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Space Businesses Government United States Politics

Trump's Border Wall Could Split SpaceX's Texas Launchpad In Two (latimes.com) 179

An anonymous reader quotes the Los Angeles Times A launchpad on the U.S.-Mexico border, which it plans to use for rockets carrying humans around the world and eventually to Mars, could be split in two by the Trump administration's planned wall... Lawmakers said they were concerned about the effect on the company's 50-acre facility after seeing a Department of Homeland Security map showing a barrier running through what they described as a launchpad...

James Gleeson, a SpaceX spokesman, declined to provide details on how the fence would affect the facility. "The Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Customs and Border Protection recently requested SpaceX permit access to our South Texas Launch site to conduct a site survey," he said in a statement. "At this time, SpaceX is evaluating the request and is in communication with DHS to further understand their plans...." Musk is working on a new, more powerful vehicle known as Starship to eventually ferry humans to Mars. SpaceX recently announced that it would test the Starship test vehicle at the site in south Texas.

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Trump's Border Wall Could Split SpaceX's Texas Launchpad In Two

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  • by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @08:39AM (#58098486) Homepage

    You have to do this to protect against illegal aliens.

    • You have to do this to protect against illegal aliens.

      One wonders exactly how aliens would apply for visas.

    • That the fence was needed to prevent problems with Uranus?

      Jesus, not everything is political.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Trump and Musk in one story. This should bring out trolls and shills from every direction.

  • by An Ominous Cow Erred ( 28892 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @08:42AM (#58098498)

    ...is Elon Musk building his launchpads partly in Mexico/within feet of the border? Isn't that a security risk to the launchpad?

    • Re:OK, but why... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Strider- ( 39683 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @08:49AM (#58098518)

      It's a few miles away from the border. The dirty secret behind this stupid wall is that it's often several miles inland from the actual border due to practical construction considerations.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        That's not a dirty little secret. One of those practical reasons is it allows the border patrol to patrol both sides of the wall.

      • Re:OK, but why... (Score:4, Informative)

        by rufey ( 683902 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @11:04AM (#58098958)

        Indeed. The SpaceX property, according to Google Maps (plus code: XRWV+X3 Port Isabel, Texas), is situated north of the Rio Grande river, which *is* the border between the US and Mexico. The terminus of the Rio Grande river where it dumps into the Gulf of Mexico is right there, and from satellite images, the ground looks kinda like wetlands.

        Its located at the mouth of the river where it dumps into the Gulf of Mexico. The land looks like a mix of dry and marshy ground. The issue isn't that part of SpaceX's property is in Mexico (its not). Its that you can't build a wall like is being proposed in wet, marshy ground, so the actual wall will be north of the actual border, which means you can be on the south side of the wall and yet be standing on ground belonging to the US.

        • you can't build a wall like is being proposed in wet, marshy ground

          Everyone said I was daft to build a wall on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. And that one sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. MAGA!

      • You know, if we put the wall at the Canadian border, we could cover both borders for the price of one!

    • Apparently there are floodplain issues in the area which requires the wall to be built away from the border towards the interior of the US. As I understand it, SpaceX's property isn't on a floodplain but floodplains surround the facility. So to prevent excessive flooding/water build up the walls will have to built away from the border, further into US territory.

      My question is, does this mean that with the wall, will the US will be giving land to Mexico? If I was to build a fence inside my property, afte

      • by tomhath ( 637240 )

        If I was to build a fence inside my property, after a number of years the land would become legally my neighbours

        Not true, presence of a wall somewhere on your property doesn't move the property line. Nor does the lack of a fence/wall prevent an adverse possession.

        • by swillden ( 191260 ) <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Sunday February 10, 2019 @10:04AM (#58098776) Journal

          If I was to build a fence inside my property, after a number of years the land would become legally my neighbours

          Not true, presence of a wall somewhere on your property doesn't move the property line. Nor does the lack of a fence/wall prevent an adverse possession.

          That depends on many factors. It depends on how well-defined the legal boundary is, on how long the adverse possession continues, on what use the other party makes of the bit of your property, and more.

          I doubt you could find any competent attorney who wouldn't counsel you to immediately raise a complaint about the location of the fence. You might not have to insist on it being moved, but you almost certainly want to make it abundantly clear to your neighbor that you know where the actual boundary is, and make sure they and the relevant land registrar do, too.

          I almost had to go to court over a misplaced fence once, but avoided the battle by quickly moving the fence to the correct location when the land changed hands. In my case the issue was further complicated by the fact that the adverse possession was incorporated into a right-of-way... but when the farmer who owned the field behind my house sold to a real-estate developer the right-of-way was removed anyway; it became part of the backyards of a row of homes and a new right-of-way, on a paved suburban street, was added. My attorney counseled me to quickly move the fence after the property changed hands and before construction started. The developer still might have tried to dispute the change, but it put them in the position of trying to move an established boundary marker that also matched the legal boundary -- an easy argument for me and hard for them. In any event the developer never contacted me and my new neighbor never knew there had been any dispute. Possibly the farmer never told the developer about it.

          If I'd waited until a house was built and sold and then tried to assert my ownership of part of my neighbor's backyard, my lawyer says I may well have lost, even though the legal description of the actual boundary was clear. The nature of the use of the adverse possession (right-of-way, at first, residential property, later) and the way you go about trying to fix it matter. Grabbing it back while it wasn't used at all was the ideal solution.

          In the case of a wall between the US and Mexico, that boundary has its own problems, but the wall clearly wouldn't change anything. In the area where the border is defined by the course of the Rio Grande, there have been many disputes over land that switched sides when the river moved. In 1970 a treaty was signed that settled all the previous disputes and established clear rules for addressing new changes in the river course. This is well settled, and the presence of a wall on US soil wouldn't change anything.

          • by tomhath ( 637240 )

            A right-of-way or easement through a piece of property is a nightmare waiting to happen; sounds like you dodged a bullet there.

            I doubt the developer could have claimed adverse possession since the right-of-way was documented (so there was permission to use it, it wasn't adverse). Plus it would have delayed his project for years.

            If I'd waited until a house was built and sold and then tried to assert my ownership of part of my neighbor's backyard, my lawyer says I may well have lost

            Yup, that would put the burden on you to prove that the old fence was not marking the boundary per an earlier agreement. Moving it shifted that burden to the developer.

      • >> If I was to build a fence inside my property,
        >> after a number of years the land would
        >> become legally my neighbours

        Adverse Possession is what you refer to. In most states your neighbour has to possess that property, adversely. You can put a fence anywhere you want on your property without giving any land to anybody. However there is a problem for 45 with this - if an alien gets on USA property the alien can claim refugee status. Build that wall miles inside the USA then have borde

        • If an alien was already in a safe country where they could have claimed refugee status, they can not travel further into the next country to claim refugee status. Mexico is letting in all these refugees from Central America. it is their responsibility to give asylum.

          • As I understand the international law (IANAL) a person seeking refugee status can do it at any NON adjoining country. Mexicans can't claim refugee status in USA, Guatemalans can't claim in Mexico but they can here. Should Mexico allow them transit to the USA? I think not, but what will you do with a Guatemalan that is HERE claiming refugee status? You must let them in, while the validity of the claim is investigated. If you don't like that you must change international law and agreements.

            • As I understand the international law (IANAL) a person seeking refugee status can do it at any NON adjoining country. Mexicans can't claim refugee status in USA, Guatemalans can't claim in Mexico but they can here.

              No clue where you got that from. There is nothing even remotely like this in the international agreements. On the contrary, a guatamalan traveling through Mexico cannot claim asylum in the USA; he would be rejected on the grounds that he should have claimed asylum in Mexico.

        • In most cases adverse possession is a few feet to maybe a few tens of feet of property. In this case, it's miles. Over time, I can definitely see the actual border getting fuzzier and fuzzier, as who is really going to care if someone is a few feet across the border if they're miles from you. Human nature being what it is, over time the border is going to be "over there, but we don't go there", and it will gradually creep closer and closer to the wall.

          As you note, it's a real issue due to the legalities of

      • by Hall ( 962 )

        If I was to build a fence inside my property, after a number of years the land would become legally my neighbours - does this apply here?

        Another "not true" reply here. At least in most localities, zoning rules require any structures - a fence, wall, shed, garage, etc - to be setback a certain distance from any property lines.

    • Re:OK, but why... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dfm3 ( 830843 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @09:09AM (#58098604) Journal
      I actually visited the site last year...

      Someone once explained the physics to me, and from what I understand it's advantageous to launch a rocket eastward, and as close to the equator as possible, because you're using the earth's spin to give you a little extra speed. Otherwise you have to expend more fuel to generate enough speed for low earth orbit.

      Now, you don't want to build your facility in a location where if a rocket fails, pieces could fall onto populated areas, so you want to build near water. And most of the lower Rio Grande valley is either agricultural land, developed suburbs, or is marshy and easily flooded, so those make poor locations to build a launch facility. But there's a large river delta east of Brownsville that is undeveloped, has areas of relatively "high ground" (low gravel sandbars a few feet above sea level) and is not suitable for agriculture, so land is fairly cheap.

      As for security? A CBP agent stationed there told me that although you could wade across the Rio Grande (it's 50 feet wide and very shallow), almost nobody wants to... they'd have to cross miles of marshland north of Playa Bagdad and then bushwhack across a heavily monitored wildlife refuge, and nobody wants to do that. Somebody who is trying to cross the border outside of a port of entry (which is actually how most people with illegal intent enter the US) will generally avoid facilities with chain link fences and surveillance, because they don't want to draw attention to themselves... they just go to Matamoros and find an easier crossing close to the city where they can quickly disappear into the suburbs.
      • by dfm3 ( 830843 )
        A clarification: I mean that most people who enter the US with illegal intent, or who overstay their visa, do so via a port of entry, NOT by jumping a fence. I'd cite a source, but nah, I'm too lazy to. Stories of families running across open stretches of desert or crews building tunnels under the border to ferry drugs are not as common as some would want you to think, although both do happen.
        • Re:OK, but why... (Score:4, Informative)

          by caseih ( 160668 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @09:51AM (#58098726)

          Correct. Most illegal aliens entered the country at a port of entry and overstayed their visa. In fact the country of origin with the most number of illegal aliens in the US is.... Canada.

          Most drugs come across ports of entry, or by boat. There was a major drug bust recently along the southern border at a port of entry that reinforced that fact.

          NPR did a story a while back on a bit of border wall (already funded, not part of the Trump demands) that will soon cut right through the middle of one of the US's only butterfly sanctuaries. This will not only inconvenience the land owners and the many thousands of people who visit this place (including campers), but it will also cut off many animals from their only source of water, and interfere withe the migratory paths of many species. And even stranger, there were not any existing problems with hordes of illegal aliens crossing over the frontier there or drugs. One wonders why the administration was so bent on pushing this wall through in this spot. Doesn't make any sense.

          • In fact the country of origin with the most number of illegal aliens in the US is.... Canada.

            How do you convince yourself of such retarded shit? Is this like some new meme on the far left which I'm not aware of? Or did you just make it up on the spot and hope that nobody would question it?

            Mexicans make up half of all illegal immigrants, at around 5 million:

            http://www.pewresearch.org/fac... [pewresearch.org]

            The entire population of Canada is just over 30 million. Did you really expect people to believe that 15% of the Canadian population had illegally immigrated into the USA?

            • by caseih ( 160668 )

              Nope didn't make it up. But I was clearly misinformed on that point.

              • Well. Fair enough. I'm honestly at a loss as to how that could possibly have happened, but thanks for being honest enough to admit to your error.

                • by dryeo ( 100693 )

                  There are a lot of Canadians who go to Florida, Arizona and such for the winter and overstay their visa. I've also heard somewhere that Canada is one of the major sources of illegals. The difference is that they are mostly illegal tourists rather then illegal workers so not considered a problem.
                  Googling, I can't find much besides 65000-85000 Canadians living down there by one estimate.

                  • There are a lot of Canadians who go to Florida, Arizona and such for the winter and overstay their visa.

                    That would be quite the accomplishment given that they don't actually need a visa to enter the USA.

                    I suppose that if they stay more than 6 months that would technically make them illegals, regardless of the fact that they didn't need a visa to enter. 6 months is a little longer than just "overstaying the winter" but OK. If you think the number of Canadian retirees illegally hiding out in Florida is even remotely close to the number of illegal Mexicans living in the USA ... you're not thinking very clearly

                    • by dryeo ( 100693 )

                      I said I had heard it somewhere, not that I believed it, though to a degree there is truth. Shit, I've gone across saying (and intending) it was a quick trip and then stayed a week, which strictly made me an illegal I believe. Even with out a visa requirement, you're supposed to declare how long you're planning on staying.

                    • You have to say how long you're staying, yes, but I don't believe there's anything legally binding about actually sticking to what you tell them. I've done the same; half the time I don't really know how long I'll be staying. I'm pretty sure they only ask in order to make sure you're not planning on staying longer than the allowed maximum.

          • Correct. Most illegal aliens entered the country at a port of entry and overstayed their visa.

            Is there a reference about this?

      • Getting into orbit involves more than just going up. You need lateral momentum too. Gravity is always pointed straight down towards the earth, but if you are moving sideways fast enough, you'll "miss" as you plummet towards your doom, and if you always miss, we call that "orbit".

        That's the anyone-can-understand-it version. The more mathy types will understand that adding two perpendicular vectors gives a diagonal. If you know a kid at about the right stage of learning this sort of thing, and who is inte

      • But why build in the US then? Is Musk afraid of building the launch site further south?

    • by clovis ( 4684 )

      ...is Elon Musk building his launchpads partly in Mexico/within feet of the border? Isn't that a security risk to the launchpad?

      It's not on the border.
      https://www.google.com/maps/@2... [google.com]

  • If true, this is still a big "Who Cares?" story.

    I find it hard to believe the southern boundary of the launch site is open to Mexico today.

    • by Sique ( 173459 )
      Actually, it isn't. Just the border wall has to be built a few miles away from the actual border at this point due to flooding considerations.
  • Location of the SpaceX site: https://www.google.com/maps/pl... [google.com]
  • Second Priority (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    But that's not his main goal. His main goal is to "drain the swamp" by putting in charge a corrupt businessman who won't reveal his tax returns to the public.
    #soDrained

    • you're confused, president is under no obligation to make tax return public. if there is problem, it is very much the IRS's business.

      • you're confused, president is under no obligation to make tax return public.

        And there's no obligation for him not to, so why won't he release them? After all, he promised he would. So any rational person has to ask- just what is he hiding?

  • by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @09:21AM (#58098650) Journal

    "Lawmakers said they were concerned about the effect on the company's 50-acre facility after seeing a Department of Homeland Security map showing a barrier running through what they described as a launchpad..."
    Does it? Let's check this out: As you can see on the wiki about the South Texas site ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ) and a map of the site from SpaceX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] show that the launch sites (ostensibly the "pads") are just south of Brazos Island State Park pretty much right on the coast, with the control center buildings almost directly west of them. The launch area is about 2.8 miles north of the Rio Grande, which is actually the border (but the Trump wall wouldn't of course be precisely in the river, it would logically be set back somewhat).

    Yet https://www.usatoday.com/borde... [usatoday.com] USA today says:

    The Texas fencing is full of gaps.
    The border fence begins in Texas, but it's miles inland from the border's edge at the Gulf of Mexico. Elsewhere, fences start and stop with huge gaps in between. This is all pedestrian fencing, pictured in red on the map, designed to stop people from crossing

    ...with the diagrammed fence just east of Brownsville, complaining that the proposed fence starts "miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico"...ie 10-12 miles from the SpaceX site, and nearly 15 miles from the pads themselves.

    So the USA today map and overflight show that the proposed border wall starts at least a dozen miles from the plotted site of the SpaceX facility.

    Someone's astonishingly wrong or lying deliberately.

    • 'the diagrammed fence just east of Brownsville, complaining that the proposed fence starts "miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico"'

      That location is the start of a currently exisiting section of wall.

    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      Wait -- are we talking about the *existing* border fencing, or the "wall" which Trump wants to build?

      If we are talking about a map of the *planned* route of the *new* wall, a map showing that wall through the facility would be a legitimate concern.

      Like all good political slogans, the "wall" adjusts to fit the needs of the moment and audience. It can be an unbroken concrete barrier stretching from the Gulf Coast to the Pacific, or it can be a much more realistic patchwork of physical barriers and electronic

    • by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @12:18PM (#58099304)

      So the USA today map and overflight show that the proposed border wall starts at least a dozen miles from the plotted site of the SpaceX facility.

      Someone's astonishingly wrong or lying deliberately.

      Yes, the currently proposed and constructed wall starts a dozen miles west of the SpaceX facility.

      Now DHS and CBP is proposing even more wall and fencing (after all, the usual narrative includes walling the entire border). And one of the proposed sections would go further east, through the SpaceX facility.

      • "one of the proposed sections would go further east, through the SpaceX facility."

        Link? Map?

        Because it seems pretty dumb for them - when the border goes east and south - to build the wall east and quite a bit north, particularly when the terrain is utterly flat and non-contoured and there's no geographical reason to do so.

        • "one of the proposed sections would go further east, through the SpaceX facility."

          Link? Map?

          The link is the article this story is based on.

          And there's no map because there is no publicly available map yet. We're talking about the map that DHS is developing for the next set of walls.

          Because it seems pretty dumb for them - when the border goes east and south - to build the wall east and quite a bit north, particularly when the terrain is utterly flat and non-contoured and there's no geographical reason to do so.

          There's a wildlife park directly below the SpaceX facility. They might be planning to send the fence north because a) putting a fence through the middle of a wildlife park is really bad PR, and b) it might be a wildlife park because it's really hard to build on, unlike the terrain SpaceX built on.

          • A wildlife preserve isn't a wildlife "park". It's basically just government owned wilderness.

            But to the original point, given the layout of that area, the unknowns of the actual extent of SpaceX property, and the lack of any ACTUAL course of where the wall will be built...it's a little early to be wetting our panties over the "terrible tragedy of how this wall is going to go 'right through' a SpaceX launchpad", no?

            Unless of course unsupported histrionics is one's goal?

            • A wildlife preserve isn't a wildlife "park". It's basically just government owned wilderness.

              But to the original point, given the layout of that area, the unknowns of the actual extent of SpaceX property, and the lack of any ACTUAL course of where the wall will be built...

              Except that elected officials have seen a map showing the wall going through the SpaceX launchpad and DHS requested access to survey the property.

              What more evidence do you need that DHS is considering a wall through the SpaceX facility?

              it's a little early to be wetting our panties over the "terrible tragedy of how this wall is going to go 'right through' a SpaceX launchpad", no? Unless of course unsupported histrionics is one's goal?

              Well no, the goal is to raise the alarm and stop a stupid policy decision before it's gone too far to be stopped.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's okay, they can just cut a hole in it with a $5 hacksaw.

        https://www.nbcnews.com/politi... [nbcnews.com]

  • We can't read the linked article because it's paywalled, but did SpaceX actually locate half its facility in Mexico? If not, then any wall that does get built will not divide the facility. If it actually does straddle the border, then just set the Mexican half up as a maquiladora.

    • No, it is a couple of miles inland from the border.

      And it really isn't like anyone was planning to build the wall through the launchpad either. The article says that they've been contacted about letting people in to do a site survey but haven't yet.

  • It won't be cutting anything in half since it will never exist. This isn't a taunt, it's simply a political reality because if it was ever going to happen then it would have happened when Republicans controlled both chambers of congress. The reality is that neither party really wants the wall but Republicans in congress are demanding it now because they know there is no danger of it being built and only wish to be viewed as in favor of it.

    • They didn't have 60 in the Senate to beat a fillibuster, so your point isn't valid.

      • There was nothing to filibuster. They never broached the subject at all.

        • by tomhath ( 637240 )
          They never broached it because it had no chance. Both sides are posturing to make the other look bad in the run-up to 2020. At this point I think the Republicans are slightly ahead because they've reminded everyone why Pelosi was kicked out of the Speaker's chair eight years ago.
          • That might be the plan, but there's a wildcard in play: Trump. He isn't a conventional politician, he doesn't care to appeal to moderates at all, and he is unpredictable. It's quite possible that he will resort to extreme measures to build the wall, like declaring a state of emergency or reclassifying it as an anti-drugs measure. The resulting legal mess could take a decade to resolve in court through all the inevitable jurisdictional games and appeals, during which time it is possible that some part of the

  • You just get, and build the launchpad ON the wall.
    This way it is a wall AND a launchpad.

    Until System-D grows even larger and the wall becomes part of it as well of course.

  • Here on the other side of the planet, I was taught that the US is a representative democracy, with Rule of Law.
    So the president must obey the law, and the congress passes the law.
    Therefore, if congress opposes the wall, that should be the end of it.
    Surely the talk of emergency powers is a bluff, and it would never survive a court challenge?

    So why doesn't Trump just give up, and blame the awful congress for its failure? Surely all his advisers have told him it was a stupid idea that would never work?
    If he i

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