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Mars NASA

NASA Consultant 'Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s' (ibtimes.com) 69

Posted by EditorDavid from the discovered-by-Vikings dept.
"A consultant for NASA slammed the agency for deliberately ignoring the results of the experiment he handled that showed signs of alien life on Mars," reports the International Business Times. "According to the consultant, NASA refuses to conduct new life-detection tests on the Red Planet." Engineer Gilbert Levin served as a principal investigator on NASA's Viking missions, which sent two identical landers to Mars. For his role, Levin handled the missions' biological experiments known as Labeled Release (LR). These experiments focused on identifying living microorganisms on Mars. The experiments were sent to the Red Planet through the Viking 1 and Viking 2 missions in 1975....

"As the experiment progressed, a total of four positive results, supported by five varied controls, streamed down from the twin Viking spacecraft landed some 4,000 miles apart," Levin wrote in Scientific American. "The data curves signaled the detection of microbial respiration on the Red Planet," he continued. "The curves from Mars were similar to those produced by LR tests of soils on Earth. It seemed we had answered that ultimate question."

Despite the results of the LR experiment, the findings were discarded by NASA due to the agency's previous experiment on Mars.
More from Levin's article in Scientific American: Life on Mars seemed a long shot. On the other hand, it would take a near miracle for Mars to be sterile. NASA scientist Chris McKay once said that Mars and Earth have been "swapping spit" for billions of years, meaning that, when either planet is hit by comets or large meteorites, some ejecta shoot into space. A tiny fraction of this material eventually lands on the other planet, perhaps infecting it with microbiological hitch-hikers.
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NASA Consultant 'Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s' More

NASA Consultant 'Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s'

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  • Perchlorates ? (Score:5, Informative)

    by dargaud ( 518470 ) <[ten.duagradg] [ta] [2todhsals]> on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:54AM (#59304818) Homepage
    IIRC those results were discarded because of the discovery of perchlorates in the soil of Mars, and those compounds gave off false positives in the respiration-detection tests.

    • Re:Perchlorates ? (Score:5, Funny)

      by flyingfsck ( 986395 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:17AM (#59304842)
      Come-on, don't spoil a good story with facts.

      • Re:Perchlorates ? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:28PM (#59305900)

        I personally have had enough with conspiracy theories, and people claiming there is a deep coverup, for every little thing, where there is often a reasonable reaction for it, and its original results is indeed documented.

        The scientific process is actually a well defined processed and should be rigidly followed. News articles to sell papers love to show the Hypothesis of the day, sometimes call it a theory, but that isn't real science just the first step in the process. There is fiction that confuses scientists with Inventors and Engineers who use the results from science to make things.

        Unfortunately there is push to make everything entertaining. However most things which are interesting may not be entertaining. Oh look these results came positive, however they found something that may mess with these results, so we cannot take these results as factual.

        Actual conspiracies in the world when uncovered seem pale to the fiction, where usually after someone did something wrong. They conspiracy is often getting a small group of individuals to not talk about it. These grand conspiracies, that needs thousands of people to keep quite about a nefarious deeds for decades, for them to keep this information hidden to their death bed is implausible, as chances are there is going to be a small percentage of people who will not be able to live with such a guilt, or at least want to brag about it.

        • I personally have had enough with conspiracy theories, and people claiming there is a deep coverup, for every little thing

          I know it. It's almost like there's some sort of conspiracy going on.

          • Not so much a conspiracy. Entertainment brings in money, conspiracy theories are entertaining, as it is made in a way that everything is a complex puzzle to put together. The problem is too many people fall into believing them, and basing their world view around the idea there are groups of people actively trying to make their lives miserable. When people fall into believing them, they will work and spend resources to spread it, as they feel this is important information that must be spread.

            I remember th

        • This is simply wrong.

          First off, it does not matter what the truth is in this case, it is still a rather shaking "conspiracy". Either their is a good chance we discovered life on mars decades ago, or NASA hires unreliable, unstable, and downright stupid scientists to work in major roles in billion dollar projects. Either of these are rather interesting stories.

          As for conspiracies in general. Since we have undeniable proof that MKUltra exists, their is every reason to believe that other conspiracies involving

      • That's not a fact though. The perchlorate theory is just that, a theory. Some other probe somewhere else entirely looking at some entirely different soil saw something that in theory may have fooled the LR test.

        As with most of these mysteries the fact of the matter is that we don't really know why those tests produced those results.

    • perchlorates (that's how I make my coffee), is that the Martian version of "weather balloons"?

      Didn't a couple of those perchlorates crash their vehicle out there in New Mexico?

    • Re:Perchlorates ? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dex22 ( 239643 ) <plasticuser@nOSpam.gmail.com> on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:36AM (#59304872) Homepage

      Except there was a control, and a heat cycle to stop the tagged releases, and they would have behaved a particular way if it was perchlorates, and it didn't. So, it most likely wasn't perchlorates and organic activity is still the likeliest option.

      If it was something that simple, you'd think the Principal Investigator would have considered that?

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Viol8 ( 599362 )

        Except perchlorates are pretty nasty oxidising agents that tend to destroy most biological molecules PQD so if there is any life in the martial soil its rather different to earth life and therefor its unlikely any test for earth type life would even work.

      • From what I remember ultimately the results were deemed inconclusive not definitively no life. The conditions of the experiment were such that a definitive answer was unlikely with that experimental setup. NASA would need to conduct a different experiment taking into account the soil parameters. But that would take another rover and more resources. Priorities at NASA then changed so Mars was left alone for decades.

    • Re: Perchlorates ? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RockDoctor ( 15477 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:39AM (#59304878) Journal
      The LR (Labelled Release) experiment was successful - it showed that something in Martian soil would cause the Release of Labelled (C-14 rich) CO2 from a substrate rich in Labelled non-volatile carbon compounds (saccarides, sugars). The experimental design did not take into consideration the idea that there may be non-organic ways of doing this. What the designers thought was a respiration-detection experiment was actually an oxidation-detection experiment. Which is a zebra of a different colour.
    • That explanation is exactly what the perchlorates want you to believe!

  • The soil chemistry wrecked the experiment design. (Score:5, Informative)

    by RockDoctor ( 15477 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:32AM (#59304864) Journal
    Every years or two this experiment re-surfaces - a new book, video, whatever - that again tries to ignore the pervasive presence of perchlorate (Ohhh! Alliteration!) in Martian soils, as discovered in 2008. When mineral soils including a fraction of perchlorate are mixed with radio-labelled sugars, radio-labelled CO2 is released, replicating the Viking experiments. This story has been over for a decade. It is an ex-story. It has ceased to be. It has fallen off it's perch and gone to join the Circular-file Immortal. Etc etc squawk!

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by dex22 ( 239643 )

      Yes, and the releases would continue after the sterilization heat cycle, but they stopped, and perchlorates aren't destroyed at 160C.

      The perchlorates were also equally exposed to samples helpt in the dark, and did not cause labeled releases...

      Perchlorates sound like an explanation, but they don't match all the behaviors seen.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by barakn ( 641218 )

        Perchlorate decomposition is exothermic, suggesting there is an activation hill which could be shortened by a catalyst, thus lowering the decomp temperature minimum. The presence of a non-biological catalyst in a complex soil sample can't be ruled out. Also, there's some suggestion that superoxides might have been involved instead of perchlorates, and superoxides are less stable at elevated temperatures. You are also curiously silent about the failure of the addition of second and third nutrient solution

      • What if the Martians pooped perchlorates?

        • Then the average energy per bond of their biochemistry would have been ... something pretty high. High enough to tear apart most other chemical bonds.

          One of the less-often used procedures for getting a mineral sample into solution for analysis (back in the wet lab days, before you could do heavier atoms by X-Ray Fluor), was to fuse your sample with perchlorate - sodium or potassium - because the perchlorate rips electrons out of most other bonds with gay abandon, leaving ions that go into solution.

          Somethi

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Nah, it has achieved immortality in the Conspiracy Universe, where no idea is too stupid to die.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by morcego ( 260031 )

      That Monty Python reference saved my say. Thank you, kind sir.

    • Discoveries made in 2008 are not an explanation for decisions made in the mid 1970s.
      • You can have an event in year X, which is only explained by discoveries made in year X+some.

        The Viking landers had a finite set of experiments and a finite lifetime. If some of the experiments produced anomalous (unexpected) results you record the results and continue with the planned schedule of experiments in order to complete the programme. You don't stop and haver, scratching heads and arseholes, because you don't know if your tool is going to continue to work to complete the programme.

        Once your sched

  • Paranoid idiot (Score:5, Interesting)

    by locater16 ( 2326718 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:38AM (#59304874)
    Some paranoid idiot with dementia. NASA fully acknowledges the tests looked promising and has been going back ever since and trying to figure out more. So far the search for life on Mars is merely inconclusive, and some reporter just took advantage of this delusional old man to get a few clicks on an article.

  • Let's assume that someone comes up with a definitive test for life, a test that one could not dispute, and nothing is found. All that will happen is someone will claim that even though nothing was found in one sample this doesn't disprove that there isn't life somewhere else on the planet.

    Now, let's assume this indisputable test does find life. Then someone will come along and say that there can't be just one kind of organism, let's find more!

    Then, going back a step, comes what kind of tests could be run to rule out life on Mars. No matter what kind of tests are run there will be someone that wants to run some other kind of test.

    If life is found then what should we do? There will be one group that doesn't want to disturb this life, claiming we have no right to potentially destroy this life with our experiments. There's another that will want to study these lifeforms, up close.

    The best means to find life, or study whatever life is found, is sending people there to run the experiments. By doing this we run the risk of contaminating the experiments. It's possible that we already have.

    I don't know how finding life on Mars changes anything. We should still plan to send people there to explore.

  • Wait...sorry, that was an episode of The West Wing back in 2003.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by necro81 ( 917438 )

      Wait...sorry, that was an episode of The West Wing back in 2003.

      Hahahaha: to consider a time when (the vice president) having a mistress would have been something able to force his resignation.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • They had 11 felonies that Bill Clinton had committed, if you can imagine if Pelosi had 11 felonies that Trump had committed what political pressure she would be under to impeach Trump then you can possibly get the picture of why they impeached Clinton. The speaker may not have wanted to but he was under pressure. I will try and avoid more political comment, this is just historical context.

      • Hahahaha: to consider a time when (the vice president) having a mistress would have been something able to force his resignation.

        How far back are we going? FDR has his mistress at his inauguration. Didn't seem to hurt his popularity at all.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by geek ( 5680 )

          Hahahaha: to consider a time when (the vice president) having a mistress would have been something able to force his resignation.

          How far back are we going? FDR has his mistress at his inauguration. Didn't seem to hurt his popularity at all.

          JFK had his mistress sing happy birthday to him in a stadium with his wife and children watching.

          Bill Clinton has his wife disparage his mistress on public TV then later admitted to fucking her with a cigar.

  • Scientific American has become a conspiracy rag now?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      They have fallen a long way since the days of The Amateur Scientist column. [wikipedia.org]

      • In 1999 (I believe) there was an article in SA on the Y2K problem. It essentially claimed that no matter how much money was spent, January 1 2000 would be a disaster. When January rolled around, I realized that SA had drunk the kool-aid. (I kind of figured that before then, but I couldn't be sure I wasn't the dupe.)

        When I was a teenager, my grandfather gave me an apple box full of SAs from the 50s and 60s; it was perhaps the best present I ever got. I spent hours reading them (and yes, the Amateur Scien

  • From the geographic features, we know Mars had an atmosphere similar to Earth in the past. We assume it somehow (mostly) disappeared. What is the simplest answer to what happened to it's atmosphere? Nothing happened to the atmosphere of Mars. Our assumption that it doesn't have one is wrong. mars9psi.com

    • Uh no. We know what happened to the atmosphere on Mars. People are so ignorant when it comes to basic Science.

    • From what I know solar winds stripped most of it. On Earth the magnetic field generated by the core have shielded the planet. Mars does not have a strong magnetic core.

  • I'm getting a visual, Jim...and uh...I think the doctor can best describe it to you.

    Just give him a damn car analogy! You're the Science Officer! Beam him back up here for quarantine procedures and penicillin shots. What do you mean we're running low on supplies?

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  • The British physicist and author Paul Davies wrote about this in The Eerie Silence. I can't remember what he did or did not say about perchlorates, but I will check.

    The book is well worth reading if you have any interest in SETI/METI or abiogenesis. He really brings up a lot of interesting ways of looking at the problem.

    It is hard to understand how anything alive could survive the harsh low pressure cold of Mars and the lack of any food, but I think it might be worth at least doing some experiments to look

  • This is OLD news (Score:3)

    by mschaffer ( 97223 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @08:44AM (#59305226)

    This result was made public long ago and many times since 1976 (even Levin published this in 1997. http://www.icamsr.org/mtlp_cha... [icamsr.org])
    Just because Scientific American wrote another article about this result out of context doesn't make it new or notable.

  • That's OK (Score:3)

    by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Monday October 14, 2019 @08:46AM (#59305234)
    He can be convinced about whatever he wants. The thing is, the conclusive, unambiguous evidence is not there. That's what matter, not what he - or anyone else - believes.

    • is that there should be follow-up missions containing his "chiral labeled release" method to give a more definite answer up or down.

      Wasn't there a British spacecraft containing such a thing that crash landed, preventing completion of such tests?

      Levin has been nagging whoever will listen that NASA don't, not gonna perform any follow-up life experiments on the basis "waste of time, already did the test and it was negative." Not doing more experiments is not good science.

      • Repeating expensive tests that already proved negative isn't good science. There isn't an infinite number of experiments you can cram onto a lander.

  • Here is the International news [theinfovalley.com] site you can see world-class news.
  • The interesting question is not necessarily whether there is currently life on Mars, but whether there has ever been life on it.

  • I'm old eough to remember when this happened. "The tests came back positive, but further kibitzing suggested there could be non-biogical reasons", and so you'd need further testing.

    At that point I invented the idea of pre-assuming a test result is positive, rip the hell out of it looking for holes, then address them before sending it on a billion dollar mission.

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