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Medicine

We Should Prepare For a US Outbreak of Coronavirus, Not Because We May Feel Personally at Risk, But So That We Can Help Lessen the Risk For Everyone. (scientificamerican.com) 363

Zeynep Tufekci, writing for Scientific American: Preparing for the almost inevitable global spread of this virus, now dubbed COVID-19, is one of the most pro-social, altruistic things you can do in response to potential disruptions of this kind. We should prepare, not because we may feel personally at risk, but so that we can help lessen the risk for everyone. We should prepare not because we are facing a doomsday scenario out of our control, but because we can alter every aspect of this risk we face as a society. That's right, you should prepare because your neighbors need you to prepare -- especially your elderly neighbors, your neighbors who work at hospitals, your neighbors with chronic illnesses, and your neighbors who may not have the means or the time to prepare because of lack of resources or time.

Prepper and survivalist subcultures are often associated with doomsday scenarios and extreme steps: people stocking and hoarding supplies, building bunkers and preparing to go off the grid so that they may survive some untold catastrophe, brandishish weapons to guard their compound while their less prepared neighbors perish. All this appears both extreme and selfish, and, to be honest, a little nutty -- just check the title of the TV series devoted to the subculture: Doomsday Preppers, implying, well, a doomsday and the few prepared individuals surviving in a war-of-all-against-all world. It also feels like a scam: there is no shortage of snake oil sellers who hope stoking such fears will make people buy more supplies: years' worth of ready-to-eat meals, bunker materials and a lot more stuff in various shades of camo. (The more camo the more doomsday feels, I guess!) The reality is that there is little point "preparing" for the most catastrophic scenarios some of these people envision. As a species, we live and die by our social world and our extensive infrastructure -- and there is no predicting what anybody needs in the face of total catastrophe. In contrast, the real crisis scenarios we're likely to encounter require cooperation and, crucially, "flattening the curve" of the crisis exactly so the more vulnerable can fare better, so that our infrastructure will be less stressed at any one time.

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We Should Prepare For a US Outbreak of Coronavirus, Not Because We May Feel Personally at Risk, But So That We Can Help Lessen t

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:07PM (#59776450)

    It's looking increasingly likely that the Olympics will be cancelled this year and many conferences and other events have already been cancelled. I'm looking forwared to a music festival this summer, but honestly expect it won't go forward.

    Japan just cancelled all school for month. Let that sink in for a minute.

    I've been slowly stockpiling food for the last month or so, in preparation for the sort of home confinements that have accompanied this virus around the world.

    I'd rather not be stuck in a long line of possibly infected just trying to pick up some grub. Best case scenario I eat cheaply for a couple months and save some money. Worst case scenario I can skip the panic buying season and just get what I need online or when things calm down.

    The US is intentionally not testing for COVID - 19 right not. There is community transmission in California and likely other places.

    One last thing to motivate you to stock up - the time between first major outbreak and home quarantine combined with a run on the supermarket is typically less than a week.

    • by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:48PM (#59776530) Journal

      Not to worry, the researchers have been gagged and a politician (Pence) has been put in charge. Replicating China's politically motivated response is sure to be successful.

    • by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:12AM (#59776582) Journal

      It's looking increasingly likely that the Olympics will be cancelled this year

      Why? If we make it to July and the disease isn't contained, then it will have already become endemic, and there will be no point in staying home. Maybe you'll get sick, but you might have gotten sick at home, too.

      It's not a zombie outbreak, it's just another flu.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:39AM (#59776662)

        Containment chances are already near zero.

        The point of staying home is to keep the spread as slow as possible so as not to overwhelm the hospitals. For every one that dies, more than one is saved by care. If the care system is swamped, deaths multiply.

        It's not "just" another flu. Yes, flu-like though possibly better at spreading. But with a death rate that appears to be 5-10x as high and no pre-existing immunity, the US could be looking at a 70% infection (around 200 million) that could result in over a million dead by this time next year within this country. Slowing it down could push some of that million beyond availability of a partially effective vaccine sometime in 2021.

        • Isn't the point of slowing down the spread also to 1) try to give them more time to develop, test and mass produce a vaccine, 2) make it to the summer when these things spread more anyway, and 3) have it hit after the pressures on medical services of the normal flu season have abated?

          • by e3m4n ( 947977 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @07:39AM (#59777190)

            I think we are fucked on a vaccine. Recent information is really starting to support the possibility that this virus was bio-engineered. I will post a link at the end.

            Unlike every other coronavirus to date, including SARS, this virus does not bind to the ACE2 receptor protein this was how SARS was contained. ACE2 does not exist in large quantities in humans. It is actually higher in asians and the region than European genetic decent. This virus instead binds to the enzyme furin. This is what makes HIV and Ebola so difficult to contain and target.

            There have also been documented cases where someone previously infected with COVID-19, testing positive again a month later. They are getting re-infected. That means there is no immunity to this virus or the immunity will be spotty. Each subsequent infection will weaken you more, based on another article I read a couple weeks ago. Something about people that were reinfected dying of heart failure.

            Here is the link on gene mutation.

            https://www.scmp.com/news/chin... [scmp.com]

            • by Jon Peterson ( 1443 ) <jon.snowdrift@org> on Friday February 28, 2020 @09:14AM (#59777384) Homepage

              "Recent information is really starting to support the possibility that this virus was bio-engineered. I will post a link at the end."

              Absolutely nothing in the link you posted supports the frankly daft hypothesis that this was bio-engineered.

            • by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:42PM (#59778178)

              This is what makes HIV and Ebola so difficult to contain and target.

              If this is coming from the sources you read, get better sources.

              What makes HIV difficult to "contain and target" is the extremely high mutation rate of the proteins that make up its envelope.

              What makes Ebola difficult to "contain and target" is the unknown reserve population - It has to live in some animal in Africa but not kill that anmial, and we don't know what that animal is so we can't take steps to isolate or exterminate the reserve population (think mosquito control to reduce malaria exposure). Currently bats are the best guess, but it's not proven yet.

              Also, testing positive again is not necessarily a re-infection. I test positive for the chicken pox virus. I was infected when I was 5, and it's extremely unlikely just got re-infected.

              Virology is much more complicated that the "it's a bioweapon!!!" articles imply.

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

          It's not "just" another flu. Yes, flu-like though possibly better at spreading. But with a death rate that appears to be 5-10x as high and no pre-existing immunity, the US could be looking at a 70% infection (around 200 million) that could result in over a million dead by this time next year within this country.

          I heard Dr. Sanjay Gupta (CNN medical correspondent) ask Trump about COVID-19 at his India press conference. Gupta mentioned that mortality rates with regular flu is about 0.1%, whereas COVID-19 is looking like 2% to 3% at this point. So, more like 20 to 30 times as high. Trump, true to form, disputed what an expert was telling him.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Cylix ( 55374 )

            Influenza mortality rate is around 0.05%...

            COVID-19 seems to be about 2.3% percent, but the largest number of cases are in China. They are not giving out a large number of details regarding infection and mortality rates.

            I wouldn't listen to CNN trash when the barest facts are available to you too.

            What Trump said was basically we have some of the best medical sources in the world and congress is working with him to ensure they have funding. They are going to do what it takes to do what they need to do.

            That

        • But with a death rate that appears to be 5-10x as high and no pre-existing immunity,

          This isn't exactly clear yet. The death rate is dropping as more cases are found.

          Those not ill enough to seek medical care were not counted initially. Stronger surveillance is catching more of those, and we seem to be moving towards roughly a flu-like death rate.

          Which isn't nothing, but it's also not as bad as it could be.

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        It all depends upon which country you are in. I am certain that Australia will have very few problems coping. People will go to the doctor at first hint of infection limiting spread, universal health care will mean treatment is prompt and complete and likely there will be very little disruption, apart from lots of rich Americans likely to try to hide out in Australia. This due to the USA porous southern border and loads of refugees on the other side and less the complete Mexican health care and this tied to

        • A quick google search shows Australia has less than 2000 ICU beds in 26 total units. Roughly 60,000 total hospital beds. For a population of 24 million.

          Exactly zero rich Americans will be fleeing to Australia to hide from the virus.

        • ...the USA porous southern border and loads of refugees on the other side and less the complete Mexican health care and this tied to significant pockets of poverty in the US where the contagion will fester and spread into surrounding areas. The EU faces a similar problem from across the Mediterranean...

          So by your scenario in the US and the EU, coronavirus hands nationalism another win.

        • It all depends upon which country you are in. I am certain that Australia will have very few problems coping. People will go to the doctor at first hint of infection limiting spread

          Hmm, I'm not sure you've thought that through. The last thing you want in an infection control scenario is people going to the doctor's surgery. That's what spreads the infection (and often amongst the people least able to deal with it). You want people to stay at home. Have you not noticed how it's been healthcare professionals who have been "responsible" for big jumps in confirmed cases in a variety of countries?

      • by Kokuyo ( 549451 )

        Just yesterday I sneered at someone who was berating people over "it's just another flu.". I said I never heard anyone actually say that...

        Thanks dude, I'm so glad you came along.

    • It's looking increasingly likely that the Olympics will be cancelled this year

      I'll take a pandemic every 2 years to kill the olympics permanently.

    • by phalse phace ( 454635 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:50AM (#59776822)

      The US is intentionally not testing for COVID - 19 right not. There is community transmission in California and likely other places.

      From what I've been reading, it's not that they're not testing for it, it's that there aren't enough test kits available and only 7 state and local health departments have the ability to screen for the virus [reuters.com].

      California only has 200 test kits for both diagnostic and surveillance purposes [latimes.com]. Hardly enough to test all 8,400 people they're currently monitoring [reuters.com] for the virus.

      And it's not helping that some of the test kits are producing inconclusive results [nytimes.com].

  • by schwit1 ( 797399 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:09PM (#59776454)

    Prepper priorities are around self sufficiency. Preppers are not stopping others from preparing. In fact they would prefer if others also prepared.

    What's selfish is people who fail to prepare and then expect others to take care of them.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by GigaplexNZ ( 1233886 )
      Many preppers are the opposite of self sufficiency. They hoard weapons and ammunition so they can more easily steal resources from other people. To be self sufficient they need to be able to grow their own food etc. Not just stockpile canned food and other supplies that aren't renewable.
      • by Arthur, KBE ( 6444066 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:40PM (#59776514)
        If you're "prepping" with the goal of robbing other people then you're part of the problem and not part of any solution. Don't conflate a "prepper" with people from that Discovery Channel show. That was something devised for entertainment to showcase an extreme fringe in order to promote a certain political narrative - ie. preppers are "southern" or "racist", etc. I live in an earthquake-prone area, and I prepare for this. That's not "extreme" or racist. I keep water, food, medical supplies on hand. I'm a member of my community CERT and a General-class HAM operator. I'm positioned to assist in the event of a disaster.
        • Just to add -- I don't care what race, creed, color, sexuality, political party, etc. you belong to. If my preparations can assist you, I'll give until I bleed.
      • To be self sufficient they need to be able to grow their own food etc. Not just stockpile canned food and other supplies that aren't renewable.

        My local People's Neighborhood Committee (aka HOA) won't allow gardening for food, just flowers. I would enjoy the irony of an apocalyptic situation in which I could steal their canned supplies with my firearm and hoard of ammo.

      • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @04:39AM (#59776904) Journal
        You don’t need to be self-sufficient indefinitely, unless you’re prepping for the end of days. Even if you just lay in supplies for a couple of weeks, you’ll be better prepared than most, and far less likely to be a burden on disaster relief or your better prepared neighbours.
      • I believe you've confused the term 'preppers' with 'bandits'. One easy to remember clue, 'preppers' comes from the word 'prepare' as in 'readiness'.

        YW HIH

  • Build a wall ?
    • Is the wall to keep us in, or keep others out?
    • and make the coronavirus pay for it?

  • I'm prepared (Score:5, Insightful)

    by apoc.famine ( 621563 ) <apoc.famine@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:11PM (#59776464) Journal

    I'm relatively healthy, eat decently, work out enough to not be a total blob, I have a ton of sick days I can take, I'm pretty good at staying hydrated, and I wash my hands often.

    That's it. Done. Prepared for COVIS-19. There is literally nothing else I can do.

    It's a bad flu if you're old, and an easy cold if you're young. Masks won't keep you from getting it, hand sanitizer only works in the lab, and unless you're willing to bug out to your survival cabin in Montana, you're probably going to get it and be fine.

    Unless you're 65+, preparing for an outbreak means going about your life like normal.

    • Re:I'm prepared (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:35PM (#59776508)

      When the quarantine orders come slamming down on you, do you have enough food stockpiled to get through? In China, the word came down and no one was allowed to leave their home, not even to go shopping for food. Not that there would be anything available at the stores anyway, since their employees and the trucks coming into the city were shutdown too.

    • Re:I'm prepared (Score:5, Informative)

      by i'm probably drunk ( 6159770 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:46PM (#59776526)

      Today a 23 year old Iranian female soccer player died from it [alarabiya.net], so younger/healthier people aren't necessarily out of the woods.

      • Mod this up! Plenty of "healthy" doctors dying too. It seems a mask and protective gear isn't enough for this virus as it aerosolizes, goes around your face shield/glasses and into your eyes. If we are in a voluntary-quarantine situation you'll want a full face n99 mask, gloves and disposable outer clothing before heading to Walmart to buy food.
        • by Kokuyo ( 549451 )

          I like how you put the word healthy in quotes. I'd say the dead doctors in China were worked to death. The virus was probably just cleaning up the remains, so to speak.

    • he needs you to come in on Saturday,... and Sunday.
      So best of luck with those sick days.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    • The article is saying something different. It says that even though healthy people are at little risk of dying from Coronavirus, they (we) can help minimize deaths among the more vulnerable by minimizing contact - that is, simply staying home as much as possible - to prevent it from getting around. So the preparation for us is to stock up on whatever normally makes us go among other people. Now is too early to start avoiding contact, but a good time to prepare for it.
    • by Cylix ( 55374 )

      Pneumonia can get the best of them, but that isn't the point of preparing.

      See, if a massive outbreak happens it can disrupt everyday life and well really everyone else will freak out around you. It doesn't take much for your local stores to run dry.

      You don't have to go out today and buy perishables that you won't use, but it doesn't hurt to pad your cupboard. At the very worst, you have purchased some things that will last and won't go to waste.

    • by antdude ( 79039 )

      Or have a weak immune system like mine. :(

    • It's a bad flu if you're old, and an easy cold if you're young.

      That's not at all clear. 20% of all cases need medical intervention, and this is roughly as contagious as the flu. It's not that any particular case is likely to be lethal which makes this a threat. What makes it a threat is the potential to overburden our medical system and cause it to begin to fail. The risk here is communal. The solution is equally so (presuming a vaccine can be developed quickly). We need to try to contain it immediately, or things may get very problematic. Nothing's simple with this si

  • ...and He doesn't care about your ammo.

  • by SirAstral ( 1349985 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:20PM (#59776478)

    Look... how long as this been in the news? Since the beginning of the year right?

    The only thing Covid-19 has taught us is the following..

    Governments do not care... until the economy is hurt.
    Which is funny because it is exactly the fear of the economy being damaged that causes governments to downplay the risks leading to far more fucking damage than would have happened if procedures had been taken.

    People... they don't give a shit neither. You can blame it on multiple things.
    You can blame it on Businesses that do not give people sick leave.
    You can blame it on people that still go to work sick... even when they have sick leave.
    You can blame it on people that just do not give a single fucking fuck about fuck.

    Put all of that together in a world where you can travel to 7 different locations in the world in a week while you are not even showing symptoms?

    Well we do not have a chance... and never had one. We are watching the beginning stages of a pandemic unfold and watching governments try to minimize the impact by lying to people and trying to control information to stave off panic when they are only going to ensure greater panic later. It is so damn typical of people to create the very problems they want to prevent. It's the pinnacle of irony.

  • by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:21PM (#59776480) Homepage
    Coronavirus articles:

    Americans should prepare for Coronavirus crisis in U.S., CDC says. [nbcnews.com]

    Coronavirus far more likely than SARS to bond to human cells due to HIV-like mutation, scientists say. [scmp.com]

    Ideas:

    Avoid being near other people.

    Stay away from hospitals and other medical care facilities!

    Don't go to an airport.

    Get groceries from a restaurant supply store (Smart FoodService here) rather than a grocery store (WinCo here)? Why? Fewer people.

    Stay away from groups of people.

    Avoid going to stores?

    If very serious in your city, stay away from the library?


    Stay home where the air is clean.

    Check on the house air flow system. Use an excellent air filter. Check if the filter is completely sealed.

    Order more house air flow filters.

    Wash our hands a lot.

    Have plenty of every kind of food at home.


    More ideas? Do you have any more ideas for protecting ourselves from the Coronavirus?
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:28PM (#59776490)

    I totally agree with the idea we should all be prepared, generally for any random event so that we can be self-sufficient for some time and take away burden from emergency responders.

    So then they question is, how do you prepare for some particular near term event that you know specifics of?

    For something like a large scale viral outbreak for example, it seems very unlikely that basic services will go down - so probably water/power would stay up. That right off the bat eliminates a lot of stuff you might buy for something like a hurricane.

    More a problem would be food if distribution starts to slow down or break, so just try to stock up with things you can easily get in bulk, like rice, or maybe even those 15 day emergency meal packs (which you should try one of after you get them to make sure you can even tolerate to eat them).

    Basically just anything you can do, in the event that it would be possible to minimize going anywhere and thus reducing exposure to any viruses. Keep cars gassed up, get extras of most things you use frequently.

    Also just a great thing to do generally, spend some time trying to break any habit of touching your face with your hands when out doing things. Or at least be conscious of doing so, which means later you'll have more control over what is normally an automatic action that can infect you.

  • by JillElf ( 1896776 ) on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:31PM (#59776494)

    Having enough food in the house to feed your family for a couple of weeks is generally a good idea. Buy a couple of extra cans of this and that when they are on sale, then rotate them in your pantry using the oldest first. You can slowly build up a cushion without panic buying or blowing the budget. Make sure that you have batteries\toilet paper\basic first aid supplies, once again, stock up when they are on sale. If you have an emergency generator, test it according to the manufacturers instructions. You might want to invest in a small solar powered charger to keep your cellphone working. It's not that hard to do and it is a reasonable thing to do. Just like having an evacuation plan if you live on a flood zone, a hurricane zone, or near potentially hazardous site (petrochemical plants come to mind), basic stuff that most of us can do. No it won't save you during an apocalypse, but it will probably make riding out the smaller stuff a lot more pleasant.

  • Preparing for the almost inevitable global spread of this virus, now dubbed COVID-19, is one of the most pro-social, altruistic things you can do in response to potential disruptions of this kind.

    This is getting weird and out of hand. I understand that people get freaked out about diseases, but this is insane to drum up worry and hysteria for career advancement or profiteering opportunities. Fuck corona. I don't give a shit about corona. Anyone falling into this trap of horror-hype can stay in the trap.

  • Priorities (Score:5, Insightful)

    by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:01AM (#59776554)
    How about make the test free. Because with millions of uninsured and underinsured, none of them are able to pay the $3200 to see if they are positive and instead go on to infect others. In normal countries it’s free for exactly this reason.

    How about better worker rights for sick days? Because after you can’t afford a $3200 test there is no way you’re gonna get fired for not showing up on time so you suck it up and head to that retail or food service job.

    People need to learn that the “fk you got mine” attitude blows up in everyone’s face and we ALL wind up paying massive costs down the road just to avoid the most basic social services.
    • Name a single country where the test is free and available for Joe Hypochondriac to just walk in and say "ok, I'm here for my free test, Dr!". You're spouting bullshit. Seeing Bernie Bros all over this like vultures pushing bullshit "but muh workers!" nonsense is pretty silly, and I'm actually for a reasonable universal health care system in the US.
      • Re: Priorities (Score:5, Informative)

        by Malc ( 1751 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:11AM (#59776790)

        The UK is working on this. Three weeks ago they had 12 labs capable of testing 1,000 people per day. No doubt they'll be ramping this up further. And the testing is free at the point of delivery due to the wonders of something called the National Health Service.

      • by Calydor ( 739835 )

        To just walk in randomly? Hell no, they're actively advising that if you suspect you have the virus, GO NOWHERE and instead call your doctor.

        Not sure about what exactly happens at that point, but probably someone comes to you to do the test, because the VERY LAST THING you want to do is send everyone potentially infected to a main gathering place for everyone who's sick.

  • by MetricT ( 128876 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:02AM (#59776556)

    As a prepper, the most important thing you can have on your side, isn't food or water or ammo. It's people. It's the crazy loner living in a bunker that'll die when the shit hits the fan. People can rebuild a community and help each other survive a lot better than a pile of ammo.

    And if you want them to take care of you, you have to take care of them too. That behooves you to think of others. Not is doing so the moral and decent thing to do, it's also happens to be the correct thing to do from the viewpoint of enlightened self-interest.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      That works until someone in gov, the mil, a local community asks to share in the "care".
      Using a van, a truck to gather all that "care" going house to house..
  • by PrimaryConsult ( 1546585 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:04AM (#59776560)

    Very simple shopping list for Coronavirus:
    -rice, canned goods (veggies, legumes, soup, meat, etc), frozen foods
    -extra toilet paper, shaving/shower supplies, dish soap, cleanings supplies, etc
    -insure gas in your car stays topped off

    There, you're set for Coronavirus, have stuff you can use even if nothing happens, and most importantly if there is a problem you aren't outside during the panic phase of the disaster where people are driving store to store like maniacs and brawling over the last can of beans. It's also a bit altruistic: you won't be using what limited remaining supplies are available to the public, since you have your own, leaving more for everyone else.

    If you overbuy and Coronavirus has fizzled out, donate the extra food to a 'feed the homeless' program.

    P.S. If you want to be ready for other disasters like storms, power outages, and Flint, MI, add in:
    -solar powered phone charger
    -fire extinguisher
    -a $30 camping stove (and butane or propane as required). Note: open a window if using this indoors so you don't die of CO poisoning
    -Jugs of water and Brita filters
    -some form of weapon in case it's serious enough that there's rioting and looting

  • by thesjaakspoiler ( 4782965 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:07AM (#59776566)

    I'm an American, not a Samaritan.
    I feel there's a profit to be made here....

    • Great there is always money to be made from fear (or political hay.) Stock market tanking you can either buy the dip or start shorting. Better to be seeing opportunity than running in fear.
  • by An0nYm0u5c0wArD ( 6251996 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:37AM (#59776658)

    Prepare some sort of official-looking signage/banner with hazard tape to put on the outside of your house, advising to stay away due to quarantined hazardous occupants. Then, if looting starts, you can put that on your house to try to discourage people from approaching.

    • At the end of WW II, women in Berlin used makeup to create fake smallpox spots, in hope of avoiding rape by Russians.

  • A friend of mine in the US was telling me that it costs $3200 to be tested for coronavirus - it's easy to fall into a conspiracy thought track when you're concerned about your own health but need to fork out this amount for peace of mind - what a money making machine too! Conversely, my 6 year old went to hospital a couple of weeks ago with severe cold like symptoms - we never considered coronavirus but they tested him for it as a matter of the course anyway (Europe.)
  • We're good (Score:5, Funny)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Friday February 28, 2020 @04:49AM (#59776910)

    Pence prayed for us.

  • So if you are gonna prevent a virus outbreak in the US, what do you plan to do with the potential millions of uninsured who could contract the virus? I wonder what the Pence plan is...

  • HAHAHA (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rikkards ( 98006 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @05:41AM (#59776970) Journal

    Looking at the attitude of the US for healthcare of being "Fuck You I got mine", this won't happen

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Friday February 28, 2020 @06:29AM (#59777062)

    Especially in a country with the creed of "Screw you, I got mine" and "I do what I want and if it kills you, sucks to be you".

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

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