US Life Expectancy Can Vary By 20 Years Depending On Where You Live (npr.org) 292
After analyzing records from every U.S. county between 1980 and 2014, Christopher Murray, head of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, and his team found that life expectancy can vary by more than 20 years from county to county. "In counties with the longest lifespans, people tended to live about 87 years, while people in places with the shortest lifespans typically made it only about 67," reports NPR. From the report: The discrepancy is equivalent to the difference between the low-income parts of the developing world and countries with high incomes, Murray notes. For example, it's about the same gap as the difference between people living in Japan, which is among countries with the longest lifespans, and India, which has one of the shortest, Murray says. The U.S. counties with the longest life expectancy are places like Marin County, Calif., and Summit County, Colo. -- communities that are well-off and more highly educated. Counties with the shortest life expectancy tend to have communities that are poorer and less educated. The lowest is in Oglala Lakota County, S.D., which includes the Pine Ridge Native American reservation. Many of the other counties with the lowest life expectancy are clustered along the lower Mississippi River Valley as well as parts of West Virginia and Kentucky, according to the analysis. There's no sign of the gap closing. In fact, it's appears to be widening. Between 1980 and 2014, the gap between the highest and lowest lifespans increased by about two years. The reasons for the gap are complicated. But it looks like the counties with the lowest lifespans haven't made much progress fighting significant health problems such as smoking and obesity. The study has been published in the journal JAMA Internal Medicine.
Well relief is at hand for you (Score:5, Funny)
Supplemental information and visualizations (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sure the new republican health care plan will provide more comprehensive coverage at much lower costs thus solving americas poor living in third world conditions. /s
For those who want a good visualization, here is the US map of the study results [jamanetwork.com],
and here's the study [jamanetwork.com], click on the "figures and tables" link in the overly complex mishmash of a web page for visualizations and caption explanations.
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It's amazing how well the map of the worst life expectancy matches the map of places that repeatedly elect republicans.
It's almost like republican policy on how you treat people of low socio-ecenomic status, and how you deal with health care has a significant impact on areas of the US looking more like the 3rd world than the 1st.
Re: Well relief is at hand for you (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah I don't want to keep a fat chain smoker alive for a few extra years. Thank you Trump!
Look here [npr.org] the largest cluster of lagging lifespan is neatly outlined by the Bible Belt. Further if you read the actual journal abstract [jamanetwork.com] you would find
Question
Are inequalities in life expectancy among counties in the United States growing or diminishing, and what factors can explain differences in life expectancy among counties?
Findings
In this population-based analysis, inequalities in life expectancy among counties are large and growing, and much of the variation in life expectancy can be explained by differences in socioeconomic and race/ethnicity factors, behavioral and metabolic risk factors, and health care factors.
Meaning
Policy action targeting socioeconomic factors and behavioral and metabolic risk factors may help reverse the trend of increasing disparities in life expectancy in the United States.
Thus the actual journal describes it as a variety of causes, not smoking and drinking. The slashdot summary is moronic clickbait - dare I say "fake news" - by insunuating that these people deserve to die solely because of their bad choices. But don't let me spoil the hackneyed rebublican narrative.
Re: Well relief is at hand for you (Score:5, Insightful)
... dare I say "fake news" ...
Well, you just did, didn't you? However, since the howler-monkeys of the alt-right (or -wrong, perhaps?) yell that at every turn of the road, it has become little more than another swear word, so if you want to contribute genuinely to an intelligent discussion (and I think you do), another term might help your argument being taken serious.
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And you're bringing what to the table with your partisan-baiting rant? Certainly not a serious "argument."
In this case, no arguments, since I agreed with the op, but I thought it was worth adding my comment to the use of 'fake news', since this has already become a nonsense term.
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Those were blue states for 50 years, dumbass. It took them that long to realize that poor people voting for democrats stayed poor. 10 years ago, you could put a dead dog on the ballot with a (D) next to it and it would have won the election. And in return, the democ acts kept us poor so we'd keep voting democrat. Fuck that.
Hi, Kansas is waving at you.
Re: Well relief is at hand for you (Score:5, Insightful)
Well you watched Obama "fix" it and nothing changed for these poor people.
I'd say all we proved is that government is incapable of fixing anything.
I halfway agree in that I think the ACA did not do enough. Roughly 20 million people gained medical coverage [urban.org] of some kind. Given that a significant part of this study revealed healthcare as a contributing factor, I wouldn't be suprised if tens of thousands of lives were saved. The real problem is we need a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, where we would pay about half as much to insure everyone while getting superior medical outcomes. Even trump agrees. [washingtonpost.com]
Re: Well relief is at hand for you (Score:4, Interesting)
Well you watched Obama "fix" it and nothing changed for these poor people.
I'd say all we proved is that government is incapable of fixing anything.
I halfway agree in that I think the ACA did not do enough. Roughly 20 million people gained medical coverage [urban.org] of some kind. Given that a significant part of this study revealed healthcare as a contributing factor, I wouldn't be suprised if tens of thousands of lives were saved. The real problem is we need a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, where we would pay about half as much to insure everyone while getting superior medical outcomes. Even trump agrees. [washingtonpost.com]
This. The problem the ACA had wasn't Obama, the ACA ended up being almost nothing like what Obama wanted or proposed in the first place. The problem with the ACA is that the Republicans that controlled the house could not allow it to succeed. So it was sabotaged at every opportunity.
Re: Well relief is at hand for you (Score:5, Interesting)
The real problem is we need a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, where we would pay about half as much to insure everyone while getting superior medical outcomes.
Correction. Half as much to care for everyone, not insure everyone. The distinction is important.
The American tendency to conflate insurance with healthcare is the number one, number two, and number three reasons why the American healthcare system is so badly broken. Number one, when you buy insurance and not care, you are no longer the customer of the care. The insurance company is, since they're the one actually paying the care provider. This has knock-on effect number two that, as a buyer of insurance, you often have no idea what the price of the care is going to be until long after you've received it. Number three, insurance companies have a profit motive to prevent healthcare, since paying for healthcare is a cost for them, the very definition of a perverse incentive. They're incentivized to the tune of billions of dollars per year to see to it that as little healthcare happens as possible.
If Americans implement single-payer with insurance companies as an integral part of the process, the amount paid will go up, not down. And all of it will go to support a parasitic industry. The fact that "medical coding and billing" is an actual job for which you can get specialized training should be a hint that you're doing it wrong.
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Chewing gum.
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Two choices (Score:5, Insightful)
You can have progressive taxation and universal healthcare or increasing inequality and more illness, fear, death and guns. Your choice.
Re: Two choices (Score:2, Interesting)
You do know what happens then, right? Violent revolution, in which the rich selfish asshole are killed and eaten.
It is in the best interest of the rich to keep the masses fed and healthy.
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You do know what happens then, right? Violent revolution, in which the rich selfish asshole are killed and eaten.
It is in the best interest of the rich to keep the masses fed and healthy.
you forgot the third option, which is working pretty well for the ruling class right now: Keep them fat and religious. Single-issue voters always vote against their own best interests.
Re: Two choices (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Two choices (Score:5, Funny)
The poor people can deal with the crap.
If France 1789 or Russia 1917 are any kind of indicator, from time to time they actually do.
Re:"Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:5, Insightful)
Be sure not to compare US health to Europe, because your fairy tale about lowering rich people's taxes won't quite hold water, though.
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I don't know. What does Bernie Sanders have to do with anything? You said that the alternative to the US taxation system is Venezuela.
Do you have statistics for longevity — and differences in longevity — among Europeans? I'm listening...
Have you heard about this website called "Google"? It's great. You can type in questions such as "What is the life expectancy of people in European co
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You need to learn to surrender with more grace. But I'll accept this much... Good luck!
Fine if you want to play that. Then GOP USA=Sudan & Somalia. They have no government at all and anarchy, warlords, and pirates are the result. Therefore that is the alternative to big government if you want to go deep end with analogies.
Both countries are a libertarian paradise.
Re:"Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:4, Interesting)
Here [cia.gov].
Ignoring the countries that have special reasons for longer/shorter life spans, it would be better to live in Iceland or Switzerland than the US.
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Or Australia. Actually it would be better to live in every country which has universal healthcare than in America even if life expectancy is lower. Because what's better dying comfortable and happy at 70 or dying while working 2 jobs to pay your medical bills and trying not to lose your house in the process at 75.
Fuck the USA health system. The best worst healthcare in the world.
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Actually, the Chavez regimes policies amount to attempting to make Venezuela more like Germany, i.e. social democratic. In case you haven't heard, US political reporting is somewhat biased and poorly informed.
Not even close buddy. Germany favors free enterprise and is the most powerful and wealthiest country in Europe. Venezuala is more communistic and little non-subsidized enterprise has price ceilings.
Re: "Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:5, Informative)
Germany doesn't favour free enterprise as a randlicker would recognise it. They have commie things like laws against unfair dismissal and there's even worker representation on company boards. I'm not sure if you're allowed to work 60 hours a week with no extra pay even if you want to.
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EU working directives limit the working week to a maximum of 48 hours (although there are exemptions).
Re: "Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not sure if you're allowed to work 60 hours a week with no extra pay even if you want to.
You are not allow. The EU maximum is 48 hours per week on average over a certain period, typically 15-20 weeks. There are exclusions for certain jobs like military, live-in servants etc.
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The EU maximum is 48 hours per week on average over a certain period
You can waive your right to that in the UK, though you can also revoke it at any time with no more than 3 months notice and the company is not allowed to treat you worse because of it.
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As usual, the UK is weak on worker's rights. I dread to think what it will be like after Brexit.
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You can sign an opt-out waiver to exceed the 48 hour limit. Amazon does exactly this with its warehouse staff in the UK. Of course, they can't force you to sign it, but you'll likely find your job mysteriously disappears if you don't sign.
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I mean, I know you are a Republican and thus dimwitted and gullible, but even a Trumpanzee can at least use a keyboard. Maybe next time think before opening your mouth(other than perhaps to stuff opioids in it)
Re:"Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:5, Insightful)
"You had me disable AdBlock for this? It is not by Forbes â" they simply cite a survey by Commonwealth Fund â" an Illiberal organization currently headed by one Dr. Blumenthal, who has "chief health advisor to the Dukakis campaign" on his resume.
Seriously?"
Ad hominem is a logical fallacy for precisely this reason - because you don't like the fact that statistics show that developed European countries all do better than the US in terms of life expectancy you're instead attacking the person who did the study.
But that's not how statistics work - the numbers don't lie, take it from this guy, take it from any other, attacking this individual doesn't change the fact that life expectancy in Europe was higher.
I actually followed this thread because I was genuinely intrigued to see where you were going to take the life expectancy argument (because I was already aware it was higher in most European countries, and that you were hence on a losing bet by trying to make that argument). I'm disappointed to see that you've simply decided to deny reality though rather than accept the fact that you were wrong. That doesn't bode well for you as a human being.
What about the CIA?
https://www.cia.gov/library/pu... [cia.gov]
Or are they too liberal for you too?
You can't ask someone not to hate you when you're being willfully ignorant, because that highlights you as someone that isn't willing to learn and that's more interested in lying to themselves than having an adult conversation where things like facts actually matter.
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You're farting into the wind, but well said anyway (sorry, commented so can't mod you up).
Re:"Progressive" solution to inequality (Score:5, Informative)
LMGTFY [wikipedia.org]
(Wikipedia page entitled "List of countries by life expectancy")
The US is behind every country in Western Europe and neatly bracketed by Chile and Cuba.
El Presidente Chavez... (Score:3)
Do tell, what President Sanders would've done differently from El Presidente Chavez. I'm listening...
Do tell, what President Trump will do differently from Reichskanzler Hitler. I'm listening... See how stupid that sounded when you read it? That's how stupid your comment sounded to the rest of us.
Do you have statistics for longevity — and differences in longevity — among Europeans? I'm listening...
It's a about ten years in the UK:
http://www.acegeography.com/re... [acegeography.com]
Seems to be rather similar in Germany:
https://www.mpg.de/9324818/reg... [www.mpg.de]
I'll let you google the rest... it's not particularly complicated just search on the topic: regional variations in life expectancy <name of country>
Is it location, class, or race? (Score:5, Insightful)
Those three things are often correlated, so causation may be falsely determined.
I.E. theoretically it could be (but isn't) that genetically the natives are subject to major diseases that reduce life expectancy.
Or, (almost as unlikely), that area could be infectred by a nasty disease.
Or most likely, it is a matter of money and education, both of which has been systematically denied to the members of the lower class that predominate in that area.
Re:Is it location, class, or race? (Score:4, Insightful)
Question
Are inequalities in life expectancy among counties in the United States growing or diminishing, and what factors can explain differences in life expectancy among counties?
Findings
In this population-based analysis, inequalities in life expectancy among counties are large and growing, and much of the variation in life expectancy can be explained by differences in socioeconomic and race/ethnicity factors, behavioral and metabolic risk factors, and health care factors.
Meaning
Policy action targeting socioeconomic factors and behavioral and metabolic risk factors may help reverse the trend of increasing disparities in life expectancy in the United States.
RTFA (Score:4, Informative)
Socioeconomic and race/ethnicity factors, behavioral and metabolic risk factors, and health care factors explained 60%, 74%, and 27% of county-level variation in life expectancy, respectively. Combined, these factors explained 74% of this variation. Most of the association between socioeconomic and race/ethnicity factors and life expectancy was mediated through behavioral and metabolic risk factors.
It's right there in the Summary (Score:2)
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I.E. theoretically it could be (but isn't) that genetically the natives are subject to major diseases that reduce life expectancy.
Why do you dismiss this? This is exactly why Oglala Lakota Sioux are at the absolute bottom in life expectancy. About 75% of adults on the Pine Ridge Reservation are alcoholic, and 25% of children are born with fetal alcohol syndrome. More than half the people are diabetic. What could possibly explain that other than genetics? Europeans have been eating starchy grains for 10,000 years, and drinking booze for almost as long. The Sioux have only been exposed to these for about two centuries, which is not
Re:Is it location, class, or race? (Score:4, Insightful)
What could possibly explain that other than genetics?
Really? A hopeless life? Being forced into a miserable reservation? Stripped of human dignity?
Re:Is it location, class, or race? (Score:5, Interesting)
Really? A hopeless life? Being forced into a miserable reservation? Stripped of human dignity?
They are not "forced" to live on the reservation. They are US citizens and can live anywhere in the country. Those that leave the reservation tend to do far better than those who stay. One of my co-workers in San Jose is a Crow Indian. She abstains from drinking alcohol, and she tries to avoid sugar and starch as much as possible. She has relatives living on the Crow Reservation in Montana, and they have the same problems as Pine Ridge with alcoholism and diabetes, despite the Sioux and Crow having a very different historical relationship with the American government: the Crow were allies of the US in the wars against the Sioux and Cheyenne.
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Or, (almost as unlikely), that area could be infectred by a nasty disease.
Central Valley Fever [wikipedia.org]. It's a real thing.
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Well, unless the genetic makeup is changing, it is difficult to explain trends this way.
Life expectancy maps to political leanings (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Life expectancy maps to political leanings (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Life expectancy maps to political leanings (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a Republican but I do agree that progressives have not adequately addressed the problems these workers face. I don't think the Democrats wanted to admit that there are losers in the transition to clean energy other than big bad fossil fuel companies.
Nor do a I believe that Trump has any real solutions for the majority of blue color workers. In fact I see very little hope for that group of people, - not because of clean energy, immigration, or manufacturing leaving the states, but because automation will eliminate those kinds of jobs and lots of others.
We need a radically different approach that I haven't heard a single politician in the states talk seriously about.
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Nor do a I believe that Trump has any real solutions for the majority of blue color workers. In fact I see very little hope for that group of people, - not because of clean energy, immigration, or manufacturing leaving the states, but because automation will eliminate those kinds of jobs and lots of others.
The transportation/delivery industry is also heading full-steam into "humans need not apply" territory. It's frightening when you look up statistics on how many people those fields presently employ.
Problem is, it's pretty hard to win votes when you tell ol' Jim-Bob that his skills are totally worthless in the economy of the future.
Re:Life expectancy maps to political leanings (Score:5, Insightful)
This is true, however the added problem is that the alternative is lying to these people.
This is the underlying issue with right-wing populism: it's easy to score points and votes by telling people that somehow high-paying manufacturing jos are going to come back and everything is going to be okay but it doesn't make it any more true. However low-skilled/uneducated workers who're most affected by this also often lack the education to understand why this is so, making them the easiest segment of the population to deceive into voting against their own interests.
This is difficult to oppose bevause doing so means talking about realities of the global economy and that makes you an easy target for 'globalist elite' -type of attacks. There's an ongoing attempt in narrative across the entire west according to which there's one side fighting for domestic jobs and the other side is taking them away. Both ends of the left-right --spectrum have their own varieties of this narrative:
The left is making the point that in the name of free trade the right cares about nothing else than maximizing profits and is thus helping companies take jobs away via trade-agreements and so on.
The right is making the argument that the jobs are going because of high-taxation and leftist policies and to remain comptetitive the tax burden has to be cut so companies will bring jobs back.
The thing to realize is both of these arguments are missing the point: the jobs are not going to come back for the simple reason that the standard of living in the west has risen so high that unskilled manufacturing labor is massively expensive (and hence, inefficient) in the west compared to outsourcing and automation. The people who think that there's some magical fix with which american or european workers will suddenly become cost-efficient compared to someone in China making less than 10 dollars a day, or an automated production line with an even lower cost, are deluded.
The problem is jobs and employment have been at the core of politics and political debates for so long neither side can fess up and say we need to start to consider the rather unavoidable fact that full-employment in the 21st century does not seem like a reachable goal and we need to start talking about options to deal with that. But this inevitably means income-distribution policies like basic income, which if mentioned in the american landscape will brand you a communist and an 'enemy of free enterprise". This despite the fact that the current development of increasing automation and decreasing need for labor is itself a direct result of free enterprises and the market doing what the market does: favoring efficiency and cutting production costs.
So there exists this negative feedback-loop in which both sides are continuing to talk about jobs and bringing back jobs because that's the mantra that they know will appeal to the voters most negatively affected by current ongoing trends but that doesn't mean the proposed solutions are actually going to work, and thus the politicians and the voters in tandem keep digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole. Honest discussion is needed about the future modern automation means for us as a species. Currently the situation reminds me of a schizophrenic who at the same time wants cheap and powerful electronics and consumer goods and at the same time wants to be paid a lot for manufacturing said products. In other words our desires as consumers (cheap commodities and high pay) are in direct conflict with the current technological development that's pretty much unstoppable,
We've created the economy to answer to our material needs and desires as efficiently as possible, and now that that efficiency means taking ourselves off the production line and letting machines do most of the work we recoil, because production is valued so much t
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The thing to realize is both of these arguments are missing the point: the jobs are not going to come back for the simple reason that the standard of living in the west has risen so high that unskilled manufacturing labor is massively expensive (and hence, inefficient) in the west compared to outsourcing and automation. The people who think that there's some magical fix with which american or european workers will suddenly become cost-efficient compared to someone in China making less than 10 dollars a day, or an automated production line with an even lower cost, are deluded.
Which is exactly why we might have to acknowledge and accept what is good for the world isn't necessarily good for the country and make a choice. Yes in pure economic terms free trade might be more efficient, but the local wealth gap effects it create are undesirable. Maybe we should reject free trade on the grounds these are unacceptable to our democracy and return to a protectionist/mercantilist model.
That leaves the AI/Automation problem where capital plays a larger and larger role in production as com
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The people who think that there's some magical fix with which american or european workers will suddenly become cost-efficient compared to someone in China making less than 10 dollars a day, or an automated production line with an even lower cost, are deluded.
There is a "magical" (read: effective) fix which absolutely no one is talking about instituting: tariffs on goods made with slave labor (whether effective or literal) which makes it unprofitable to enslave workers. Right now, our trade policies make slavery in other countries very profitable.
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Except for the problem of perspective, sure. A welder in China making $2/hr does not feel like a slave.
That's irrelevant; what you do is you calculate what it would cost to give that worker the same standard of living that you give to your own population, and then apply a tariff which accounts for the difference, then spend the money on social services. The math is nontrivial, but you don't actually have to be that precise, because the point isn't to be precise but to account for the impact and disincentivize taking advantage of one's own populace.
None of this is going to happen with our current government,
Economic change will overtake your vision (Score:3)
The advent of learning systems – very smart, but not conscious – into manufacturing and service automation will (and is beginning to already) move the bar so far, so fast, that a paradigm shift in what "the working
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Wait, telling someone what they want to hear no matter how insane is now "adequately addressing a problem"?
Wow, times sure are a-changing.
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Then please elaborate how telling miners that their obsolete mining operation will be viable again when there is a higher chance that Somalia wins the next ice hockey world championships is not "telling someone what they want to hear, no matter how insane".
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Germany started to have all these problems in the late 1980ies when mining and steelmaking in the Ruhr area crashed. That is when the North Rhine - Westphalia state government created a lot of subway projects so the miners could still have related jobs. The structural change still hurt a lot and NRW - that used to be one of the richest German states - is nowadays worse off than the former East German states which were rebuilt with the solidarity tax. I am originally from East Germany, but shortly after the
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Trickle down economics is just another name for feudalism.
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Installing solar PV is something any moderately intelligent person can learn on the job. Most of it is basically construction work. Given time they could go to school and get the necessary skills to qualify as an electrician and do that part too.
It's not zero effort and maybe the pay, at least at first, isn't the same as their old union job, but it's better than being unemployed and has a future of growth and security.
This is how it's been for over a century. New technology and the inevitable rise of other
come now (Score:2)
Avatar was fiction, you know.
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At best progressives will lecture them about how their jobs aren't coming back, they should learn to code, go to university, and move to the rich enclaves on the coasts.
A) It's not "progressives" that said their jobs weren't coming back, it's the industry leaders.
B) Anyone who says, "you should learn to code" to an adult doesn't have a fucking clue because programmers know it's not for everyone and they rather not have more competition.
C) More people are finally realizing that universal basic income is where we need to go to help everyone out in this time of transition.
conservatives figure out that it's better to pretend to listen, rather than to lecture those with less money, worse jobs and lower life expectancy on how they are all privileged transphobic racists and deserve their lot because of it.
I would have thought the push to keep the ACA around would have made it clear that "progressives" want ev
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:ACA was not designed to help poor people (Score:4, Interesting)
For those that could afford the premiums, the ACA became medical disaster insurance.
Really, insurance should be disaster-proofing, not pre-payment for common events. To use a car analogy, it makes sense to insure your car against collisions, but not to try to use your insurance to cover oil changes.
I'm not saying that healthcare insurance shouldn't cover preventative care, but rather that insurance isn't the right way to structure health care payments.
Re:Life expectancy maps to political leanings (Score:4, Insightful)
Something with as many subgroupings as life expectancy is going to be rife with Simpson's Paradox [wikipedia.org], so probably best not to read too much causality into these correlations.
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More likely, they are being lectured on getting a healthier living style and avoiding guns. Neither of these seems well received.
Something doesn't seem right (Score:3)
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Something doesn't seem right here. I live in Summit County, CO for 7 years and no one who lives in Summit County is actually from Summit County, or really even Colorado. Furthermore, even fewer are even year round residents. There's almost no one over the 65 there, the vast majority of the population are younger to early middle age ski bums. The same goes for Eagle County and to some degree Pitkin. Something about the ski bum population is skewing those results.
Of course not, they all died.
Oglala Lakota Nation (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a native (heck, my dad wasn't even born in this country), but I feel deeply for our fellow men & women on the res. The USA forced them to live there, forced them into the ghetto -- and now they're too impoverished to ever leave. There's no work, no hope -- the res is the most depressing place imaginable. The lifespan information should be used as an indicator of how badly communities need help.
Re:Oglala Lakota Nation (Score:5, Interesting)
They receive enough allowance from the government to stay alive -- and that's it.
Sounds like a good basic income experiment right there.
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Sounds like a good basic income experiment right there.
Well, I can't speak for any other tribes, but my locals have been fucked over by poor governance. The members themselves would be okay (their spending habits are not so poor, individually) but letting some middleman who is sometimes corrupt control the disbursements doesn't work. The casino was deliberately mismanaged for embezzlement and they actually removed people from the tribe so that they wouldn't have to give them any money. Most of those people have since been reinstated.
There was a time when the tr
Re:Oglala Lakota Nation (Score:5, Interesting)
They receive enough allowance from the government to stay alive -- and that's it.
Sounds like a good basic income experiment right there.
No, it doesn't. The missing part is that they can't get a job to increase their income. Basic income is created to keep you afloat and there needs to be enough education included in the package to get you a job if you want the slightest bit of luxuries.
They will never be able to afford any useful education in the current and coming system. That's not a basic income problem, but a you need to have at least that much money to get enough education to perform a job.
What you are failing to take into account here is within the next 10 - 20 years, basic income WILL be a humans only source of income. As automation and AI continue to develop and decimate the concept of human employment, there will be no "job" for a human to go off and do. This will also tend to highlight the point of obtaining higher education, as in there will be no point.
You can attempt to dismiss this as wild speculation, and assume we're 1,000 years away from that actually happening, but the reality is it's going to happen much faster than you ever think, because Greed directly benefits from these advancements.
If there's one thing we know by now, Greed is fucking relentless.
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They are US citizens and they can leave anytime. Furthermore, poverty is not a barrier to picking up and leaving. What's actually going on is that people with initiative and skills do leave the reservations and join mainstream society. That leaves behind the people who are incapable of leaving because they lack the skills, intelligence, or initiative. And that's what you're seeing.
Re:Oglala Lakota Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing you're not part of a minority.
They could, technically, 'leave anytime,' sure. And be homeless somewhere. Most of them are unemployable; after all, they have a big black mark on their resumes: they've been living all their lives, unemployed, on the most high-crime res in the region. Would you hire someone with that resume?
It's very hard to get out of a ghetto situation. Not only are they undereducated, but they have no opportunity to find work. It's hard to get a new home elsewhere when you've only ever known the res, and don't have the opportunity for work elsewhere. It's a rotten situation up one side, and down the other.
First off, you're wrong. They receive very little (a couple hundred/month if they enroll in a special welfare program. That's it.) In the 90s, the government built a bunch of houses, and moved everyone into odd little communities. Those have seen fallen into states of disrepair, as nobody could afford to live in them; lipstick on a pig and all that. They need education above all else.
But more to the point, I never said they needed Federal aid. As a libertarian, I believe strongly in private aid organizations (my favorite charity is a particular homeless shelter which is completely privately funded.)
Have you ever been on the Pine Ridge Res? If not, you have no idea what life there is like. I have traveled the western half of the USA, and have never seen a res as depressing and dismal as this. Even the Rosebud reservation, just a couple hours to the East, is substantially better. But if you recall in your history books, the Sioux, specifically the Oglala Lakota, were despised for their refusal to surrender to the USA. They're the tribe that ambushed Gen. Custer. They've never been seen as equals with the rest of America, and the bad situation 100 years ago has lead to the bad situation they live in today.
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Even the Rosebud reservation, just a couple hours to the East, is substantially better.
Wow that is saying something. I've never seen the Pine Ridge Reservation but I have seen the Rosebud one but Rosebud is a very low bar.
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Does being a gay immigrant count?
They are perfectly employable, for example in construction and agriculture. That doesn't require much education.
I didn't say that they received large cash benefits, I said that they "are getting massive amounts of
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Furthermore, poverty is not a barrier to picking up and leaving.
What? Who told you that? Of course it is, we still live in a capitalist society. You can't just go places without money any more. It's getting to be like Europe where every square inch is owned. Trump and his ilk would like to see our public lands sold off to private interests to make this situation even worse. As it is, you already have to pay a lot of money to camp on most so-called public lands, which are really private lands owned by a state or federal government which reserves the right to tell you tha
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Family and personal experience.
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Family and personal experience.
If you don't think it's harder for people with less money to move out, then you're not thinking at all. It doesn't mean it's impossible. It's still a barrier.
Re:Oglala Lakota Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
They are US citizens and they can leave anytime. Furthermore, poverty is not a barrier to picking up and leaving. What's actually going on is that people with initiative and skills do leave the reservations and join mainstream society. That leaves behind the people who are incapable of leaving because they lack the skills, intelligence, or initiative. And that's what you're seeing.
The trouble is, you've described about 95% of all humans. Forcibly dumping people into a shithole and then expecting them to show levels of initiative and risk taking well above what's average is going to leave you with an awful lot of people in a shithole.
And blaming them is simply trying to absolve responsibility from the people who did the dumping.
Instructing a group of people to be better humans than average is not a thing that will solve any problems.
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I didn't "blame them", I simply explained why you're seeing what you're seeing. And the people who "did the dumping" are long dead. The sorry state of reservations is due to current policies adopted by current administrations and politicians.
I'm not "instructing" Native Americans to do anything. What I am sa
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What saved other tribes was opening casinos. I see they have casinos as well, why can't they make money like the other tribes?
Because casino's need customers, and they are literally in the middle of nowhere, with Rapid City ( 76,000 ) being the only city of any size relatively nearby. The other towns aren't even one horse towns, they all share a large dog. At least a four hour drive to any other cities the size of Rapid City.
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Nice US quality healthcare (Score:5, Interesting)
So if you live in a city with higher income and job opportunities you live longer. Live in a poor rural area and you deserve to die. Nice system
Ironic is these bozos who live in these regions are the most adamant on making sure they do not have healthcare so they can get healthcare in their mind as them having it is communism so give it to others who are rich and it will trickle back???!
I don't get the thought process
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I've struggled to find the logic as well in that thinking and I realized I was incorrectly using logic to solve an emotional problem. I think the reason they vote against their interests has more to do with pride than any real fear of socialism. By getting government backed healthcare, it's an admission that they aren't succeeding at life and are just like any other welfare recipient. I also suspect that many going on "disability" to collect a monthly check is a way to save face for many people.
Now do you v
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Ironic is these bozos who live in these regions are the most adamant on making sure they do not have healthcare
You are calling them bozos, which marks you as a prejudiced asshole! Let me explain the reality of the (un)Affordable Care Act for them to you. Before they did not have access to 'quality' healthcare, insurance that covered basics like antibiotics and such was priced out of the market for them. Conditions like diabetes were badly managed or not managed. So they got sick and stayed sicker longer leading to shorter lives, they often watched friends and family die for diseases that if caught sooner from
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If arrogant urban leftists would stop making assumptions and creating negative stereotypes about rural white voters (deplorable racist bozos who are afraid of communism, believe in trickle down economics etc. etc.) it would be rather easy to build a platform, even one including socialized medicine, that would be appealing to them.
Why would the rural poor support Democrat plans for healthcare? Many of them earn just enough to be disqualified from Medicaid but too little to be able to afford good insurance.
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they want to expand the medical industry to become wealthy
No, basically you're an idiot if you think that. What they want is to have a system like they see in other countries that works and where people of all incomes can get decent healthcare. Most of the developed world has figured this out.
simplistic discussion (Score:2)
Simplistic discussions based on observing relationships between poverty, education, and life expectancy are not helpful in addressing
Racism card (Score:3)
Hillbilly land (Score:2)
I wonder if genetic diversity - or rather the lack of it - is part of the equation.
IOW (Score:2)
Trump voters live in 3rd world counties, we just have to wait until they die out.
Trumpcare will hasten that up quite a bit.
How is this news? (Score:2)
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Just drive 70 and stay alive. Drive 45-55 at your own risk of pissing someone off. and on LSD be ready to do 55+ all year round.
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//to do: some lame pun about evictions/convictions or something like that.
Re: Cancer Clusters (Score:5, Insightful)
If people weren't so collectively stupid / selfish they might even see it as a stepping stone to something better again. Unfortunately people are too stupid / selfish and don't see the bigger picture.
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I'm curious, do you favour health insurance for just the healthy and wealthy (i.e. those that don't need it) or do you think you should have single-payer and the half-arsedness of the ACA was the problem?
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Capitalism breaks down when the disparity in power between corporation and consumer becomes so great that all the meaningful choices are solely made by the corporation.
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Capitalism breaks down when the disparity in power between corporation and consumer becomes so great that all the meaningful choices are solely made by the corporation.
Yes, combine it with big money in politics and you have one to a small handful of corporations carving out legal monopolies for a few small bribes. It's not even free market capitalism without some basic protective regulations. It more closely resembles a cartel, or a dictatorship.
Re: Cancer Clusters (Score:5, Interesting)
The ACA made every poor, cheap and lazy person contribute something to the unlimited healthcare they got for free before. The Republicans plan takes away the mandatory buying of insurance and replaced it with either nothing or more free unlimited health care.
The ACA had flaws but it set a minimum standard of care, made everyone buy into it, to defray the cost.
the acha under Republicans increases costs by letting people choose not to have coverage, and decreases the ability to get care.
Two governor's are already taking the options that Republicans siad are posion pills that no sane person would take.
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The ACA made every poor, cheap and lazy person contribute something to the unlimited healthcare they got for free before
The ACA had flaws but it set a minimum standard of care, made everyone buy into it, to defray the cost.
So why didn't insurance get cheaper? The argument was always that people who didn't have insurance were treated for free at the ER, which passed the cost onto everyone else. You'd think that wouldn't be the case now that everyone is covered, so why are premiums and deductibles now much higher?
http://time.com/money/4503325/... [time.com]
I don't like the Republican health care plan either, but please don't act like the ACA solved the real problem; making health care cheaper.