US Space Firms Tell Washington: China Will Take Over the Moon if You're Not Careful (yahoo.com) 165
The US space industry is prodding the US government into refreshing its outdated laws on commercial activity beyond earth: scare it with talk of Chinese galactic domination. A report adds: At a Senate hearing on the space industry this week, companies that build rockets and space habitats and manufacture electronic goods in space spoke about a standard laundry list of complaints, from regulatory burdens to fears of subsidized competitors. But their message was wrapped in patriotic concerns about China's growing capacity for space action. These companies are eager for the US government to allow and invest in commercial activities in orbit and around the moon. Many think the laws governing action in space, and particularly the UN Space Treaty, need refreshing for an age when private companies are close to matching the space capacity of sovereign nations. The last major change was a law on asteroid mining passed in 2015.
Have I been living under a rock?? (Score:1)
"companies that build rockets and space habitats and manufacture electronic goods in space"
Who is doing all of this manufacturing in space. I feel like I just woke up in the future. This is great!!
Re: Have I been living under a rock?? (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, you probably have.
Turns out it wasn't a moon at all. Instead it was a fully armed and operational battle station that we all had to witness the full power of. We asked Chewie to lock in the auxiliary power but our Wookie friend just growled and howled back, grrwaarawhh.
Meanwhile, the "Senate" was actually under full control over and evil Sith Lord. The rebels were able to get a big ass tape cartridge in the world largest robotic tape silo thingy, align a fucking satellite, then upload the battle sta
Last Update 2015 (Score:1)
So, the laws do get updated, and far more regularly than most drug laws. What's the problem?
Competition (Score:1)
Nothing like a bit of it!
There's one way (Score:4, Insightful)
There's one way to get Trumps attention.
Put it in terms of China.
Trump, if we don't fund science, China will be #1 in RD
Trump, if we don't fund NASA, China will own the Moon!
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There's one way to get Trumps attention.
Put it in terms of China.
Trump, if we don't fund science, China will be #1 in RD Trump, if we don't fund NASA, China will own the Moon!
This would make a great SNL skit, a matador waves a Chinese flag in front of Trump who instantly spouts horns, a tail and hooves on is feet and charges the flag. Olé, Olé, Olé..... (or whatever the equivalent of 'Olé' is in Chinese)
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If you really want to sell it, I think you'd have to suggest we could gild the Moon.
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Sir!
Immagine how much you could sell memberships ar Luna-Lago for!
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Lunar 1: Houston, we have a problem. The Chinese have landed their ship on the moon before us.
Houston: Don't worry, Lunar 1. We have things under control.
Lunar 1: Houston, this is getting serious! The Chinese are painting the entire surface of the moon bright red.
Houston: Don't worry Lunar 1. We know what we're doing.
Lunar 1: Houston, the Chinese lander has left the moon. Everyone can see its red now. What do we do?
Houston: Good. Now you can land.
Lunar 1: Okay, and then what?
Houston: Get out that white pain
Why is it wrong to care? (Score:4, Interesting)
Trump, if we don't fund science, China will be #1 in RD
How is it not a problem if a repressive government gets ahead of the west in R&D? Do you like more, or less repressive government and the wrongful imprisonment of dissenters?
Trump, if we don't fund NASA, China will own the Moon!
Again, would you like a militarily aggressive force controlling the moon? That seems like a pretty valid concern for real, not just "a way to get Trump interested". In fact it's why Trump is already pretty interested in continuing NASA's work and why NASA didn't face any major budget cuts, in fact they increased planetary science spending, which is what you would hope from any rational president. We are all better off if a number of nations have operations on the moon, so we should figure out how to get more U.S. presence back on our nearest neighbor.
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Again, would you like a militarily aggressive force controlling the moon? That seems like a pretty valid concern for real, not just "a way to get Trump interested".
Hasn't the most militarily aggressive country done most of the Moon exploration to date?
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Hasn't the most militarily aggressive country done most of the Moon exploration to date?
Yes, but do you want the militarily aggressive that is for free speech and human rights or the one that is against it?
Though frankly the U.S. has toned down from the age of military drone strikes on weddings.
Also it's not like we mounted any weapons on the moon whereas the Chinese certainly would. Do you truly doubt that?
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You mean the country that believes free speech and other rights stop at their border? A country that has most of the worlds prisoners in its prisons? A country that has privatized their prisons to make sure the prisoners are treated like shit and tortured? A country that glories in executing people slowly? A country that routinely invades other countries and destabilizes large areas? A country that never keeps its word? A country that responds to a crook running for election by finding even a bigger one?
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How does the US think free speech stops at its border?
Well, from all the Americans who consider that the Constitution only applies to American citizens to the countries that America actively supports, eg Saudi Arabia to trying to prosecute foriegn journalists.
The US does not glorify in executing people, let alone doing it slowly.
Are you not aware of how executions are carried out in America? Generally it involves shooting some horrible chemicals into the prisoner and watching him flip around as he slowly dies and when they were experimenting with other chemicals, lots of people acted quite happy that it took the prisoner that mu
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I am aware. The fact that executions do occur does not mean they are glorified, and properly administered, there is no "flipping around" [forbes.com]. When it's done properly, loss of consciousness is extremely quick and
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For a country that is, as you insist, military agressive for free speech and human rights, it has supported way too many dictators who were against both. I judge by the deeds, not words.
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I judge by the deeds, not words.
The slave-driving 'land of the free' put paid to words meaning jack shit a long, long time ago.
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Sorry, I can't tell if you are being ironic or not. I think you are, but just in case...
Are you seriously suggesting that China is militarily aggressive relative to the US and Russia? Just look at the countries that you have bombed into freedom. Look at how completely ruined those places are now and how they are now breeding grounds for ISIS.
Have you ever been China? There are certainly things the government censors. That is done normally be deleting it off the net at the ISP level so folks cannot see it. I
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I have been to China, and also to Hong Kong (technically part of, yet very different). Have *you* been to the deep countryside of China, outside of major cities? Do you have any idea of what is really going on in China? Pretty obviously no.
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How is it not a problem if a repressive government gets ahead of the west in R&D? Do you like more, or less repressive government and the wrongful imprisonment of dissenters?
You speak of China as if they were the same as North Korea, or worse, which is manifestly untrue. China, in the 60es, was repressive, no doubt, and you could see it in the fall in living standards, but things have turned around in a radical way since then. Have you ever been to China? If you ask anybody whether they think their government is repressive, they will tell you that the government does what it should - that it does what the people wants. As an American you may not like it, but since this is not y
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Trump, if we don't fund science, China will be #1 in RD
How is it not a problem if a repressive government gets ahead of the west in R&D? Do you like more, or less repressive government and the wrongful imprisonment of dissenters?
Trump, if we don't fund NASA, China will own the Moon!
Again, would you like a militarily aggressive force controlling the moon? That seems like a pretty valid concern for real, not just "a way to get Trump interested". In fact it's why Trump is already pretty interested in continuing NASA's work and why NASA didn't face any major budget cuts, in fact they increased planetary science spending, which is what you would hope from any rational president. We are all better off if a number of nations have operations on the moon, so we should figure out how to get more U.S. presence back on our nearest neighbor.
An interesting thought. If you want to liquidate a company and the tax rate is 35%, that is going to be a very big bite.
If you convince the congress to lower the corporate tax rate to 15%, and then liquidate, you have saved yourself 30% of perhaps a billion dollars or two.
I bet Trump would like to liquidate now, to show he is lilly white clean.
or
Isn't Trump trying to be generous t
Not any more (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm quoting you: "...repressive government and the wrongful imprisonment of dissenters".
As I seem to have to continually remind people on Slashdot, Hillary is not president [americanthinker.com].
Who exactly has Trump imprisoned wrongfully? Or are you saying it is wrong to imprison people who set cars on fire and loot shops? I know many on the left bellive this to be true but I had hoped that rot had not spread to the more rational denizens of Slashdot.
It's just their sheeple, drink the Kool-Aid given to them and think the other is more evil.
While that is indeed true of many Statists, it's not really true of the other more libertarian side of that equation - which only makes sense as the larger a government gets, the more unfeeling and cruel it becomes... so you can imagine what happens in essentially a world-wide government.
Session, not Trump (Score:2)
From this side of history, the will of Session to stoke up the war on drug and particularly get more repressive against Marijuana, is definitively wrongful imprisonment in my book, even if it is not the legal definition.
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Another clueless statist.
From this side of history, the will of Session to stoke up the war on drug and particularly get more repressive against Marijuana
And you say that why? Because Sessions himself has said he will not go against state legalization [huffingtonpost.com]
You can't really be blamed for not knowing what is going on, since you only read news from people who are tying to lie to you to make you mad...
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Who exactly has Trump imprisoned wrongfully? Or are you saying it is wrong to imprison people who set cars on fire and loot shops? I know many on the left bellive this to be true but I had hoped that rot had not spread to the more rational denizens of Slashdot
The U.S.has the highest prison population per capita than any other country in the world, by quite a margin. Either Americans are uniquely awful people, or your justice system is fucked. Which is it, it do you have done other rationalizations as to
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If China takes over the moon, that will bring it in conflict w/ the Muslim world.
The US needs to take over the moon like it needs to take over Syria. Let the Chinese conquer the moon, and then have Shezuan Pork there. Feed that info the the Muslims, and watch their heads explode in places like Lahore, Qum, Raqqa, Riyadh, Gaza, Cairo, Benghazi, et al
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Except that Trump is not the one inventing this scheme.
# anytime you want to rattle the American public, blame China
# anytime you want to push expensive budget, invoke China
# anytime you want to get away from being blame, point your finger to China
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Actually it is not just China. China and Russia are joining forces to create a joint commercial space program which will draw in others countries to expand it well beyond US efforts. I fully support US space firms in their efforts to remain relevant, so should anyone else who prefers a space industrial complex over a war industrial complex. Invest in a future amongst the stars or invest in the extinction of the human race, drowned in blood, gore and shrapnel.
What you are seeing is other countries only inve
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China should be careful (Score:2)
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Nice reference!
There's a common cryptozoology theory that "the grays" are actually a very advanced form of human life who've come from the future to observe their humble beginnings.
So you have to ask yourself, do they look more European or Asian in appearance? If the answer is the latter, then perhaps there's no doubt about which ethnicity will colonize space!
Heck, it worked the first time (Score:4, Insightful)
When it was the Russians. Worth a try.
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When it was the Russians. Worth a try.
"Know your audience." A pitch on the merits isn't going to convince more than a handful of them.
Space is Adam Smith's Commons (Score:1)
It is there to be used to the benefit of all, no one can "own" it.
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You do realize that Smith's point was that commons were a bad thing, because they would inevitably be overused and destroyed. Hence the phrase, "tragedy of the commons".
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And actually, it wasn't Smith, it was William Forster Lloyd.
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Only if they are allowed to be used for self-interested aims.
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And of course, all we have to do to make sure they're not used for self-interested aims to change human nature. That should be easy enough, right?
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And who writes those treaties and regulations? And how do we cope with their human nature?
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It is there to be used to the benefit of all, no one can "own" it.
Just like the southwest Pacific and all those teeny uninhabitable atolls no one can own?
Bush warned us... (Score:2)
Undeserving. (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering that the US legislature has done everything they can to impede progress in space exploration, I don't think they deserve any say about the future of space exploration. China isn't great but at least they are investing in science instead of sticking their heads in the sand and saying global warming is a hoax.
These things happen when (Score:2)
you allow avarice and greed dictate national policy.
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Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
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Then you'll have a bunch of space launch companies with no work to do other than launching private satellites...although without regulation in space, maybe they'll also launch autonomous space fighters to attack competing satellites and defend their own. And then we'll have Kessler syndrome and the whole space launch business will shut down. And then everyone will have to buy flaming space junk insurance for their homes and cars.
Maybe the space junk insurance industry will be bigger than the space launch in
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It's appears to be one of those situations where there is far too little return for a purely private model to work.
It's worth mentioning that NASA didn't build the lunar lander, Grumman built the lunar lander. It's been "private space" ever since we ran out of captured German V2 rockets and started
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Seriously guys, this isn't hard to understand.
That'd be "understand" as in, not quite the average toddler's level of understanding. Thanks for your valuable input.
Let's wheel you in to one of these meetings so you can stun everyone with your five words of sheer intellectual brilliance.
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The Germans already have (Score:4, Funny)
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So much potential, but such a crappy result.
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Imho The best part of the movie was this scene with finland https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Who'da thought everyone else would have enough money to run secret space programs with weaponised space stations and no one noticed.
Edgars Industries (Score:2)
will never allow the Chinese to take over the Moon.
Jingo it up, bitches. (Score:3)
I don't care what motivation we have, if it takes sparking our president's over-prickly ego, or threatening ever-insecure America generally with the idea that someone else will get there first.
I truly don't care the excuse: just fucking go back to space already.
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Yep. when our biggest fear was the Soviet Ruskies and their godless nuclear and rocket scientists burying us in nuclear dust, engineering and science was a rewarding career in the U.S., math and science education was a big deal, and shit got built and done. Grab your pocket protector and your slide rule and join the government research lab, we gotta beat the Russians!
If Trump and Putin are just a little too tight with each other (I mean, get a room for chrissakes and get it over with), maybe a little red
Intent decoded (not drink more Ovaltine) (Score:2)
Ya Got Trouble (Score:2)
Let's see, china's moon exploration program is called CLEP.
Trouble, oh we got trouble,
Right on the moon!
With a capital "T"
That rhymes with "C"
And that stands for CLEP,
That rhymes with "K"
And that stands for KLEP,
That's stealing the moon!
We've surely got trouble!
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Well done with the Musicman reference!
We will build a great lunar wall... (Score:2)
The Moon belongs to America (Score:2)
and anxiously awaits the arrival of our astromen.
Will you be among them?
Just build a wall (Score:2)
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That will stop illegal immigration (one way or another...)
South China Sea (Score:3)
You all seem to be making fun of this, but look at the territorial grabs that are taking place. Shoals and tiny islands that are very far from China and very close to other countries are being claimed, settled and developed by China. They don't give a shit about treaties, pacts or international laws. They take what they want.
In the long run, China has a HUGE advantage (Score:2)
China has at least one HUGE advantage over the US: 3-4 times the number of taxpayers. As China becomes increasingly wealthy, it'll be easier for China to raise the funds for ambitious space-exploration projects.
If China prioritizes Moon-colonization over travel to Mars, it means only one thing: its leaders aren't confident that they can get to Mars with current technology & survive long enough to plant a flag.
The moon isn't a "stepping stone" to anything... even after you launch a rocket from the moon,
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even after you launch a rocket from the moon, you're STILL almost as deep inside Earth's gravity well as you'd have been after launching from Earth.
This is either full blown wrong or an exceptionally egregious use of the word 'almost'. Don't have time to check which. ;)
We're too busy thinking about Mars (Score:2)
It seems to me that we haven't really gotten past the moon yet. How about establishing a base or two there, build some stable science, refueling, and manufacturing capabilities there, and THEN start worrying about the trip to Mars.
What will we find on the Moon? (Score:2)
I remember, but can't find, a quote that came out in the late 50s or 60s, that went like this:
"What will we find on the Moon?"
"Russians!"
I thought it was Edward Teller, but I can't find any refs on the web to that. Of course it's entirely possible at my age, that I made it up...
And obviously that prediction failed badly.
Re:So give us your tax money (Score:4, Funny)
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We must not allow a pork gap.
too late lol
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They are not just complaining about lack of funding, but also about the UN Outer Space Treaty [wikipedia.org], which tries to make the Universe into a Marxist-Leninist Paradise. The US should have never signed the treaty, and should withdraw. It is becoming clear that the future development in space will be by private enterprise.
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Uh, did you post the long link?
The treaty is about 'not putting weapons of mass destruction' into space.
How is that a marxist leninist paradise?
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"Banning weapons in outer space is for the benefit of humanity. "
I remember that book. It's not a weapon, it's a communication laser.
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The treaty is required especially on the basis of preventing nuclear weapons use in space.
No.
*A* treaty is required, *this* one can be replaced/renegotiated. Isn't that what civilized nations do when circumstances change, renegotiate or replace a dated treaty with a new, more comprehensive one that accounts for current realities?
Strat
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You want to waste money on all that?
What, do they write treaties on gold-pressed latinum now?
Compare costs of a typical treaty negotiation meeting to a just a single strike of ~50 Tomahawk cruise missiles at ~$325M each.
Diplomacy is ^always^ the cheaper option.
Now compare that same ballpark figure of the costs of negotiating a new treaty to the cost of effectively being cut out of the economic, technical, and scientific benefits of space exploration/exploitation.
Diplomacy is far and away the better option.
Strat
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Re: So give us your tax money (Score:2)
Sounds like mobster logic to me. Besides, only an American would see learning foreign languages as a bad thing.
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Re:So give us your tax money (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no economic case for space exploration.
If this is true then we have nothing to worry about when space is exploited by China, and Silicon Valley billionaires will have no interest in it.
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"Except that there demonstrably was. Please describe an economic case for a radiation-blasted vacuum with nothing in it."
Just google "Science that can't be done on Earth" like we did.
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And what is the economic case for this? And reading propaganda about space from Space Nutters is not very enlightening. We've been promised space-based manufacturing since the 1960s. And every time our technology got better and we simply don't need space.
Face it, it's over.
I haven't seen you for ages, "Space Nutter" dickhead. How's it goin. Still getting mad about human activity in space? lol.
Still bizarrely capitalizing 'space nutter' as if it's a thing?
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Except that there demonstrably was. Please describe an economic case for a radiation-blasted vacuum with nothing in it.
Planet Earth is in it. You dopey cunt.
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The problem here is that you can't expect much rational and intelligent discourse on Slashdot these days, so that comment calling you paranoid is no surprise at all. Remember, this site is chock-full of far right-wing nationalists and objectivist libertarians, like much of the tech industry only much more concentrated here.
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Yeah, I understand that hope, but people are actually getting dumber, especially on this site as so many of the smart people have abandoned it.
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Or are you all paid shills for China?
Shit guys he's rumbled us.
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Can't you see how much our space tech has been repressed? How much more time does a superpower need to colonize the moon?
You need thicker tin foil mate. Some of the N-rays are getting through your shiny cap.