Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Science

We Risk Programming Inequality into Our DNA (vice.com) 367

An anonymous reader writes:Imagine having a chip in your brain to boost your concentration, or pumping artificial blood into your veins to improve stamina. With gene editing, this may be possible. Scientists are pioneering the ability to tweak our DNA to wipe out disease and maybe even allow us to choose desirable traits in our unborn children, like height or intelligence. None of these technologies have moved out of the lab, but Americans are already uncomfortable with them. In a survey from Pew Research Center, almost half said they wouldn't want to edit their baby's genes -- whether it were to combat disease or shop for traits. Nearly 70 percent of survey participants also said they were more worried than enthusiastic about the possibility of synthetic-blood and brain-chip implants. They saw these options as "meddling with nature," even though we've been using technology to enhance our lives for thousands of years.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

We Risk Programming Inequality into Our DNA

Comments Filter:
  • by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#52841383) Journal
    EOM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#52841385)

    for hundreds of millions of years.

    We generally call it "evolution" round these parts.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      Shout it out: "I want a Monsanto kid!"

      • Whether it's Monsanto and RoundUp-resistant weeds, or bananas and Panama disease : Nature [nytimes.com] adapts [bbc.com], while man-made genes don't. If humans modify their genes, the "most-popular genes" will become a larger and larger portion of the population, leading to a lack of genetic diversity, making for a wonderful opportunity for some disease to conquer them all, or some natural change to make it difficult for that portion of the population to adapt. As it's been said before, "Nature finds a way."

    • We generally call it "evolution" round these parts.

      True enough, but there is absolutely an ethical concern.

      An interesting thing about evolution is that usually traits aren't fully removed, not for an extremely long time. You tend to get a range. Maybe a bell curve, maybe a curve skewed to one side or another, but it usually isn't a complete removal. Human adults have an average height, but adults range from under three feet (1 meter) to over seven feet (2.3 meters). Most people tend to be biologically extroverted, but about 1/3 of people are introverte

  • by MSTCrow5429 ( 642744 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#52841387)
    Huh, the writeup doesn't bring up the "inequality" boogeyman. Wonder how that got inro the title.
  • already done (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rubycodez ( 864176 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#52841389)

    humans have inequality programmed into their DNA. that's why for example average strength of women is less than 2/3 that of men. that's why I can get a sunburn in less than third the time as someone whose ancestors are from some other places, so unfair I demand sunshine time equality!

    • humans have inequality programmed into their DNA. that's why for example average strength of women is less than 2/3 that of men. that's why I can get a sunburn in less than third the time as someone whose ancestors are from some other places, so unfair I demand sunshine time equality!

      Yes. This.

      Peanuts taste like vomit. I demand flavour equity.

      • Peanuts taste like vomit. I demand flavour equity.

        Seriously? When your mutation gives you delicious vomit??? Ingrate.

        • it should make you happy that three times more children have peanut allergies now than in 1997

          • it should make you happy that three times more children have peanut allergies now than in 1997

            Nah, they're just faking it because they don't like the taste of vomit.

    • Re:already done (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:22PM (#52841501)

      humans have inequality programmed into their DNA. that's why for example average strength of women is less than 2/3 that of men. that's why I can get a sunburn in less than third the time as someone whose ancestors are from some other places ...

      Exactly. "Equality" is a social construct.

    • It is also arguable that since the less successful tend to breed quite a bit more in modern society that there is already historically unusual pressure triggering this -less intelligent, attractive people are contributing more to the gene pool. Gene manipulation on if it becomes standard medical practice (cheap) might be a panacea for this.
    • A zillion years ago, some person had attributes that made them a better hunter. They brought home the best meat and their children ate better, so they got to breed with better mates. These hunting abilities overlapped with fighting abilities, so not only could they get better food, they could neutralize local rivals or lead the fighting against the tribe on the other side of the river.

      These people became clan, then tribal leaders. Eventually more formalized class systems enforced these breeding systems a

  • edit away (Score:4, Funny)

    by zlives ( 2009072 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:06PM (#52841395)

    we have evolved to Trump2016 maybe evolution needs help!!

    and if you believe in creationism... the devil is winning and god needs help.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      the devil is winning and god needs help.

      But recent polls indicate her lead is evaporating. So maybe there is a god.

  • Risk? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by onyxruby ( 118189 ) <onyxruby@ c o m c a s t . net> on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:08PM (#52841413)

    We already have inequality in our DNA, and not just the *ist kind. Some people are inherently susceptible or resistant to certain diseases, more likely to live longer and so on. The very nature of DNA is to be unequal and provide genetic diversity. Species that lack enough diversity in their DNA have a habit of going extinct.

    Parents will decide to look out for the best interest of their child and enhance their child's opportunities in life. The body, can and will be hacked, get over it.

    • All of these clever nitwits will willy-nilly splice and dice, with only the weakest knowledge of how one splice affects another. Kill the insects that eat corn, then end up killing lots of bees, unintentionally.

      We know so little about DNA, RNA, rDNA, mitochondrial interactions, and all of this across the entropy of life cycle, that it's truly folly to create mutants without full knowledge of the implication(s).

      The "after all, we've been doing this for millennia" is also total crap. We've homogenized to the

    • by BenBoy ( 615230 )
      I think you may have missed the point. These aren't advantages that can be lost later. There's no social 'churn' in such a situation; the advantages snowball, as the cutting edge belongs to the sleepless [wikipedia.org]. It's sorta like how, in the US, we've created permanent inequality with our tax structure and Citizens United. Or like a somewhat more organic singularity, run by the love-child of Hillary and Donald. Fortunately, spaghetti-code [wikipedia.org] that DNA is, my guess is it'll be a lot more brittle than most people suppose
  • Always Afraid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jim Sadler ( 3430529 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:10PM (#52841429)
    Being afraid or even being offended by new technologies is the usual thing to expect. When people heard that they could go 30 mph on a train many insisted that death would be the consequence of moving that quickly. Now we have people scared to death over drones. If you build it they will fear it !
    • Yes, it is normal to be cautious of new things with unknown effects, especially when we know the effects will be significant, but we don't know what they'll be. The reason that's normal is because it makes sense; most people are smart enough to be careful.

      Most animals avoid putting unknown substances in their mouth until they first look at it, smell it, then they have a small lick to taste it. There is one exception ...

      There is a certain group of people who follow one of these two patterns of thinking:

      Pat

      • No real thinking, just "hey that's new, let's try it and see what happens" (typically teenagers). Or "hey that's new (even though it's not), let's mandate that everyone must do it and see what happens" (typically these people call themselves 'liberals').

        There's also: "this ancient book written by primitive goat-herders says such-and-such and makes a bunch of supernatural and downright ridiculous claims, so we need to follow it blindly" (typically these people call themselves 'conservatives').

  • by jeffb (2.718) ( 1189693 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:10PM (#52841431)

    Given "nature's" obvious shortfalls, and the resounding success that our "meddling" has yielded so far -- clothing, farming, animal husbandry, domesticated fire, water purification, and so on -- I find it a bit depressing that the "meddling with nature" trope still gets any traction at all. I rather wish that those who oppose "meddling with nature" would pull themselves away from this globe-spanning communication network and go become wolf food, rather than bothering the rest of us.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by phantomfive ( 622387 )
      If it gives 30 good years to my lifespan, I'll definitely do it.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Generally, I agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to say we don't have a choice.

      The advent of antibiotics especially, and various other social and economic systems, have effectively halted a large portion of natural selection in humans. There is no more evolution / survival of the fittest happening in the western world. Medicine, vaccines, social support mechanisms, etc are all hugely good and beneficial, but the result will be a long-term problematic build up of genetic material that will weigh down any fun

    • Irrational responses will always trump future advances. In some ways this can create a balancing effect so that we don't catapult ourselves into catastrophic scenarios with technology but I definitely agree that that high of a number is troublesome.

      I would wonder what that 70% would say to someone suffering from Huntington's disease. "Sorry your genetic death timer shouldn't be removed because it is unnatural."
    • To be fair, we also invented nuclear weapons, globalization with the resulting spread of invasive species and deadly diseases, electricity and the burning of unprecedented amounts of carbon, environmentally unfriendly farming methods, and are in the process of causing what is likely to be the largest mass extinction in history. In the near future we might also create humanity-destroying AI or bioweapons.

      Of course, nature invented supervolcanos, planet-ending meteors, supernovas, and various such things as c

    • ...and the resounding success that our "meddling" has yielded so far -- clothing, farming, animal husbandry, domesticated fire, water purification, and so on -- I find it a bit depressing that the "meddling with nature" trope still gets any traction at all.

      There is a HUGE difference between developing external technologies and altering internals that we don't understand. I would put human understanding of human biology somewhere between .05% and .07%. We can't even create relatively simple medicines that don't have side effects, or create replacements for relatively simple organs without risking death, or manufacture basic replacement parts that actually work, and you're all for altering our foundational existence?

      That's insane. You've been watching way t

  • by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:12PM (#52841433) Homepage Journal

    I have family histories of both hypertension and arthritis. If it was possible for me to prevent my children from developing these diseases, I would have to think long and hard about it.

    LK

  • We should program all humans to be equal by design. Therefore, all babies since now on should be clones. We just need to find the perfect template.
    • We should program all humans to be equal by design. Therefore, all babies since now on should be clones. We just need to find the perfect template.

      The future is YOU.

    • Diversity is important.

      Look at the banana crop- almost all bananas produced in the world are identical clones propagated by cuttings. Now they're being wiped out because that particular cultivar has a weakness to a disease.

      Similar things are happening with Arabica coffee beans- thank god we've got Robusta (as bad as it is), because the genes from Robusta might help keep Arabica alive.

      Imagine if all humans were clones of each other and had a certain weakness to "Honey Badger Flu"- guess what, when Honey Bad

  • by penguinoid ( 724646 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:19PM (#52841487) Homepage Journal

    While it's a nice thought to say that everyone is equal, in reality some are stronger, some are smarter, some are more persistent, some are more creative, some are more empathic, some are more willing to take risks to improve their condition... and what is even less fair, some of that you can't change much beyond what you were born with. Of course, with more advanced technology it may be possible for people to choose whatever genetics they want for themselves, or at least for their children. But then, some people just don't want that sort of responsibility.

  • Due to recent improvements in genetic engineering, namely CRISPR, the trend towards engineering ourselves and our children is almost inevitable:

    Genetic Engineering Will Change Everything Forever - CRISPR [youtube.com]

    (Maybe that's exactly what TFA is talking about, but it's blocked for me at work.)
  • Internet, cellphones, vaccines, etc. People can either accept progress or get left behind. Things like DNA programming are here now thanks to things like CRISPR. Expect custom babies in your lifetime. I look forward to improvements in my own programming for that matter as I have inherited some baggage and in need of some tweaking.

  • The main problem with all this DNA 'meddling' will be that its very expensive (at least at first) allowing only the very wealthy to improve their genes but not the rest of us, creating an even bigger divide between the super-rich and the rest of humanity. That is a bad thing.
    • by sinij ( 911942 )
      Unfortunately, any kind of evolution is an adversarial process. For example, people who weren't somewhat resistant to plagues were left behind. So far, super-rich are the same species as the rest of us, so their success in gene editing will also be humanity's success.
    • I got my genome sequenced for a hundred bucks a decade after the Human Genome Project concluded. How long did it take the third world gain cell phones, which are now ubiquitous?

      If this technology is ever denied to the poor, it will be the consequence of government meddling at the behest of busybody moralizers and the ultra-rich who manipulate them as useful idiots.

  • Editing DNA is just too creepy for many people to consider it. BUT..... Selectively choosing sperm and egg for specific properties from a large pool created by the parents (like what was done in Gattaca) is something I could see done. People would simply see it as taking the randomness out and picking the best characteristics from what they (the parents) contribute.
    • It's called IVF and if you have IVF/ICSI it's already being done just to increase the chance of actually getting pregnant. They also screen the embryo for nasty inherited diseases if they run in the family. No reason why this cannot be extended, but the procedure is not exactly pleasant for women.

  • by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:45PM (#52841679) Homepage

    Frankly I do not see why anyone in the world getting Artificially inseminated is not insisting on Dean Karnazes's sperm.

    Frankly, I am surprised people aren't hunting him down and getting sperm at gun point. At the age of 54, he can't run very fast, even if he literally does not need to stop EVER.

    He once ran for over 80 hour straight, without sleep.

    Worse than the Terminator.

  • They saw these options as "meddling with nature," even though we've been using technology to enhance our lives for thousands of years.

    Call me a luddite but comparing the selective breeding we've been doing for thousands of years with livestock, for example, to the ability to insert cat and lizard DNA into a fertilised human egg cell and produce people that can see in the dark and regrow severed limbs is like comparing a stone hand-axe to a chain saw. When you are able to modify the human genome on that level you would be well advised to be agonisingly careful.

  • by poofmeisterp ( 650750 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:47PM (#52841699) Journal

    There's always a BUT.

    There comes the issue of balance. When there's something good, there's something negative/bad to counterbalance it. It happens in every part of our lives. Everything biologically (chemically, physically, electromagnetically) must find balance and is always striving to do so. Heck, that's what the universe operates on with everything we've found so far; something got screwed up and things went BOOM, this way, that way, or didn't...but what's always been observed is energy of all types converting, exchanging, repelling, attracting, you name it. Our entire existence is the result of imbalance and everything trying (unsuccessfully so far) to find balance.

    Having said that, it's just plain scary to think that there's even a remote possibility that a genetic change can offer something of awesomeness and not have a major negative to counterbalance it. e.g. "I'm 7'2" tall now and have massive muscles. Downside is that I'm lacking calcium and my center of gravity is off."

    To try and meet the demand of maintaining balance, more muscle need to be used. Since the rest of the body's components haven't been accounted for when it comes to an imbalance, it's quite possible that one of those imbalances will destroy or injure other parts of that body. It's a complicated mess (and a beautiful one), but we have become what we are today due to accidents (oops, just had sex with a different species of human, but look how tough my kid is), disasters (big rock hit, make everything cold, body must adapt and pass genes on with adaptations), and so many others. Heck, why do we have butt hair? It doesn't really do anything but get in the way as far as we can tell, but the body hasn't mutated it away over time, so it does something, right?

    Back to the topic.. If I volunteer to have my kid (don't have one, just saying) given an advantage in advanced brain development with an emphasis on the pre-frontal cortex, perhaps it will trigger a dormant gene somewhere around the age of 25 that breaks down neural connections and causes brain cells to trigger death so it doesn't, you know, explode. I'm stating something that can be argued to death (no pun), but it's just food for thought.

    It comes back to what I said in the beginning - everything finds balance, and usually good is just a swinging level of imbalance from the bad which normally causes something else good to cancel it out, but the extreme bad used to cancel out the good might be TOO MUCH for the good to counteract, hence problem. I don't need to state the obvious about not knowing how bad it is until it happens.

    So, who wants to sign up as a 100% committed test subject and relieve the testing company from all legal recourse if something goes wrong? I'm not quite there. Need to see more examples where I can ask questions and have the questions answered along with a demonstration of the outcome or a new example with a modification that helps to cancel/counteract something I find wrong. I'm still talking rats at this point. Seeing other humans who have committed to the project and seeing their failures and successes just leads to more questions. I guess I still have something to live for (though I have no idea what it is). I guess it's "I want to see what's gonna happen next".

  • I don't think a blanket ban would necessarily be a good thing.

    If we can eliminate certain diseases and syndromes, that might be beneficial for all of society as well as the individual. Although, care must be taken we don't stifle our genetic diversity too much. Some of our weaknesses might be strengths under certain circumstances (example: sickle cell).

    When it comes to "cosmetic" enhancements, that's where we should leave DNA alone (unless it's for things such as eliminating hare-lip or other conditions t

  • by 0xdeadbeef ( 28836 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:51PM (#52841723) Homepage Journal

    The fact that paranoid, credulous, and superstitious people will avoid genetic therapy is a feature, not a bug.

    The only real risk is that their numbers become too large and they become an unsustainable burden on society as the human baseline leaves them far behind. Their own sense of entitlement might very well create the sci-fi dystopia they're currently whining about.

  • almost half said they wouldn't want to edit their baby's genes

    Interestingly enough 46% of Americans believe God created people in his image only a few thousand years ago. I wonder if there's any correlation.

    It would be most interesting if natural selection ends up eliminating god.

  • Of course people are hesitant about embracing a "brain chip implant". It stinks of overeager release. People were hesitant about the nascent state of smartwatches for the same reason.

    Survey them about "Fourth gen, polished, already-found-to-be-useful implants".

    The doubts toward DNA tinkering may be similarly couched. "How do you feel about allowing the population access to predefined, targeted splices for specific (eg disease) conditions? These are contained splices, with well-understood boundaries an
  • by Jodka ( 520060 ) on Wednesday September 07, 2016 @12:56PM (#52841771)

    from the ./ summary:

    We Risk Programming Inequality into Our DNA ...With gene editing, this may be possible. Scientists are pioneering the ability to tweak our DNA to wipe out disease and maybe even allow us to choose desirable traits in our unborn children, like height or intelligence.

    That is a rather stupid take on the issue for at least two reasons:

    First, the situation at present is that humans already have unequal genetic gifts. Genetic engineering will enable us to help those who are deficient, to aid those (or the children of those) who suffer from from lousy genetic makeup. Think of it as eugenics done right; We do not exterminate or sterilize the genetically deficient, instead we enhance the genes of their offspring and let them carry on. That would increase, not decrease equality.

    Second, we should be concerned with improved well-being of society as a whole, instead of (as appears the poster to be) obsessed with a perverse desire to make everyone equal. Making just only one person in the world better off is always a Pareto improvement but can either increase or decrease equality.

         

    • I think the worry is that "the haves" will have the ability to genetically engineer their children to have higher intelligence, better looks, stronger muscles, better coordination, bigger willies, perkier air bags.

      The "have nots" will be base-model humans.

      This will make the divide between the rich and the poor larger and condemn the descendant of those on the bottom of the stack to stay on the bottom.

  • I don't care about any cosmetic eye-colour changes.
    Don't care about intelligence, etc.

    I just wish I could have genetically predisposed them to get up off their arses and do some housework.

    • The no dinner until X is done works wonders. The thing is you have to actually enforce it and then only let them eat the next morning. I only had to do that once and they know I am serious and will follow through. They still whine and bitch about how they hate having to pickup their toys, my response now is that I hate having to feed them. They both know that means they won't get dinner until the mess is picked up and will stop bitching about it.
  • "In a survey from Pew Research Center, almost half said they wouldn't want to edit their baby's genes"

    My guess is that they only surveyed Westerners, likely Americans, who've been the subject of heavy social programming for the last 50 years.

    Ask the REST of the world, you're going to get a different answer. Hell, in India and China simply knowing your baby's going to be a girl is enough to get her aborted or tossed into the river after birth. Give them the option to *tweak* away the chance to even BE fema

  • (parkinson class of disorders, not parkinson's disease - very related, not the same) - I chose to not have kids. Bummed my wife out quite a lot, but I told her I was also ok with raising the children of her pick of donors - I even made a few suggestions. Either way, my disease is under study, extremely rare, and currently un-named; it's also dominant-trait, and generally is rather minor in the impact it has on my family members what that have it. Gene editing for disease control? How about we just get
  • Nearly 70 percent of survey participants also said they were more worried than enthusiastic about the possibility of synthetic-blood and brain-chip implants.

    Future Apple enthusiasts will get brain-chip implants and ditch their ears -- to make themselves more water resistant.

  • About 90% of the women who learn their child will have Down's syndrome [wikipedia.org] choose to have an abortion. Very few will say much if anything at all about it out of respect for the other 10% and those who didn't have the test at all. Maybe we won't do designer babies but at least remove genes strongly corrolated with bad medical conditions, because ultimately nobody wants their kid to have potential heart/lung/liver/kidney diseases, be predisposed for cancer and whatnot. But the implied critique against other paren

  • Sometimes referred to as 'eugenics'. The idea that one group of people, due to some inherent superiority, should rule over others. Don't we all want to be in that group? Don't we fear that we are in the other group?

    Robert Klark Graham, founder of the Nobel Sperm Bank, was fond of placing advertisements in various publications (particularly Mensa publications) that simply said "The smarter you are, the more children you should have."

    On the surface, that seems a fine and sensible sentiment. But underlying it

  • It's not like inequality is already programmed into our DNA. We can ALL swim like Michael Phelps. If you can't, you're just not trying hard enough. Yes this is sarcasm. No man is created equal. Which doesn't mean that a level playing field for all is a bad concept.
  • Essentially, this is still evolution. The queasy, moral folks will breed themselves out in the long run.

"Ada is PL/I trying to be Smalltalk. -- Codoso diBlini

Working...