Study Finds Yoga Works As Well As Physical Therapy For Back Pain (time.com) 172
An anonymous reader quotes a report from TIME: Another study is touting the benefits of yoga -- this time, for people with back problems. The new research put yoga head-to-head against physical therapy and found the two were equally good at restoring function and reducing the need for pain medication over time. In the new study, published in Annals of Internal Medicine, a group of 320 people did 12 weeks of yoga or physical therapy, or they simply received a book and newsletters about coping with back pain. People in the active treatment groups reported that their pain was less intense than it was at the start of the study and that they were able to physically move more. Some were also able to reduce, or even stop, their pain medications. Those improvements stuck around for a full year after the study was over. This research is unique because the people in the study were racially diverse, and most were from low-income families. Many had pre-existing medical conditions. That's important, say the researchers, because chronic back pain -- which affects about 10% of U.S. adults -- has a greater impact on minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status.
same difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:same difference (Score:4, Interesting)
Isn't yoga physical therapy? Except for the therapist / yoga guru, they seem the same.
Pretty much. My wife has a back injury and tried both yoga and physical therapy. The yoga was stretching and exercises. The physical therapy was stretching and exercises. The only difference was that PT cost money, while she could learn yoga for free from Youtube videos.
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And likewise you can get many physical therapy exercises for free online too. But often a bit of personalization to your problem and feedback on your form can go a long way to making sure you learn the right way of doing things and lower risk of injuring yourself in the long run. In that case, physical therapy is free for many insurance programs while yoga is not.
Re:same difference (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between physical therapy and yoga is not the exercises. It's that a physical therapist with some kind of medical qualification evaluates your needs and makes recommendations. For many people those recommendations will just be "do yoga", but if the pain is the result of an injury it might be useful to know what exercises are safe and won't make it worse.
Obviously up to you if you think paying for that advice is worth it. I've found that just experimenting carefully by myself had better results.
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Perhaps where you're from... most people I know who have gone to physiotherapy have ended up in physio sessions three times a week doing various stretching and exercise.
Re:same difference (Score:4, Interesting)
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I've had a persistent IT band problem for about 15 years from doing a lot of cycling and not noticing that my saddle was slightly askew for a while. To this day, if my bike is set up incorrectly, I'll end up with a pain so intense that I absolutely can't move my leg while I'm on the bike, and it will even make walking difficult later.
I went to physio for it. There were stretches and TENS therapy and massage with an obnoxious piece of metal (it was shaped like a large butterknife and was used to break down s
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In Germany many (most?) Yoga teachers are actually Physio Therapists.
That way their students can get the course costs partly or fully refunded by the health insurance.
Kicks Ass! (Score:2)
I've done Yoga twice. It kicked by ass both times.
Think of it as low level gymnastics. I mean the kind where you get on those rings and slowly go from vertical to horizontal o vertical again.
Crazy shit.
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What you need to remember is that there are loads of schools of yoga, and many of them weren't designed to improve your body. Some of them don't even directly address the body.
But even if you restrict the domain to hatha yoga, which is what you are contemplating, it includes things like standing on one leg for hours with your fingers pressed against your palm. This intentionally causes pain, and is not designed to improve your body in any way (though I guess it might improve your balance).
So you need to s
What's the difference (Score:2, Insightful)
Use whatever works best. I once got a printout of lower back exercises from my doctor and it worked better than anything else. No yoga, no PT, just follow the instructions and I felt much better. You have to do it consistently, so that may be why some people find yoga better than PT.
Physical therapy and yoga are the same thing (Score:2)
Physical therapy and yoga are very similar. Shockingly enough!!!
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One has stretchy bands, inflatable balls, and machines. The other has pants that should require a license to wear.
Not surprised at all (Score:4, Informative)
Since when I went to Kaiser Permanente 20 years ago for back pain, they gave me a bunch of exercises with my physical therapy. A few years ago I was reading a book about yoga and all the exercises they gave me were yoga moves. So, basically the physical therapy is yoga.
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If you want to claim that "all self-professed Yogis are frauds" you are asserting a lie. If you said many, or possibly even most, you'd have a good point. There is no standardization of what is a yoga teacher, and there's can't be, as yoga has so many different schools. OTOH, in many places all you have to do is claim to be a yoga teacher...which makes it an easy place for con-artists to work.
It's basically like claiming that "all preachers are frauds". It's certainly true that many are, but it's also t
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Your definition of fraud is clearly non-standard, which makes your comment difficult to understand. Based on your usage (in the above post) it appears to be approx. "People who assert something I don't accept".
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Fraud is normally defined as deliberate deceit. If you believe in something, and teach it, you're not a fraud. You may be very seriously wrong, and your teachings may be doing great harm, but you're not a fraud.
The few teachers I know personally believe what they say, although they acknowledge that some of it sounds dubious to your average Westerner. Unless you've actually investigated their claims, or at least can find negative results from serious investigation, you're calling them frauds for saying
No shit. (Score:5, Informative)
This sounds like something straight from the mouth of Captain Obvious.
Truth be told, Yoga is about as "full body workout" as it gets.
If you think Yoga is just some spiritual foo-foo wah-wah shit and all the health benefits are placebo, you are soooo wrong. Yes, the fortune-cookie wisdoms Yoga instructors dish out at the end of a workout when everybody is chilling and meditating can be flat-out cringe-worthy and inscence and sitar music (or whatever that string-instrument is called) isn't everybody's thing, but the 90 minutes that went before that are enough to put any regular iron-pumper or cross-fit person into gasp and sweat mode. Taking the positions slowly and elegantly ("Ansanas" in Yogaspeak) and holding them is really hard and requires a lot of strength and coordination and at times goes beyond pro level gymnastics.
Oh, and the countless chicks that do it are often pretty hot. And I mean that in more ways than one. :-) ... Which reminds me that I actually just had an excessive flirt (and some very nice dances) with a cute Yoga instructor this weekend ...
So, yes, there are a lot of benefits to doing Yoga, including those of regular physical health, strength and flexibility at the same time. That Yoga is about as good as it gets when treating muscular deficiencies in your back is something well established.
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Your post is bullshit because:
1) Muscles adapt to stress. You have to overload them more and more. It only takes a few months of doing bodyweight exercises before you really aren't going to build any more strength from them, just muscular endurance. Eventually you need progressively heavier weights if you want to get stronger.
You may have heard of this thing called leverage... which tends to increase the strength required by putting your body at a disadvantage...
Take push-ups, for example: incline push-ups (hands higher than feet), to horizontal push-ups, to decline push-ups (feet higher than hands), to hand-stand push-ups. You can throw ring-variations in there for extra difficulty, because of the stabilization required. Or you can go pseudo-planche push-ups, towards full planche push-ups, fingertips full planche push-ups...
and yet... (Score:2)
neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.
Re: and yet... (Score:3)
Or you could injure yourself further
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I think cyber-vandal was referring to weight training, which is dangerous if you don't do it right. (That's why I preferred the exercise machines in the gym to the free weights: it was a lot easier to use the machines properly, even if all they were doing was getting me to lift weights with various muscles).
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neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.
This. I'm generally a slob, but if I start getting back pains or other physical issues, I start with the barbells and squats and avoiding the elevator and within a couple of weeks, it's all fixed. If I was into it, I'd do it all the time, but I'm not.
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For back issues build core muscles. Most people with back issues have core muscles that need more exercise. Crunches etc also people really need to do daily stretching were they tighten and relax those core muscles.
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Says the guy who has no clue how the body works ...
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Tell that to people that are learning to walk again after being in a car accident or some other similarly traumatic incident. Some of the people that physiotherapists help are wheelchair bound before they get into therapy. Don't be an idiot.
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There are numerous branches of Yoga, and the branch everyone is referring to, Hatha, is specifically intended to prepare the body for meditation. Yes there is bending and stretching, but much more importantly the
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I started taking a meditation class at a place that teaches yoga, and I found that it made me a lot better at noticing things. It wasn't a physical change, but it reminded me of when I was younger and I'd need a new prescription and how the world looked when I got my new glasses. I'm also feeling a little calmer when things aren't going the way I want. So far, disregarding all philosophy, it's well worth my time and money.
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Access denied (Score:2)
Even if it cured cancer and I had it, my wife would likely demand to escort me to and from a yoga studio.
Good if customized to the patient (Score:4, Informative)
"The once-a-week yoga classes in the study were designed specifically for back-pain patients"
I'm compelled to stress the importance of this and of not doing exercises that lastingly increase pain. Many people with back pain who go to normal yoga classes end up being sore from pain instead of muscle soreness after since the programs are typically not customized to their needs/abilities.
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Good eye catching that. Surely some injuries require avoidance of certain stretches or exercises.
Some tips for somebody with back pain reading this: plain old walking and wearing non-tight pants helps a lot with back pain. Comfortable stretching and isometric exercises are good. As you get less pain and more strength or endurance, I would recommend progressing to longer workouts or more activity. But use common sense and don't overdo anything that causes more pain to appear the next day.
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I have a suggestion (Score:4, Interesting)
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They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.
Breathing correctly is the most important part of yoga, and the reasons for this are well-known to the medical community. You could research the topic, or just do it and see for yourself why it's obviously true.
Movement is actually very complicated. Moving say, just your arm from point a to point b in a given position, isn't simple at all. We're not robots. There's almost an infinite number of internal variations available to any given movement, and some of that variation is even linked to your autonomic
Hatha Yoga (Score:2)
What is called "Yoga" in the US is in fact "Hatha Yoga", as mentioned onto the wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Hatha Yoga's goal is to increase longevity and improve health, so it's no surprise that it works for back pain.
Personally, I practice yoga, but not hatha yoga, so it always bothers me when these two are mixed up.
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There are probably hundreds of Yoga "Styles".
Just find one that interests you most.
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I prefer martial arts an tantra over yoga :) ...
I sit already 8-10h behind a screen when I'm working
Interesting (Score:2)
The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion not (Score:3)
All of this sounds about right.
In fact, if you take a hindu to a physical therapy program and ask him what he just did, he'll say 'yoga'. If you take a physiotherapist to a yoga session and ask her what she just did, she'll say 'physical therapy' (assuming you avoid the weird stoner-stuff about energy and one-with-the-universe cringe that comes after). I've been doing physical therapy for quite a while now (back problems), and I can't see any difference between physical therapy, stretching, and yoga. They all revolve around moderate exertion of muscle groups that we don't normally exercise in our day-to-day lives.
Of course, there is also the usual virtue signalling bullshit included here.
That's important, say the researchers, because chronic back pain -- which affects about 10% of U.S. adults -- has a greater impact on minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status.
I would like to see the study that concludes that my life is 'more' fine with backpain than anyone else's. Is it less important to be able to play with your kids if you aren't the appropriate minority? Do you not benefit from long walks if you are rich? Are active hobbies only relevant if they prevent you from a life of crime?
If there isn't a study on this, then these researchers are regurgitating intellectually dishonest narratives (something which is usually consigned to the social "sciences"). I really hope this isn't part of a trend, since internal medicine is a field that must be harshly structured around logical thought and cold hard data.
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If you're rich you won't have to stack shelves at walmart with a bad back.
And how are they going to treat back pain... (Score:2)
...caused by yoga lessons ?
I can vouch for this. (Score:2)
After suffering from lower back pain and sciatica for quite some time and even having a nerve block treatment. I've done yoga practice with my partner (recently qualified yoga teacher) she tailored sessions to work on my lower back . Now I have much better posture and body awareness, my back pain has not returned since. I cannot recommend yoga highly enough. My back issues were probably caused by my job Software Engineer where I sit on my arse all day tapping away at a keyboard!
It's all about the asshole (Score:2)
Obligatory GTAV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ-wwqOhb3U
Not surprising.. (Score:2)
Can we get insurance to pay for it? (Score:2)
Given the high price of good yoga classes, can we get insurance to pay for it. How about time-off 3x/week to goto yoga class?
Versus... getting higher monetary payments for "physical therapy" &
time-off to go to doctors' visits and therapy?
Which is easier for the employee?
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Depends on the employee, employer, and insurance plan, I guess. The yoga might be cheaper than the deductible for physical therapy, for example.
I also have to go through medical channels for physical therapy. I can sign up for a yoga class at a place three blocks from my home without justifying anything and without paying all that much.
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uh maybe you should move out of vatican.
or expose your local bishop as anti-christian hate mongerer that he is. it's not hard to do really.
of course it's not easy if the people who listen to him are hatemongerer dolts as well. still, you could convince a few of them that the bishop is an asshat.
or you know, you could start a choga gym. same thing, different name. actually if your locale is stupid enough to fall for something that stupid a bishop says they might fall for that.
because seriously, you don't n
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yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion.
Hindus have very little interest in spreading their religion to the Western World. Hinduism is tightly bound to Indian culture, and doesn't fit well at all into other cultures. Christianity and Islam are unusual in being universal religions that can apply to all of humanity. Most religions are tribal, like Hinduism and Judaism, and adherents make little or no effort to proselytize to other ethnicities.
Yoga is not a threat to American civilization. You should go back to worrying about Sharia.
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The Hindu right in India begs to differ with you. The Hindu right have notions of grandeur which involve conquering neighboring countries and bringing them under a Hindu "rashtra" (kingdom). The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an Indian state and also the current PM is on record as calling for an Akhand Bharat (a greater nation which incorporates Pakistan, Bangladesh, parts of Afghanistan etc).
http://indianexpress.com/artic... [indianexpress.com]
Th
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Correct: The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an **Hindu** state
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used (Score:5, Informative)
> Some dumb Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil.
FTFY.
Some dumb Christians also believe that "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," (1 Cor 11:14). Apparently these retards haver never seen a male horse with a long mane, nor a male lion.
The only ones saying Yoga is "evil" are idiots.
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That bible quote most likely is a fake introduced later anyway (I mean: it likely was never in a Corinthian letter, they are written by Petrus, right?)
In ancient times (and the bible is full with references to that) most men weared long hair. As well in germanic cultures as in middle eastern cultures. In some cultures it was believed that the strength of a man is in his hair.
The habit to shave the head of convicts, war collaborators, conscripted soldiers etc. comes from that "believe".
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Not precisely. Some generals required their troops to shave their beards and cut their hair to keep an opponent from grabbing them by the hair. This, of course, was certainly not widespread. Definitely not before the age of easily sharpened razors. But it happened. And it wasn't (in those cases) intended as a sign of shame.
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Alexander the Great was the first (known) to make that suggestion (cutting away the beard), but he did not enforce it.
Hair is not really relevant as it is below a helmet.
Razor sharp baldes we have since the stone ages, flint can be shaped into razors. Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, just not as durable.
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Any hair that can be grabbed is relevant. IIUC Belisarius did enforce it. And bronze blades can't be kept sharp. Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.
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Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, thy only get dull quicker and need resharpening more often.
Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.
Yeah, you can not really resharpen it.
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Not all yoga is religion, but there are types of yoga involving chants, mantras etc and invocation of deities. Those are definitely religious.
There are chants invoking Shiva etc. See the common yoga chants here:
https://www.yogajournal.com/yo... [yogajournal.com]
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That gets tricky. Sometimes those chants are definitely religious, other times it would be more proper to call them philosophical. (In both cases indoctrination is fair.) But how do you rate them when the chants are in a foreign language (unintelligible to the chanter) and aren't translated?
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Why chat at all if it is supposed to be just exercise? Many of the mantras are invocations to Shiva, Ganesha etc. The deeper you go into yoga you get into things like Kundalini etc which is seen as a serpent kundalini resting in the base of the spine. If all of that isn't spooky and religious, what is?
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It honestly depends on the instructor if it is religious or not. I would love to find one that just ran us through the forms and focused on proper technique.
I haven't found one.
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If you are thinking of an instructor that didn't believe that yoga included philosophical or spiritual meaning, I doubt he would be a valid instructor in yoga. But there are so many different schools that I could be wrong.
The root of the word yoga means union, and the idea was the union of the practitioner with the universe (in some sense...the schools differ widely about in what sense).
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todayschristianwoman.com [todayschristianwoman.com]
telegraph.co.uk [telegraph.co.uk]
A little futher down is item by a Christian criticising the first articlechristianitytoday.com [christianitytoday.com], so yoga isn't universally condemned by Christians.
Addressing your precise point, searching on yoga+evil gives this 2011 news report [dailymail.co.uk] (I use the term loosely - it's from the English Daily Mail):
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Yoga is a great workout, but in a Yoga class there is a pretty good chance you'll find a few folks that believe in crystal energy healing and life force energy.
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'Life force energy', Chi in China, Ki in Japan, is an important concept in eastern medicine, philosophy and martial arts.
For those who practice it, there is no need for 'believe'. We simply feel it.
When I would do three techniques with you, I would do them first by putting my Ki at the wrong point, telling you the point. Then no Ki, then I put my Ki at the right point, telling you the point. The next three techniques I say nothing and you tell me what you feel. I guarantee you: you will feel exactly where I
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Same for you :D
Feeling my Ki does not make me happy, though. It is completely irrelevant.
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Of course it is relevant.
But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.
As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too. ;D
But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist
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Of course it is relevant. But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.
As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too. But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist ;D
Sorry, I am not religious. But I do respect those with religious beliefs, including vitalism. If people say they feel a god's presence, or life force energy, good for them. I try not to debate such things with those folks, so I'll stop here and wish you happiness.
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Would have been more interesting if you had tested it and told me you felt nothing :)
Because you would be the first then and I had a counterexample to the other people.
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The test criteria is pretty simple.
You do a Qi Gong or Tai Chi exercise and feel the flow of Ki.
No idea what else you need/want.
If you are to lazy or feel to incompetent to judge (for a good/suitable teaching video) I would even go and google you a youtube video.
However it is hard to believe that you have no friend, coworker, acquaintance or relative that ever did/still does Yoga, Tai Chi or Qi Gong, Shiatsu or a martial art in which Ki/Chi plays a role: Aikido, Kung Fu, Karate etc. Everyone doing such a "s
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On a thermal camera, you see thermal gradients produced by normal biological functions. Nothing more.
I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.
Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and s
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I did not insult you.
I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.
Yeah, you push weights. Or run. What has that to do with Ki/Chi?
I told you several times to look a video of a Tai Chi or Chi Gong practitioner.
You don't want. So you are unscientific.
Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and supernatural forces, that does not give them any legitimacy, but it does provide some people with a psychological 'fill in' for lack of scient
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I explained you in my last post in the last paragraph the scientific base. .
You did nothing of the sort. Maybe you just don't understand what constitutes a scientific explanation or evidence, its certainly not because some person teaches it, or because ancient societies named it. You've provided ZERO. I can find videos of people preaching religion all day, that doesn't mean their gods are real. Sho me a physical experiment with measurement and also a scientific explanation for results which doesn't breakdown in to 'we simply don't understand' at its fundamental level, because that
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I told you that there are scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras.
Perhaps you want to go back two posts ...
All that has nothing to do with the fact that you can do the experiments in minutes your self, but you refuse. So you are not scientific, but somehow scare.
As for making you happy, although you protest it must fill a psychological need otherwise you would not argue for it so much when you have
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... scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras..
So, in your words, there was nothing observed other that increased blood flow, which obviously is going to happen when one exercises and there is no 'inner energy'. Why don't you just call it increased blood flow instead of Ki?
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Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.
If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.
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Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.
If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.
You are the one the called it 'life force energy', then went about giving it some sort of context by talking about ancient civilizations beliefs. But blood flow is nothing of the sort. Don't blame me for the path you chose to walk, you posted that.....and your last sentence pretty much puts you where I thought you were.
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Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi.
And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.
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Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi. And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.
So, we are back where we started. If you are OK with that belief, then fine. Don't try to proselytize it to me with no scientific explanation. Praying is also a traditional healing method.
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FWIW, it's one thing to feel the described sensation, and it's another to accept the explanation for what causes the sensation. I often have a great deal of problem with accepting the explanation. But it could be that the translator didn't properly understand the original work.
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I guess no one really knows where the sensation comes from.
For doing martial arts or health exercises it is not really important anyway.
Bottom line Ki/Chi is an umbrella term. E.g. when in martial arts someone says "concentrate your Ki here" you simply can translate it to "put your focus there".
On the other hand it overlaps with "body exercises" that involve breathing and fluid movements. Here you easy get a "feeling for Ki" or life energy. But for what purpose? Well, a reasonable purpose is if you are free
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Maybe you should learn to read (Score:2)
First link:
"The use of yoga as a spiritual path is highly problematic."
Maybe you need to spend a little time at the dictionary if you equate "highly problematic as a spiritual path" (they had no problems with the physical effects) to raw baby-killing evil.
The second link is basically trolling also. I didn't bother to read the rest because why bother and it's apparent from the titles they have the same distance from "evil".
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Yoga is not just a harmless physical exercise, it opens the door to demonic control. On which side do you ultimately want to stand? The devil’s or Christ’s? The consequences are more serious than you might realise.
I'd say in terms of "trolling" this is pretty weak "trolling". There are references out there to Christians who have varying degrees of problems with it. It's certainly not made up and there is certainly evidence from many sources that some Christians have problems with it. Many don't, of course. But it sure isn't "trolling", which is defined as "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone
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I treat everyone who calls for bans of rival religions as nutcases. It's simpler that way, and I haven't noticed a loss of usefulness in my judgment.
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And then, you are going to tell me that a sample of 320 (1 ppm in respect to the American population) is representative while such pathologies affect 10% of the population...
I suppose you can't read, because the article didn't use the sample to determine what effects 10% of the population. I suppose you can't think either, because people of lower socioeconomic status are more likely to have jobs that require physical labor or strain, which is kind of obvious.
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If you are going to try to insult the intelligence of people, then you should know the difference between "effects" and "affects".
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I'd personally say Yoga in the pretentious "spiritual" manner it is taught is a waste of time while incorporating only certain exercises from it and combining them with PT cores without wasting 15 minutes to do an exercise "spiritually" is the best choice without wasting one's time.
If posing and stretching helps somebody focus, then what's wrong with incorporating it as a spiritual activity? Many activities can have a spiritual component if they help you get centered. Or maybe you consider all "spiritual" activities a waste of time.
Personally, when I've participated in yoga classes I found them relaxing and thought it felt good. PT I thought was a pain in the neck (even though there was some overlap), but it got me walking again. In my case, unlike apparently with back pain, yoga wasn
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Agreed. I was going to post that I knew this back in the day from Hank Hill.