Are Two Spaces After a Period Better Than One? (arstechnica.com) 391
Researchers at Skidmore College conducted an eye-tracking experiment with 60 Skidmore students and found that two spaces at the end of a period slightly improved the processing of text during reading. Ars Technica reports the findings: Previous cognitive science research has been divided on the issue. Some research has suggested closer spacing of the beginning of a new sentence may allow a reader to capture more characters in their parafoveal vision -- the area of the retina just outside the area of focus, or fovea -- and thus start processing the information sooner (though experimental evidence of that was not very strong). Other prior research has inferred that an extra space prevents lateral interference in processing text, making it easier for the reader to identify the word in focus. But no prior research found by [study authors] Johnson, Bui, and Schmitt actually measured reader performance with each typographic scheme.
First, they divided their group of 60 research subjects by way of a keyboard task -- the subjects typed text dictated to them into a computer and were sorted into "one-spacers" (39 regularly put a single space between sentences) and "two-spacers" (21 hit that space bar twice consistently after a period). Every student subject used but a single space after each comma. Having identified subjects' proclivities, the researchers then gave them 21 paragraphs to read (including one practice paragraph) on a computer screen and tracked their eye movement as they read using an Eyelink 1000 video-based eye tracking system. [...] The "one-spacers" were, as a group, slower readers across the board (by about 10 words per minute), and they showed statistically insignificant variation across all four spacing practices. And "two-spacers" saw a three-percent increase in reading speed for paragraphs in their own favored spacing scheme. The controversial part of the study has to do with the 14 point Courier New font that the researchers presented to the students. "Courier New is a fixed-width font that resembles typewritten text -- used by hardly anyone for documents," reports Ars. "Even the APA suggests using 12 point Times Roman, a proportional-width font. Fixed-width fonts make a double-space more pronounced."
First, they divided their group of 60 research subjects by way of a keyboard task -- the subjects typed text dictated to them into a computer and were sorted into "one-spacers" (39 regularly put a single space between sentences) and "two-spacers" (21 hit that space bar twice consistently after a period). Every student subject used but a single space after each comma. Having identified subjects' proclivities, the researchers then gave them 21 paragraphs to read (including one practice paragraph) on a computer screen and tracked their eye movement as they read using an Eyelink 1000 video-based eye tracking system. [...] The "one-spacers" were, as a group, slower readers across the board (by about 10 words per minute), and they showed statistically insignificant variation across all four spacing practices. And "two-spacers" saw a three-percent increase in reading speed for paragraphs in their own favored spacing scheme. The controversial part of the study has to do with the 14 point Courier New font that the researchers presented to the students. "Courier New is a fixed-width font that resembles typewritten text -- used by hardly anyone for documents," reports Ars. "Even the APA suggests using 12 point Times Roman, a proportional-width font. Fixed-width fonts make a double-space more pronounced."
After a lifetime of reading text with 2 spaces.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it any wonder that the brain is optimized for 2 spaces after a period?
There's probably a part of the brain which is totally optimized for recognizing that particular text cue by the time you have read a few thousand sentences.
It's a fixed format font- so it will be different for proportional fonts and the sites I use already display both single and multiple spaces after a period as 'about 2 spaces". They don't alter the textual data- they just alter the way the text is displayed.
There's probably a benefit to some spacing difference vs "all run together text.with nospaces." But if everyone had been reading text with 1.5 or 2.7 spaces after a period since age 3 then the test would probably have found that was the ideal spacing.
Re:After a lifetime of reading text with 2 spaces. (Score:4, Informative)
No one has a lifetime of reading monospace text anymore, which is the only thing this study covered.
Also, in most cases text input have their spaces normalized.
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I personally think the preference for a visually distinc
Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers can add the space automatically though. If you look at the spaces after a period in any decent font, it's wider than the spaces after other letters.
Re: Of course (Score:3)
On a typewriter, it's fixed width font. And double space works there because you have varying amounts of spaces between letters. ie: more space between two l's than two m's. So having a longer pronounced space between sentences makes sense for visual categorization.
But in a variable width font (computers) the amount of space between letters is the same; words have a slightly longer standard. A period + single space between sentences is enough to differentiate itself from those between words. So why have dou
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This is true. I drew a penis bird on everything I signed for a week. Nobody said a word.
Fonts already solved that problem. (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly. The "researchers" at Skidmore ignored the fact that fonts have already solved the problem. In the future, I suggest that they skid less.
Fonts have NOT already solved that problem! (Score:3)
Fonts have not solved this problem, and the problem has actually gotten worse now that one-space-at-the-end-of-sentences has become the status quo.
We were told twenty (thirty?) years ago that computer typography would solve this problem, but that has not happened, even though the teaching and convention has changed. Fonts just add extra space after all periods, including inline abbreviations like Mr. Sure, higher-end desktop publishing knows the difference in-line periods and end-of-sentence-periods, but
nope (Score:3, Insightful)
Fonts did not solve this problem. Do you select a different space after a sentence or do you just press the space bar? The characters in a font do not know where they are. If you are lucky some software will fix this when the text is presented. Otherwise, it will not.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Interesting)
Not really, computer cannot really do this automatically except very complicated language-specific programs with lots of exceptions, because the "." is also used within sentences for abbreviations.
Sentence boundary disambiguation has always been a rather annoying problem.
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So this is really a stupid thing to be arguing over. I'm a two-space guy. Screens get dirty, and to me having the extra space makes it easier to distinguish a period from a speck of dirt which happens to fall right where a period could be. But I don't care if someone else types using one or two spaces. Even if it's a docume
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I have always used 2 spaces after a period. It was the way I learned typing and it seemed to me to make text more readable.
That was a problem for the publisher when I wrote my first book. The copy editors wiped out all the extra spaces at the end of sentences. Publishers do no want manuscripts with more than one space after a period. Period.
It was a really tough habit to break. But it only took writing 2 books to do it.
Old people read more? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Old people read more? (Score:4, Insightful)
Their test subjects were 60 college students. It's reasonable to assume that most of them have never seen a typewriter in the flesh, much less used one.
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Their test subjects were 60 college students. It's reasonable to assume that most of them have never seen a typewriter in the flesh, much less used one.
Shh, you're spoiling a cool narrative!
Re:Old people read more? (Score:4, Insightful)
And here's an article that does just that:
https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]
I agree with this guy. It's an aesthetic preference, so there's no right or wrong answer. I tend to prefer additional space after the end of a sentence, because it more easily allows me to see the logical break that should be represented by that sentence end. Since computers and displays today are capable of micro-adjustments to character spacing, and they also can tell where sentences end (unlike a typewriter), it's irrelevant how many spaces there are after a period in the source - the text can be (or should be able to be) displayed with my preferred spacing.
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When I see something double-spacing, I recognize that person as someone who is generally old enough to have learned on a typewriter (or the first generations of word processing), and who doesn't engage heavily with IT.
Or you see a professional programmer who spends a great deal of time writing code in monospace fonts, with extensive and properly-punctuated comments.
Personally, I try to remember to single-space after sentences when writing in proportional fonts, but I deliberately bias towards double-spacing because it's more important to me that my code have the double spaces than it is that my other writing have single spaces. I actually run a regexp on my code occasionally to find single-space instances and fix them,
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When I see something double-spacing, I recognize that person as someone who is generally old enough to have learned on a typewriter (or the first generations of word processing), and who doesn't engage heavily with IT. .
Those are both very poor assumptions. My school district growing up required double spacing for all papers. My university did, too. And I can tell you right now that personal computers were a thing before I was born. I sit at a computer all day, writing software and I double space everything that I write. It’s a habit that will never go away. I personally think it looks cleaner, too. But you feel free to use whatever spacing you prefer. Just don’t assume that someone double spaces becaus
It's the font that does the trick (Score:3, Informative)
Due to retina detachment I am almost blinded on one eye and the vision of other eye is slowly degrading
To compensate the gradual loss of vision I make the font of my computer screen much larger, and I change the font setting and use fonts that are much easier to my eyes
Now I can appreciate why good fonts are much better than lousy ones
Before I had that retina problem my vision was 20/20. I actually had a pilot license
At that time fonts for me were, well, fonts. Some were boring, some were pretty, some were crazy
Now, my view on the fonts (pun intended) has totally changed. Some of the fonts I used to think as 'funny' or 'pretty' are actually very tiring for my degrading eyes. Those which were deemed 'boring', on the other hand, surprised my eyes for they do not need to be 'stared' for too long
So it's not how many spaces after a period. It's the size of the font and the structure of the font that counts !!
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That is a good argument. The focus on the width of the space at the end loses sense of what is important for readability.
Also I have to know, which fonts do you prefer?
Re: It's the font that does the trick (Score:2)
Find/Replace (Score:2, Interesting)
They're fun to "find/replace" when some old type-writer-using geezer has put them in one of our document templates. Another favourite of mine is the guy who puts spaces after an opening bracket ( like so).
Re:Find/Replace (Score:5, Insightful)
So you're angry that the "old type-writer-using geezer" is reading ten words per minute more than you and you're trying to sabotage his productivity?
And millennials wonder why nobody likes them...
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Hey, take it easy, he was snapchatting about his artisanal toilet paper business plan at the same time he made his post. Something about Sears catalogs...
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Group A uses single spaces. They read single space and double space at the same rate.
Group B uses double spaces. They read single space at the same rate as Group A, but they read double spaced text considerably faster.
Seems like a pretty good argument that we should all be using double spaces. That way we all could read faster all the time.
Re:Find/Replace (Score:5, Interesting)
They're fun to "find/replace" when some old type-writer-using geezer has put them in one of our document templates. Another favourite of mine is the guy who puts spaces after an opening bracket ( like so).
Don't know if it is my dyslexia or just how I read but if I see function(variable), my brain just filters out the open parenthesis at first glance and reads everything as functionvariable. If I write it as function ( variable ), it just reads better for me, particularly when I start getting into complex logic conditions.
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I don't care if its function(variable) or function ( variable ). But if you do function ( variable), you will need to be stabbed.
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2 spaces (Score:3, Informative)
2 spaces and the Oxford comma! You one space kids with your missing commas can get off my lawn!
Re:2 spaces (Score:4, Interesting)
2 spaces and the Oxford comma! You one space kids with your missing commas can get off my lawn!
Please call it the Serial Comma. My, Oxford trained, English teacher was quite specific that putting a comma between the penultimate item and the "and" was wrong.
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So he should have said, Space, space and the serial comma! You one space kids with your missing commas can get off my lawn!
Summary (Score:2)
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Obligatory XKCD quote (Score:5, Funny)
There is no difference (Score:2)
I'm not sure why this is being discussed. It makes absolutely no difference how many spaces you put after a period. See, that was one space. That was 2 spaces and it looks exactly the same. This time I used 3 spaces. That was 8 spaces, and here comes 13. Could you tell the difference? I didn't think so.
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Also, generally on the web, browsers render HTML multiple spaces as a single space - try using instead.
-
Here's the correctly spaced version of your text:
I'm not sure why this is being discussed. It makes absolutely no difference how many spaces you put after a period. See, that was one space. That was 2 spaces and it looks exactly the same. This time I used 3 spaces. That was 8 spaces, a
Re:There is no difference (Score:4, Funny)
Why did I count the spaces to make sure you had it correct?
Whitespace is relevant (Score:2)
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Not at the end...
The IgNobel Committee called... (Score:2)
Researchers at Skidmore College conducted an eye-tracking experiment with 60 Skidmore students and found that two spaces at the end of a period slightly improved the processing of text during reading.
I think we have a candidate for the IgNobel Prize in Who Gives a Shit for 2018.
Use commata (Score:2)
I agree (Score:2)
and nitpicking over starting the first world in each new sentence with a capital letter is stupid. but double space after the period and comma is good
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1 space (Score:2)
Two-Spaces here (Score:2, Interesting)
The thing with using paragraphs, sentences, etc, is that it allows one to bite off bits of information. We already use em-dashes to mark off particular clauses we wish to emphersise -- to this point -- but now argue about spaces. White-space helps the reader catch the large-scale of the text. Setting a sentence off in double-space is one devise that does this. Even in the font i type here, it is easier to pick sentences off.
Paragraphs are likewise set off by a blank line, or first-line indent. Where f
One (Score:2)
The flaw isn't the font. (Score:5, Funny)
So what did they really demonstrate? That people who don't know how to write don't read very well either.
The worst aspect of the results is that in a sample of 60 college students more than half didn't know how to write! How the F do 39 out of 60 college students not know how many spaces to use?? What the F are they doing in college???
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Incidentally, this "utterly basic rule" is unknown in Europe as far as I can tell. So it is not "basic" at all.
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Its not an "utterly basic rule" of grammar. Its not even a grammar rule. Its an inheritance from early typewriters that had fixed width letters and double space increased legibility. Its a rule based on "This is how we did it." The research above was probably done many times over in defining the double space on typewriters 100+ years ago.
If you go back to typesetters, they don't use double space because they always had variable width letters (think Ben Franklin times). Double space in a book also ends
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What the F are they doing in college???
Learning to blame their problems on everyone but themselves.
Depends on the girl (Score:4, Funny)
Most only need one space after their period before we're back in business. Some though have a little extra surge at the end, so two spaces is a safer bet. Unfortunately you don't know until you "know", if you know what I mean.
Time to change writing? (Score:3)
Ever taken a ruler and held it over the bottom half of a line of text and been surprised that you can still easily read it? If we cut letters in two we can increase the amount of information on a page and probably be able to what I would call "chunk read," or absorb information and meaning more quickly. It would make, I think, the "parafoveal" capture of extra characters easier. Also, we need to progress to an "emotional alphabet," something like: "a" with a following up arrow indicating rising anger, "j" with a down arrow indicating decreasing jealousy, "h" with an equal sign indicating a sustaining level of hate, etc. It could be much more complicated and subtle. I called it "emotional algebra" to order my thinking. Don't tell me about emoticons. They are for children.
Janet looked at Amelia and smiled brightly while putting out her hand at the business conference. (without emotional algebra, just a couple of actions)
Janet looked at Amelia and smiled brightly while putting out her hand at the business conference. (j,h{up arrow}) [And now we know her internal state while she performed those actions]
tabs or spaces... (Score:2)
hah! but yes two spaces after a period is my default and i believe easier to read. I try to leave two spaces when I write by hand but it never works out. :)
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I prefer tabs but the Slashdot IDE doesn't allow it. If they would finally support Unicode imagine all the great whitespaces we would have then!
"Slightly" already covers it (Score:2)
If you have a "slight" effect, there is a large probability that something else caused it or that it is just statistical variation. Also, a "slight" effect is usually not worth the effort for the change and may well come with a "slight" negative effect as well. I know that whenever I read a text with these two spaces, I get offended at the ugliness. That would offset any benefit in reading comprehension.
Yes/No Headlines. (Score:2)
Betteridge's law of headlines holds the answer yet again.
WHERE'S THE ALL CAPS STUDY? (Score:3)
WHERE'S THE ALL CAPS STUDY?
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Not all caps. What we NEED is a study of the RANDOMLY capitalized words that liberals are so FOND of using.
It was COMICAL to see them using it on each other it in the HACKED emails from DNC.
If you single space you are wrong! (Score:2)
tolerance (Score:3)
. is a Full Stop (Score:2)
or a decimal point
or a dot
The period is the inverse of (as in one divided by) the frequency
As a male I don't have to worry about the biological definition of period
(I was born in an English speaking country)
and while we're at it
# is a hash (the pound sign is a curly L)
@ is an at
And element number 13 is Aluminium
Another cause (Score:2)
I believe there is another cause for this.
The "one-spacers" ... showed statistically insignificant variation across all four spacing practices.
So individuals that are likely oblivious to the practice of using double spaces after a period saw no discernible difference in reading speed regardless of the amount of space after a period. To me, these individuals represent the physical reality of whether the spacing makes any difference in how easily the words can be seen and read. The result is that it makes no difference on the physical ability to identify and read words and sentences.
"two-spacers" saw a three-percent increase in reading speed for paragraphs in their own favored spacing scheme.
Let's phrase that differ
Type 2 Spaces, Let the Computer Sort it Out (Score:5, Insightful)
Typing two spaces at the end of a sentence indicates a between-sentences gap, as opposed to a between-words gap. That may or may not be the same amount of space. If you're using a proportional font, then you're relying on the computer to handle the spacing, and this should be no different. Perhaps two spaces should kern together to be the equivalent of 1.2 spaces, and that sort of rule can be handled by the font.
The problem is that determining the difference between the end of a sentence and a period that just ends an abbreviation is quite difficult. That's something that requires natural language analysis, not something simple like kerning that is part of the design of proportional fonts.
So everyone should continue to learn to type with two spaces after a period. We know it's superior for fixed-space fonts. Computers should be taught to do the right thing for proportional fonts. If they don't, file a bug report.
Welcome to the wonderful world of mind control. (Score:3)
Unicode doesn't even support the concept of a less than full stop.
There's no reasonable way to differentiate the period after an abbreviation like "Mr.", from one at the end of a sentence.
CSS doesn't let you control the number of spaces that follow a period - the authors of CSS apparently didn't believe this was a "style" choice.
What if the "best" choice was 1.5 spaces between sentences?
The actual rule is..... (Score:2)
Two spaces after the period in a mono spaced font, one space in a proportional spaced font. The reason for this is simple, in a proportional space font the spacing of the letters may be smaller than the space, which remains fixed.
I learned this from someone who was a professional secretary who could see the difference at 10 feet.
Re:please, do not break a language (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a search function that doesn't ignore whitespace, you're probably onto a loser before you even start.
Plus, why would you search for an entire sentence + follow on sentence in one search? That's just going to end in disaster whether it's a double-space, a new-line, a new paragraph or anything else.
"Ignore whitespace" is an option in your searches for a reason.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This should be a precise search, I have to find exactly the title, which I need. No error is allowed.
Certainly, I can solve this programmatically. But why to add more entropy, more disorder, more lack of predictability into the human language, which is a me
Re:please, do not break a language (Score:5, Interesting)
Because you have humans using the system.
Which is why you "ignore whitespace" and code it as an option wherever it's needed. If anything, it actually makes searching FASTER, because an exact-whitespace match takes longer to find.
When you then put in Unicode, other languages, non-breaking spaces, paragraph marks, and you're working on human-entered data, you're really onto a loser from the start if you have coded anything on a byte-for-byte matching process.
Also, your system works against you in more ways than one. Someone creates an entry with one space. Someone else doesn't see it so they create it with two. Now you have two entirely different entries with different data referring to different database rows, but both "look" identical.
Ignore whitespace, and the problem solves itself.
Re:please, do not break a language (Score:5, Insightful)
"But we had one certain thing about a human language, - that the words are separated with a space, with one space."
I hate to break it to you.... people (like myself) were taught to use two spaces after a full-stop for DECADES. The predecessors of ubiquitous computing were all taught like that as the only reference was typewriters and which were often taught to double-space.
This is not a "now we'll have a problem". This is a "You've already had this problem for a very long time and it's never been standardised, so don't make bad assumptions".
You are much more likely to find existing users using double-space-after-period than you are younger users.
Fact is, there is no such standard. What standards they were stayed the same from typewriters to PCs, but then changed to this "one-space" system, and now people are arguing over "one-space vs two-space" again. So you have to code to account for all situations anyway.
Sort is more problematic, sure, but again ignoring whitespace in sort is incredibly easily (and actually beneficial... did you enter the book title as "whitehouse" or "white house"? Surely you want those listed close to each other).
This was never a given. I was EXPLICITLY taught, less than 30 years ago, to double-space after periods. It's a habit you'll find throughout this post (which I'm writing at 100+ WPM). Maybe the new generations weren't but you can't just assume that.
Don't even get me started on spaces (and punctuation) when they are near / inside the end of quotes, semi-colons, etc.
Stop making bad coding assumptions where they relate to human-entered or human-visible data (which INCLUDES search criteria, and the original entered data).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, look at that.... Slashdot replaces double-space after period with single space. This is definitely two spaces to the left. And now three spaces to the left of that.
When even Slash has it in code they haven't updated properly in decades and can't have UK pound signs (you get this junk:
£), you know you're onto a loser!
Re:please, do not break a language (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, look at that.... Slashdot replaces double-space after period with single space. ...
It is not Slashdot. It is a browser and the HTML. Two or three spaces are always one in the browser https://stackoverflow.com/ques... [stackoverflow.com]
So a client of an Internet shop sees always one space, and it is confusing for her/him why the product does not sort properly.
In fact, I had a lot of problems with these multiple spaces coming with product titles from suppliers. And I do not work only with English language.
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Kind of a bitch when posting, say python scripts.
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you can indent if you like
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That's what the <pre> tag is for.
Speaking of autocorrect. Refactor, not de-facto (Score:2, Funny)
That should be "hell to refactor". Dyac. See, even THINKING about Python causes mistakes.
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people (like myself) were taught to use two spaces after a full-stop for DECADES. The predecessors of ubiquitous computing were all taught like that as the only reference was typewriters and which were often taught to double-space.
I was taught this way. This was when fixed-width fonts dominated typing. Now that fixed-width fonts are no longer the norm, I've switched to a single space after the period. My inner pedant screamed at first, but he got over it.
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In variable-width fonts, the extra space is more helpful. Spaces tend to be narrower from the start, so the extra gap between thoughts is needed.
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Aside from the use of the Euro-ism "full stop" instead of period, exactly correct. This has been a rule of English for centuries, it's p
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This sometimes leads people to write code with TABS in it, which is something that should be stamped out every time it is found
I'm looking at 340k lines of C++ with at least one tab on most lines. What's the problem?
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I'm British.
You're just as wrong to make that assumption as the OP.
Re:please, do not break a language (Score:4, Funny)
However, after their period, most typists are approaching maximum fertility, and you might want to give some of them extra space.
These days, a lot of typists are male and don't have periods. You might want to avoid them too.
Most web browsers are crap, and their handling of white space sucks. Too bad you can't avoid them at any time of the month.
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Ah, the modern world. You must do it this way because we have one broken-ass piece of software that can't handle it any other way.
Also, you're holding your phone wrong.
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Certain? Hardly [spellingcity.com].
You ignore the fact that languages such as English and German evolve, in part, through the gradual creation of compound words [thehistoryofenglish.com]. "Air port" was in the running up until ~1925 [google.com], then *poof*, the space went away in the vast majority of use cases.
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If you aren't normalizing your text data and your searches then your database is worthless anyway.
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Re:please, do not break a language (Score:4, Informative)
/*Standard SQL*\ /*Depending of SQL Server commands there may be some difference*\
select * from table where title like '%first_word %second_word%'
or
select * from table where replace(title,' ','') = "first_wordsecond_word"
However the general rule of thumb is no matter what the writing conventions are. If humans are putting it in the system, there will be mistakes.
So "Hello World" vs "HelloWorld" (Slashdot cleared out my two non-breaking space) is a possible chance.
For the most part on big databases for searching I often will need to use a Levenshtein or Jaro algorithm, with normalizing white spaces. Just because human error is so common.
LIKE kinda sorta sometimes works. Use FULLTEXT (Score:2)
Your example using LIKE kinda, sorta works, sometimes. It rather slow as well.
Full text search works better and faster.
https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refm... [mysql.com]
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com]
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There are different kind of searches. For example, we have got a database with six million product titles. Suddenly we may get two identical to human eye titles, but which differ just by a single, almost unnoticeable, space. Or two spaces, or three.
That's just bad design and why numbers exist. Well, not why but it's a use for them that's for sure.
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I do searches expecting whitespaces and hate those searches that ignore it.
If I am searching for the word pat, I add a whitespace before or after it so I don't get every result that has pat in the word (pattern, patient, patsy, etc)
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I prefer two spaces in searching text. It's easier to write a regex that will match a sentence break without also matching common abbreviations like Mr./Mrs./Ms./St./ P.S./i.e./ex./ etc.
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I am not following you. Are you talking about a Hex Editor layout, so a Hex values would be "6c69 6b65 2074 6869 733f"
But nearly any search algorithm doesn't care about the space unless you say search for word with a space. And why the heck would you want to sort a document? if you were you just ignore spaces. I run into more coding exceptions when I get other characters such as " ' { } > < & because normally they will conflict with secondary systems such as SQL, JSON, HTML or XML. Yes the fixes a
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Since when? Double spacing was recommended for decades when typing documents. Going to a single space is what is new.
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Wrong. Just dead wrong.
Which part? One being enough, the pretentious or the consistency?
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Nah. The emacs vs. vi argument [wikipedia.org] will be the start of WWIII -- or maybe the indentation style [wikipedia.org] debate.
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Daily reminder: Hillary is going to die in prison. And only one "space" is available.
Are you that desperate for distraction you're still doing that same old line? How's the wall coming?