day.
About 3000 per day are dying of Covid, but you can't just add those to the non-Covid deaths, because Covid disproportionally kills those who are already weak. Covid is killing many people who would have died soon anyway.
Covid is likely adding an additional 20-30% surplus deaths.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Correct.
Look at the Canadian chart. It maps deaths from ALL causes weekly. There was an initial spike that took out all the 'susceptible people' but now it is burning it self out to the point, less people are dying now than in years past.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n... [statcan.gc.ca]
Re:Snope (Score:4, Informative)
"There was an initial spike that took out all the 'susceptible people' but now it is burning it self out to the point, less people are dying now than in years past"
That graph looks like they only have partial data up to the 2nd week of September where the data ends. The data for the previous weeks would be expected to be incomplete.
Which would mean the dip represents missing data.
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Used to be that we prided ourselves on protecting the most vulnerable. Now when Granny dies gasping for air, not surrounded by loved ones we have folks like you are just shoulder shrugging. Targeting an old and defenseless person usually makes you more, not less of a villain, but somehow there is this collective mindset that thinks it’s OK to kill off the geezers so long as they can eat out and go to the bars.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Some people are lying and saying Covid is not serious.
The antidote to that lying is telling the truth, not more lies to exaggerate in the other direction.
Opposing lies don't "cancel out". They increase cynicism and make even more people doubt the truth.
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"Opposing lies don't "cancel out". They increase cynicism and make even more people doubt the truth."
Yes, that is true.
And the number of deaths aren't the only measure, there are also the numbers representing those with various degrees of impairment, from light to very serious.
Re: (Score:2)
While true, it is a common reaction when people don't respond to you yelling fire when there actually is a fire.
Same thing happens with climate change, for 40 years scientists predicted the earth would start warming at an increasing rate, that the arctic would feel it the worst and Reagan not only didn't take it seriously but actually removed the solar panels on the Whitehouse, expanded subsidies for finding oil, and a whole host of other environmentally unfriendly policies. Not unlike what Trump has done
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You're just claiming that the extra 20-30% total deaths were going to die anyway
No. That is the opposite of what I claimed.
There were about 8000 deaths-per-day pre-Covid. So that is the baseline. About 3000 per day are dying of Covid.
3000 over the 8000 baseline is a 37% increase.
But that is not likely the actual increase because many of those people would have been part of the baseline. So the actual increase in deaths (the surplus over the baseline) is likely about 20-30%.
So the 20-30% is the number of people who die every day from Covid who would NOT have died anyway.
Re: Snope (Score:2)
YOLO. "You do you"... I mean the rhetoric has been pretty clear the collective mindset of Americas is we don't care about others as long as we get to live our lives as we want. The only time the debate acknowledges injustices is when it glaringly affects average people but often by then the pattern is so systematically ingrained, that we are just pissing in the wind.
I wish I knew how the ethos of America couldbe restored to something like what Einstein saw when he was an immigrant but it seems totally un
Re: (Score:2)
Try that as a defense at a homicide trial. "He was going to die tomorrow anyway, so I can't be guilty of killing him."
So (Score:2)
Does that justify the deaths because they were elderly?
Covid isolation is saving lives too (Score:3)
Well your numbers overlook that covid isolation means fewer die of flu or car crashes. People are out walking more every days when they work from home which is healthy. Even air pollution is down.
So excess deaths don't fully report the covid deaths because of factors like that.
What's funny is that with all this work from home people have more time for themselves. They are experiencing what Europe has known for a long time.
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In pre-Covid America, about 8000 people died on a typical day.
About 3000 per day are dying of Covid, but you can't just add those to the non-Covid deaths, because Covid disproportionally kills those who are already weak. Covid is killing many people who would have died soon anyway.
Covid is likely adding an additional 20-30% surplus deaths.
If you want to discount those from the official covid death count who would have died anyway, doesn't it also seem fair to count all excess deaths as they are probably in some way covid related even if indirectly? The excess death count being higher than the covid death count makes this significant https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... [cdc.gov] Diagram: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... [cdc.gov]
Re:Snope (Score:4, Informative)
In pre-Covid America, about 8000 people died on a typical day.
Yes, for a variety of reasons such as vehicle accidents, gun shot wounds, heart disease, cancer, etc. However, not one of those reasons kills 3,000 each day. Nice try at deflection. The fact is, covid is now the largest daily killer in this country. This chart from April [businessinsider.com] shows a daily comparison of deaths. That was when we only had 13,000 deaths in a week. We are now at 20,000 per week meaning covid is outpacing every other reason for death, by far.
Covid is killing many people who would have died soon anyway.
For large definitions of soon. I don't consider someone in their 30s with no medical issues dying within a few days of contracting covid as dying soon anyway.
"the biggest/most x in y" (Score:3)
this phrase usually involves factual errors in the vast majority of news stories i have ever read.
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I really don't understand your need to downplay the daily deaths of thousands of vulnerable people.
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Do you have a source for this claim of 295,000 lockdown suicides? Any source? Literally any statistics at all rather than individual anecdotes?
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Seriously, there are not 3k lockdown suicides a day, guys.
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It's a talking point from places like Newsmax. Those evil democrats are killing people by making them stay home.
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Heck, even if he had 295k individual anecdotes, that would be something.
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People are killing themselves over not being able to eat at an Applebees or get shitfaced in a bar? Or are you attributing suicides to financial hardships? Well in the latter case maybe they should have asked Mitch McConnell to vote on some stimulus bills. https://wgntv.com/news/coronav... [wgntv.com]
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Were any of those caused by others refusing to wear a 50 cent paper mask?
Re:The numbers for Gettysburg and Antietam are wro (Score:4, Informative)
The death of Americans at Antietam was 2,100.
2100 was roughly the number of Union deaths at Antietam. There were also about 1600 Confederate deaths, or about 3700 total.
The death of Americans at Gettysburg was a bit over 1,000 a day.
That was roughly the number of Union deaths. There were even more Confederates killed, especially on the 3rd day (Pickett's Charge).
We don't include the numbers of other countries
Legally, the states had no right to secede. So the Confederate states were never independent, and the Southern soldiers who died in Antietam's wheat field and Gettysburg's peach orchard were just as American as the Union soldiers who shot them down.
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we should ask WHY these people want this disease to seem as horrible as possible
Because people are dying. By the thousands. Every. Fucking. Day. And people are burrying their heads in the sand instead of doing something about it.
No, the real question we should ask is why people like you (the vast majority of which are Trump supporters, by the way) are doing their damnest to minimize the gravity of the situation.
Maybe the answer can be found, at least in part, between the paranthesis in the paragraph above.
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During 1918, medical care was in its infancy, and they were rarely even using supplemental oxygen at all. Comparing death rates now to a hundred years ago is hardly a fair comparison. Adjusting for advances in medical care, a death rate of 3k people per day in 1918 is probably equivalent to a death rate of only a few dozen today.
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Shooting deaths with COVID?
Knifing deaths with COVID?
Falls with COVID?
Automobile accidents with COVID?
Smoke inhalation with COVID?
Burns with COVID?
No, it does not. The WHO sets very specific rules for what does and does not count as a COVID-related death, and none of those things meet the criteria, because there is a clear other cause.
Heart attacks with COVID?
Strokes with COVID?
Yes, because COVID is known to cause inflammation of the blood vessels that can quite literally cause heart attacks and strokes, not to mention that being sedentary in a hospital bed can cause DVTs that also quite literally cause heart attacks and strokes. So heart attacks and strokes with COVID must be assumed to be C