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The Military Government United States Science Technology

The New F-35 Is So Stealthy, It's Harder To Train Pilots (airforcetimes.com) 343

An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Air Force Times: The F-35 Lightning II is so stealthy, pilots are facing an unusual challenge. They're having difficulty participating in some types of training exercises, a squadron commander told reporters Wednesday. During a recent exercise at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, F-35 squadrons wanted to practice evading surface-to-air threats. There was just one problem: No one on the ground could track the plane. 'If they never saw us, they couldn't target us,' said Lt. Col. George Watkins, the commander of the 34th Fighter Squadron at Hill Air Force Base, Utah. The F-35s resorted to flipping on their transponders, used for FAA identification, so that simulated anti-air weapons could track the planes, Watkins said.
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The New F-35 Is So Stealthy, It's Harder To Train Pilots

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  • As PE said (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Lawrence_Bird ( 67278 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @09:46AM (#52659693) Homepage

    don't..don't believe the hype!

    A very troubled, costly program trying to generate some positive spin.

    • by Ken McE ( 599217 )
      “For most of us, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to bed down a new weapon set and make it employable and bring this capability for the defense of our nation,” Anderson said. “Everyone from the youngest airmen on up through our wing commanders is totally invested in this program. We are all excited and very motivated for what we’ve accomplished over the last year and what we’re going to accomplish in the future.”

      Nope, no hype or spin here.
    • Probably. USA wouldn't export a really stealthy airplane (F-22) even though several countries would rather buy that than F-35.

    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      I too expect exaggeration. The aircraft has numerous external hardpoints so if it were a problem all you'd do is mount something reflective on one of those.

      The fact that they're claiming this is a "problem" suggests to me they weren't trying very hard. I expect Russia and China will be a little more enterprising.

      Even the US Navy is beginning to make noises [navytimes.com] about backing away from stealth, and that may be because they've been studying the problem of detecting enemy stealth aircraft. Some people believe th

      • Mounting something reflective means that's something extra the missile can track, negating the whole point of evasion training. The idea is that the pilot learns the effects of various tactics while a missile's tracking them.

        They'd need something the SAM launcher can track to give the missile an initial lock, without altering the missile's characteristics. A transponder they can turn on (for the initial launch) and off (once the missile sees them and starts tracking) would do the job nicely.

    • by neonv ( 803374 )

      It does not make sense to disregard evidence of stealth based on program cost overruns. Stealth is one aspect of the F-35 that has gone well. Keep an open mind and make decision based on data, not hype or preconceived biases.


    • Sure, one way to see it. Another way is to say; the game has changed. It;s about who attacks first because the latest stealth tech cannot be defended against.
    • The program HAS been expensive in the short run. A lot of money has been spent om R&D.

      People who are less interested in facts and more interested in rooting for or against their team or idea then decide "I don't like it, so it sucks in every way." People interested in objectiveness and facts learn that spending all that money allowed some pretty good stuff to be developed. I won't argue that ot was worth every penny, but we did get something for that money.

    • They all are.

      Remember when the F-22 was a ridiculous boondoggle that nobody would ever use? Or the Abrams turbine engine burned so hot that it created an exhaust plume that was highly visible on IR and kilometers long? And ridiculous ceramic armor that was inferior to good old boring steel everywhere but the imaginations of ponsy British scientists? And that the Marines actually refused to use them in Gulf One because the previous tank (the M-60) was clearly superior?

      The thing about $Trillion programs is th

    • by c ( 8461 )

      Amen. Without knowing what kinds of constraints the SAM crews were under during the exercise, it's pretty much impossible to tell whether this was a realistic exercise or not.

  • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @10:02AM (#52659765)

    So the F-35 pilot exits Sprawlmart, and looks around for his plane.

    I know I parked it here . . . but I just can't see it anywhere!

  • Pointless hype (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HuskyDog ( 143220 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @10:03AM (#52659783) Homepage
    Yes, well maybe the aircraft's signature was too low for the threat system to engage them, but if you want to increase the signature of the stealthy aircraft there are lots of easy ways, such as:

    1) Lower the undercarriage.

    2) Many low signature aircraft have corner reflectors which either bolt on or are hidden behind doors and which greatly increase the radar returns. They are used to hide the true signature when flying somewhere where someone may try to measure your radar cross section. I have no idea if the F35 has such a feature, but I would be surprised if it doesn't.

    3) Fit external stores. I don't know if the F35 supports this option.

    So, a story about something that isn't a real problem and instead suggests a badly planned training exercise re-cast as an opportunity to say how great their aircraft are.
    • Yes, well maybe the aircraft's signature was too low for the threat system to engage them, but if you want to increase the signature of the stealthy aircraft there are lots of easy ways,

      ...snip...

      So, a story about something that isn't a real problem and instead suggests a badly planned training exercise re-cast as an opportunity to say how great their aircraft are.

      If we take the story at face value, yeah this is a good thing. OTOH, we've had stealth fighters for some time now, I would have thought we'd worked out procedures for training with them a long time ago.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Flipping radar transponder switch sounds much easier ..

      • by skam240 ( 789197 )

        "Flipping radar transponder switch sounds much easier ..

        THANKYOU. Unfortunatly my mod points expired yesterday.

        Why this guy got modded up for suggesting more complex solutions to a problem that was already solved is beyond me

        • by realxmp ( 518717 )
          You use corner reflectors because you want to train people to use active and passive radar to track a target (like a MiG-21). A transponder ain't the kind of simulation you're after there because it's just squarking out an active position.
          • We're not training the missile ops to use their radar, though.

            We're training the pilots on how to use their plane's stealth to evade missiles. Undermining that stealth capability doesn't help.

          • If you're simulating something, can't you just do that in middleware? Why would you want to engineer hardware?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by DerekLyons ( 302214 )

      1) Lower the undercarriage.

      Which greatly limits the performance of the aircraft and thus provides much less than optimum training for the missile operators.

      2) Many low signature aircraft have corner reflectors which either bolt on or are hidden behind doors and which greatly increase the radar returns.

      [[Citation Needed]] - not only that such things exist, but that the F-35 has them.

      3) Fit external stores. I don't know if the F35 supports this option.

      It does (I know this because I'm not too l

    • by neonv ( 803374 )

      The F-35 does not support external stores and opening the bay doors or lowering gear degrade the aerodynamics, making evasion maneuvers that they were practicing very difficult. Turning on the transponder makes a lot of sense in this case.

    • by Xest ( 935314 )

      Lower your undercarriage so that you can be tracked whilst pulling high-G missile evasion manoeuvres?

      Great idea, assuming you don't plan to land the thing again afterwards.

    • by ras ( 84108 )

      if you want to increase the signature of the stealthy aircraft there are lots of easy ways

      You missed: open the weapons bay doors, which the F-35 has to do every 10 minutes or so [popularmechanics.com] if it wants to avoid cooking it's munitions. Quoting that link:

      • The F-35's weapons bay can overheat if if the plane is maintaining high speeds at an altitude of under 25,000 feet and an atmospheric temperature 90 F or greater. The trouble occurs if the plane's weapon day doors are closed for upwards of 10 minutes, and opening the bay doors negates the F-35s stealth capabilities.
  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @10:12AM (#52659829)

    With everything I’ve been reading lately, it sounds like the F-35 has just been a total bomb, inferior in every way to earlier planes, but for some reason I could never figure out, the air force was forced to buy them.

    Why is this the first I’m hearing that it has really good stealth?

    • by Rei ( 128717 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @10:53AM (#52660003) Homepage

      Because you've been reading sources focused on bashing the F-35? Which might explain the seemingly "inexplicable" interest by other parties who don't read exclusively efforts to bash it?

    • Well it's not really great since if it wants to take out the radar source it will have to open the weapons bay doors which will greatly increase the radar signature so that it will probably show up on radar. The article didn't mention anything about trying to attack the sources, just evading. The US may have the F-22 to take out SAM sites but other countries like Canada or Australia won't. And when it comes to encountering other aircraft it's going to be a disadvantage.

    • by Ecuador ( 740021 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @11:53AM (#52660291) Homepage

      All they are saying is that the F35 has very good stealth vs the US AA radar, which is a high frequency radar and that makes sense, since it was a big priority of the design. In fact, it was a priority over other aspects, so the F35 has many disadvantages. But yes, it has that advantage.
      Now, the problem is that Russia and China are building low frequency radars to which the F35 has no stealth capability. The difficulty is getting a good enough lock for weapons targeting - something that is thought to be hard with low frequency radars (i.e. you can see the F35 fine, but it exact location & vector are harder to get). If they succeed in making them good at targeting using low frequencies, then the F35 loses its main advantage and several disadvantages will start coming into play.
      Personally, I'd have thought the US would have already built radars that can "see" the F35, mainly to anticipate the others doing so, in order to prepare on facing them (perhaps tweaking the plane, or seeing the limits of low frequency radar technology, or developing strategies etc). But of course they wouldn't announce it, so this fluff piece would be published anyway.

      • by Aighearach ( 97333 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @02:24PM (#52660941)

        Low frequency radar has been around for a long time, and no there is no country using that instead of higher frequency radar.

        They use that in addition to. And the thing about actual low frequency radar; yes it can detect stealth technology at a higher rate than regular radar. But it doesn't give you a specific position. You're basically using an intermediate radar that is less like a combat radar, and more like a weather radar. It isn't new. In the ancient past they didn't both with that, because they cared mostly about getting an accurate reading to guide missiles. You don't guide missiles with low frequency radar. It is an early warning system, so that when none of your regular radar is showing anything, and something blows up, you know "was that an air attack, or a ground attack, or an accident, or what?" You want that extra tool when the enemy has stealth. You want the command center to be able to have the generals get in the bunker when the stealth bombers invade, even if you can't shoot at them.

        Different frequencies of radar have real, physical differences in what they can tell you. There isn't a magic anti-stealth beam yet, sorry kids.

  • Salesmanship (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sshir ( 623215 ) on Sunday August 07, 2016 @11:07AM (#52660063)
    Those planes were designed for low cross section at frequencies used by American AA systems. Remember, during last Winter Olympics, there were photos of Russians deploying their antiaircraft systems? And there was a weird, seemingly ancient rickety thing? That, my friends, is a modern long wavelength radar. That thing sees "stealth" planes just fine.
    • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

      Yes, longer-wavelength radars can indeed detect stealthy aircraft. Warships with sea-sweeping radars can often spot such aircraft. The problem is they can't hand off an accurate location and track to the anti-aircraft missile radars which need to be much higher frequency to determine the aircraft's position to within a few centimetres so they can actually hit it. Those missile system radars are what the stealth profiles and skin coatings are designed to be near-invisible to and they do that job very well. A

    • by OzPeter ( 195038 )

      ...That, my friends, is a modern long wavelength radar. That thing sees "stealth" planes just fine.

      You mean like was discussed here a while ago? Long-Wave Radar Can Take the Stealth From Stealth Technology [slashdot.org]

  • What we are not hearing about is the pilots had said it can't dogfight, just like the F4 Phantom.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by MFriis ( 4445501 )
      Seeing the F4 is still in service, Widely used up until the 90s, still holds several world records and supports a wide variety of mission types. I think we should be lucky if the F35 is anything like it. Neither were dogfigthers, but maybe neither deserves to be compared to an F-15. I am sure we can find many other things to critize that it actually claims to be good at. Denmark (where i am from) are replacing our fleet of F16's with the F35. I think were getting about 27. This is an odd choice since our
  • They would even think about flying F-35's in training missions without RCS enhancement. One heck of a gift to any adversary looking to probe/defeat US stealth advantage.

  • "What is your greatest weakness."

    "I am just too honest."

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