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Space Technology

Elon Musk Announces That Raptor Engine Test Has Set New World Record (space.com) 144

A reader shares a report from Space.com: A test fire of SpaceX's newest engine reached the power level necessary for the company's next round of rocket designs, CEO Elon Musk said on Twitter. "Raptor just achieved power level needed for Starship & Super Heavy," he tweeted on Feb. 7, four days after he shared a photograph of the first test of a flight-ready engine. [Musk added: "Raptor reached 268.9 bar today, exceeding prior record by the awesome Russian RD-180. Great work by @SpaceX engine/test team!"

The Raptor engine is designed to power the spaceship currently known as Starship as part of the rocket assembly currently known as Super Heavy (previously dubbed the BFR). The first Raptor test fire took place in September 2016, when the company was targeting an uncrewed Mars launch in 2018. Three Raptor engines like this one are built in to the Starship Hopper, which has been under construction in Texas and which SpaceX will use to begin testing the rocket technology in real life. Eventually, SpaceX plans to assemble 31 Raptor engines into the Super Heavy rockets, with another seven Raptors on the Starship itself.

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Elon Musk Announces That Raptor Engine Test Has Set New World Record

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  • by wolfheart111 ( 2496796 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:06AM (#58114066)
    This Shits Looking all to real... :)
    • by louzer ( 1006689 )
      Do you know if there is a free ride available for pioneers?
    • I just wish they'd hurry up and start recruiting space miners to go to the asteroid belt.

      A few million miles, a robot sidekick, and a cargo hold full of gold, what more do you need?

      • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:44AM (#58114186)

        I just wish they'd hurry up and start recruiting space miners to go to the asteroid belt.

        You read too much sci-fi. IRL, when miners go to the asteroid belt, they will be robots, not humans.

        There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit. Robots don't need life support, they don't need expensive ultra-reliable gear, and they don't need to come back home.

        https://xkcd.com/695/ [xkcd.com]

        • Ya thats what I thought when I signed up a few years ago to settle on Mars.... WEll FucK...
        • There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit. Robots don't need life support, they don't need expensive ultra-reliable gear, and they don't need to come back home.

          Yep, it's great that we already have that AGI to control with low latency our newly invented unbreakable space mining equipment. Otherwise we'd have to send people along to control and fix things.

          • Yep, it's great that we already have that AGI to control with low latency our newly invented unbreakable space mining equipment. Otherwise we'd have to send people along to control and fix things.

            We're a lot closer to having AGI than having people on asteroids.

          • by jythie ( 914043 )
            Eh, you don't need unbreakable, you just need replacement to be cheaper than having humans out there.
            • "Just"... Considering that Earth-based heavy machinery needs fixing all the time (even in our much more benign temperature and presure conditions), a few humans would really have to be much more expensive than your steady stream of replacement machines.
        • An army of robots will do most of the mining and smelting work, but there will be no substitute for onsite humans in command and control, dealing with who-knows-what unknowns. The latency at this distance is too high for teleoperation, and the real-time decisionmaking that goes with directing a robot army is not something our AI will be capable of doing until it achieves real consciousness. Having humans go there along with the robots is slightly less "impossible" than conscious AI.

        • > There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit. Robots don't need life support, they don't need expensive ultra-reliable gear, and they don't need to come back home.

          Only until they unionise

        • ... Robots don't need life support, they don't need expensive ultra-reliable gear, and they don't need to come back home ...

          ... and most importantly they're not aware where they are, for what reason and what to make of it, in general they do not care about exploration, progress and dreams - they're tools.
          My point is that "we do this and the other things not because they're easy, but because they're hard".

          There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit ...

          Why to send humans anywhere then, what's the practicality of sending to orbit, why to cross an ocean or a mountain, why to do anything besides one's basic needs like e.g. reading a novel?

        • by Khyber ( 864651 )

          "There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit."

          Wanna know how I know you don't work with automated robotic systems here on Earth?

          Hint: I design embedded systems robots for semiconductor manufacturing.

        • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          Humans are dirt cheap compared to space robots, never mind artificially intelligent space robots we can't build yet, provided you get their life support resources in space. Those resources will be the primary products of asteroid mining.

        • There is no practical reason to send humans beyond earth orbit

          There's no practical reason to go to the grocery store ether, a robot could take all day to pull out products you wanted.

          Or maybe, just maybe, onsite human judgement and intuition has practical value.

      • What more do you need?

        High-grade sexbots.

    • Short duration test with a massive shockwave at the end.
      Makes me wonder how well the engine would handle a full duration burn without blowing up.

      • In exactly the same way? The beginning and the end are always going to be the same, just the middle part is longer.
        • In exactly the same way? The beginning and the end are always going to be the same, just the middle part is longer.

          The middle is where all the interesting stuff happens. Just ask the crew of the challenger all about the middle part.

    • no, it's looking like more chemical rockets

      we need order of magnitude improvement in exhaust velocity for serious interplanetary travel

  • Elon is exaggerting (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:25AM (#58114134)

    The RD-181 has the record for the highest chamber pressure for a flown engine. (And the RD-180 is only a few psi behind, so I'm not going to slam Elon for mixing them up.)

    But the Raptor is currently a test-stand engine, and the record for tested engines is over 300 bar.

    Testing an engine at a higher pressure than it flies in order to demonstrate a safety margin is of course completely normal. Aerospace uses a lot smaller margins than the factor of 2 used in a lot of civil engineering, but I expect a test at at least 110% of flight pressure.

    So while this is an impressive demonstration worthy of praise, it is not any sort of record.

    • The lunatical RD-270M and RD-702 were test fired at over 300 bar.

      270M is a remarkable beast, getting both monsterous chamber pressure an temperature while being fed chlorine pentafluoride and pentaborane. Only devil knows from what its combustion chamber and turbos are made of.

    • while this is an impressive demonstration worthy of praise, it is not any sort of record

      I don't really give a crap whether it's a record or not, the point is to lose the current dependence on Russia.

  • by ZombieEngineer ( 738752 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:32AM (#58114270)

    If I read de Laval nozzle [wikipedia.org] equation correctly an increase in the combustion chamber pressure has minimal impact on the exhaust velocity (going from 260 Bar to 300 Bar has less than 1% improvement).

    Combustion chamber temperature is a far better indication of efficiency of the engine and has a far more direct impact of exhaust velocity than pressure.

    Credit where credit due - design requires 170 metric tonnes of force, test fire got 172 metric tonnes (design works as expected).

    • It's NOT about exhaust velocity in this case. Most likely it's about thrust per rocket's business end's area which dictates the maximum height of the rocket stack that still lifts itself from the pad.
    • by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @04:45AM (#58114424) Homepage

      Chamber pressure is correlated to both thrust (higher chamber pressure = higher mass flow rate) and efficiency (and thus ISP, see here [researchgate.net]).

      AFAIK, thrust density is the more key factor here, at least for Super Heavy (the first stage). There's a sort of "maximum height" to a rocket stage which relates to the thrust density. Your ability to pack more engines into the rocket corresponds to the rocket's cross section at the base. These engines in turn have to lift a column of liquid sitting above them; each engine can be viewed as having to lift the portion of the column of liquid directly above it (in addition to dead mass and payload). Eventually you get to a height where the mass of liquid (plus overhead) above each engine equals the thrust, and you don't move at all. The higher the thrust density of your engines, the taller you can realistically make that stage, the more fuel it can carry, and - for a given ratio of lower stage mass to upper stage mass - the heavier the payload it can launch (for a given dV). Other options to increase rocket upper stage masses come with disadvantages, such as making the rocket higher diameter (more air resistance) or adding strap-on boosters (more air resistance, more complexity, more work in recovery for reuse).

      Thrust density is primarily of importance for lower stages (which is why you don't see many hydrolox lower stages without boosters), and why strap-on boosters (incl. very high thrust density solid rocket boosters) are commonly added to the first stages of large rockets. Thrust density limits are also why small rockets tend to be shaped like pencils (very high aspect ratio) while large rockets tend to be fatter, particularly at the base. For upper stages, ISP is of greater importance.

      Also, for a rocket of a given (constant) height, improving its engines' thrust density comes with another advantage: they burn through their fuel faster and deliver the stage's dV faster. While there are limits to how fast you want to do this in the lower atmosphere, once you're past max-Q, more thrust is better (up to the G-force limits of your payload/passengers), as it means lower gravity losses.

      • It would be interesting to see what progress has been made over 50 years, if anyone has some figures.

        I suppose that the key one is actually total thrust per kg of fuel. And then kg of engine required to produce a kg of thrust.

        My guess is not much, given that by the 1960s the physics has been worked out pretty well and the materials have not changed markedly.

        • by nojayuk ( 567177 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @05:57AM (#58114582)

          The Saturn V's first-stage engines were crude and inefficient due to problems scaling up the engineering of smaller rocket motors, with bodges added to solve difficulties with the flow of oxidiser and fuel into the engine. The Soviet solution was to use multiple smaller injection systems in separate combustion chambers.

          By the late 1960s the Isp figure for LOX/RP fuels was about what we can get today, 300s-plus at sea level for well-designed engines like the RD-170 derivatives (the F1's sea-level Isp was 263s by comparison). The big steps made in rocket engineering are design and materials. The structures are lighter but stronger since the CAD tools allow better understanding of where to add mass and where to remove it without lessening strength, rigidity, resistance to vibration, heat dissipation and other factors. The engines are modelled and tested in simulation a long time before any metal is bent or additively-fabricated, the shapes and structures can be more complex thanks to new manufacturing processes, new alloys and composite materials are available etc. etc.

          • by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:13AM (#58114742) Homepage

            I love the various hacks that have been used in rocketry over the years to deal with "difficult problems", which throw away a bit of performance in order to not have to deal with them. One of the most recent ones that springs to mind is that North Korea "dealt with" the stability problems on their missiles by adding a ring of stationary (no axial rotation, aka non-maneuvering) grid fins around the base. They deliberately increase the drag of the first stage in order to keep it stable (like a shuttlecock).

          • In the early 2000's NASA published a lot of software allowing for better simulation and design of nozzles and reaction chambers, leading to much better design efficiencies. It was right after that that Musk, Bezos and Branson decided to invest in space programs

          • by PPH ( 736903 )

            The Soviet solution was to use multiple smaller injection systems in separate combustion chambers.

            The German solution. Evidently, they kidnapped better rocket scientists than we did.

            • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

              By the time of Apollo the German scientists were behind the times engineering-wise never mind in the propellants race. The US engineers at Rocketdyne couldn't resist the idea of bigger is better and went for a motor design with a unitary combustion chamber and giant expansion bell, then fought for years to solve the gas flow problems that design decision caused. Finally they had to accept lower efficiency to get it to work well enough which more than cancelled out the expected savings in weight and manufact

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          My guess is not much, given that by the 1960s the physics has been worked out pretty well and the materials have not changed markedly.

          We have much better ways of 3D modelling, much better materials (like single crystal nickel alloys), and also much improved manufacturing techniques. The basic physics were known in the '60, but you couldn't model an entire rocket engine, because of wide scale interactions between pressure, temperature, intermediate reaction products, pressure wave propagation and deformation of the engine.

          See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

          Also, some things may have been possible in the '60, like machining special allo

      • by PPH ( 736903 )

        That graph shows a 7% increase in ISP for a 70% increase in ISP. IIRC, there is only so much you can increase the mass flow rate by squeezing harder at this point on the operating curve.

        • by Rei ( 128717 )

          The challenge is not "squeezing harder". The challenge is "not obliterating your combustion chamber". The higher the pressure, the more reactive the combusting gas/plasma is with the walls of the combustion chamber. It's extremely hard to find materials that these conditions won't eat away.

    • esign requires 170 metric tonnes of force, test fire got 172 metric tonnes (design works as expected).

      If it's supposed to work at 170 tonnes, testing it under ideal conditions at 172 isn't leaving much room for things to go wrong.

      • Itâ(TM)s like their 5th test run, they havnt tested it anywhere near its limits. Itâ(TM)s designed to operate at 300 bar and use deep chilled cryo propellants (which they arenâ(TM)t using on these runs). In one of Elonâ(TM)s recent tweets, deep cryo will get you another 10%, never mind all of the design optimization theyâ(TM)ll go though as they learn from these tests. Merlin more than doubled its thrust between the A version and the D version
  • It used to be "always add Elon to the title to increase clicks".

    The it evolved to "always add Elon to the title and a negative slant". Getting an angry response from Elon is the lottery prize. But even without it, decent uptick in clicks.

    Then it seems to be evolving to "drop the negative slant, the shorts have moved on. Just mention Elon".

    What is it now? Seventh Elon story in three days?

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