New York City Orders Mandatory Measles Vaccinations in Brooklyn (providencejournal.com) 322
"New York City officials on Tuesday declared a public health emergency and ordered mandatory measles vaccinations" in an area where most of the state's 285 measles cases have occurred. The Washington Post reports:
New York's mandatory vaccination order in four Brooklyn zip codes is by far the toughest action to date by state or local officials, as the disease's tally grows to 465 cases in 19 states. Officials there and elsewhere have sought to bar unvaccinated children from schools and other public places but have had limited success... The mandate orders all unvaccinated people in four zip codes to receive inoculations, including children as young as 6 months. Anyone who resists faces a misdemeanor charge and could be fined up to $1,000.
Long-time Slashdot reader Major Blud shares a BBC report that under the order, "any person living in the affected areas who has not been vaccinated must be immunised within 48 hours."
Long-time Slashdot reader Major Blud shares a BBC report that under the order, "any person living in the affected areas who has not been vaccinated must be immunised within 48 hours."
end the nonsense (Score:4, Informative)
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I wish the mayor would actually call them out as morons.
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While satisfying, and true, it would not be productive. There's no better way to set a man's opinions in concrete than to call him an idiot for having them.
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I was shocked by this claim, but found this article on the problem among Orhodox Jews in the Brooklyn.
https://www.vox.com/science-an... [vox.com]
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I never figured the heebs for being anti vax.
They are also anti foreskin (that God gave them) for no particular good reason.
Re:end the nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
There are some people who literally can't get vaccinations for real medical reasons, and while I'm sure that these people can probably provide proof to show that is the case, I find it interesting that the summary said that "Anyone who resists faces a fine", and not "Anyone without a valid medical exemption who resists faces a fine".
Technically speaking, these people endanger the lives of others too.
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Fair enough. But don't marginalize "right to liberty". These edge cases are not an excuse to trump on "right to liberty", they are edge cases that are exceptions to the rational point, and they are a slipper slope that should be debated, not shunned and marginalized as "fuck your liberty, you're killing my child, oh think of the children".
If you really care about children fucking shut down pizza companies
Re: end the nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
Fixing one does not mean we cant work on fixing the other too.
Nobody is putting my 3 months old baby life at risk by eating pizza and Im free to decide myself if my older kids should or should not eat pizza. With measles Im not free to make that choice.
The big problem I see with this whole thing is that its taking away my freedom to make those good/bad choice and let some random dude make them for me. At least the governement is somewhat accountable vs an anti vaxer mom.
Easy there control freak (Score:3)
Re: end the nonsense (Score:5, Informative)
Re: end the nonsense (Score:2, Interesting)
A slap on the wrist? My uncle got caught once, lost his drivers license for 6 months, had to goto 30 AA meetings in 30 days. Then had to do 60 hours community service. Total cost: 20,000k out of his pocket in fines and lawyer fees.
Slap on the wrist my ass.
Re: end the nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
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So a guy has a drinking problem and disrespect for the law and you condemn him to struggling mobility. I do wonder what happens when he loses that job that he can't get to, I'm sure he'll remain an upstanding citizen from that point forward.
That's the amazing thing about the USA. In most parts of the world when people hit rock bottom they are rehabilitated and bought back to society. In the USA we make sure to try and kick them in the face whenever they get up. Then we wonder why these people are anti-socia
Alcohol-related deaths down (Score:2, Interesting)
Impaired driving kills a lot of people. Over the last decade, chemical-impaired driving deaths have changed little, but the ratio of chemicals involved has changed.
Cannabis, which is becoming far more socially acceptable than it used to be, is replacing alcohol as a primary factor of impaired-driving crashes. The last traffic safety conference I attended had a break-out session on impairments, and cannabis is now involved in MORE crashes now than alcohol.
Re:Alchttps://science.slasohol-related deaths down (Score:4, Insightful)
Really? Seriously? I'd like to see some backup on that.
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Cannabis traces stays in the blood for a about a month, showing up in blood tests. So you smoked a joint the other day, get killed in an accident and blood work shows cannabis by products in blood, so marijuana related accident.
It's very hard to tell if someone is/was actually marijuana impaired with sobriety tests seeming the best and hard to do when someone is unconscious, concussed, or dead.
Re:Alcohol-related deaths down (Score:5, Interesting)
I think you may be mixing up percentage driving under the influence with percentage involved in fatal crashes. From the study in the first link in your Google search:
The proportion of persons driving under the influence of alcohol is estimated at 2.1% (95% CI: 1.4–2.8) and under the influence of cannabis at 3.4% (2.9%-3.9%). Drivers under the influence of alcohol are 17.8 times (12.1–26.1) more likely to be responsible for a fatal accident , and the proportion of fatal accidents which would be prevented if no drivers ever exceeded the legal limit for alcohol is estimated at 27.7% (26.0%-29.4%). Drivers under the influence of cannabis multiply their risk of being responsible for causing a fatal accident by 1.65 (1.16–2.34) , and the proportion of fatal accidents which would be prevented if no drivers ever drove under the influence of cannabis is estimated at 4.2% (3.7%-4.8%).
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"Alcohol involved" as at least one person at the scene was impaired.
"Speed related" because if the old person were driving slower he might not have crashed.
"Following too closely" as if the old person left more space, he might h
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Alcoholic crashes involve people falling asleep. It's weariness that is the problem (and, of course, for a small fraction of people, alcohol makes them weary).
Falling asleep (behind the wheel or otherwise) due to alcohol consumption only happens to someone who is really blasted. Your ability to drive is affected well before you drink that much. From this article: [nhtsa.gov]
Alcohol is a substance that reduces the function of the brain, impairing thinking, reasoning and muscle coordination. All these abilities are essential to operating a vehicle safely.
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That's right. Our society does not value human life. It does value scurrying away and forcing people to do or not do something out of fear. Alcohol is fun! So it gets a pass.
Pathetic that Dunbal talks of children's hospitals and measles. A tiny, tiny number compared to the number of children that are born and have to live inferior lives due to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or worse, the otherwise healthy babies that don't make it to term and are not counted at all. But he does not care. Alcohol is fun!
Same with g
Re: end the nonsense (Score:2)
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Kids are people too.
Re: end the nonsense (Score:3)
The difference, of course, is that one can drink responsibility, and be a responsible gun owner. Whereas there is no practical way to be a responsible unvaccinated person.
The only exception would be for you to isolate yourself completely from other human beings ... but if you do that, you won't be subject to our laws anyway. So go right ahead.
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If we're going to let them in by the tens of thousands, we really should vaccinate them at the border.
Mexico has a higher measles vaccination rate than America [worldbank.org].
So it is the south-bound Americans who need to be vaccinated at the border.
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Yep, once we seal the border to the red states, we need to keep a tight watch on it.
Re: end the nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Calm down. From the article:
There are no strictures against vaccines in the Jewish religion and the overwhelming majority of American Jews are vaccinated. The reasons for the explosion of cases among members of insular, ultra-orthodox communities has more to do with their frequent contacts with Israel, which is undergoing its own measles crisis, combined with their insularity and general mistrust of government, say health officials.
In addition, a misinformation campaign, including phone calls, voice mails and pamphlets has targeted the community, say health officials and immunization advocates. One widely distributed booklet not only cites various rabbis questioning the obligation to vaccinate children, but also advances anecdotes and statistics in an attempt to connect vaccinations to physical harm and death.
[bold emphasis mine]
Re: end the nonsense (Score:2)
Forced-vax Nazis sure do love stomping pious Jews under the iron boot of the police state.
Where have we seen this before?...
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YOU DO NOT ENDANGER OTHERS IF YOU ARE NOT VACCINATED. You endanger yourself; it's to train your immune system. Yes, you could carry and spread it to other people WHO ARE NOT VACCINATED.
So people who refuse get sick and die because of their own decisions. That is the way it should be. Furthermore, remove the idiot warning labels on plastic bags etc.
Get away with this and you open up the door for future corrupt politicians to force things into your body against your will. Colon cancer is a real problem in the USA, why don't they force cameras up our colons while they are at it? (yes obviously you volunteer for that under the right conditions because who wants to die of that? but it's your choice and not a 1 size fits all policy which easily can be done 10x as much just to give more money to a lobby group.)
You think they just die in their homes? No. They go to some of the most expensive healthcare facilities in the world to be treated (i.e. NYC and USA in general), and ultimately costs our health system through resource utilization and direct/indirect costs that could be spent in far better ways..
Re:Do you know what Vaccination is? (Score:4, Insightful)
>"and ultimately costs our health system through resource utilization and direct/indirect costs that could be spent in far better ways.."
I will preface by saying I think it is crazy to not get vaccinations. And I certainly support developing them, making them available, and strongly encouraging their use through education. But your logic can easily lead to government control (banning or compulsory action) over just about anything- motorcycle driving, eating sugar, drinking alcohol, walking alone at night, having children, construction work, swimming, bicycling, having unprotected sex, using a mobile phone when not seated, most competitive sports, obsessively playing video games, using power tools, etc.
Everything we do has some amount of risk- and taking some risks is what makes live worth living. We can't have a free society if the argument that anything people do affects "other people" due to healthcare "direct and indirect costs" prevails. It is a very dangerous path- it can put too much power in the hands of not only government, but also private insurance companies.
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"If we regulate vaccines, we'll lose all our freedoms and become just like North Korea."
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> "If we regulate vaccines, we'll lose all our freedoms and become just like North Korea."
This is not regulation of vaccines. If we compel people, at gunpoint (which ultimately what laws are), do to things they don't want, that don't directly harm other people (but might harm other people who choose not to do things they don't want to do), we have certainly lost a freedom and entered a mindset that the government can compel anything because "scary".
Up next- somehow speech is violence. You can say thing
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Have you heard of Typhoid Mary?
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Alternative: you pay more $ if you catch what you weren't vaccinated for. simple. no police state required.
So because they statistically raise healthcare costs, you want to force things into their bodies?
Criminalize sugar? Make Smoking illegal? Alcohol surely kills more than vaccinated people...
YES, a lot of people stay home when SICK or take precautions spreading it to other people. Maybe they end up in the hospital, maybe not. I had measles as a kid before I could get the shot (which I still got later.)
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In a dense dystopia like NYC, you can't do squat without messing up someone else, that's one of the psychological costs of that unsustainable lif
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Including INFANTS who are TOO YOUNG to be vaccinated and might not live to see it because of your selfish dumb ass.
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So you don't wash your hands etc or avoid visiting an infant when sick???
It's my right to do what you think is selfish. Voting Republican does more harm to others and that is still a right; some might say the other brand name/tribe is worse...
Children die. that sucks and that is natural. for all of human existence and it's also what evolved humanity. bad luck happens. Children are humans too, with equal rights and equal luck.
Think of the children is often a poor excuse always abused and so many are comple
Re:Do you know what Vaccination is? (Score:5, Informative)
No vaccination is 100% effective. There will always be a small percentage of people who get vaccinated but do not become fully immune. With measles I believe it's 2-3 percent, which is still tens of thousands of people.
Even if you are immune, you can still potentially carry the virus with you. Measles virus can survive outside the body for several hours and still be infectious.
And you contradict yourself within three sentences:
1) "You do not endanger others if you are not vaccinated"
2) "You could spread it to other people who are not vaccinated"
So which is it? Are you not endangering others, or can you spread it?
=Smidge=
not a contradiction. think further. (Score:2)
You do not endanger people who ARE vaccinated. You put yourself at risk.
Other people who ALSO put themselves at risk are just as likely to catch germs from anybody including people who are vaccinated. You are no more to blame for their infection than they are THEMSELVES for not being vaccinated. It's their own dam fault if they get sick (generally speaking.) Not yours... unless you get sick and purposely go around coughing on everybody.
No, you are not endangering others by spreading something that gets ar
Re:Do you know what Vaccination is? (Score:4, Insightful)
You realize that this quite literally contradicts what you say literally two sentences later....
(emphasis mine) Other people who are not vaccinated are still "others"... whether you endanger yourself in the process is irrelevant.
And not all of these others even had any choice in the matter. You endanger people who could not receive a vaccination for medical reasons, and you endanger those for whom the vaccination was not 100% effective. This is not generally a problem by itself because the number of people who have a legitimate medical reason to not get a vaccination plus the number of people for whom the vaccination would not actually be effective in the event of exposure is quite small, small enough that if they were the only ones vulnerable, the danger to any of them is actually negligible.
Adding choice to be vaccinated or not changes the dynamic of this effective "herd immunity" entirely, and with every additional person that gets ill, the danger to everyone else who was vulnerable rises exponentially. In theory, it wouldn't be a problem if nobody ever contracted the illness in the first place, but as soon as one person does, the more unvaccinated or otherwise vulnerable people there are around them, the more quickly the virus will spread. The fact that it only will tend to affect these otherwise vulnerable people completely ignores the fact that not all of them had a choice in the matter, and in practice while the number of people who might choose to be unvaccinated may tend to outnumber those who did not make a choice to be vulnerable, during an outbreak, it is noteworthy that they rarely outnumber the ones who die, not surprising often owing to the same medical reasons for why they could not have received the vaccination in the first place, or why the vaccination they did receive was not effective.
And while I say the number of these people may be quite small, I only mean so statistically... in absolute terms, the number of people is still actually quite large,. so yes....you *DO* endanger others if you are not vaccinated. At the very least, you can certainly say that you endanger others if you should *choose* to not be vaccinated.
"people who could not receive a vaccination" (Score:2)
No. think further. (Score:2)
contradictions are not always the case if you dig deeper. I wasn't being specific enough but also was trying to be more provocative to get people going. so troll isn't an unfair mod.
You can't get great data on exposure rates because you measure sick people who are not immune who obviously greatly reduce in numbers because vaccinations are extremely effective. Theory says there is less exposure. Try proving that. The data is on how effective the vaccination is; not exposure.
You are not responsible for s
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you're making the claim. you prove it. I'm saying they don't endanger anymore than tons of other random sources-- in otherwords I'm saying you prove it's actually worse.
We all know that the rare case of somebody purposely trying to infect others is negligible. Careless people you could make a reasonable guess about but there are immune people spreading things carelessly as well as animals etc.
The burden is on you to make a strong case that it is so much worse than nothing that we must pass a law to save peo
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If we stopping immigrants from arriving, we would reduce the number of infections transmitted from immigrants to America to pre-existing American citizens.
If we stopping sexual tourists from leaving, we would reduce the number of infections t
Re:That's an Unamerican sentiment (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the Jewish people there are natural born citizens . They do lead an insular lifestyle, but last I heard, that is not illegal.
You need to be more careful, your Nazi armband was showing just a bit there...
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Err, forcing these ultra-orthodox Jews to be vaccinated would be antisemitism. Seems the current President is very much against antisemitism, so yes, it can be partially blamed on the current President and his supporters.
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Seems the current President is very much against antisemitism,
No. He is very anti-semitic. He insults "sleepy eyes" (a nazi slur against Jews), and Soros and any Jew that he doesn't like.
He is Zionist. That's unrelated. In the US, the sides are often reversed, with the anti-semitic people claiming that anyone who is anti-zionist is anti-semitic, regardless of whether they are.
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OK, it all gets confusing, what with only one type of genocide being bad and Israel being good.
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WTF are you talking about? (Score:2)
You're an idiot.
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Er, no they aren't. Not all Jews are from Israel. In fact, not even most Jews are from Israel. In this case, they're almost all native-born US citizen whose ancestors emigrated from Eastern Europe.
"controversial"? (Score:4, Insightful)
You're a fucking moron.
Re:end the nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong.
1. There are about 5% or less of those vaccinated for whom it doesn't "take". There's no easy way to test for this.
2. There are those who legitimately can't be vaccinated. Those who have compromised immune systems. For some vaccines, those who are too young.
3. Vaccines hold out the promise of completely eradicating a disease, like we did smallpox. Anti-vaxxer are working to ensure reservoirs of diseases remain in existence.
No, it's not. It's amazing how many people think herd immunity is some sort of mystical concept, when it's really very simple and straightforward If almost everyone in a community is immune, then there is no one the few who are not can catch the disease from. It's just that simple.
Re:end the nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
I think herd immunity is bullshit.
Do you believe in Smallpox?
Do you believe that there was ever a point in time where 100% of the planet was vaccinated? If you aren't sure, the answer is "no".
Smallpox is proof of herd immunity. Enough people were vaccinated that there were no vulnerable people to be infected, so the disease died off. That's the goal for all disease, but some people work extraordinarily to see that disease persist.
The only way to not believe in reality is to simply be delusional. That invalidates your opinion as well as most of your (incorrect) facts.
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I think herd immunity is bullshit...
Sweet. What's your view on the shape of the earth, the moon landing, carbon dating, climate change? I mean you're clearly not a man of science. But the good thing is since gravity is just a theory can you do us all a favour and ignore that theory and float the fuck away? Thanks.
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Debunked, phony tests. https://ilikemyteeth.org/fluor... [ilikemyteeth.org]
Fake news vs fake news (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that a way to fight this would be to "leak" a document to wikileaks pointing out that the autism vaccine rumor was spread by alquaeda as part of a plan to attack the population with measles.
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Think of it as evolution in action (Score:2, Interesting)
It's just that.
Not mentioned in article: Why this is happening. (Score:2, Troll)
I saw a few comments here suggesting it was a Jewish thing. Seemed odd, so I did a quick google search and... turns out they were right.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/u... [nbcnews.com]
https://www.independent.co.uk/... [independent.co.uk]
Looks like the outbreak is indeed centered in the city's Orthodox Jewish community. That really is odd, as the objections seem to be based on false scientific claims, not superstitious or moral objections.
I don't see anything to connect is to immigration though. The Independent suggests the outbreak strain wa
How to identify unvaccinated people (Score:2)
How do they identify unvaccinated people? It is quite easy to produce a fake medical certificate. Who will search if the doctor that signed it exists, and if it does, if he/she really signed that paper?
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Citizens must sue the city and file for an emergency injunction!
Injunction from a court has zero weight over the emergency powers of government executives.
(The emergency executive powers override any court issuances while the ordinary civil order is suspended)
Re:I am willing to be vaccinated against Ebola, bu (Score:5, Insightful)
Before the vaccine, measles caused an average of about 2.6 million deaths per year.
You have a very funny idea of what constitutes a dangerous disease"
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In other words, he's just a complete idiot
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Fine. Don't get vaccinated. But remember, even if you tell me your kid, or you, is allergic to peanuts, I'll still eat my PBJ next to you.
Not equivalent (Score:2)
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I will decide all my vaccination for me, by my self.
At the time when this is being decided you haven't even made the decision not to shit your own diaper yet. You ain't deciding shit for yourself, you're only deciding if you're putting your children's lives on the line.
Re:why does it matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are vaccinated, shouldn't you not have to worry about getting measles? Only the un-vaccinated will be affected? Where is the problem?
As I said above, these people dont just die in their homes. They then go to some of the most expensive healthcare facilities in the world to be treated, wasting resources which could be better used elsewhere.
Then there is the exposure risk to infants too young to receive the vaccine. Should infants be exposed because some idiots think a measles vaccine is dangerous? Herd immunity only works if the herd all gets vaccinated...
Re:why does it matter? (Score:5, Informative)
A common misconception about vaccination is that it prevents infection. Vaccination only trains your own body's immune system to attack a disease after your system has been exposed to it. For some their vaccination wasn't good enough to build an immunity and others might have temporary or lasting immunity system problems. Even vaccinated people can get a disease, but it's generally less frequent and more mild overall.
Babies have to grow some before and other people have actual real problems taking a vaccine ever, those people rely on 'herd immunity'. I'm fairly certain that you too were at least once a baby.
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Babies inherent their parents immunity, when the parents are actually exposed instead of vaccinated.
Forcing generations of people to vaccinate ensures newborn babies have to get vaccinated as their system has been essentially weakened
Keep that in mind as well
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Re:why does it matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are vaccinated, shouldn't you not have to worry about getting measles? Only the un-vaccinated will be affected? Where is the problem?
1> No vaccine is 100% effective. But vaccination can reduce the risk or the severity of the disease.
2. The population of Brooklyn is 2.65 million. You do not want a dangerously infectious disease to gain a foothold in a population that size.
3. There are legitimate medical reasons why everyone cannot be vaccinated. But you can protect the most vulnerable by immunizing those around them. Consider it a firewall..
4. We came within a hair of eliminating measles as we did smallpox. We could all-but-eliminate cervical cancer in the next generation. If we fail, the reason will there for veryone to see,
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The "who can't get a measles vaccine" includes every single person on the planet. The current CDC recommendation is to get the MMR vaccine at 12 to 18 months; that means that we are all susceptible at some point in our lives.
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The vaccine is only 97% effective and herd immunity requires about 93...95% immunity. There are people that cannot be vaccinated due to no fault of their own, in particular children too young. They will get sick though and have a real risk of permanent problems or long-term problems and a small risk of death. Want to restate your question?
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How can you be _this_ stupid and uninformed?
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Ah, yes. People like you are too stupid to survive.
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Thanks for proving my point!
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You must me mentally deficient if you think that. After-effects from some infection that could have been prevented by vaccination?
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It's people like you who give libertarianism a bad name. If people like you and the antivaxxers had been around in the 1950s, we'd still be struggling with polio.
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You do neither understand what human rights are, not how they are given to people. The right to start an epidemic, for example, or the right to give a serious sickness to others are not among them. Hence your whole argument is fundamentally flawed. But what can you expect from an AC cretin. It is a pity that human rights are not "deserved" but given to anybody simply because they are human. You certainly do not deserve yours.
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But it isn't and you don't, so they aren't.
Governments have been taking drastic measures to deal with infectious epidemics for thousands of years. This has been widely recognized as a necessary evil that is preferable to the evil of allowing selfish people to spread disease.
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This is a good of humanity situation here. If there had been assholes like you and the anti-vaxxers back in the 1950s, polio would still be around. The government already mandates we do a lot of shit. A lot of this is flatly unnecessary and can be dismissed in the same tone of voice you just used. Vaccines isn't one of them. The onus is on you to explain why we, as a society, should allow deadly selfish recklessness when th
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It's the same as all fines. It's supposed to act as a motivator to comply with the law. Personally, I think it should be $1000 per person per day until you get yourself and your kids vaccinated. Society really doesn't have time for stupid people when it comes to health.
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Personally, I think it should be $1000 per person per day until you get yourself and your kids vaccinated.
Because just throwing them in prison would be a step too far? Good grief. Maybe "jackbooted" was too kind of a term.
Again, step back and think about how this will go when it's not your pet issue. As you may recall, there's only one step left in the poem after "then they came for the Jews...."
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It's repugnant to think that humanity will be stuck with these diseases for all time because someone demands that their "right" to be paranoid/stupid isn't infringed. It is clear that we cannot win over all hearts and minds--the anti-vaxxers fight di
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It's repugnant to think that humanity will be stuck with these diseases for all time because someone demands that their "right" to be paranoid/stupid isn't infringed.
When you're ready to start heavily fining/criminalizing/imprisoning people for stupid things that, as opposed to putting a few dozen people in the hospital in a population of 300+ million, are actually on the verge of causing genuine, massive, intractable problems -- like going to their doctor and demanding (and the doctor for giving in and prescribing) an antibiotic that will be utterly useless against the head cold they have -- let's talk. Until then, this whole subject strikes me as cherry-picked sancti
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I'm all for keeping it legal to stay unvaccinated it one or two states. They can move there if they really want to. Seriously, it's a big fucking deal going forward. Looking at just this one incident is insanely myopic. I don't want us to be having this debate as a culture when the stakes are actually super high
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So either get vaccinated and get fined very single day (because you're a menace to society every time you go out in public), or go live in the woods isolated from everyone else who is