Meet the Interstitium, the Largest Organ We Never Knew We Had (thedailybeast.com) 208
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Daily Beast: A study published in Scientific Reports on Tuesday suggests that a previously unknown organ has been found in the human body. More astonishingly, the paper puts forth the idea that this new organ is the largest by volume among all 80 organs -- if what the researchers found is, in fact, an organ. The new organ, [pathologist Neil Theise] explained, was a thin layer of dense connective tissue throughout the body, sandwiched just under our skin and within the middle layer of every visceral organ. The organ also made up all the fascia, or the thin mesh of tissue separating every muscle and all the tissue around every vein and artery, from largest to smallest. What initially seemed to be a solid, dense, connective tissue layer was actually a complex network of fluid-filled cavities that are strong and flexible, yet so tiny and undiscerning that they escaped the attention of the brightest scientific minds for generations. In fact, Theise expanded, this "interstitium" could explain many of modern medicine's mysteries, often dismissed by the establishment as either silly or explainable by other phenomena. Take acupuncture, Theise said -- that energetic healing jolt may be traced to the interstitium. Or perhaps the interstitium acted as a "shock absorber," something that protected other organs and muscles in daily function. Also, the space is in direct communication with the lymphatic system as the origin of lymph fluid -- which means the interstitium's system of fluid-filled backroads could explain the metastasis of cancer cells and their quick spread beyond the limits of the organ in which the cancer started.
Get ready for a new bad analogy! (Score:5, Funny)
What initially seemed to be a solid, dense, connective tissue layer was actually a complex network of fluid-filled cavities that are strong and flexible
I propose:
The interstitium is the body's internet.
After all, it's a very small layer of tubes that transmits through the entire body...
Wait, I don't get it (Score:2)
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how does this relate to and compare with cars?
When you are sick, it's like your interstitialian is a highway that's jammed with traffic.
Alternately, you could say if the human being were a car, the interstiliarium is roughly equivalent to the rich Corinthian leather covering the seats and dash.
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Since the bloodstream and lymphatic system also connect different tissues together in an already well demonstrated fluid transfer network of blood vessels, the transfer of cancerous cells from one organ to another would not seem to require explanation. And since acupuncture consistently fails double blind experiments, that would seem to be another "mystery of modern medicine" that would seem to be already explained, as a placebo effect.
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You can not really test accupuncture with double blind studies, or how should the one poking you not know, kr know if he is really poking you? And how can you mot know if you get poked or not?
There where attempts with double blind studies, where they used kind of electrodes to cause a fake sensation: turned out that electric stimulation had the same effect as a real needle. Hence we have since 30 years electronic and even laser based self accupuncture aparatus.
And accupuncture works quite fine, no idea why
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Because everything ELSE has evolved, and everything ELSE in our lives has been created based on solid scientific evidence, statistics, causality, and logic.
With acupuncture people pulled an idea out of their hat and tried to shoehorn it under a microscope looking for evidence that it may have some logic or causality other than the placebo effect, selection bias and sampling errors etc.
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And how do you know that?
Any evidence for it?
Re: Wait, I don't get it (Score:2, Informative)
The problem is that acupuncture rarely has effects either. In every test it has shown to only be as effective as a placebo. Even in China it was recognized as quackery and outlawed.
Re:Wait, I don't get it (Score:5, Informative)
> You can not really test acupuncture with double blind studies, or how should the one poking you not know, kr know if he is really poking you?
It's testable by "poking" somewhere else than where the practitioner would plan. As I understand it, Different practitioners have different patterns for what disorders or issues are treated by different acupuncture points. If there is no verifiable association between the acupuncture points and the disorders, if it doesn't matter which acupuncture points are used, then that indicates it's a placebo effect.
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Double-blind means that the person administering the treatment or placebo does not know the difference (in addition to the patient). So if you are being poked in a place other than where the practitioner would plan, then you might have a problem being able to do a double-blind study. In general, if a procedure or theory is not falsifiable (testable) then its probably a sham.
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Double-blind means that the person administering the treatment or placebo does not know the difference (in addition to the patient).
Double-blind study means that neither patient or person _compiling the results_ knows if this was placebo or real treatment. In many cases outside of simple medicine switch, person executing the experiment (as it goes outside of just medical subjects) is very well aware if it is real or not, he just labels it in secret which will get revealed after all the single measurements and compilations on A/B (rather than placebo/real) are finished.
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As I understand it, Different practitioners have different patterns for what disorders or issues are treated by different acupuncture points.
Actually they don't have.
If there is no verifiable association between the acupuncture points and the disorders, if it doesn't matter which acupuncture points are used, then that indicates it's a placebo effect. :D
Yes, but first of all: that is not a double blind study
Secondly: there is no such study, but if you know one, a link would be interesting. To see what they a
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>> As I understand it, Different practitioners have different patterns for what disorders or issues are treated by different acupuncture points.
> Actually they don't have.
There is, as best I can tell, no master map used by all or even most practitioners. The Google images for acupressure points show this: The variety of needle locations for ear, foot, or hand to treat the same disorders provides a good sense of the lack of consistency among these practitioners.
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
I've
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The idea that specific points treat specific ailments comes from every acupuncture map published, and the acupuncturists themselves. What precisely makes you think that they do not associate specific points with treating specific disorders?
Re:Wait, I don't get it (Score:5, Informative)
And accupuncture works quite fine, no idea why americans are so anti to thousands of years old proven working technologies, that basically cost nothing und rarely have side effects.
Replace "americans" with "rational people" and you will get an answer.
For example, you will learn that the whole
"thousands of years" is bullshit [sciencebasedmedicine.org].
Oops.
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Unfortunately the famous Oetzi has most interesting acupuncture points tatooed on his body, he is about 5,000 years dead.
The early emperors of China did mass studies with POWs ... killed a few 10,000 people in that process in the attempt to find deep in the body acupuncture points on the "Facia skin" around organs.
That is all well documented and can still be read in modern libraries, in China. Unfortunately you have to be able to read "old school" Chinese characters or trust your translator.
Oops!!
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Unfortunately the famous Oetzi has most interesting acupuncture points tatooed on his body,
Oetzi had tattoos. You need to show that they are acupuncture points. I have friends with similar designs that have nothing to do with acupuncture and everything to do with following body features.
That is all well documented ... Unfortunately you have to ... trust your translator.
Joseph Smith of the Mormons used a similar argument.
Oops!!
TL:DR "I have this really compelling evidence that I can't show you"
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I don't have to prove anything.
We have thousand years old mummies, with tattos at/around acupuncture points.
If you want to prove that it has nothing to to do with acupuncure, you are my guest.
Ever heard about Occams Razor?
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If you want to prove that it has nothing to to do with acupuncure, you are my guest.
Easy.
Take a random sample of people and drive them down the same country road. At the end, ask them individually for the landmarks along the way that they remember.
There is a good chance that you will have a considerable overlap, wouldn't you agree?
Same with the human body. If you are looking for interesting places to prick, or to paint, you will likely end up with similar locations. Especially with a large sample.
Ever heard about Occams Razor?
Yes, and now you have, too.
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I checked up on Oetzi since my ancient Chinese is a bit rusty.
The acupuncture hypothesis is that exactly, and it is brought forth by acupuncture people (main claim "these tattoos are at the locations which I would prick today"). Even they admit that a third or so of the points don't make sense to them.
Fact is that we don't know. People who believe in acupuncture have thrown up a theory that these tattoos are related to acupuncture.
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And accupuncture works quite fine, no idea why americans are so anti to thousands of years old proven working technologies, that basically cost nothing und rarely have side effects.
So, eating ground tiger penis is better than viagra?
Re:Wait, I don't get it (Score:4, Funny)
"So, eating ground tiger penis is better than viagra?"
No, that's pure bullshit, rhino horn is the only thing that works.
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You can not really test accupuncture with double blind studies, or how should the one poking you not know, kr know if he is really poking you? And how can you mot know if you get poked or not?
There where attempts with double blind studies, where they used kind of electrodes to cause a fake sensation: turned out that electric stimulation had the same effect as a real needle. Hence we have since 30 years electronic and even laser based self accupuncture aparatus.
And accupuncture works quite fine, no idea why americans are so anti to thousands of years old proven working technologies, that basically cost nothing und rarely have side effects.
They've proven through experiment that acupuncture is worthless. It doesn't matter at all whether the acupuncturist uses the "correct" points or if they make up locations to stick in the needle, or whether they pierce the skin or just poke you with a pointy tool.
The double blind is that the person recording the experiment and tallying results, and the patient, doesn't know if the "professional" used the right point or not. Or if the skin was pierced. They just confirm the report from the patient on their sy
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or how should the one poking you not know, kr know if he is really poking you? And how can you mot know if you get poked or not?
Easy.
Leave the poking to the assistant who doesn't know jack shit about where he/she SHOULD poke - just how to stick the needle into a predesignated spot marked on a drawing.
Compare results of "real acupuncture" to "randomly poking with needles" and "deliberately wrong acupuncture" - giving patients "cures" which would promote their illness.
If it works - it'll show.
As for the subject not knowing... there are several ways.
Subject could be just poked, without actually being stuck with a needle.
Subject could b
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Subject could be just poked, without actually being stuck with a needle.
Does not really work, as poking is enough in most cases.
Subject could be given a local or general anesthetic. ... but I guess it only would work if the subject does not notice the poke.
That is interesting
Subject could be asleep.
If you do not wake up from that, I guess you have a problem that requires more hard core treatment.
Subject could have severed nerves.
Subject could have spinal injury.
Subject could be in a coma.
That is actually do
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A quick google. Maybe you should do some more reading
Subject could be just poked, without actually being stuck with a needle.
Does not really work, as poking is enough in most cases.
Acupuncture Just As Effective Without Needle Puncture [sciencedaily.com]
Subject could be given acupuncture without knowing which kind is it ("right", "wrong", "fake") - while being informed that the choice will be random.
That is not what a double blind study is about. The subject has to be convinced that it gets the real thing.
Sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture: a systematic review of clinical trials [nih.gov]
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I propose:
The interstitium is the body's internet.
After all, it's a very small layer of tubes that transmits through the entire body...
...and it's mostly used for porn?
The Value of Walking (Score:5, Interesting)
The Interstitium would help to explain the value of walking, shifting around the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org], providing background circulation of fluids. It would help to explain why people find comfort in a peace amble, especially those suffering from mental conditions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] could be a form of internalised therapy, to make up for stress affecting other fluid flows. Got nothing better to do, walk around you home to keep circulation going, whilst waiting for water to boil for a cuppa, or while roasting a steak, just a peaceful amble about to home to stimulate Interstitium fluid flows, the expansive and contracts of major muscle groups would certainly move that fluid around the body.
New insight on diseases and aging? (Score:4, Interesting)
Now that this structure of what appears to be the container for the extracellular fluid and a major shock absorber for tissues has been identified, it will be interesting to see what disease processes might be the result of degradation of its function.
I'd expect examination of breakdowns in this system to result in the causes of several diseases, currently dismissed as psychosomatic or as real but mysteries, to be identified.
I'd also expect that the structure might degrade in old age, and that this might be another source of age-related problems.
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but also believes that the pyramids are grain silos built for Joseph's prophesied famine
As opposed to the guy who thinks they were hydraulic rams for pumping irrigation water (high volume, low rise, for a long run to the fields) and has working models to show for it. B-)
We need a "I am Joe's Interstitium" to explain it (Score:3, Interesting)
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So itâ(TM)s basically bubble wrap? (Score:2)
So weâ(TM)re basically little air bags all surrounded by bubble wrap. Once we become a space faring civilizations, aliens will find us, cut us open, and wonder why someone shipped empty parcels all over the universe.
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So weâ(TM)re basically little air bags all surrounded by bubble wrap..
From which some people gain inner peace by popping bits of the bubble wrap with pins. THIS is what explains acupuncture.
Old news ... (Score:2, Interesting)
Everyone who practices Chi Gong or other internal arts knows that ... since millennia.
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Qi Gong is right up there with homeopathy, anti-vaccination, and is often literal bedfellows with traditional medicine made up of ground endangered species penises to make the Qi Gong practitioners more virile.
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Let's be charitable. Acupuncture, properly done, has few or no adverse effects. The only way it's likely to be harmful is if someone relies on it instead of getting effective medical treatment. You can't say nearly the same about anti-vaxx movements.
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That Chi Gong is good because it "cultivates and balances your qi (life energy)" is nonsense ...
And why would that be?
Exercising your Facia and have it in good shape is nonsense, but exercising your muscles is good? Does not really make sense to me
But no worries ... if you exercise in the proper context you exercise your Qi/Chi/Ki/Facia automatically ... regardless if you "believe in it" or dismiss it as nonsense.
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If, when injured, we reduce exercise to avoid either pain or aggravating the injury, our bones will become weaker and more porous, lean muscle mass will drop and consequently the metabolism will slow (slowing healing). This can lead to a vicious spiral where the inactivity compounds the pain and damage. Even in healthy adults who become more sedentary as they age, this is noticeable and many of the effects that we attribute to age are more correctly attributed to an increasingly sedentary lifestyle.
Conseque
Fake medicine (Score:2)
Everyone who practices Chi Gong or other internal arts knows that ... since millennia.
Oh do they now? Are you seriously claiming that QiGong [wikipedia.org] is anything more than a mild form of exercise? In spite of the fact that there is little evidence [wikipedia.org] to support its efficacy for any specific health benefit.
You know what they call alternative medicine that is shown to actually work? Medicine.
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Yes,
I have thousands of cases of evidence that QiGong is a very healthy thing.
And those who practice know about "how it works", the "modern word" is Facia.
Assuming that QiGong is a mild exercise is idiotic. It is a martial art and healing system.
E.g. you might look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] probably you find better videos, but I'm to lazy to do your work for you.
Medicine helps in situations where medicine helps ... e.g. a common cold. It does not really help when you have a slipped disc. Qi
Credulous fools (Score:2)
I have thousands of cases of evidence that QiGong is a very healthy thing.
No you do not. You certainly do not have an proper studies of such nonsense.
Assuming that QiGong is a mild exercise is idiotic. It is a martial art and healing system.
It is neither a martial art nor is there any evidence that it is a healing system. There is nothing martial about it. I've been involved in various martial arts my whole life and QuGong is exactly the sort of fraudlent crap that guilible people like yourself get sold. I'm betting you think tai chi is a fighting art too. Most of the so called martial arts are really stylized dance classes with a bit of mythology tacked on. Fun,
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Lease send me a link that shows that someone studied if QiGong is a healing system.
I really doubt any westerner ever cared to make a study about it.
That it is a martial art is obviously without doubt. If you don't know that, you should probably realy consider to stop posting about topics you have no clue about?
Your MMA reference spoiled it completely, there is no martial art called MMA. MMA is a entertaining competitive fighting event where people who do diverent Martial arts (the second M) can be Mixed (th
Prove it (Score:2)
maybe they did demonstrate their claims using the most empirical method of all: "Does it work?"
If it actually works it should be straight forward to actually prove it. Placebos "work" (sometimes) but we don't rely on them for treatment for good reasons.
Connective Tissue (Score:2)
Re: Connective Tissue (Score:2)
Explain how skin is an organ.
Re: Connective Tissue (Score:5, Funny)
Explain how a machine that makes noise by blowing air through pipes is an organ.
Re: Connective Tissue (Score:2)
Did you mean "a series of tubes"?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Organs are collections of tissues with a similar function. Skin is a collection of tissues which all perform a similar function.
Explain how you do not know what an organ is. This is one of the first things that comes up in basic grade school biology.
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The definition of organ has changed a bit over time. Originally, the organs were separable things that you can chop out with a knife. Most of them still are, but over the years the definition has been extended to include skin (which you can cut off with a knife, but is pretty diffiuse), and things like blood (which is a liquid).
Is this an organ? Well, the daily beast says that the author of the paper says that it is. But the paper that they reference does not claim this at all. And given that they are descr
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Lazy (Score:2)
Nerds, please explain how that is an organ.
If you aren't a nerd yourself then slashdot isn't the place for you. Go figure it out yourself.
Does it detect clickbait? (Score:2)
Your doctor doesn't want you to know about it.
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This one weird organ was discovered by a stay at home mom who now earns $3,453 per week working part-time!
Lost wme with one line (Score:2)
there is no "healing jolt" (shame acupuncture works as well as acupuncture - both can be explained with placebo and similar effects - there is demonstrably no healing compared to control group, just in some cases lesser perception of pain).
Re:Lost wme with one line (Score:5, Funny)
there is no "healing jolt" ...
You may know it better as the backhand, or the bitchslap.
Really an organ? (Score:2)
Common definitions of an organ, Webster:
> a. differentiated structure (such as a heart, kidney, leaf, or stem) consisting of cells and tissues and performing some specific function in an organism.
> b. bodily parts performing a function or cooperating in an activity the eyes and related structures that make up the visual organs.
Wikipedia:
> Organs are collections of tissues with a similar function.
Britannica:
> a group of tissues in a living organism that have been adapted to perform a specific fun
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FTA:
"The characteristic histological features of this bile duct submucosa structure (spaces filled with fluid and with collagen bundles lined asymmetrically by flat cells) are readily visualized in other tissues."
This fits all definitions you posted, it is a a structure or group of tissues with some particular function that is part of the human organism. It is as much as an organ as the skin, it fits the same definition.
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So, the lymphatic system? (Score:2)
Re:Largest organ? (Score:5, Informative)
In any case it's complete bollocks, the Boardwalk Hall Auditorium Organ [wikipedia.org] is the largest organ. Everyone knows that.
Well, everyone should know it.
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Damn, 11 minutes in and already the thread is Trumpwin'd.
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Why don't you show us a random controlled trial that demonstrates that true acupuncture is actually working better than placebo acupuncture where you stick the needles in random places ?
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Because I'm pretty sure that you don't read mandarin. 90% of the literature over the last 3000 years is unfortunately not english or available as translation. And I have not the time to search for you english literature.
If you were actually interested in that topic you had informed yourself long ago.
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90% of the literature over the last 3000 years is unfortunately not english or available as translation.
Nearly 100% of literature on Atlantis over the last thousands of years isn't in English either.
Same goes for various gods, angels, witches, wizards, jinns, devils, demons...
And why bother with thousands of years? Wouldn't a modern, scientifically proven, examples suffice?
It's not like it's something that USED TO WORK but now the magnetic poles have shifted, ice caps have melted, we're on Mars...
You know... like magic and dragons.
If you were actually interested in that topic you had informed yourself long ago.
I don't know... sound's a lot like that onus probandi [wikipedia.org] thing, which is also orig
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And why bother with thousands of years? Wouldn't a modern, scientifically proven, examples suffice?
It would.
But unfortunately it is forbidden to do experiments on prisoners of war. Also, we have no 10,000ds of POWs in modern times.
On the other hand you simply can read if a illness you suffer from has a an acupuncture treatment and try it. For that you do not need any outside party to make a study first ...
And it would cost next to nothing, compared with modern medicine costs for pills.
Re: Top Tier publishing at its finest (Score:2)
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Serious question: why would I?
If you are interested into the topic, do your own research.
If you are not, fine for me.
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And I have not the time to search for you english literature.
So it's proof by assertion, then?
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I don't get your point, what do you want me to prove?
Re: Top Tier publishing at its finest (Score:5, Insightful)
Who marked this insightful?
The link is to a study that compared acupuncture to sham acupuncture (needling anywhere) to conventional therapy and found that both acupuncture and sham acupuncture had the same effect.
The GP specifically asked for evidence that acupuncture works better than random needling.
Were you too busy seeing what you wanted to see to actually read either the GP or the link you think disproves them?
Needling has been shown to help some chronic pain, most probably through release of endorphins and similar. That's a far cry from acupuncture's claims of meridians or acupuncture points and acupuncture's claims to be able to treat a range of other ailments.
Medicine not Science (Score:3, Interesting)
Needling has been shown to help some chronic pain, most probably through release of endorphins and similar.
Isn't this the point though? Medicine is all about curing and treating medical conditions. Whether or not it is wrapped up in some pseudo-scientific BS if the process actually works and relieves a medical condition without causing harm then surely it is good medicine even though it may be appalling science.
Re:Medicine not Science (Score:3)
Isn't this the point though? Medicine is all about curing and treating medical conditions. Whether or not it is wrapped up in some pseudo-scientific BS if the process actually works and relieves a medical condition without causing harm then surely it is good medicine even though it may be appalling science.
The placebo effect is well known about and remarkably powerful. Is it good medicine to give people sugar pills, since that is surprisingly effective?
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Two points to address:
That acupuncture works better than placebo: This is not the case. You have to look at more than a single study. At a bare minimum, studies have to be replicated and then aggregates taken from several replicated studies have to be weighed and analysed in meta-studies before coming to tentative conclusion. Also, it's necessary to establish durations and intensities of treatment, side effects, risks, etc., in order for doctors to calculate/estimate whether it's going to be worthwhile for
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Yes, sugar pills would be a decent first round of treatment, except for they'd stop working if everybody knew that was what was happening.
You'd think so but that's not actually true. Even when patients know that they're taking a placebo, their bodies usually produce the expected physiological responses as if it were the treatment. The effect is stronger when applied in a medical clinic, by people who look and sound like doctors, and the treatment is very expensive. Additionally, if the placebo is a pill, red placebos are more effective than blue placebos, unless you're Italian, in which case blue placebos are more effective. The placebo effec
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WTF is wrong with us as a species.
Fun fact: placebos are more effective when the patient thinks they're more expensive.
In conclusion, I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. And yet, I merrily chow down on expensive placebos whe nI have a cold because they make me feel better.
And science supports that :)
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any mindfulness about what one eats will lead to a healthier person
That's true up to a point. The placebo effect isn't magical and it can't do anything that isn't medically possible, e.g. making consumed calories disappear, thereby not making you gain weight, or compensating for unbalanced diets where there are insufficient nutrients, e.g. not enough micro-nutrients in some commercial weight-loss diets. Placebos only trigger physiological responses that our bodies have evolved to give.
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Yes and no.
Some help is better than no help.
But - if you don't understand or misunderstand the actual process of the healing, you won't have much success in improving it, or estimating its side effects, or understanding where it will and where it won't work.
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However, acupuncture is in a slightly different category in that it has been shown to relieve pain.
Acupuncture hasn't been shown to relieve pain. Random needling has been shown to relieve pain. You can do random needling without doing acupuncture.
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However, acupuncture is in a slightly different category in that it has been shown to relieve pain. That does not mean that it isn't still rife with quackery - the only thing that has been shown to my knowledge is pain relief - but it does suggest that there is some mechanism there which we do not yet fully understand.
The mechanism is fairly well understood, it's a placebo effect. Pain is one of those few things that really is all in your head, and therefore one of the few things that's probably treatable with snake oil and quackery (given that the treatment of the underlying causes of the pain aren't being ignored, assuming they actually are treatable).
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both acupuncture and sham acupuncture had the same effect.
It's a pity that both cost nearly the same, else I might have been able to save some money with that information.
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If you have disproven acupuncture, I would like to have some links, idiot.
It's not been disproven, it's just never been proven.
Until you prove it works, it is, by default, unproven.
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The second Emperor of China made acupuncture experiments on over 10,000 POWs.
About half or even a full dozen of my friends are MDs/PhDs in medicine and practice acupuncture.
I rather believe them than a random /. poster who never ever bothered to read anything about the topic.
About half the planet uses acupuncture as a traditional medicine. On top of that: in Europe we have about 500M inhabitants. And every health insurance pays for acupuncture treatment.
So: I go with the mass ... but you are right, just bec
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The second Emperor of China made acupuncture experiments on over 10,000 POWs
Link please? No? Proof by assertion
About half or even a full dozen of my friends are MDs/PhDs in medicine and practice acupuncture
Appeal to authority with just a hint of appeal to popularity.
I rather believe them than a random /. poster
You're not good with irony, are you.
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Perhaps you like to look up what 'appeal to authority' actually means: https://www.logicallyfallaciou... [logicallyfallacious.com]
For starters: if I recitate from a known authority about a certain subject, then it obviously can't be an appeal to authority.
More explicitley: a MD practicing acupuncture obviously knows more about it than you do. Good luck in refuting this simple statement.
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Spent too much time posting links to legit scientific papers on possible effects of acupuncture here in the past
Really? If you logged in, I might be able to verify that, otherwise it's just you saying so.
I finally realized that many of the authors had gasp Chinese names and that's gonna be a deal breaker when the 'merican "engineers" here start shrieking DOUBLE BLIND TEST
Thinly veiled implication that a request for a study that meets the standards of other forms of medicine is based on some kind of racism.
google acupuncture nitric oxide
How about you make a point and then provide proof or links to back it up. What you've delivered so far is a complain that you've provided information in the past but that it's been ignored or denied because of racism. I'm prepared to accept that this might be the case, but the burde
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Yup. Pity it has nothing to do with 'nitric oxide' which was what the GP (you?) told people to look for.
Did you read the result? No difference between acupuncture and sham where here the sham was just needling anywhere that wasn't an 'acupuncture point'.
So the study shows that needling people works. Other studies that have tested with endorphin inhibitors [nih.gov] have shown a reduced effect, so the primary mechanism for the analgesic effect of acupuncture is likely to be the release of same.
Needling anywhere reduce
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Acupuncture is not based on 'points' on meridians. That is only a training and memorization tool. (Invented by a frensh doctor 200 years ago) Points and meridians are related or overlapping, but different concepts.
The areas are most often as big as the size of the palm of patient.
Also there are plenty of 'points' that have the same effect.
If layman do a 'double blind' study it is most likely that both needles are at the wrong point :)
Science vs acupuncture (Score:3)
Acupuncture is not based on 'points' on meridians.
Acupuncture is pretty much not based on anything at all. Certainly not based on scientific evidence. The evidence [nih.gov] regarding its efficacy is thin and it clearly is being used to "treat" far too many conditions for which there is no evidence that it has any effect. There appears to be some evidence that it can help certain pain conditions (though this is still being evaluated) but the mechanism of action is unclear and the clinical practice guidelines are inconsistent to put it mildly. The NIH has been re
Re: (Score:2)
Actually there are no modern double blind studies about acupuncture.
I really wonder why intelligent people like you claim that. Hint: you can not double blind (neither the applyer of the needle nor the receiver know where he needle is placed) manual treat a human body.
Double blind studies only work with medicals etc. where neither the guy handing out the stuff nor the receiver know if they are getting the real stuff or not.
Half the planet is using acupuncture and related medical treatment like Shiatsu and T
Evidence based medicine (Score:2)
I really wonder why intelligent people like you claim that. Hint: you can not double blind (neither the applyer of the needle nor the receiver know where he needle is placed) manual treat a human body.
Not true at all. You can simulate the needle placement with other stimulus. An electric shock can feel like a needle prick as long as the patient cannot see it. And there have been studies [nih.gov] about the effectiveness of double blinding for acupuncture specifically.
You want to tell me that you have a study in the US that proves that 4 billion people outside of the USA are treated wrong
First off there are NOT 4 billion people receiving acupuncture so lets dispense with that nonsense right away. Acupuncture is used by a small percentage of the population - most of whom are inclined towards "alternative medicine" which for the mos
Re: (Score:2)
An electric shock can feel like a needle prick as long as the patient cannot see it.
Which has the same effect as a needle.
First off there are NOT 4 billion people receiving acupuncture so lets dispense with that nonsense right away. Acupuncture is used by a small percentage of the population .thailand is close to 100million .... should Ii continue?
China has about 2 billion inhabitants, India is now over a billion,
most of whom are inclined towards "alternative medicine"
That is nonsense and the wrong term.
Re: (Score:2)
Which is consistent with the placebo effect, FWIW. However, acupuncture is done by putting needles into significant points. For a double-blind study, you teach someone how to insert needles, acupuncture-style, without knowing more about it. You tell that person to insert needles at specific points. Some of these are traditional acupuncture points for the desired effect and some aren't. That eliminates cues to the patient. The blind scoring of results is normal.
Re: (Score:2)
Either when Emacs won Best Editor award, or when Duke Nukem revision finally came out.