Mauna Kea Telescope Construction Slated To Resume 65
After an earlier halt to the work of constructing the "world's most advanced and powerful telescope" (and
subsequent loss of support from an organization acting on behalf of native Hawaiians,) the Thirty Meter Telescope is again in "on again" mode. From the Associated Press article as carried by U.S. News & World Report:
The Mauna Kea site provides a clear view of the sky for 300 days a year, with little air and light pollution.
The telescope project was developed as a collaboration between U.S. and Canada universities and the national institutes of Japan, China and India.
Gov. David Ige in April said the Thirty Meter Telescope board is legally entitled to "use its discretion to proceed with construction." He said he respected the rights of protesters to appeal in court.
Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Interesting)
Those main reason 'natives' objected to the construction of the telescope not because of the sacredness of the mount Kea but the lack of a certain incentive --- namely, $$$
Money can move mountains if needed be ... and in this case, as long as someone can pay those 'concerned natives' there will no longer be any objection, nor any protests over 'trampling of sacred ground'
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:3, Informative)
You are so full of shit. This has nothing to do with money, but rather self rule. It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty. It's about the dozen plus other observatories already there (built under protest also). It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades. It's about a lot of things, but money isn't one.
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It's a shakedown. Pressure groups playing on grievances for a payout. Building scientific instruments on volcanic rubble isn't a desecration of anyone and it's nice to see the board not knuckling under to this fake outrage.
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Informative)
that's so nice and condescending of you to assume the motivations of others in a self-serving way
truly you are an enlightened, peerceptive, patronizing asshole
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In decision theory, a partitioning algorithm that guesses 100% of a population is in one group, and is right 98% of the time, is in one sense a very good algorithm. It's useless for sorting, but it is very accurate.
I am fine with assuming the vast majority of people, and their lawyers, in this type of situation are useless leeches looking to get pay-ay-aid to go away.
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"In decision theory..."
I stopped reading there.
The people protesting actually believe the reasons they put forth. If you are a cynical piece of shit and want to view otherwise, that's fine. You've simply announced your irrelevancy to any ability to actually understand the world you live in.
A bit hypocritical, coming from you... (Score:1)
> that's so nice and condescending of you to assume the motivations of others in a self-serving way
You're just fine with that when YOU are the one making assumptions. Would you like a review of your Slashdot posting history, pointing out where you have done this yourself?
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Interesting)
So yeah, these 'prote$ter$' can go and fuck themselves with a genetically modified papaya.
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They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes).
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
In just one of the local Pomo rancherias, there are three families continually vying for control of the band — see, the local "tribe" was actually made up of multiple "bands" (these are white people words, of course) which inhabit various reasons around the lake. One of the bands recently attained power and proceeded to remove a bunch of people from the rolls of who is a member of the tribe, basically declaring they're not Pomos any more. Now they're just people with no people. Natural
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It's not the case with this group.
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Still, from the outside it's pretty simple
Aren't you just underscoring my point for me? Thanks, I guess. It seems simple from the outside until you try to unravel why these three families have been fighting one another, and by the way, I never would because I'm not involved and it's not my business. But it also spills over into how business is done...
The way this body is formed is of no interest to the public outside of it.
Obviously, they could give a fuck. That was my point. From the outside, it looks simple, and who cares, anyway? But how this body is formed should be of some importance to people who want to make decla
One concern: fair and democratic (Score:2)
The way this body is formed is of no interest to the public outside of it.
Actually this is only true if it is formed through some recognizably fair and democratic process. For example if it is formed based on a hereditary concerns or an unfair and biased electoral process the public outside of the group will probably feel free to ignore it as not representing the people it claims to represent. While this may not apply here the way a governing body is formed does play a role in whether people outside it accord it any legitimacy and respect.
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Which 'Hawaiians'? This group most certainly does not represent the majority of Hawaiians, nobody has elected them. They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes). I predict that the case will be dismissed for the lack of standing, eventually. So yeah, these 'prote$ter$' can go and fuck themselves with a genetically modified papaya.
I don't think that lack of hierarchical organisations should prevent native people from having a say in the way their land is used. Obviously consensus is important, but if they can agree through polling, meetings or some other means then that should be enough.
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Yeah, that guy that won the powerball lottery and doesn't have to pay federal income tax is probably one of them. Plus Puerto Rico still has it better than American Samoa... At least people born in PR are US citizens.
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Really, you think health care is the reason why people should want to be in an American state? That's rich.
The PR economy would collapse without the US, true, but to become a state it would then end up with tax issues... basically the current situation is held together by economic motivations.
Anyway, at what point do you think Congress will get around to that, eh?
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Informative)
The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force. Puerto Rico was also annexed but has been offered independence and turned it down. By the time the statehood vote was taken, mass numbers of non-hawaiians had moved to the state and become residents and the only vote offered was either statehood or territory.
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Insightful)
you know how nicely strategically positioned hawaii is in the pacific?
hawaii was never going to be independent.
Just a question of whose thumb.
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The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force.
Yes, just like every other country on the planet, ever.
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The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force. Puerto Rico was also annexed but has been offered independence and turned it down. By the time the statehood vote was taken, mass numbers of non-hawaiians had moved to the state and become residents and the only vote offered was either statehood or territory.
Hawaii was not annexed by force, not really. The political history in Hawaii Nei is quite complicated. It used to be that each ahupuaa had its own alii which reported to an alii nui at the island level. If I remember my state history correctly, the Big Island even had multiple alii nui. It wasn't until Kamehameha I was given modern weaponry by the English that he was able to "unite" all the islands under his rule (guns are so much more powerful than clubs studded with shark teeth). Research the history of t
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You are so full of shit
Of course that guy is full of shit
Even if I am not born on the island of Honolulu, I call myself a 'native'
When I proclaim something to be sacred you guys better respect what I say, or else I will start donning some fancy cloth, dance some funny numbers, yell some mumbo-jumbo, and then tell you guys all of you have been cursed
Yes, ***CURSED***
You want that, hmm??
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Informative)
Why do you think over a dozen observatories have been built there? Think it's cheap to sent giant pieces of delicate scientific equipment from the mainland? TFA doesn't even mention the actual reason why Mauna Kea is one of the best places on the planet for optical telescopes: seeing conditions (aka, how much celestial objects "twinkle" on average. Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole), there's no other better known location on the planet (a couple are pretty close, like La Palma and La Silla, but none exceed it). Good seeing requires high altitude with the area around being as perfectly flat and uniform as possible for hundreds of kilometers.
For optical telescopes, seeing is the most critical factor for resolving fine details. And this telescope is all about resolving fine details. Adaptive optics help counter seeing problems, but the better your seeing baseline, the better the final result.
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Mauna Loa is still an active volcanic site that experiences earthquake activity. The last eruption was less than 30 years ago. Mauna Kea hasn't erupted in at about 5,000 years and is fairly quiet.
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Kilauea is the volcano that has been erupting since the 1983. Mauna Loa last erupted in 1984 and is considered active. Mauna Kea is dormant.
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Because it's the most active volcano in the world.
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Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole),
What are you smoking? It isn't possible to be *east* of the South Pole. Only north of it.
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The longitude center of the eastern hemisphere is 90 degrees east longitude. Dome A is about 80 degrees east longitude.
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I'm trying to give directions that one could use to actually locate something. Saying "it's to the north" is meaningless. It's 80 degrees east.
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Interesting)
This has nothing to do with money
Which is why people took issue with the other telescopes not paying rent yeah? Don't pay rent and you're freeloading; pay rent and you're offering 'bribe' money. Funny how spin can set things up for a no win situation.
but rather self rule.
Yes, this is true, people should realize that race based Hawaiian nationalism has been a factor in this whole thing. Not like that makes things any better though. If you want to put forward the idea of seceding into an independent nation, then you must derive sovereignty from the will of the people, not genetic happenstance. Holding science which benefits the whole of humanity hostage to promote a power grab makes things no better than 'saving Wakea' or whatever religious justification you care to use, in fact, I'd have much more respect for the appeal to religion. There's a long list of regressive assholes out there who think race should be an important factor in nationalism; do I really need to explain why they're wrong?
It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty.
Who's being held at gunpoint? Haven't seen that on the news. Unless you're implying something absurd like society should be tied to century old wrongs, in which case, once I'll gotten my 23 and Me ancestry results I'll have a nice long list of people I've never met to demand compensation from. Everyone from a century ago is dead, villains and victims alike. Helping those in need is one thing; demanding special treatment and unique consideration as birthright is something totally different. So, who is being forced to do things against their will now, today?
It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades.
Astronomers were doing that? Fascinating, do tell. That's a inane thing to say and you know it. Yeah, bad stuff happened in the past, no one is denying that, but two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to promote a thing, do it, be honest, say exactly what you mean, and let it succeed or fail based on its own merit. Attacking something else, making them out to be a villain they're not, in an effort to rally people around you with some us vs them nonsense...well, that's some bullshit politics and everyone knows it.
And the thing that really gets me about all this, is the protestors picked a just target. They decided to attack something they can't legally beat, so when they lose, they can cry oppression or some such nonsense.
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:4, Insightful)
Race-based nationalism doesn't magically become Good if it's not white people who are indulging in it.
Re: Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Interesting)
In 1960 the University of Hawaii entered into an agreement with Hawaiians that it maintain an 11,300 - acre natural preserve at the top of Mauna Kea, which over the years had been used for such activities as Enduro mud racing. Within this area, it could pursue astronomy with a 525-acre "astronomy precinct" within the reserve. What's going on now is an attempt to renege on this deal.
For the good of science, let's hope that Gov. Ige evolves a spine when the protests resume.
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There's plenty in Hawaiian culture worthy of recognition. To say there is no Hawaiian art is just ignorant and wrong, and it is certainty very much alive [youtube.com]. Do not mistake the protestors for all of Hawaiian culture, in which there is nothing which that would suggest there is anything wrong with telescopes on Maunakea.
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Re:Nothing that money can't buy (Score:5, Interesting)
You're right about the native part of the controversy, but the natives didn't get involved until the Greens decided to use them as pawns in the latest phase of their plan to destroy human civilization and bust us back to the Stone Age. In the past they have done this by preventing science from being applied, but most recently they have begun moving in on science itself. Stopping the TMT would be a crown jewel in this offensive. A nuclear plant not built in the US is a nuclear plant that can just as easily be built in China, but there is no Northern Hemisphere location for astronomy that can match Mauna Kea. La Silla covers the southern half of the sky and Mauna Kea gives us the northern half. Furthermore, the two locations are close enough to the equator to give us a large overlap zone in which long-baseline interferometry can be accomplished using both instruments.
How do I know all this? Because in the Nineties, the Greens held a dress rehearsal of their strategy here in Arizona: http://www.mountgraham.org/con... [mountgraham.org]
Their attack was exactly the same: whip up bogus native claims, sprinkled with the usual dusting of nonexistent "environmental impacts." In actual fact, large telescopes create an environmental umbrella hundreds of miles wide, within which which any pollution would ruin the seeing. Fortunately the native claims argument did not carry as much weight in Arizona as it does in Hawaii, and humanity won. After years of the usual legal mummery, the telescopes got built.
But did you know that one of the arguments Greens used at the time was: "Send the scopes to Mauna Kea. There's no opposition there."?
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My current boss's husband is the guy who made the special legislation happe
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Put me down as being proud of his "underhanded accomplishment" too. May the Earth First!ers, in particular, die in a fire.
When I visited the U of A Steward mirror lab on the Tucson campus, we were told that as each of the big mirror segments cast and ground there was completed, it had to be moved out at a secret randomized time of the night, in case terrorists tried to attack.
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You're absolutely right. I live on Maui, and see who it is that is protesting the loudest. There are a few people who genuinely believe it is a desecration, but that is a small minority of the protesters. Not that I mean to disrespect that minority, their viewpoint is legitimate in that it is what they truly believe, but I do mean to bash the rest, as those are illogical, irrational reality-deniers (anti-science == reality-denialism). It is the same people who think anything sciency or not "natural" is
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You're not the only one to notice that; I've seen that too. I've seen some protests here on O'ahu but never been to any, and I certainty don't care to, but I've noticed that there is a large overlap between the two groups. For example, one of the well known activists who wants all the telescopes gone is the same one who played a big role in the banning of genetically engineered taro research and presently supports the anti-GMO groups. IMO, there's a lot of projecting and two minutes of hate tactics to ad
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The substance of the native rights argument is that Mauna Kea is venerated in Hawaiian culture in the same way that Fujiyama is venerated in Japanese culture. Having been on both mountains (and also Mt Graham) has given me an earth-level view of what actually takes place on them. Mauna Kea has had telescopes since 1968, when I was able to see the very first one going in. What else was up there at the summit? Absolutely nothing, except for the access road and other hikers - and unlike most other mountaintops
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Clarke (Score:5, Interesting)