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Medicine

200 Scientists Say WHO Ignores the Risk That Coronavirus 'Aerosols' Float in the Air (msn.com) 250

"Six months into a pandemic that has killed over half a million people, more than 200 scientists from around the world are challenging the official view of how the coronavirus spreads," reports the Los Angeles Times: The World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention maintain that you have to worry about only two types of transmission: inhaling respiratory droplets from an infected person in your immediate vicinity or — less commontouching a contaminated surface and then your eyes, nose or mouth.

But other experts contend that the guidance ignores growing evidence that a third pathway also plays a significant role in contagion.

They say multiple studies demonstrate that particles known as aerosolsmicroscopic versions of standard respiratory droplets — can hang in the air for long periods and float dozens of feet, making poorly ventilated rooms, buses and other confined spaces dangerous, even when people stay six feet from one another. "We are 100% sure about this," said Lidia Morawska, a professor of atmospheric sciences and environmental engineering at Queensland University of Technology in Brisbane, Australia. She makes the case in an open letter to the WHO accusing the United Nations agency of failing to issue appropriate warnings about the risk. A total of 239 researchers from 32 countries signed the letter, which is set to be published next week in a scientific journal.

In interviews, experts said that aerosol transmission appears to be the only way to explain several "super-spreading" events, including the infection of diners at a restaurant in China who sat at separate tables and of choir members in Washington state who took precautions during a rehearsal... The proponents of aerosol transmission said masks worn correctly would help prevent the escape of exhaled aerosols as well as inhalation of the microscopic particles. But they said the spread could also be reduced by improving ventilation and zapping indoor air with ultraviolet light in ceiling units.

The Times also got a response from Dr. Benedetta Allegranzi, a top WHO expert on infection prevention and control, who argued the group only presented theories based on experiments rather than actual evidence from the field.

Allegranzi also added that in weekly teleconferences, a large majority of a group of more than 30 international experts advising the WHO had "not judged the existing evidence sufficiently convincing to consider airborne transmission as having an important role in COVID-19 spread."
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200 Scientists Say WHO Ignores the Risk That Coronavirus 'Aerosols' Float in the Air

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  • by Kunedog ( 1033226 )
    Over a thousand health officials signed an open letter refusing to warn the public against the riots and protests, in which they explicitly cite their personal politics, including how it overrides their professional judgedment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    Push a leftist political cause, and you'll be granted a Get Out of Scorn Free card as both the press and medical profession will refuse to speak out against anything you do. How is the public supposed to take your policy or policy recommendations
    • by Shaeun ( 1867894 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @10:52AM (#60263744)

      Over a thousand health officials signed an open letter refusing to warn the public against the riots and protests, in which they explicitly cite their personal politics, including how it overrides their professional judgedment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] Push a leftist political cause, and you'll be granted a Get Out of Scorn Free card as both the press and medical profession will refuse to speak out against anything you do. How is the public supposed to take your policy or policy recommendations seriously, after they've seen that?

      They don't. This is why we are having such a problem with the response in the US.
      Everyone lies, the media is so biased that everything counts as an opinion piece. Fact based reporting is so rare these days it might as well be a unicorn or some other fabled beast.
      as a country we have several problems, the first being the ability to get honest and unbiased reporting. Without that it is impossible to make good decisions regarding how we want our republic to run.

      and the WHO messed up, who knew! Hold on, everyone knows,,,

      • Anecdote: I briefly dated this journalist major in college. Why did she want to be a journalist? Her answer and I quote, "Because I want to change the world".

        Sigh...

    • by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:12AM (#60263812)

      Over a thousand health officials signed an open letter refusing to warn the public against the riots and protests, in which they explicitly cite their personal politics, including how it overrides their professional judgedment.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      First things first, if you're going to cite a source don't link a 10 minute rant from a wannabe pundit on YouTube, instead try to find a proper article [www.cbc.ca].

      Second, black people in the US have pretty horrid health outcomes. And if you think that the protests can reduce the cause of those bad healthcomes then there is a significant public health benefit.

      Push a leftist political cause, and you'll be granted a Get Out of Scorn Free card as both the press and medical profession will refuse to speak out against anything you do. How is the public supposed to take your policy or policy recommendations seriously, after they've seen that?

      Third, protesters did try to adhere to social distancing guidelines including masks, even when the police seized those masks [huffingtonpost.ca].

      Finally, it's been long know that it's indoors groups that are the main source of COVID-19 transmission and the risk is significantly lessened outside. I mean that's the entire point of this article. And to my knowledge, no one has traced any real COVID-19 outbreaks to the #BLM protests, so those thousand health experts (not officials) seem to have made the right call.

    • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:16AM (#60263826)
      If you listen to Fauci, as such things go, Outdoor events are the safer choice. If you wear masks and social distance (which the majority of protests did) they're very safe (though there is still a risk).

      And it's safe to say they were at least wearing masks, what with all the tear gas...

      As for "pushing a leftist cause", well, the right wing President just held 3 large rallies and he and his party actively encouraged protests against mask wearing and stay at home orders. Then there's this thing right here [cnn.com] and also this one [theguardian.com] where the right wing one thanks to open threats of violence.

      So, the "leftist cause" overwhelmingly responsibly protested and did so peaceably. Meanwhile on the right wing the protestors were literally protesting for the right to be irresponsible, were encouraged by the highest politicians and leaders on their side and get violent when there is a serious chance of losing.

      And before you ask, no, looters != protestors. The looting stopped around day 3. The protests are _still_ going on today. The media stopped covering them as soon as the looting stopped. Almost like the media doesn't really want police reform.

      The funniest thing is that the protestors are protesting against the Police State. Shouldn't the right wing be on their side?
      • The looting stopped around day 3.

        Oh come on, that's not true at all. And if you include vandals, they have gone along with every protest around these parts.

        • right? Most of them are doing it on their own property. Even then they often get accosted by right wingers who threaten to call the cops. To a BLM protestor that is a threat of violence, because it's understood by all involved that if the cops show up they will bring violence with them. Yes, the right wingers threatening to call the cops know this, it's why they made the threat instead of just calling.
          • Most of them are doing it on their own property.

            No lol

            • Yeah, yeah they are. There's a few kids with paint cans. Very few. And the event organizers rip into them for it. I've watched several hours of raw footage plus multiple montages. The protests were some of the cleanest & safest since the 60s. Given what black folks put up with in this country and what we repeatedly saw the police doing (inciting violence) they were amazingly well behaved. Ghandi & MLK couldn't have done better, and these protestors lacked a strong leader.
            • Yes lol.
    • I'm decidedly not a leftist and I think protestors which block traffic or break noise regulations should be arrested and/or fined (it's pretty much impossible to do a mass protest legally, that's why in most civilized countries you need a license for a mass protest).

      That said, the evidence for outside infection being negligible is even stronger than the evidence for the WHO to be completely unscientific with it's droplet theory.

      Just let the left and right march, as long as they do it outside it won't affect

    • by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @01:42PM (#60264368)

      Why is protesting against systemic racism a leftist cause? Surely you're not saying those on the right like racism? Though Trump for some bizarre reason seems to think that confederate generals are "heroes", but he's a buffoon so those on right or left should be ignoring him anyway.

    • leftist[sic]

      Allow me to sing you my cover of the chorus to a popular kpop song by AoA.

      ~ Derp derp derp derp derp derp.
      Derp derp derp derp derp.
      Derp derp derp derp derp derp derp derp,
      derp derp derp. ~

      https://youtu.be/4Xm6AkQ7Uk4 [youtu.be]

  • by ackerrj ( 1136479 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @10:50AM (#60263740)
    WHO has been totally behind the curve since the beginning. The place to start was on origin with quarantine of and in China. China woke up and did that internally, but exported it. Flights and international travel continued. WHO could have attempted a quarantine, but instead, advocated against it. They have also presented contradictory and incorrect information, the latest being on the means of spread. It is clear to me that ANY CONFINED SPACE is to be avoided, which is our MO.
    • by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:00AM (#60263772) Journal
      Heck, China never even told the WHO - the WHO learned of the China epidemic on its own by monitoring internal declarations in Wuhan [japantimes.co.jp]. China only "came clean" four days later - on January 3rd - when shown the proof. China was fine sweeping it under the rug and letting the rest of the world die.
    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      Not just the WHO but most political leaders in most countries have done a dismal job of learning how the virus spreads and preventing that spread with public information bulletins.

      It's so simple not to catch this virus: you don't breath in the air of other people and wash your hands and keep relevant surfaces clean as possible.

      Isolation, distancing, masks, testing, tracing, quarantine. We know exactly how to stop a person from catching the virus from another person but half the world seems to be in complete

    • by Jamu ( 852752 )

      Not a surprise considering their arguments from ignorance: "There is no/poor/unconvincing evidence of X, therefore it's not X".

    • Errr. The WHO can't attempt anything. They are an advisory organisation that makes recommendations *retrospectively* based on official published data from governments and science journals *only*.

      If this virus has demonstrated one thing conclusively it's that a large portion of the population don't have a clue what the WHO is, what it does, or that they operate they way they do because the UN of which the USA is a member wrote that in their charter.

      WHO could have attempted a quarantine, but instead, advocated against it.

      You want the WHO to *recommend* a quarantine, you have to ge

  • by Qwertie ( 797303 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:02AM (#60263782) Homepage

    aerosols [...] can hang in the air for long periods [....] experts said that aerosol transmission appears to be the only way to explain several "super-spreading" events, including the infection of diners at a restaurant in China

    If you actually read the link, it says that the families who received a COVID infection were seated at the same time at tables one metre away from the COVID-infected family/individual. "we concluded that the most likely cause of this outbreak was droplet transmission", it says - not "aerosol transmission".

    • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @12:50PM (#60264152) Homepage Journal

      Technical distinctions like the one between "droplets" and "aerosol" (aka "airborne") really trip up the popular media, but without getting them right you can't even understand what the controversy actually is.

      The real issue here is not whether aerosol transmission *can* occur, the question is *how significant a risk does it pose in ordinary circumstances*? There's plenty of evidence that says what a layman would call "airborne" transmission is a practical concern, but if you look into those events the evidence doesn't preclude transmission by small droplets that remain in the air for ten or fifteen minutes. That's not technically "airborne".

      That's not just an academic distinction. If true aerosol transmission is a serious practical concern, there's simply no way to protect people sharing an indoor area with an unmasked person, no matter how you space them out how many plastic shields you put up. Simply walking through a room an infected person might recently have been in is something to avoid.

      Sometimes science can't give a clear answer to a question yet, but the public needs guidance *right now*. In that case public health officials have to take a precautionary stance, but it's not always clear what that would be. If you ask too much of the public, many will choose to do nothing.

  • Highly likely (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bavarian ( 59962 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:07AM (#60263798)

    Here in Germany, many of the super spreading events happened in confined environments with bad air circulation (e.g. a carnival session, a meat processing facility where the cool air seems to have contributed, and several church and choir incidents).

    I would take the aerosol theory very seriously.

    • Here in Germany, many of the super spreading events happened in confined environments with bad air circulation

      Yes, that's true eveywhere.

      I would take the aerosol theory very seriously.

      Everyone already knows that minuscule droplets can spread Covid. But you're talking about environments where larger, non-aerosol droplets can easily be spread between people by air currents. If spread in the worst environments lends credence to the aerosol theory in your mind, it's because you're not thinking.

      What we really want to know, and still don't know, is whether Covid can be transmitted in evaporated droplets, or on dust particles — that is to say, what epidemiologis

      • There's a huge middle ground between completely evaporated viral particles which can float indefinitely and >5 micron droplets which can float seconds.

        For every couple of seconds more they stay infectious and airborne you have to add a couple extra feet ... it adds up to orders of magnitude more than 6 feet long before you reach full evaporation.

        • For every couple of seconds more they stay infectious and airborne you have to add a couple extra feet ... it adds up to orders of magnitude more than 6 feet long before you reach full evaporation.

          That may be. Six feet has always been bullshit. It's not true even outside, so it's not true inside either (where there is less UV.) The endless declarations that we should remain "at least six feet apart" are surely doing more harm than good by convincing people that the benefit of distancing ends at six feet.

  • Does anyone know? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sentiblue ( 3535839 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:31AM (#60263878)
    - That the China President's wife is an honor member of the WHO
    - The WHO Director's wife has ownership of a hospital in China?

    We may not be able to do much about China... but I want the WHO's director relieved of duties (not resigned).
  • CO2 as the canary (Score:5, Informative)

    by MrL0G1C ( 867445 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:56AM (#60263974) Journal

    Buy a CO2 meter, around 400 to 500ppm - fresh air, at 1000ppm stale air been breathed in and out a fair bit - and perhaps a good few virus particles in it.

    Thing is, social distancing won't work indoors if you spend hours in a room with an infected person, 1m or 2m won't mean much if there's not very good fresh ventilation.

    1000ppm and above CO2 is also kind of bad for your brain, makes you a bit stupid.

  • by Generic User Account ( 6782004 ) on Sunday July 05, 2020 @12:21PM (#60264038)
    If you do that, you prevent enough infections to keep the disease under control. Corona isn't the measles. Its R0 value is just 3. Preventing just two thirds of the infections is good enough. We can't live outdoors until this is over. Stop discussing whose agenda is what. Everything you say that gives someone an excuse to say "but..." makes the situation worse. The virus isn't Democratic, Republican, Chinese, Black, White, Communist, Capitalist. It can be defeated with a piece of cloth covering your mouth and nose. WEAR A MASK. It's simple, it's cheap, it works.
    • It can be defeated with a piece of cloth covering your mouth and nose. WEAR A MASK. It's simple, it's cheap, it works.

      I mostly agree.

      Unfortunately, cloth masks mostly protect OTHER PEOPLE and not the wearer. So pretty much everybody has to wear them, pretty much all the time they're in public, for them to work well enough to extinguish the pandemic.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by cygnusvis ( 6168614 )

      Wear the fucking masks!

      Make me (thats right you cant). When emergency powers are over, not even the president of the USA can make me wear a mask. I wear it into Walmart because they wont let me in without one and I need to buy food. I guarantee 100% that if Trump came out with a mandatory mask order people on the left would be 100% against masks and be suing the government into Venezuela. BOTH sides say "its not partisanship" but in the USA EVERYTHING is partisan.

    • Why can't we "live outdoors"? How much of the recent spread in the sunbelt is due to people staying inside, where the air conditioning is? If anything, people should be outdoors - in Summer weather it can't survive even a minute in the air.
  • These idiots (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Khyber ( 864651 ) <techkitsune@gmail.com> on Sunday July 05, 2020 @03:38PM (#60264756) Homepage Journal

    It is a respiratory disease, first and foremost. To not think of aerosolized spread is the dumbest thing ever, to dismiss it even more so.

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