Protesters Block Effort To Restart Work On Controversial Hawaii Telescope 305
sciencehabit writes: An attempt to restart construction on what would be one of the world's largest telescopes was blocked yesterday, after state authorities escorting construction vehicles clashed with protesters blockading the road to the summit of Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano. Officers from Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR), and construction workers for the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT), turned back from the summit shortly after noon Wednesday, citing concerns for public safety after finding the road blocked by boulders. The withdrawal followed several hours of clashes with Native Hawaiian protesters blockading the road, culminating in the arrests of 11 men and women, including several protest organizers. The protesters have said the $1.4 billion TMT would desecrate sacred land.
In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
$Bignum will appease the gods.
Re:In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a little sad to see people fighting so hard for the cause of ignorance... not that it's so rare, I guess. It's almost more depressing if you consider that some of them are probably sincere, instead of simply wanting either payola or publicity.
Re: In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
They are fighting for their land, sovereignty, and culture. It's all being stripped from them day in and day out. Not 500 years ago, still today.
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Now they know how Southerners feel.
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Except the Hawaiians aren't a bunch of willfully ignorant racists, unlike the dumbfuckers you're referring to. Protip: you're as free today as you were last month to fly a symbol of oppression and chattel slavery, even if your state government isn't doing it for you.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't understand why you're writing that in a pseudo-Ebonics dialect? Many of the dialectic features you've toss out there are really primary features of AAVE, not so much SVE (though there is of course overlap).
I've got to say, if your goal is to make Southerns--even those of us whose families are transplants, who don't fly the confederate flag, and who don't have an accent--want to stand up for southern culture--mission accomplished! And no, being a fan of southern culture does not mean you love slavery
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Why do you assume that just because I did a poor job at imitating a Southern accent that it was "ebonics?" Frankly, I was trying to use the character Huckleberry Finn's dad as a reference, and apparently mixed things up *shrug*.
And why would making fun of someone crying that one state government won't be flying the symbol of those who committed treason in defense of chattel slavery cause you to support said crybaby? I, personally, think that the retailers have gone overboard. I would love for every ignorant
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States (Score:3)
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
http://www.civilwar.org/educat... [civilwar.org]
The specific primary issue was whether or not slavery would be prohibited in new territories when they became states, changing the balance of power between slave-holding and non slave-holding states. Prior to the election of Lincoln, the balance was maintained by inducting one non slave-holding state and one slave-holding state at the same time (paired statehood grants).
The South was not fearful of the existing slave states losing
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Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was in fact a punitive action relative to the secessionists only, and only applied to the ten states then currently in rebellion. It is widely regarded as the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back", and was issued under the president's war powers, and thus necessarily excluded those areas not in rebellion.
You gotta explain how the ""straw that broke the camel's back"" occurred in the third year of the war.
Re: In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
They're opposing the building of a modern institution of science and learning for the sake of "sacred land". I can't think of a better way to describe this than "ignorance". Or, they could admit this is a political issue of the separatist movement, and not really a cultural one.
The Hawaiians had their nation stolen from them about five generations ago. US citizens overthrew the Hawaiian constitutional monarchy, then the US annexed the territory. I feel bad about, and even the US government has apologized at this point. Yes, I have some sympathy with those who feel disaffected because of this, but after five generations... sorry, we're not going to hand the state back to the native Hawaiians.
Re: In other words (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that, the native Hawaiians, and even those of mixed ancestry, constitute a small minority of the state population (5.9% according to the 2010 census).
So it's OK to fuck people over because you moved in on their land and made them a minority? MIGHT MAKES RIGHT RAH RAH RAH!
Do they deserve considerations because their ancestors got screwed over? Yes, absolutely.
Make up your fucking mind.
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I imagine that even many atheists may be upset if, for example, the grave of a family member were dug up because someone wanted to build a power plant or casino or parking lot. Same deal. It's not ignorance - it's an important place to them and they don't want something built there.
Not as many as you might think. Old organic material is just that.
Re: In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
They are fighting for their land, sovereignty, and culture.
Their land? I was unaware that land could be racially owned, I'm sure that xenophobic nutjobs around the world will be overjoyed to hear that. I have French genetics in me; does that mean I can tell a Frenchman of Nigerian descent what they can and can't do with 'my' land because he is not of the native ethnicity?
And sovereignty? Sovereignty is derived form the will of the people, not genetic happenstance. If people want to claim that Hawai'i should declare independence, they're free to do it. I don't see that though, I see a push for race based nationalism, and that's always a bad thing.
It's all being stripped from them day in and day out. Not 500 years ago, still today.
Bad shit happened in the past, and that was wrong, but you know what? Two wrongs don't make a right. The villains and victims are dead. And even if we do accept that point of view, what the hell does that have to do with a telescope? And furthermore who, exactly, is going around stealing the land of Hawaiian people and preventing people from freely expressing Hawaiian culture? Because you should report them to the police.
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Their land? I was unaware that land could be racially owned,
Lawyers have demanded that Europe must be returned to it's rightful owners - the Neanderthals, Britain to the druids, and North America to the small camel like creatures who once lived there.
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That's like fighting to ensure your kids believe the same thing you do. With violence. The same argument is made when Christian folks bemoan the lack of church attendance. You don't have a right to force your meme's down everyone's throat, but that's what 'defending culture' means. It means you want the guarantee that your children will believe the same thing you do by removing dissenting beliefs. It's bull
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I respect the beliefs of people, even if I myself do not hold them. For example, I will respect the Islamic principle of abstaining from alcohol, even if I myself do not hold that view. However, if someone tries to stop me from drinking a beer on that basis, then we have a problem.
Some people feel that the Mauna is sacred, and you know what, I agree with them. It is a sacred place, and it should be treated with respect. However, it does not follow that building this telescope, which has been positioned
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There is that risk that the effects of a black hole could be amplified through a telescope optic potentially sucking the viewer right through the optic so no one would be around to warn anyone. Building this would certainly anger the volcano gods potentially triggering an occult anarchy situation. All hell would break loose starting a tsunami that takes out the entire pacific rim before sucking half the earth through the optic.
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It's not just about money; it's largely about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. There are people who believe that the State of Hawai'i is not a US state, but rather an occupied kingdom, and that the islands should become an independent Kingdom of Hawai'i again. They are using this to draw attention to themselves. Not that holding science hostage for the petty power struggles and race based nationalism make makes it any better, in fact, I would find it less distasteful to deal with appeals to religion o
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In the old days they used to be able to pay off some local leaders to make the resistance go away. Now, they're absolutely bending over backwards, funding education initiatives, etc, and the protestors won't go away. Why? Two reasons. First, they made the mistake of breaking ground on a day that drew more attention because the activists were also doing something that day. Second, with Twitter and the internet the True Believers don't need local leaders to stir them up and connect them, they can do it themselves.
Basically, they're trying to placate a bunch of implacable Luddites and Fanatics who won't be placated. Nothing but complete surrender or martyrdom will satisfy them.
It's infuriating.
Luddites? Maybe they need more apps.
Irony (Score:5, Interesting)
They block the very thing that would likely keep the area underdeveloped. I think it likely they actually want more development and more money.
Re: Irony (Score:3)
That was a rationale used the build the first dozen observatories.
Re:Irony (Score:4, Insightful)
You say that like it's the first time religion tries to keep the people stupid and ignorant for its own gains.
Sacred cows (Score:3, Insightful)
make the best hamburger.
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People make the best Soylent Green.
What is more sacred... (Score:2)
Then a telescope?
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A grammar book.
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Some errors are more common among native speakers than foreigners.
Road blocked by boulders (Score:3)
But ... those are sacred boulders! They shouldn't be rolling them around willy-nilly across white man's roads. If the natives aren't going to respect every last little part of Mauna Kea, then why should we?
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These are the same people who cared so little they brought invasive ants [staradvertiser.com] up with them; I can't say disturbing the site surprises me.
A better compromise (Score:4, Interesting)
The governor of Hawaii tried a compromise where they would decomission 4 old telescopes, to be able to build this new one.
It was rejected.
My suggestion is, ante up on the compromise. Promise to build the new one on the site of one of the old ones. In other words, don't create any more development on undeveloped land, which seems to be a big part of the what the protestors object to.
Re:A better compromise (Score:5, Informative)
My suggestion is, ante up on the compromise. Promise to build the new one on the site of one of the old ones.
Nobody would accept that compromise. The protesters don't really care if the telescope is built, they just want a payoff. Any compromise that does not include some cash, is not going to be accepted. They should have paid off these groups at the beginning of the process, not when they are ready to start construction. It would have been much cheaper.
.
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Another compromise.
The Telescope goes up, but the Washington Monument gets bulldozed, or perhaps the Salt Lake Temple, or the Statue of Liberty. If not just US things then perhaps the Vatican, Ankor Wat, or other religious icons.
Wait.... what is that..... it makes a difference when the things YOU value are under attack.
Makes no difference to me. I'd love to see the Statue of Liberty shipped off from New Jersey (because it's truly in New Jersey) back to Frnace.
I'd be delighted to see Mount Rushmore obliterated back to a boring old rock. We don't need fucking pointless structures and monuments to stupid shit.
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People like symbols. Erecting symbols is an easy way for a politician to win some votes with a targeted demographic. It shows he is on their side, but doesn't have to involve actually doing anything with a practical impact.
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You know what's sacriligious? Demolishing the beautiful old home down the road of here, in which 5 gener
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Nonsensical comparison, as a superiority of the Hawaiian population did not vote to be incorporated into the United States. And there was no illegal coup backed by the U.S. against the democratically elected government of Hawaii.
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Of course it wasn't Russia's "acquisition" of Crimea was perfectly legal. It belonged to Russia already. The separation from Russia was illegal.
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This. BTW, Russia didn't exactly acquire Crimea, the Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia in March last year. The split from Russia and transfer of the territory to Ukraine occurred in 1954(?) under Kruschev. Basically from that point it became an annex under treaty, having been under Russian control for at least three hundred years previous to that.
Byline from The Guardian: "16 Mar 2014 - Crimea voted to secede from Ukraine in a referendum that most of the world has condemned as illegal.".
A little late to complain (Score:5, Insightful)
There are over a dozen telescopes at the same site where they intend to build the TMT, some of which have been there since the late 60s. Their complaints that their "most sacred site will be desecrated" seem to be a bit late. I think there has already been an agreement to remove quite a few of the current telescopes to revert a significant portion of the site to a more natural state. There is another larger mountain on the same island, something tells me if they began building telescopes on that mountain it would suddenly become a "most sacred site". This to me smells much more like a NIMBY group using vague religious/cultural references to try to get there way.
Re: A little late to complain (Score:2)
Actually, the Hawaiians have been protesting the telescopes since the 60's. And Kaho'olawe bring blown apart too.
Just because you haven't heard about the protests, doesn't mean they aren't happening.
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Mauna Loa is over ten times the size of Mauna Kea. Kea is only higher by 107 feet, as measured from its base in the Hawaiian Trough. Loa is 9700 cubic miles of stretched shield volcano, while Kea is only 770 cubic miles.
Politicising science for profit (Score:2)
should be fucking outlawed.
I REALLY want to go off on a rant here, but I think that sums it up pretty well. I'm fucking sick of the NIMBY crowd, I bet they don't even live in sight of the mountain.
Re: Politicising science for profit (Score:2)
You can not live on this island, without seeing this mountain. It's visible from everywhere.
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what, even from the far slope of the *other mountain*?
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For example, from Kau Forest Reserve?
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Rant away. What the fuck else is Slashdot for?
loud vocal minority (Score:4, Informative)
That sad thing is this isn't even all native Hawaiians or even a majority. It's just a small minority of extremely loud native Hawaiians. Plenty of native Hawaiians have no problem with the observatories and actually want them built
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look at the ruling that took place today or amazon and wallmarts decision to stop selling a flag (while still selling other items that represent hate)
the louder you are, the more power you have, even if you make up a rounding error worth of a percentage
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the louder you are, the more power you have, even if you make up a rounding error worth of a percentage
Welcome to the world. You don't get a manual, but you do get a bunch of pithy sayings, like "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". However, you also get "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down"
At some point, you may become angry enough about something to stand up and shout, too. Will you get greased, or hammered?
Let a D-9 Cat and two fire engines lead the parade (Score:2, Insightful)
The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
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The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
The scoops are coming. The scoops are coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
The protesters complaints are NUTS!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
The protesters are claiming things like pollution from the telescope will kill fish in Hilo bay. WTF? You can't even sneeze on the MK summit w/o a permit. All the facilities up there get regular inspections, and can get in trouble for even a wayward piece of trash. Construction vehicles must be parked on plastic to catch oil drips. Not so on the rest of the island. Hell, when they change the oil in cars around here, they just dump the oil on the ground. They don't give a damn. Yet they'll claim the telescopes are killing fish half way across the island? They claim it's a watershed, yet the site's chosen b/c of 300 days/year of clear skies, and how dry it is?
Hmph. Nutcases.
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Next range over has Kitt Peak Observatory, which is ugly and destroys the natural mountain's ridge line.
When I saw the telescopes on Maunakea a while back I didn't think that at all. It took nothing away from the beauty of the Mauna. If all you can focus on are percived flaws, and not the beauty of the whole, maybe you're the one with the problem. At any rate, good thing we live in a society where aesthetics and legality are separate.
Just say no to earth-bound observatories. Put 'em in space. I bet the scientists would like that too.
I'm sure they would. Do you have any idea at all how insanely much that would cost? The Hubble Space Telescope has a 2.4-meter mirror and cost $10 billion. This one is has
The Dothraki are against the TMT (Score:2)
Seriously, You don't want to mess with Khal Drogo!
helocopters (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in california where we always have some group of hairy drugged out morons protesting something. And the construction companies out here just expect it.
They plan for it... they say"well, we need this much cement, this many men, so many machine... and oh yeah, bolt cutters and an overtime budget to bring people in at midnight to do the job when all the hippies are sleeping.
The college campuses for example can't knock down trees on the premises during the school year. So they wait until the summer break then knock the trees back. The hippies come back and possibly see a stump. No discussion. No protest of consequence.
In Canada they had a bridge that needed to be widened. And some trees to the right of the bridge needed to be taken down. Of course the fucking trees were swarming with dreadlocked buffoons. So the city said "you win, we won't take the trees down, everyone go home"... hippies cleared out... and at midnight that very night the city just cut all the trees down that were in the way of the bridge.
And this is what the social discussion is at this point.
The stupid mountain in question is covered with fucking telescopes. Go up there and look at it. There are loads. Saying "oh not one more or it will anger our impotent god!'... please.
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Trees? That's nothing. In Chicago they bulldoze entire airfields at night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field [wikipedia.org]
If you want an omelette...
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But only when "da mare" wants it!
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I live in california where we always have some group of hairy drugged out morons protesting something. And the construction companies out here just expect it.
They plan for it... they say"well, we need this much cement, this many men, so many machine... and oh yeah, bolt cutters and an overtime budget to bring people in at midnight to do the job when all the hippies are sleeping.
The college campuses for example can't knock down trees on the premises during the school year. So they wait until the summer break then knock the trees back. The hippies come back and possibly see a stump. No discussion. No protest of consequence.
In Canada they had a bridge that needed to be widened. And some trees to the right of the bridge needed to be taken down. Of course the fucking trees were swarming with dreadlocked buffoons. So the city said "you win, we won't take the trees down, everyone go home"... hippies cleared out... and at midnight that very night the city just cut all the trees down that were in the way of the bridge.
And this is what the social discussion is at this point.
The stupid mountain in question is covered with fucking telescopes. Go up there and look at it. There are loads. Saying "oh not one more or it will anger our impotent god!'... please.
Your argument is flawed. First you use the word "hippies" in a derogatory way to evoke emotion. This is demonstrated by your entire post. So, from the start I can see your argument is on weak ground -- if the argument was solid you would not need to resort to such tactics.
In the case of the Canadian government lying to get the protesters away... yeah, great example. At least the so called (in your words) "hippies" have seemed to have some ethics and morals! The Canadian government in your example: they were
Re:helocopters (Score:5, Interesting)
Shut up.
This is what the telescopes look like:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/w... [wikimedia.org]
You can't even see them unless you squint and they blend in with the snow mostly. So I don't know what you're talking about.
They only become obvious when you're getting close to them. And there's no reason to do that in Hawaii. The islands are f'ing paradise. Why would anyone want to climb the frozen lava rock that is so high the oxygen gets low? What exactly is the point?
I can understand the astronomers going up there. I do not understand why anyone else is going up there. Possibly some crazy people that want to ski? I don't know. That's about it. Its ugly up there... because its just bare lava rock and snow. That's it.
Seriously... why do you think the telescopes are bad. I mean... actually? Did an astronomer fuck your sister? Because it can't possibly be what you said.
Look at that picture I posted. That is what the telescopes look like from off the mountain. You can't even see them really. And they don't look bad even when you do. Your comment makes zero sense.
Unless you give me a more concrete reason... I am assuming there was a dramatic love affair between one of your relatives and an astronomer and you have some misplaced aggression on the issue. That's all I've got unless you want to tell me why you ACTUALLY don't like the telescopes.
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It angers me, because those telescopes are ugly and ruin the natural landscape.
You should see what my natural landscape looks like now - much different than 5 years ago.
To the South are many hills that wind whips over, this is a windy area. For as far as they eye can see the very top of each hill is covered with equally spaced wind turbines - so you get to see the turbine in it's entirety . To a town (Walla Walla) the turbines follow the highway and they go on forever, I'm sure there's an end but I haven't seen one. Photo from Google Earth http://www.panoramio.com/photo... [panoramio.com]
Further insu
Basically "let's act like asshole children" (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay. We've sued and lost.
We've sued again and lost.
We've appealed to every political figure available and lost.
We've tossed up every roadblock imaginable and lost.
So now, despite what the law says and the fact that it's obvious other people want this, we're still going to interfere and be assholes because we didn't get our way.
At this point, I'm with the social darwinists. Just roll over the fuckers. You'll be doing the species good by ridding it of obvious mental defectives.
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Note the huge error, the denial of those persons, their culture and their heritage "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture". This repeated denial of equal existence by Immigrants that stole the land but deny the people. It is not "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture", a denial that they are American, it is "sacred sites in Hawaiian American, religion and culture". They are meant to be Americans, their culture and religion are mean to be American culture and religion and not somehow be publicly defined as be foreign and those people are being foreigners. This is repeated again and again in immigrant dominated societies, the complete denial of those original inhabitants as being real citizens, they are foreigners in the own land, who hold foreign non-Immigrant cultures and beliefs and whose history is not Immigrant America, it is foreign to Immigrant America but the immigrant capitalists of course still want that land whilst they was want to denying the people and who those people are. Hawaii culture and religion is 'American' culture and religion and you are horribly racist and prejudiced if you believe any different (one element of it, of course, not the totality of American culture and religion). They are meant to be Americans and hence their culture and religion are meant to be American and not denied by immigrants as being somehow foreign to those immigrants and thus denied in a country now predominately occupied and controlled by foreign immigrants.
Hawaiians are Polynesian; ethnically, culturally, linguistically... Long before they were Ameican. No reason why they should deny that heritage in order to conform to your definition of 'American'. That word is already quite well defined.
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Scientists would love to go to the moon, build a telescope, and use it there.
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Exactly. Win-win. Give the scientists the funds to do it; have the Fed finance it with created money. It's in the General Welfare, why would it cause inflation?
Re:Glaing Error (Score:5, Insightful)
You have an interesting viewpoint. I (too?) live in Hawai`i and I can agree with some of it.
But one thing often said here by those in favor of continuing with the TMT is that the ancient Hawaiians themselves, as master celestial navigators, would have readily embraced something that advanced scientific knowledge. Is the idea of the TMT out of line with Hawaiian spiritual practice? As I understand it, not at all.
There are already about a dozen telescopes atop the mountain. Will one more desecrate the `aina (land) so much more? I'm not qualified to answer that, but it's hard to believe that it's such a make-or-break issue.
Fundamentally, it isn't the telescope or the `aina or spiritual practices that make up the issue. Instead, it seem that it's about an indigenous people resenting the very real slights and persecutions of the past and projecting them into the present; it's also about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. But in today's Hawai`i, it is most certainly not the haole (general meaning today of Caucasian, though that's not really what the word means) who rules and runs the show.
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Tautologies are neat that way. Ancient Greeks were great at mathematics...so modern day residents of Athens shouldn't complain if a nuclear power plant is built on the Parthenon! To suppl
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you're comparing an ancient manmade structure to a fucking volcano?? How does that work again?
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You're not alone in those observations. People say it is against Hawaiian culture and/or religion, but they never explain how or give any historical basis, and it seems like you're just not supposed to ask if you're not 'local.' I think it is funny that this protest really kicked up during the last Merrie Monarch festival, named for King David Kalkaua, who supported astronomy in Hawai'i. It really reeks of the whole 'there are parts of the Bible I like and parts I don't like' kind of hypocrisy that some
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Re:Glaing Error (Score:5, Informative)
The protesters call themselves kanaka, the working class of precolonial Hawaii. Did you know that in that culture only the ali'i, the hereditary nobility, were permitted to go above the treeline on Mauna Kea? Thus by the laws of their own culture, the protesters at the 9,000 ft level, are there illegally.
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awesome. So the police should know who to arrest, and just go do it already.
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They're not preserving nature with this act. Nature will be just fine even after the construction. This is just as it has always been - an excuse to get paid off.
Re: Glaing Error (Score:2)
American culture certainly does not have any respect for... protesters stopping working-class people from doing what they are paid to do.
For a disturbingly large part of American culture, that isn't true. See: Occupy Wall Street.
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So you had to walk uphill in the snow both ways to and from school, so everyone else has to too?
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It isn't any more sacred than a church is. The people doing this protesting are no better than those who would block laws being passed in a country because they didn't go in line with their religion.
Never underestimate the religion of a group of people, it's very important to them and nothing you can say will sway them. It drives their life and tells them what happens after they die, all their questions are answered in bliss and eternity. The Alaskan Aleut believe when they die they come back reincarnated as animals (a friend of mine, an Aleut does expect this). An example of how different it is from your own beliefs.
How many have claimed we screwed the Indians. The Spanish conquest of central America
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Re: It's not sacred (Score:5, Funny)
I worship giant mirrors, you insensitive clod!
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You won the internet today.
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Most people worship a god that is just a reflection of themselves. You've just found a more direct route.
If my church were being torn down for a telescope (Score:5, Informative)
If my church were being torn down for a telescope, I would of course protest.
However, I would protest when they were first tearing it down in 1967, and not wait until 37 years later, in 2004, to start protesting.
They've only been protesting about how holy the site is since about 2004. When it benefitted them in ways other than piety for them to do so. This is about trying to garner international attention for the monarchist movement in Hawaii, who would like to bring back the Kingdom of Hawaii, and are still pissed off about the deposition of Queen Liliuokalani, and the effective annexation of Hawaii in 1893.
Protesting a telescope gets media attention, even though there are already 13 telescopes on the site, operated by 11 nations, and they are in fact already the largest astronomical observatory on the planet. The only thing new about this one is that it was easier to latch onto the media attention, since the telescope in question was going to be very large, and was therefore already getting media attention.
Of course, assuming this was granted (thus setting the precedent for all non extinct indian nations to reclaim their lands within the U.S. as well), there would immediately be internecine warfare as to *who*, of the 10 groups claiming to have the "rightful" king or queen among their members, got to be the "official" one.
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: Corrected headline (Score:5, Insightful)
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And guns protect scientific truths? If my gun is bigger than yours, you have to believe in what I say? Poppycock. We are mere stewards of the land, and the native americans were better stewards.
Re: Corrected headline (Score:4, Informative)
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If the native americans had invented mass-production and industrial machinery first, they would have been just as destructive.
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So who gave the observatory the land? Your christian God?
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Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States.
You birther's are simply not going to go away, are ya?
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That's a bad argument. The US says they annexed Hawaii and built military bases there. Nobody stopped them. Ergo, Hawaii is part of the US.
Russia says they annexed Crimea (with a popular vote even [allegedly]) and built military bases there (technically already had military bases there). Nobody stopped them. Ergo, the Crimea is part of Russia.
Actually, the Russian claim to the Crimea goes back far longer and probably has more substance.
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Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States. This may sound preposterous but it has been reported on. Essentially the United States to control of Hawaii in the same way that Russia took control of Crimea.
Almost, usually it's the last line in the article you read, it was annexed to stop the depression cheaper sugar caused.
Around 1893 "Without Presidential approval, marines stormed the islands, and the American minister to the islands raised the stars and stripes in Honolulu. The Queen was forced to abdicate, and the matter was left for Washington politicians to settle. "
"Hawaii remained a territory until granted statehood as the fiftieth state in 1959."
First hit, they are all the same http://www.ushistory.or [ushistory.org]
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Let's turn every fern into a no trespassing sign. Privatize photosynthesis!
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Why not just smoke a peace pipe with them? Those bulldozers cause a lot of damage. Scientists need to mellow out, get high more, look at the heavens from a more spiritual point of view. Fuck the observatory. Just go camping, get back in balance with nature.
Re:Par for the course for religion (Score:4, Interesting)
What law gives the government the right to destroy sacred land?
From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]
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What law gives the government the right to destroy sacred land?
I had to study law just enough to survive, and did rather well, I came across a statement I can't remember in it's entirety (I'm old and can get away with it) but there are two things law can't make you do, one is to decide who you are to marry, and one other I just can't come up with. and the first one is debatable.
Three cities make up here, Lewis and Clark passed this way (You could walk on the backs of Salmon to cross the river), any island you dig on your most likely going to hit Indian artifacts, The K
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except Hawai'i isn't at a plate boundary, in fact it's two thusand miles from the nearest one: this is pure volcanism, Hawai'i is riding a mantle plume which is currently 25 miles to the South East of Loa, under the Loihi sea mount.
Citation: Jackson et. al., 1972
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Oh, and the chain actually starts in the Aleutian group, several thousand miles to the North.
Re:What a lot of horse?shit (Score:4, Insightful)
You really are a monumentally stupid cunt, aren't you?
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Find out what person or group benefits from this charade and eliminate their incentive to protest the telescope. Debunk the mystical nonsense that they use to indoctrinate their followers. In most (all?) cases the followers are motivated by fear, and the leaders are experts at exploiting that. Empower these ignorant people to understand the real world, which may not be quite as scary as they think.
And why the first thing the Americas did were to send Christian missionaries everywhere to educate the heathens (one must know of god before being allowed into heaven - the key). The Spaniards sent Catholic missionaries, who had the backing of the pope and power, (Why in South America to this day east of a latitude one speaks Portuguese to the west Spanish, all to end a squabble.
All sent to debunk existing thinking, and to what was the truth (to most), but it's a timely process. Christians practice peace
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Custer surely would have never ever gotten that far. It takes a telescope to rile them up. Blankets? Do they need blankets?
Depends upon how far back you wish to go.
Hawaii was found by Polynesians who's DNA has proven them the discovers of America, I figure Columbus was the last person to of set foot on it's shore, yet gets all the credit.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matte... [mnn.com]
From South America they migrated along it's coast, to Central America, and spread out into North America, becoming the Indians we know today.
This still agrees with the land bridge theory, yet A Clovis point was found to be allegedly older than possible by a land