Florida Regulators OK Plan To Increase Toxins In Water (washingtontimes.com) 182
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Washington Times: Despite the objection of environmental groups, state environmental regulators voted Tuesday to approve new standards that will increase the amount of cancer-causing toxins allowed in Florida's rivers and streams under a plan the state says will protect more Floridians than current standards. The Environmental Regulation Commission voted 3-2 to approve a proposal that would increase the number of regulated chemicals from 54 to 92 allowed in rivers, streams and other sources of drinking water, news media outlets reported. The Miami Herald reports that under the proposal, acceptable levels of toxins will be increased for more than two dozen known carcinogens and decreased for 13 currently regulated chemicals. State officials back the plan because it places new rules on 39 other chemicals that are not currently regulated. The standards still must be reviewed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, but the Scott administration came under withering criticism for pushing the proposal at this time. That's because there are two vacancies on the commission, including one for a commissioner who is supposed to represent the environmental community.
Another day in paradise... SNAFU (Score:4, Insightful)
The bottled water industry will be pleased as drinkable tap becomes more scarce all over the US. This is just part of the process. Maintaining a clean water supply is too difficult and expensive. So instead of raising the price, which is totally unjustifiable anyway, it's far easier to let the quality slip.
Re:Another day in paradise... SNAFU (Score:5, Interesting)
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Tap water regulations are usually very strict.
But once you bottle the water it becomes food, and food can contain pretty much anything.
Regulations (Score:4, Informative)
Tap water regulations are usually very strict.
Unless you live in Flint Michigan...
But once you bottle the water it becomes food, and food can contain pretty much anything.
Not even remotely true [fda.gov] but thanks for trying. While there is (unfortunately) a lot of wiggle room, food production, marketing, and sales is actually pretty heavily regulated by the FDA and USDA among others.
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No, the regulations are still strict in Flint. It's just that they aren't being met there and in many other places.
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No, the regulations are still strict in Flint. It's just that they aren't being met there and in many other places.
You missed the invisible sarcasm tag...
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The issue in Flint wasn't the water coming from the plant, it was the pipes leading to/into/in the residences which contained the lead before many of the officials were even born. The release of that lead was exacerbated of course by the choice of water source, but putting all of the blame on the city/state officials is kind of like blaming a Meat packing plant for the failures of a third party trucker who's refrigeration unit failed. Their biggest failing was not investigating the complaints of residence
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Actually the issue was the water coming from the plant.
The failure was they wanted to save a few thousand dollars during the switch so they opted not to treat the water to prevent it from attacking and leaching lead from the pipes/fixtures.
This was not an unforeseen event or a mistake anyone could have made. They knew going in that corrosion would be an issue and that treatment would be required to prevent this and they decided not to.
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The Food regulation regime has largely been gutted and replaced by a voluntary privately run inspection regime where the food company hires the inspector. I believe the Republicans that were instrumental in repealing these regulations called them job killing.
There aren't enough agriculture department inspectors anymore to inspect even 1% of the food production factories in the US. There are slaughterhouses in the US that haven't had a government inspector inside them.
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Tap water regulations are usually very strict.
Yes, and this article shows how Florida is dealing with that very issue. They make up for tax cuts by lowering expectations.
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Heh, nowadays it's probably just tap water from Flint...
The thing is that as the quality of tap water goes down, people are going to buy bottled water even if it's only slightly "better". It's big business, and the industry is frequently allowed to draw millions of gallons from drought stricken areas [theguardian.com].
Re:Another day in paradise... SNAFU (Score:4, Interesting)
Bottled water is not as safe as you think it is.
Actually, Perrier has a bottling plant in ZephyrHills, Florida. The water bubbles up from fresh natural springs fed by the self-same aquifer that's fed from these newly-exempted water sources.
This same spring feeds the Hillsborough River, which serves as a primary water supply for Tampa. So if you live in the Big Cigar you could be paying premium prices for the same stuff that comes out of your tap.
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Bottled spring water is from a natural source, and will have things objective test equipment considers to be contaminants, incl
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I distill my water. The setup cost me $200. Power draw is something like $0.35 per gallon of pure water.
There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet about distilled water. Distilled water is water. It will NOT make you sick, or deplete minerals from your body, or alter your PH balance! If you are running a marathon, or fighting an illness, go for electrolyte-enhanced water. Otherwise, distilled is is the highest-quality water you can get!
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Re:Much bottled water is just tap. (Score:5, Funny)
It was nice of them to supply some Bud Light during an emergency.
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It was nice of them to supply some Bud Light during an emergency.
You're giving water a bad name by comparing it to Bud Light. That stuff ain't beer - it's what comes out of me AFTER I drink beer.
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Captain Redbeard Rum disagrees.
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The bottled water industry will be pleased as drinkable tap becomes more scarce all over the US. This is just part of the process. Maintaining a clean water supply is too difficult and expensive. So instead of raising the price, which is totally unjustifiable anyway, it's far easier to let the quality slip.
Wow. That was fast. Thanks for giving me campaign funding and laundered money sources to look for on him!
Heh
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Sorry dude, even though I already agree with your statement about tap water, your argument is an eyeroller. Railing on in every thread about "millenial snowflakes" pretty much makes you just sound like a nutter, which triggers the "ignore" reflex.
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Really? (Score:4, Funny)
missed opportuinity OP (Score:5, Insightful)
another serving of GREEN SLIME [google.com], please!
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Let's Get to Work (Score:3)
And their environment.
And their citizens health.
That doesn't even make sense from a business standpoint, let alone the benefit of society.
But hey, at least the right politicians are getting that sweet bribery, er, lobbying.
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Florida Tourism - worth 82 Billion dollars in 2014. [visitflorida.org]
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This.... (Score:2)
How About Some Actual Data... (Score:5, Insightful)
Without all of the data ("two dozen known carcinogens" in an unknown concentration), this could still be a net gain for Floridians. There are plenty of substances that the rest of the developed world believes to be inert in small doses, but that "are known to the state of California to cause cancer" at any dosage. If they are loosening the regulations on some substances using actual data to devise allowable limits, and again using actual data to further restrict those chemicals that are harmful, then perhaps this change is completely above the board, and inline with the best interest of the people. Drinkable water is a disappearing resource, so practical guidelines (do I need to mention using actual data again?), seems a prudent course of action, and this article doesn't provide enough information to determine if these changes are indeed practical or detrimental to consumers.
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People would rather panic about 0.000001mg of formaldehyde in their water than admit glyphosate is less-toxic than table salt.
Re:How About Some Actual Data... (Score:5, Informative)
https://science.slashdot.org/c... [slashdot.org]
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I spray Round-up on all my food. Don't you?
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I have the farmer do it for me...
Re:How About Some Actual Data... (Score:5, Insightful)
I came here to say the same thing. Let's see the data, not just the knee-jerk "chemicals are bad" screed. Spare us the fear-mongering.
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When those 100,000 people are dying of a horrible cancer, I'll make sure to send their families your address and let them know you voted to give them cancer because you were too cheap to pay for cleanup. "You attitude is dangerous and impractical". Those words are the reason the entire planet is polluted and dying. I would argue that you have the dangerous attitude.
The tone deafness of the parent posting this from a computer is delicious.
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"Nobody's talking about removing natural silica from water"
Yes, you do.
You ask for removing "Carcinogens cause cancer. Period. They should not be allowed into our water systems at any detectable level." Natural silica is a carcinogen, therefore it needs to be removed from your water systems at any detectable level.
Re:How About Some Actual Data... (Score:5, Funny)
Indeed. And the way some people waste it, you'd think it just falls out of the sky.
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Ain't no governor like a republican governor (Score:2, Insightful)
So it appears Scott is peaved at Governor Synder of Michigan for his taking the lead in poisoning the waters the citizens of his state have to drink and this is his efforts to win back that worst governor in the world award. Its a real battle this year between these guys, Brownback, and Walker, LePage, and just about every other southern governor but actually making people sick looks like a winning strategy, making bankrupting your state look old school.
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rofl @ "reporting on loosened regulations is a conspiracy/troll"
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rofl @ "reporting on loosened regulations is a conspiracy/troll"
That made me chuckle too. How DARE different news sources all report on a common topic?? IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!1! OMG CHEMTRAILS!
If "reporting on loosened regulations" is a "conspiracy", then it's also a conspiracy when my neighbors order the same kind of pizza as me. Or if they mow their lawn on the same day I do. IT'S SO OBVIOUS, WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!!!
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Yes, just like reporting that CO2's long-known property of absorbing UV radiation at certain wavelengths and then re-emitting it as IR, thus trapping energy (heat) in the lower atmosphere is somehow an attack on conservative values.
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So we aren't supposed to believe the "liberal media" and trust the oh so fair and balanced reporting of the two websites you quoted? I could just as easily say that the articles quoted are "not journalism, it is storytelling designed to advance a (right)-wing agenda". Sorry but I won't go so far as to say that they are "packaged as facts" but will admit they are still "nothing but politics".
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If you don't like the lapdog media, go to Twitter and Facebook. I'm sure you will find a few people that share your point of view and deliver the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Who paid for the increases? (Score:4, Interesting)
It is a big shame proper investigative journalism is disappearing, it would be interesting to know which companies that release the toxins whose increased concentration are allowed made contributions to the politicians involved.
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anti-science environmentalists (Score:2, Insightful)
The Monte Carlo method [wikipedia.org] is an extremely widely used, proven technique for solving complex optimization and estimation problems. For an environmentalist to make fun of the method like this simply means he is a Luddite with no understanding of science.
As for the raising of limits, without looking at the studies, it's hard to know for sur
Re:anti-science environmentalists (Score:5, Informative)
Did you read this bit of TFA?
I don't think they're talking about the same thing.
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Another article [tallahassee.com] makes it sound like it was an actual Monte Carlo method:
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Did you read on?
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Why do we have to pick one or the other? Greenie weenies are both scientifically ignorant AND dishonest.
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Unfortunately yes, and it gets worse:
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The Monte Carlo is also a famous casino, and not some kind of mathy casino where everyone employs the Monte Carlo method to win at gambling either. (The method was code-named after the casino, though, but being a code name it explicitly had no connection to the content of the method).
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Actually, it's thoroughly impossible to tell how the new standards work based upon by the linked articles, but it sounds like in plain language that Florida is using a computer model that could allow more flexibility in discharge permitting. This can lead to better results, whether your definition of better is "more rationally defensible" or "more in line with what my donors want." Determining which way it is better requires review by a competent expert. It might be both.
The real issue here is this phras
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No, the real issue is that the environmentalist has already proven to be an anti-science moron, so nothing that he says is relevant. If you want to know what the model actually is, you have to look at it.
Ignoring... (Score:2)
...of course, the fact that EPA limits are still the guideline.
Lower state requirements mean pretty much nothing if the EPA doesn't specifically allow it. And they won't, no matter how much fearmongering some people use.
CHEMICALS!! AAAHH! (Score:5, Informative)
The linked talks about benzene a bunch. The proposed lowers the limit for Class III (recreation water) and increases it from 1.18ug/L to 2 ug/L for Class I (Drinking water). EPA limit for drinking water is 5 ug/L, for reference.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/water/wqssp/classes.htm
https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/table-regulated-drinking-water-contaminants#one
https://depnewsroom.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/hhc-criterion-comparison.pdf
Correction: (Score:3, Informative)
"Are you're saying you haven't stopped?" (Score:3)
Florida Regulators OK Plan To Increase Toxins In Water
Under the proposal, acceptable levels of toxins will be increased for more than two dozen known carcinogens and decreased for 13 currently regulated chemicals. State officials back the plan because it places new rules on 39 other chemicals that are not currently regulated.
I believe that Florida is our most naturally toxic state, and of course politicians are always terrible. But just based on the brief description in the linked article, I don't think that this particular policy change deserves to be characterized as "Florida officials vote to poison everyone." It sounds like it actually might be a net gain for environmental safety, though of course without exact data on the chemicals involved and their acceptable concentration before and after, it's hard to say.
What I want to know is, when did these officials stop beating their wives?
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Have you never heard of Washington DC?
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Why does it have to be a net gain? There seems no logical reason that I can fathom that you have to increase dumping toxins of one type in order to decrease dumping other toxins. Decrease them all. How much toxin do you think should be acceptable in the water you drink?
The real question is, how much expense and trouble are we willing to go to to remove these toxins from the water we drink?
For me, the answer depends on how toxic the toxins are. There are "toxins" everywhere in the environment. You're inhaling thousands of "toxins" right now. You aren't dead from them, and won't likely ever even get sick from them, because the concentrations are too low. Some of them come from "dumping", sure, but some are older than humanity, so even if everybody agrees not to pollute
Well, this will increase Alex Jones' funding. (Score:2)
Seller of the Big Burke and the Alexa Pure.
If it gives us another Young Turks encounter it could totally be worth it...
SubjectsInCommentsAreStupidCauseTheSubjectIsTFA (Score:2)
No, seriously, i want to know who lobbied for this and who will benefit from this.
DoYouReallyNeedToKeepPointingThisOut? LeaveItBlank (Score:2)
string them up
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Yep, that's bullshit.
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You could put a single hyphen up there, ya big crybaby.
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In theory I agree but that's not how those things work.
Here's a link to the commission, note that every member represents some constituency: http://www.dep.state.fl.us/leg... [state.fl.us]
The two missing constituencies (local government and environmental community) are the two I would think are the most important for an environmental regulatory commission.
If you could somehow ensure that the other 6 people were selected based on their credentials then it makes perfect sense that the 7th should as well but it seems unreas
They forgot the spin (Score:3)
So many chemicals (Score:4, Insightful)
This can only be a good thing. (Score:3)
We'll get an economic boost from this. I mean, yes, it'll increase the incidence of cancer, but with something like cancer, there's no real way to trace back exactly why any one individual got cancer, and even if that could be done, there's no way of knowing which company released the particular chemical that caused the cancer, because a lot of different companies will be doing it. And if everyone's responsible, no one is.
To parahrase Nelson from the Simpsons, it's a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark!
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It's sad when I can say something like that, and there are other people out there who are such raging asshats that there's some question as to whether I'm actually one of them.
But yes, I'm being sarcastic.
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It's sad when I can say something like that, and there are other people out there who are such raging asshats that there's some question as to whether I'm actually one of them.
Welcome to the club. It is a very large club, but there's always room.
That sound wrong (Score:2)
politics (Score:2)
acceptable levels of toxins will be increased for more than two dozen known carcinogens and decreased for 13 currently regulated chemicals. State officials back the plan because it places new rules on 39 other chemicals that are not currently regulated.
I guess leaving the other ones alone and regulating those 39 was too logical of a step to take.
The spin is strong (Score:2)
When revising a list of dozens of chemical limits, some are going to go up, and some are going to go down, and some are added. Overall, there's more chemicals being regulated. It's not clear from TFA that there is anything wrong. There is no expert analysis given in the story.
DHMO (Score:2)
Meanwhile... (Score:2)
They are also considering raising the sales tax 0.5% to clean the toxic waste out of the lagoons. The left hand doesn't know what the fracking right hand is doing!
Well ... (Score:2)
They should bottle water from Flint ... (Score:1)
You Mean (Score:2)
yes but (Score:2)
not a problem (Score:2)
Filtered water (Score:2)
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De-ionized water EXISTS ONLY IN A LAB. Water self ionizes. If you do not take steps to keep water de-ionized, you will not have de-ionized water. You have NEVER, EVER had de-ionized water coming from your tap or in a water bottle. And you're a fool if you're drinking water at the lab. Pure water, with extraneous Na+, K+, Ca2+ etc ions removed, is PERFECTLY SAFE to drink, provided you don't drink enough that you dilute the ions in your body to a dangerous level.
Please try to at least learn something about
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I heard it contains Dihydrogen Monoxide and Hydroxylic acid.
And what's worse, you can't get away from them - those are both found as contaminants in beer!
Re:Water itself is toxic (Score:5, Funny)
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Yes, it's full of hydrogen which is very flammable and explosive in comfined spaces. The oxygen helps it burn too.
Don't understate it. Liquid hydrogen and oxygen were what was used to get the space shuttle to orbit. We're talking about liquid water here, so basically rocket fuel.
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I really wish all of you millennial snowflakes would just go die in a fire.
SMOD2016 plans to make that happen in the upcoming Global mass-extinction event [twitter.com]
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Under a REPUBLICAN governor who just barely weaseled out of a lengthy criminal prosecution.
Partisan knee-jerk Idiot.
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Well Hello Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
Politics is a slimy practice, regardless of party affiliation (or non-affiliation). Throwing around accusations (real or imagined) is done for both fun and profit in that business. Best you don't get sucked into the partisan rhetoric or take it too seriously because most of it is trumped up hyperbole designed to get an emotional response to keep existing or develop new voters.
Huh? Not even close (Score:2)
Basically, nations are cheating when they can.