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Earth Science

Carlsberg and Coca-Cola Back Pioneering Project To Make Plant-Based Bottles (theguardian.com) 152

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: A biochemicals company in the Netherlands hopes to kickstart investment in a pioneering project that hopes to make plastics from plant sugars rather than fossil fuels. The plans, devised by renewable chemicals company Avantium, have already won the support of beer-maker Carlsberg, which hopes to sell its pilsner in a cardboard bottle lined with an inner layer of plant plastic. Avantium's chief executive, Tom van Aken, says he hopes to greenlight a major investment in the world-leading bioplastics plant in the Netherlands by the end of the year. The project, which remains on track despite the coronavirus lockdown, is set to reveal partnerships with other food and drink companies later in the summer.

The project has the backing of Coca-Cola and Danone, which hope to secure the future of their bottled products by tackling the environmental damage caused by plastic pollution and a reliance on fossil fuels. [...] Avantium's plant plastic is designed to be resilient enough to contain carbonate drinks. Trials have shown that the plant plastic would decompose in one year using a composter, and a few years longer if left in normal outdoor conditions. But ideally, it should be recycled, said Van Aken. The bio-refinery plans to break down sustainable plant sugars into simple chemical structures that can then be rearranged to form a new plant-based plastic -- which could appear on supermarket shelves by 2023.

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Carlsberg and Coca-Cola Back Pioneering Project To Make Plant-Based Bottles

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  • Who needs them? Just use solar power to extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and turn it into oil. It's called airmining.

    • Re:Trees (Score:5, Interesting)

      by slack_justyb ( 862874 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @12:36AM (#60085380)

      Just use solar power to extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and turn it into oil.

      Easy there buddy. Extracting CO2 into something like methane or ethane is not cheap, not easy, and few people can actually do it. Doing that into complex molecules like what's required for oil is REALLY not cheap and is also incredibly time consuming. All the while providing maybe enough resources to make a few thousand bottles. Recycled tree fibers can happen a lot faster, in bulk, and at insanely cheaper prices than what you are suggesting. And getting raw tree resource into paper fibers... Pfft that's not even in the domain of remotely competitive on cost, time, or volume of processing power. Turning a tree into paper/carboard is just so vastly cheaper than CO2 extraction alone (much less the conversion into a usable product), we're not even talking about the same ballpark in the same galaxy here.

      Additionally, creating plastics that can degrade in years rather than decades it the goal here. So the tree option is a lot more attractive while also being super cheap, a single tree provides a lot of cardboard, we have large supply chains already created, and turning trees into the products needed is well known, insanely quick, and orders of magnitude cheaper.

      I get it. Turning CO2 into really neat things we can use is super cool. But we're just not at the point right now to where that will ever be cost effective compared to literally every other option. We will absolutely get there one day, but to go full Aragorn here "It is not this day!"

      • Can it be done? Is it a net plus? Yes? Then do it!

        Who cares if it is easy, or cheap, or efficient? That doesn't justify shitting all over and damaging our property! (This planet.)
        Fuck the shareholders. Fuck their "demands". If they want money, they should get a job!
        (That means something where you work for your money.)

        We got plenty of sunlight.
        Just scale it up as much as you want. And place it in a desert. I'll gladly invest in it. Better than a stupid college fund where 95% of it goes to profit and wasted t

        • That's a great idea.

          Until the price for a bottle of coke goes up to 5 bucks because of it. Then you'll suddenly see their market share cave in because the other company over there sells them for 1.49 in a cheap plastic bottle and suddenly all the tree huggers find excuses to not buy the 5 dollar bottles.

          • by whitroth ( 9367 )

            Har-de-har har. Bought a bottle of Coke in a store on an Interstate rest stop, or a movie theater?

            And when the government finally gets pushed to ban one-use plastic bottles, as they're moving towards with the cheap crap plastic bags in stupormarkets?

        • by bkr1_2k ( 237627 )

          Define "Net Plus". To a for-profit company net plus means something very different than it does to you, I'm sure. If it costs more to produce than the market value of the end-product, it isn't a net plus, by any definition.

      • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

        Exactly this - Some 30 years ago I had a highschool chemistry teacher I asked about this. He was a retired chemical engineer, I can't recall which of the majors he had worked at any more. His response at the time was

        "Give me enough input energy and I can make you any hydrocarbon from atmospheric CO2 you'd like; but you will never get nearly back out when you go to burn it as I had to put in to making it."

        He was not as far as I could tell any sort of tree-hugging ex-hippie. I don't think he had any agenda

        • Exactly this - Some 30 years ago I had a highschool chemistry teacher I asked about this. He was a retired chemical engineer, I can't recall which of the majors he had worked at any more. His response at the time was

          "Give me enough input energy and I can make you any hydrocarbon from atmospheric CO2 you'd like; but you will never get nearly back out when you go to burn it as I had to put in to making it."

          I had a chemistry professor at university that mentioned how silly it was to recycle plastics. He thought it a waste to carry all this plastic around to get it to a recycling facility when nearly every city had an electric generation plant in which we could simply burn the plastics. I've seen informed people make an argument for this same waste disposal method for any municipal waste that could burn. Recycling paper, cardboard, and so much more is being shown to be less friendly for the environment than

      • I'm pretty sure that the GP was going for a +5 funny and you totally ruined it by replying with a +5 interesting as if they were serious. That being said, yes, having the plastics degrade really is (and should be) the goal. Energy is important as we don't have infinite amounts of it and it would be silly to "save" resources by making bottles in a way that consumes more fossil fuels than one would if you were just to convert the petroleum to plastic. However, energy is getting cheaper and more environment
    • Who needs them? Just use solar power to extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and turn it into oil. It's called airmining.

      That doesn't solve the problem of plastic bottles not being recycled and ending up in landfills, or ending up somewhere else.

      People like plastic bottles because they are light and resealable. Being transparent/translucent is likely favorable too, this allows people to easily see the level of the liquid remaining. Glass is transparent/translucent, easily recyclable, with the right kind of cap it is resealable, but not all that light. Aluminum is light, recyclable, potentially resealable, but not clear eno

      • by Cyberax ( 705495 )

        Aluminum is light, recyclable, potentially resealable, but not clear enough to see inside.

        Aluminum is also a poor fit for large containers, because it easily creases when not pressurized from inside, so you need thicker containers that become really expensive. Aluminum cans also have plastic internal lining, which can sometimes defeat the whole purpose.

        • Re:Trees (Score:4, Insightful)

          by blindseer ( 891256 ) <blindseer@@@earthlink...net> on Thursday May 21, 2020 @03:22AM (#60085612)

          Aluminum is also a poor fit for large containers, because it easily creases when not pressurized from inside, so you need thicker containers that become really expensive.

          Then use glass for the larger containers. I can remember when it was common for fruit juice to come in gallon sized glass bottles. Glass can't be all that expensive if wine can come in glass bottles and still sell for $5.

          Aluminum cans also have plastic internal lining, which can sometimes defeat the whole purpose.

          Then use glass bottles. Or use a lining for the cans made of something other than plastic. Perhaps a lining made of soybean wax like that used to make candles.

          I'm trying real hard to understand the problem here. This doesn't look like all that hard of a problem. Coca-cola et al. are looking for an alternative to plastic bottles. It wasn't that long ago when glass was the dominate means to contain beverages. The lids were steel, which is also recyclable. So, what's the problem they are trying to solve again?

          • Coke used to come in glass bottles, many many years ago. They moved to plastic because it's cheaper. Cheaper to manufacture, and cheaper to transport - you can fit more bottles in a container, or within a fixed weight budget. Coke could switch to glass, but then they wouldn't make as much money. Or they would have to raise the price, and customers would start to drift to rival products.

            • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

              Coke used to come in glass bottles, many many years ago.

              The superior Mexican Coke (tastes better than American Coke and doesn't have HFCS) is still sold in bottles. If I need a Coke fix that's what I try to get if I can.

              • The "superior Mexican Coke"

                Phrasing.

              • The superior Mexican Coke (tastes better than American Coke and doesn't have HFCS) is still sold in bottles. If I need a Coke fix that's what I try to get if I can.

                This. So much this. Kinda ironic that we have to turn to Mexico to actually get the true original* recipe Coke. And where I am, it's priced only slightly higher - despite being imported and using glass bottles.

                * not the one with cocaine lol

                • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

                  The superior Mexican Coke (tastes better than American Coke and doesn't have HFCS) is still sold in bottles. If I need a Coke fix that's what I try to get if I can.

                  This. So much this. Kinda ironic that we have to turn to Mexico to actually get the true original* recipe Coke. And where I am, it's priced only slightly higher - despite being imported and using glass bottles.

                  * not the one with cocaine lol

                  At kroger right now by me the 12oz glass bottle is $1 while the 20oz plastic American bottle is $1.99. So actually currently cheaper.

            • It wasn't *that* long ago. In college, the cheapest way to buy Coke products was to buy them in the returnable 8 packs of bottles. The downside is they were heavy, and I used to use a wooden dowel so I could carry 3 packs at a time home with them.

              I also don't think "cheaper to manufacture" matters as much when you're reusing the container. It'd be interesting to know what the reuse lifespan of a Coke bottle was. I think Coke bottles were more durable than their contemporary, the returnable glass beer bo

              • There are many challenges with returnable glass bottles including forms of fraud where they are bought in a state without a deposit and returned in a state that has a deposit. And without the incentive, they don't get returned. Glass is relatively cheap to make but it's not economical to recycle it. Plus recycling separation tends to not be done very well. I'm not saying that glass isn't part of the solution but a degradable plastic should also be an option.
          • by Cyberax ( 705495 )

            Then use glass for the larger containers. I can remember when it was common for fruit juice to come in gallon sized glass bottles. Glass can't be all that expensive if wine can come in glass bottles and still sell for $5.

            Large glass containers are very heavy and brittle, so they are more expensive to transport than plastic. If all plastic bottles were banned, then we would have 2L glass Coke bottles, sure. But this is simply politically impossible, people are having outrage dementia from plastic straw bans.

            Then use glass bottles. Or use a lining for the cans made of something other than plastic. Perhaps a lining made of soybean wax like that used to make candles.

            There are actually companies working right now on bioplastics for this purpose. But it's not at all straightforward.

          • "Glass can't be all that expensive if wine can come in glass bottles and still sell for $5."

            We have enough industry to use more resources than the planet can support.

            The issue isn't the cost, the issue is not pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere.

      • It took a while to get Plastic Bottles to be popular over glass. The biggest hurtle was making the plastic to be less of an insulator and allow the cold drink to sweat on the bottle. Because before that no one wanted to get soda in a plastic bottle, because they thought they were handed a warm soda.

        Transparency I don't feel is a big issue, just as long as there is some nice marketing and branding around it. They are some soft drink sold in aluminum bottles, and others have wrapping completely covering the

    • If only there was a technology that could do that, something that could organically extract CO2 from the air, store it in an organic medium and then over a period of time decompose down into carbon chains that we could then extract and use as a fuel. That would be amazing.

    • Biodegradable and UV degradable plastic have been around for ages. The trouble is getting companies to use it, since it is still more expensive than the ordinary kind. Degradable plastic for food is also a problem, since it can end up absorbed into the food. However, where I live (desert), ALL plastic degrades quite quickly outside. It is just a matter of how much UV is available.
      • But what does it degrade to in the desert? Just a small lump of molten plastic? If thats the case then it becomes a blob of pollution.
    • Trees Who needs them? Just use solar power to extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and turn it into oil. It's called airmining.

      This is actually a pretty good plan. the best part is that airmining systems literally grow on tees so they're very easy to make.

    • Plants are solar powered and they create material out of carbon dioxide too. We can probably use the Solar Power generated for more practical activities.

      Let us redefine progress to mean Just because you can do a thing, it doesn't mean you must do that thing.

  • by ngc5194 ( 847747 ) on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @11:39PM (#60085290)

    This comes right on the heels of their spokesperson telling the folks at Davos that their customers still want plastic bottles. We will see if they're heart is really in becoming part of the solution. https://www.bbc.com/news/busin... [bbc.com]

    • > This comes right on the heels of their spokesperson telling the folks at Davos that their customers still want plastic bottles.

      Yes... as your linked article says - in comparison to aluminum and glass bottles. Plant bottles will still look and feel like plastic bottles to the end consumer. That's the point. It is plastic. Bioplastic.

    • It depends.

      E.g. in Germany, people who shop with cars buy glass, for sanity and health reasons. People who are just on the go in a city, buy plastic, because glass is heavy. That is about the only reason.
      And even then, people generally refuse to buy beer on plastic bottles. It's all glass for class, or GTFO. That includes all mix drinks, wine, and even those fancy hipster lemonades and mate tea etc.
      Coca-Cola recently started selling glass bottles up to 1 liter again for this very reason.
      But it seems they

  • Reminds me of the paper bottles they use in David Brin's "The Uplift War" . Instead, they should go completely with edible plant matter, then you could just eat the bottle afterwards.

    • Wouldn't 'edible plant matter' be subject to rotting? The bottle would have a shorter shelf-life than the product within it?
      • Wouldn't 'edible plant matter' be subject to rotting? The bottle would have a shorter shelf-life than the product within it?

        Probably 99%+ of soda is sold/consumed within a couple of weeks.

        Maybe they could sell "long life" bottles to the curmudgeons (at slightly higher price...)

      • by Cyberax ( 705495 )

        Wouldn't 'edible plant matter' be subject to rotting?

        They say it takes 5 years for a bottle to decompose, and likely more if it's not in a moist environment. So shelf life is likely not an issue.

      • You never hear of a Twinkie?
        If a product is sufficiently waterproof to hold beverages, it probably wouldn't rot too quickly.
        If it is edible, it may break down in high acids, and enzymes. So I probably wouldn't bury it in soil, or in a bath of hydrochloric acid.

    • I wonder, maybe we should call these new paper bottles "Tetrapak"...
  • Glass and aluminum (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @11:55PM (#60085310) Journal
    Aside from the weight of glass bottles, what was really wrong with them?
    Glass and aluminum are very easily recycled aren't they?
    • by aliquis ( 678370 )

      You get broken glass just about everywhere.

      Sure that may be more of a problem with humans but a plastic-lined cardboard box is less likely to have that problem.

      • Also let's shake up a 'plastic lined carboard box' when it has something carbonated in it and see how long it lasts before bursting.
      • by rho ( 6063 )

        Interestingly, at our local reservoir, they banned the use of glass bottles on boats. Because jackasses would toss them overboard, they would eventually get pushed along by the river current to the spillway where they collected above the dam. Glass is functionally inert, but it takes a long, long time for glass to erode.

        I'm all for changing to environmentally friendly packaging, but we as a species also need to do something about litterers. Mandatory whipping or caning until everybody learns that tossing tr

    • by Cyberax ( 705495 )
      Glass bottles for large volumes are impractically heavy while also being very brittle.
    • Who cares though, really? If they want to spend their money making a new material (or a new way of producing a material), then if I don't have to pay for it with my taxes, let them go for it. Maybe they'll invent something cool.
    • Glass breaks into sharp shards. The younger ones among you probably have no experience walking down a street or playing in a park with broken glass shards everywhere. (This already happens at beaches from all the people drinking beer from glass bottles - try multiplying it by 100x.)

      Aluminum recycles easily, but the inside is coated with plastic [youtu.be] to prevent the drink from corroding the aluminum. So they're only slightly better than plastic bottles. When you recycle an aluminum can, the plastic is burned
    • dangerous when broken and heavy for transportation
    • Glass can shatter when dropped.
      So this means companies that ship glass, need to carry extra weight (meaning more fuel per bottle shipped), and their trucks will need to be made to handle the products more gently.

    • by DrXym ( 126579 )
      Yes and some countries do exactly that. In Germany most beer and soft drinks are sold in standard size glass or thick PET bottles. The bottle has a refundable deposit that you get back by feeding the empties into a reverse vending machine at a supermarket. The bottle gets washed and reused. Cans are also refundable though they would be crushed and melted back into ingots.

      It would be useful if biodegradable bottles could be manufactured but they would have serious food safety standards to meet. Not much go

    • Cost?
    • They tend to break in transport and make a mess. And it facilitates "shrinkage" (employees stealing). Employees steal a bottle or two and claim that they broke. Since a few bottles really did break, waht are you going to do? Piece all of the glass back together and try to call them out? Glass isn't economical to recycle and ends up in landfills where it doesn't degrade. That's not necessarily terrible as it doesn't form toxic byproducts and can probably be reused for things later. But its also a lousy c
  • Bamboo would probably pack better, but gourds have been useful for liquids for millennia... just no animal bladders please. Kombucha film may work too - package the kombucha in bioplastic made from its own film.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by ssyladin ( 458003 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @12:49AM (#60085428)

    I work at a company which specifically collects and recycles used beverage containers [bottledropcenters.com]. I'd really love to know what happens when one of these bottles is flaked and run through a plastic recycling mill. By the sounds of it, it does *not* break down into polymers which play well with non-plant-based stuff, so it'd basically act like a contaminate. Yay for the option, but sounds like methods need to be develop to separate out this material from the prevalent common PET.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It might be a case of everyone switching over and some short term pain is the best option, or rather the last bad option.

    • Recyclables are already sorted, there are already multiple different plastics used in bottles. Problem solved

      • Really? You trust millions of end customers to accurately separate multiple different types of plastic? And yeah, some populations can do that okay-ish, but that's one huge externality your recycling company is punting on to your "customers".

  • Is but one example I read from materials relating to George Washington Carver's research before it became hyper-politicized and susceptible to revisionist assertions. This was material that also cited Henry Ford's search for alternative materials to lessen the weight of his T-Models.

    Much speculation is made, some valid, other tin-foilish, about Tesla's lab late in his life, but what advances Carver made were, and are, obscured and relegated to rumor are as compelling and potentially revolutionary.

    Not so v
  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:39AM (#60085556) Journal

    Avantium's plant plastic is designed to be resilient enough to contain carbonate drinks. Trials have shown that the plant plastic would decompose in one year using a composter, and a few years longer if left in normal outdoor conditions.

    So you have a pressurized vessel strong enough to hold the pressure in but which, if left alone perhaps with a trace of mositure, rots and decomposes.

    So you'd better be sure to drink that soda before the bottle degrades enough that it explodes (and perhaps takes out the rest of the case, which would be getting weak about that time.) Foo-BAM!

    Or perhaps the bottles can be designed with a weak spot that goes first. Then it can spray the contents all over the pantry a little earlier, rather than blasting them around when it ruptures.

    Somehow this doesn't seem all that practical.

    • by Max_W ( 812974 )
      If I leave a pack of such bottles in my apartment while leaving to the summer house, I may find a catastrophe of liquid damage upon my return.

      The repair and painting works would make probably more damage to the environment than some light durable plastic bottles.
    • Re:Time bombs. (Score:4, Informative)

      by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @06:26AM (#60085954) Journal

      So you'd better be sure to drink that soda before the bottle degrades enough that it explodes (and perhaps takes out the rest of the case, which would be getting weak about that time.) Foo-BAM!

      Soda doesn't have a long shelf life. After about 9 months in a plastic bottle it goes flat because the bottles aren't completely impermeable to gas. In fact the pressure often goes negative and the bottle collapses after long enough because the bottles are more permeable to CO2 than O2 or N2, and diffusion acts to equalise the partial pressures.

  • with the price of chemicals skyrocketing in the past few months showing how sensitive the oil based supply chain is to global disruption.

    • You're right! This has nothing to do with the price of chemicals skyrocketing in the past few months. Coca-Cola and Danone have partnered with Avantium on this project since at least 2013. [avantium.com] It's old news.

      Oh, and...um, the price of chemicals hasn't "skyrocketed" in the last few months, unless you're talking about the stuff used to make cleaners/sanitizers.

  • Uses no fossil fuels my asshole. What is used to fertilize the plants? Fossil fuel. What energy is used to harvest and process the plants? Fossil fuel. Fuck these people and their bullshit plastic.
  • Some car wiring made with soy based plastics have problems being chewed by animals. Now they want to put food in it? This will not work out.

    And no one wants an old can of soda forgotten on the back of a shelf degrading within a year and leaking all over everything.

    Just go back to glass, if it weighs too much then you aren't healthy - workout some.
  • by FictionPimp ( 712802 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @08:25AM (#60086136) Homepage

    I'll just age this for 5 years...oh shit why is there a puddle in my basement?

    In all seriousness though, I wouldn't care if my beer was in paper as long as it was oxygen and light proof. That's why the can is superior to the bottle.

  • gas/diesel tractors.

    Marketing vs REAL solutions.
    • Taking this further, FF-based plastic does not add to the CO2 in the environment, EXCEPT when burned as part of 'bio-energy', or simply burning trash like Northern Europe does.
      So, the real problem with plastics is that ppl, actually nations. are not handling it well. In America, we are putting these in landfills, and/or recycling. In Asia, esp. Vietnam and CHina, they dump anywhere and everywhere, but esp. in the oceans. Chinese plastic is not only the most plastic, but it is the most in almost ALL oceans
  • Seriously, beer in lined carboard? Like cheap-ass wine? Screw that. Half of the reason I drink beer is so that I can get mad at someone and break a bottle over their head. Why are these a-holes trying to take that simple joy away?
  • The bonus is the bottle is potentially explosive, so the kids will love it.
  • by juniorkindergarten ( 662101 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @10:50AM (#60086606)
    What's wrong with glass? Totally recyclable. In Ontario the beer store takes back beer bottles, wine bottles, beer cans and cooler cans. If you paid a deposit when you bought it, then its refunded and recycled. There is no reason to sell plastic bottles anymore.
    Same thing can happen with pop bottles, charge a deposit and return. Pop in glass tastes better anyway. I remember buying pop in glass bottles into the 1980's.
    Get off my lawn!
    • Many years ago we used to wash the glass. And that uses a fair amount of fresh water but it is pretty cheap on energy.

      Now days, most of the glass gets broken and remelted. That uses a lot of energy. It takes significantly less energy to blow plastic than than does to mold glass.

    • Re:Glass (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Ed Tice ( 3732157 ) on Thursday May 21, 2020 @01:23PM (#60087168)
      I've posted this like nine times, but it breaks and causes injuries. It's banned in most venues.

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