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Earth The Almighty Buck Science

$200 Million Dollars a Year Could Reverse Climate Change, Says Wave Energy Pioneer (bbc.com) 316

dryriver writes: BBC Future reports on a geoengineering technique called "marine cloud brightening" that makes marine Stratocumulus clouds -- which currently reflect almost 30% of total Solar radiation back into space -- whiter, causing them to reflect more sunlight away from earth. Professor Stephen Salter of Edinburgh University, a well-known 1970s wave and tidal power pioneer, has designed an unmanned hydro-foil ship, computer-controlled and wind-powered, which pumps an ultra-fine mist of sea salt toward the cloud layer, causing it to turn white: "'Spraying about 10 cubic meters per second could undo all the [global warming] damage we've done to the world up until now,' Salter claims. And, he says, the annual cost would be less than the cost to host the annual UN Climate Conference -- between $100-$200 million each year. Salter calculates that a fleet of 300 of his autonomous ships could reduce global temperatures by 1.5C. He also believes that smaller fleets could be deployed to counter-act regional extreme weather events.

Hurricane seasons and El Nino, exacerbated by high sea temperatures, could be tamed by targeted cooling via marine cloud brightening. Salter boasts that 160 of his ships could 'moderate an El Nino event, and a few hundred [would] stop hurricanes.' The same could be done, he says, to protect large coral reefs such as the Great Barrier Reef, and even cool the polar regions to allow sea ice to return. So, what's the catch? Well, there's a very big catch indeed. The potential side-effects of solar geoengineering on the scale needed to slow hurricanes or cool global temperatures are not well understood. According to various theories, it could prompt droughts, flooding, and catastrophic crop failures. Another major concern is that geoengineering could be used as an excuse to slow down emissions reduction, meaning CO2 levels continue to rise and oceans continue to acidify -- which, of course, brings its own serious problems."

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$200 Million Dollars a Year Could Reverse Climate Change, Says Wave Energy Pioneer

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:35PM (#58197312)
    The last thing I'm interested in is trying to figure out a way to make it even worse.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Gets warmer that's some powerful global warming.
      Got colder? Thats all that climate change moving in.
      Always a reason for a new project.
      • Any excuse will serve a tyrant.

      • Who are you, Kenny Bania? Get some new material.
      • Gets warmer that's some powerful global warming. Got colder? Thats all that climate change moving in. Always a reason for a new project.

        And it's soooo confusing some times!

        I wasin Florida most of February. It was unusually hot. Upper 80's, humid, sunny. Ahhh - there's Global warming!

        Came back to the Northeast, and snow! Freezing rain! Temps below or near freezing. So much for global warming!

        Amazing that some folks debunk global warming by looking out the window and taking in maybe a square mile of the world.

    • The last thing I'm interested in is trying to figure out a way to make it even worse.

      It will soon be raining salt water .

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      You do not get it. Harder winters are one of the signs of global warming taking effect. Sure, things are getting warmer on _average_, but the real killer is that winters are getting colder and summers are getting warmer. This is well-known and not in dispute among the experts.

  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:43PM (#58197348) Homepage Journal

    But it wouldn't reverse all the effects of climate change, such as ocean acidification. You'd also continue to have increased solar forcing in places with fewer clouds, and a different amount of sunlight of all wavelengths in other places.

    I would make sense to try something like this if we were demonstrably on the brink of some kind of runaway thermal effect, but it wouldn't maintain the status quo or return the status quo ante. You'd still see major and widespread ecological disruption.

    An approach like this could keep the *average* temperature increase around the globe down, but in fact that average temperature increase is not that dramatic -- its only about 2 degrees. But that represents a vast amount of total energy, and the changes that energy will bring to air and moisture circulation is what is going to be dramatic. Doing something like this will introduce different, perhaps nearly as dramatic changes in global weather patterns.

    • It also doesn't do anything to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

      • In fact, it makes it harder, since less sunlight means less power from solar panels. We have to get off fossil fuels at some point, snowflakes.
  • by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:45PM (#58197360)

    Of course a guy named "Salter" is going to have a vested interest in spraying salt.

  • by david.emery ( 127135 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:46PM (#58197368)

    We're working off of computer models of climate. Those get validated by taking past data and running them into the models which are built on past data. The idea of messing with the weather on a planetary level scares the bejezzus out of me. See "Law of Unintended Consequences."

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Thankfully the clouds of misted water dissipate quickly and don't have any byproducts, unlike other suggestions, aerogels, etc. So it can be done in a pretty safe and stoppable way if some unforeseen consequence emerged.

      They're just artificial clouds, it's just water. Where and when they do this and how the wind carries it, monitoring all of that, it's not simple but it is pretty straightforward. Certainly less risky than some alternative proposals.

      But your fear is warranted of course.

    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      The idea of messing with the weather on a planetary level scares the bejezzus out of me.

      So it should. But the fact is that we are heading toward the point where it will be less risky than doing nothing.
      The time for relatively easy, safe solutions to global warming is rapidly passing, if it has not already.
      Even though we are just beginning to feel the consequences.

      Climate engineering will be nasty for many, but it will probably mitigate the worst predictions for our grandchildren.

    • Yes, amazingly, no one's been able to see future data as of yet. So all we can do is guess that we're all gonna die, and then apparently do nothing? As opposed to trying to do anything about it that projects that we'll die less. I mean who knows what could happen if we do that???
    • > Those get validated by taking past data and running them into the models which are built on past data.

      Never seen a single quote on how precise they are on predicting current climate on the past data.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Same here. But we are running out of options fast. We will have to chance things like this. Not good.

    • by swilver ( 617741 )

      Too late, we're already messing with climate on a global scale.

    • We're have deforested half the planet and are well on the way to clear up the remaining part. The CO2 and many other gasses we already pumped in the sky aren't going to go away any time soon. The sun is always changing.

      Pretending there is some 2000 year natural equilibrium which can be maintained if we just try hard enough is ludicrous at this point in the face of population growth.

      We can force an equilibrium or accept change.

  • by CRB9000 ( 647092 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:49PM (#58197372)
    ...says it will take $92 trillion of social programs to reverse climate change. Oh, and we have get rid of farting cows.
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      $92 trillion over what time period and how much of that would be spent anyway?

      My understanding is that much of it is healthcare and would be spent anyway.

  • by Livius ( 318358 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:01PM (#58197402)

    I see a lot of unanswered questions and potential limitations, but I like that someone is thinking about dealing with climate change in terms of solutions that are feasible technologically, economically, and politically.

    My guess is that this would be at best part of the solution, but it's better than believing the only possibilities are to deny the existence of the problem or to naively hope people will casually give up their standard of living.

  • I think most dystopian movies start with the same tag line.....
  • We've seen how this ends. Oh wait a second... maybe not. The movie bombed.

  • by Namarrgon ( 105036 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:29PM (#58197496) Homepage

    Quite a lot of detail here [researchgate.net]. He also includes calculations for required levels of spray to achieve the desired albedo increase, methods for assigning vessels to the areas with the highest effect, etc.

  • by Mr. Dollar Ton ( 5495648 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:50PM (#58197564)

    for the thing that needs to be done - which is actually reducing the CO2 output.

    Why? Because it will not address the issue, and will add further stress to the biosphere, the thing that we're allegedly worried about.

    We only recently had that story about another space cadet and their rig that was supposed to "clean" the oceans of plastic garbage, which proceeded to become plastic garbage instead.

    So, nope, how about we address the real issue, and have the solution paid for by the people who have profited most from it.

    • by mentil ( 1748130 )

      So you're saying the salt water pumps should be turned to spraying coal power plants, lobbyists, corrupt politicians, their mansions, and NIMBYs?
      How much money can we get for this project?!

    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      for the thing that needs to be done - which is actually reducing the CO2 output.

      Why? Because it will not address the issue, and will add further stress to the biosphere,

      Nope. There is no evidence of any other ill effects of CO2 emission than increased greenhouse effect.
      The problem is that any effort to counter the CO2 greenhouse increase is not going to cancel it out evenly across the globe, and across the seasons.
      So while global warming can probably be reversed by foreseeable technology , local effects will remain.
      Maybe destabilising the subcontinental monsoon, leading to drought, and India and Pakistan heading for war in a climate of mass starvation. Lets

      • There is no evidence of any other ill effects of CO2 emission than increased greenhouse effect.

        That you don't know something doesn't mean it isn't there.

        any effort to counter the CO2 greenhouse increase is not going to cancel it out evenly across the globe, and across the seasons.

        So what? CO2 distribution isn't uniform and has never been. The effects of increase of CO2 are also not uniform. That doesn't make removing CO2 any less important, and one reason is that increasing warming has a lot more potential

        • by quenda ( 644621 )

          There is no evidence of any other ill effects of CO2 emission than increased greenhouse effect.

          That you don't know something doesn't mean it isn't there.

          Russell's teapot? https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]

          The effects of increase of CO2 are also not uniform. That doesn't make removing CO2 any less important,

          No kidding. Read it again: I said "counter". The point is that it is much better to not emit in the first place, than to try cooling by other means to offset.

          • The point is that it is much better to not emit in the first place, than to try cooling by other means to offset.

            Well, thanks for agreeing with my original point, then. But since we've already emitted a lot, it is better we stop and consider how to remove it rather than try other, even more nefarious schemes.

    • As long as countries like the US, Russia and the rest of the modern world refuses to fund the second and 3rd world countries to reduce CO2 it is not going to stop going up anytime soon. We caused all the damage and profited from it immensely yet we suddenly expect everyone else to wear the cos and not benefit in the same way we didt. It aint gonna happen. Geoengineering is not an idiotic substitute, sure it might be a poor substitute but it is better than what is achievable without it.
      • In the West only the US - the largest cumulative emitter of CO2 in the world - is opposed to comprehensive CO2 reduction policies. The EU has managed a significant decrease [europa.eu] over the last two decades, and is going on with more efforts in the next two decades. Even China is on board with reduction measures.

        There is absolutely no need for risky "geoengineering" bullshit, when there are proven CO2 reduction strategies that work.

      • As long as countries like the US, Russia and the rest of the modern world refuses to fund

        Out of curiosity, why Russia highlighted? They're not even in the top 10 economies and even lower down the list when compared to per-capita income. Russia is far off the pace when it comes to modern wealthy economies.

    • "Geoengineering" is an idiotic substitute for the thing that needs to be done - which is actually reducing the CO2 output.

      I'm afraid you'll have to show your work. Decades of hand wringing hasn't reduced the CO2 output. Maybe it's time to also try something else.

  • by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:14PM (#58197628) Journal

    Whether this or something else ... it's going to be technological solutions. It's not going to be solved by everyone going stone age,

  • OK Jeff Bezos (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WindowsStar ( 4692767 ) on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:37PM (#58197688)
    Jeff Bezos give 1 billion dollars a year for climate change, even if you live a 100 more years you will never go broke! Problem solved!
  • A lot more people die from cold than heat and CO2 is plant food, it's great for life on earth, climate alarmism is bullshit.
  • No, $200 Million Dollars a Year Would Not Reverse Climate Change

  • In that case, it usually is. But we may have to look at options like these to find the one that actually pans out, because otherwise we are ultimately screwed as a race.

  • i don't feel like spending the rest of my life riding around the planet on a train, we've all seen snowpiercer.

  • Morpheous: We dont know who struck first, but we do know we were the ones to blacken the sky.

    Aside from the issue of wanting to harness solar power, dont clouds also trap heat? The clearest winter skies are usually the coldest.

    At one point city planners brought in a bunch of hawks to deal with a pigeon problem. Apparently this has created a new problem of attacks on small pets. Not enough influence and you do not get the desired effect. Too much influence and your likely to overshoot and create new unforsee

  • by GLMDesigns ( 2044134 ) on Friday March 01, 2019 @10:16AM (#58199444)
    Oh yeah. How about Ice Ages from hell. (Hmmm. that didn't work out so well ... ice and ... hell)

    Ok. Redo - how about Ice Ages from Niflheim. (If you're into Norse Mythology and all that. )

    And yeah. I had to look it up. I can't remember things I can't pronounce.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

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