Amid Controversy, Construction of Telescope In Hawaii Halted 228
An anonymous reader sends word that Hawaii Gov. David Ige has asked for a week-long hold in the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope atop Mauna Kea. "After more than a week of demonstrations and dozens of arrests, Hawaii Gov. David Ige said Tuesday that the company building one of the world's largest telescopes atop Hawaii's Mauna Kea has agreed to his request to halt construction for a week. 'They have responded to my request and on behalf of the president of the University and the Office of Hawaiian Affairs have agreed to a time out on the project, and there will be no construction activities this week,' Ige said at a news conference. Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope on land that is held sacred to some Native Hawaiians. Scientists say the location is ideal for the telescope, which could allow them to see into the earliest years of the universe. Ige said he hopes the temporary pause in construction will allow the interested parties to have more discussions about the project. Native Hawaiian groups have been protesting the construction of the telescope since its inception last year."
NIMBY strikes again (Score:3, Insightful)
The natives should have said something before the Mauna Kea Observatory was constructed in 1968. Making all this noise now is decades too late.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
We have stopped building an expensive modern scientific instrument that will improve all of humanity, because of fucking ghosts. And not even ghosts in the "poltergeist" sense, but ghosts in the "my great grandaddy told me Jesus cries when you eat a ham and cheese sandwich" sense - Such complete nonsense that any adult should feel ashamed that such idiotic words might come out of their mouth in voicing their objections to this telescope.
The sooner we as a species stop humoring these morons, the better.
/ Not an atheist.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:4, Informative)
"The summit of Mauna Kea was seen as the "region of the gods", a place where benevolent spirits reside. Poliahu, deity of snow, also resides there. [wikipedia.org]"
Like I said, ghosts.
In any case, whether "ghosts" or "we liked hanging out there 1500 years ago", neither makes any difference as to whether or not we should build an observatory in one of the single most suitable spots on the planet for its primary purpose.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I would have a problem with you randomly appearing and taking a dump on my front lawn, because I pay the government roughly 1.5% of the value of my home every year for the continued privilege of having the mostly-exclusive right to decide who gets to defecate on my lawn.
If, however, I put out an ad for someone to come fertilize my lawn with human excrement, and awarded you an exclusive contract to do the job for the next 65 years... Well then, I wouldn't really have much to right to bitch about you doing exactly what I asked you to, now would I?
Now git offa mah lawn, whippersnapper!
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Interesting that you bring up Walmart, since they had problems with a site where a Walmart/Sam's Club complex was being built in the middle of Honolulu 11 years ago: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.... [honoluluadvertiser.com]
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
We have stopped building an expensive modern scientific instrument that will improve all of humanity, because of fucking ghosts. And not even ghosts in the "poltergeist" sense, but ghosts in the "my great grandaddy told me Jesus cries when you eat a ham and cheese sandwich" sense - Such complete nonsense that any adult should feel ashamed that such idiotic words might come out of their mouth in voicing their objections to this telescope.
I suspect that like most religious thing, it is just a justification for their behavior. In this case, they're still pissed about having their island and land taken from them in a coup sponsored by the American government in favor of corporations against their sovereign nation, the mess it has made for them since, and the general disrespect they get from everybody else. I have enough friends from there to know that if they said "it's part of our heritage" and you said "Boo hoo, fucking ghosts." Whether they believed in those ghosts or not, you'd get punched in the face because you generally being disrespectful to people who are complaining about people being disrespectful to them.
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You say "not an atheist" which I assume you mean you have some sort of religious belief. Why is their religious belief less important or more nonsensical than yours?
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:4, Funny)
Because it's obvious to any thinking person that there was a Creator.
Which ghosts live in which volcano is... somewhat less obvious.
That's the distinction.
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Err, no. The opposite, in fact.
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Ah, but you are not thinking through his claim well enough! ;)
A magical spirit that has existed forever somehow decided to make just us, here, and has a bunch of rather
arbitrary rules that we must follow or we go to hell for eternity, or heaven if we follow them (which seem to be somewhat flexible and
changing, as they once included stoning people to death and keeping slaves, but now, not so much..) is OBVIOUS (or pick another
one of the hundreds of belief systems if you like..), but that instead of that, the
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NIMBY is not a factor here, because it's not near anyone's "backyard" and it's not on reservation land, so it does not belong to the natives. In fact, it's in an area already populated with large telescopes.
Some of the scopes on this mountain had originally been planned for the summit of Mt Graham in southeastern Arizona. Like Mauna Kea, it's not reservation land, nobody lives there and no species is threatened by this particular kind of construction. But the identical controversy erupted when Greens protes
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to live in Hawaii. And I can tell you that native Hawaiians are always bitching. They also live on the beach and have nothing better to do all day than bitch, moan, and protest shit. It's just what they do.
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The American scientist and polymath Jared Diamond wrote a book, whose title is the solution to dealing with the Natives: "Guns, Germans, and Steel"
You can buy Guns and Steel, but Germans are the difficult one to get in the Beanie Baby set.
Also, German military policy is to only participate in wars which they start themselves.
(Joking aside, the German parliament gets their drawers in a not, with nasty debates, before they export a single H&K MP7 anywhere in the world.)
They also live on the beach and have nothing better to do all day than bitch, moan, and protest shit..
Strange . . . I could swear that
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> Strange . . . I could swear that you are describing the Greeks. Are you sure that you are really lived in Hawaii, and not Greece . . . ?
And here *I* thought he was talking about Venice, California.
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...while all this time he was in Romania.
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Vae Victis.
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I've been to Hawaii, and to this day there are "homeless" people who literally live under a bush and forage for food and to be honest, I could see how a person could do this. If you can sit on your ass at the beach all day and not worry about a job, why not?.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Interesting)
The natives should have said something before the Mauna Kea Observatory was constructed in 1968.
Most likely, they did complain. But the complaints were drowned out by all their complaining about everything else. Native Hawaiians are mostly anti-technology, anti-progress, anti-growth, anti-business, and anti-modern-world. They generally oppose anything that changes anything. They are also anti-education, with some of the worst schools in America, which just propagates the problem on to the next generation. The Big Island has a higher proportion of natives, which makes the problem there even worse than on Oahu. For instance, Hawaii has some of the best geothermal energy resources anywhere, and some of the highest electricity prices in the world. But geothermal energy is blocked because it "steals the breath of Pele", despite the fact that almost no one actually believes in Pele anymore. It is just used as an excuse to block progress. Oh, and one other thing: after blocking businesses from growing, electricity from being generated, and schools from being funded, they also complain that there are no jobs.
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Yeah, but I don't remember them complaining when they diverted the Lava to miss villages using modern technology.
Isn't that thwarting the will of Pele?
Kinda kills the argument for offending the gods.
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I don't remember them diverting lava to miss villages at all. Ten foot tall walls of advancing rock tend to defy human intervention.
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I recall several attempts. I just don't recall them being spectacularly successful. As was pointed out in the article you quoted: "The efficacy of this lava bombing is disputed by some volcanologists"
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Native Hawaiians are mostly anti-technology, anti-progress, anti-growth, anti-business, and anti-modern-world. They generally oppose anything that changes anything.
Coming from Arizona where a quarter of the state the feds have given to Indian reservations I can tell you that it is pretty much this way anywhere there are native cultures, though to be fair not all of the tribes are like that.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
"a quarter of the state the feds have given to Indian reservations"
This is an interesting use of the word "given".
some damn asshole said: (Score:2)
Why are they always so mad?
We're we're basically splitting this country 50/50 with them.
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Perhaps he meant they took the land from one Nation of Indians to set up reservations for Indians moved in from other places.
Re:NIMBY strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
Native Hawaiians are mostly anti-technology, anti-progress, anti-growth, anti-business, and anti-modern-world.
I want to point out here that the opposition is a vocal minority; there are a lot of Native Hawaiians who support the observatory. I don't live on the Big Island myself, but from talking to people who know a lot more on the topic than I do, it is my understanding that most Native Hawaiians are in support of the TMT. Most people in the Hilo area support the TMT, and recognize that it will being in economic, cultural, and educational benefits, as well as prestige and international recognition. It is the extremists who are protesting.
I can see where you are coming from though, and lets face it, there is a not insignificant segment of the Hawaiian community that really does seem to have some problems with the extreme anti-progress lot, especially with the Hawaiian independence activists who will stir up shit at any opportunity. These people build themselves around and value one thing and one thing only: being Hawaiian. That's it. How many cultures in history find success after getting so caught up in their own culture that they stop doing anything else? Not many. And yet, that is exactly the path these protestors want to take.
There is a great opportunity here for astronomy research, but do they want Hawai'i known for astronomy? Nope, just 'culture'. There is ongoing controversy about biotechnology here, with genetically engineered taro (University of Hawai'i developed, before anyone invokes that conspiracy) being banned previously for 'religious reasons' by exactly the same people now protesting the observatory. Do they want Hawai'i know for biotech? Nope, just 'culture'. And as you mentioned, there was the geothermal issue. Do they want that? Nope, just 'culture'. Every time, it is the same people protesting. It's like they want to kick out as much important things, things that actually matter and have social, educational, and economic value, until the islands are left with nothing...nothing but them of course.
The thing to remember is that the independence activists like to kick up a big fuss about anything they can to draw attention to themselves. And they don't care what the long term effects are. They don't care about a thriving Hawai'i...oh they say they do but their actions say otherwise. What they care about is bringing power and influence to themselves, and they find plenty of useful idiots along the way, both angry Hawaiians who have been told that all their problem are the fault of the US and they would be so much better under a new monarchy as well as hippie dipshits so overcome by white guilt that they bafflingly enough think a reestablishment of a race based Hawaiian Kingdom where they would be essentially second class citizens would, somehow, be a good thing. There is, as you see everywhere else, politics underlining anti-science, and in this case pretty nasty politics at that.
Personally, I'd be on the first plane to the mainland in the unlikely event any of these assholes ever got any real power. Their beliefs are simply unacceptable.
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I don't always use my mod points, but when I do, I mod up posts like yours.
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Actually, the Hawaiians weren't that bad. The had their share of drama and history to be sure, but not all that that you said. At least not any moreso than the Anglo-Saxons...
Telescope == Sacred (Score:5, Insightful)
What could be more honoring, holy and sacred than a telescope peering out into universe?
Religion and Racism (Score:2, Interesting)
What could be more honoring, holy and sacred than a telescope peering out into universe?
Doing it while paying a suitably large bribe and paying Hawaiians. Hawaii is one of the more corrupt places in the country, and there's a lot of anti-white racism.
Although in this case it may just be an anti-science woman who doesn't conceive of herself of anti-science using her religion to justify her not wanting change to the environment. Like a Wiccan fighting your attempt to sell a public park. It's hard to tell without being involved with the local politics. So long as we give religion an elevated
Re:Religion and Racism (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, my first thought when reading this story was that whoever was building that observatory didn't know that any building project in Hawaii has to start with a big bribe to the natives.
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Yeah, my first thought when reading this story was that whoever was building that observatory didn't know that any building project in Hawaii has to start with a big bribe to the natives.
Probably to the building inspector usually, but to someone claiming to represent native interests for big projects.
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Re:Religion and Racism (Score:5, Interesting)
"Someone else's land?" I have to believe they own the land there. Whether the natives recognize that or not, however...
You know, the natives might have some legitimate disagreements [wikipedia.org] about land ownership. Just because the traditional religion is used to block projects like this doesn't mean that it is the root cause. Religion may just have been legally expedient at first and then grew into a self-perpetuating thing.
Another poster was referring to the "corruption" in Hawaii, but a brief read of the link above would suggest that US financial interests have been corrupting Hawaii for a long time. And its funny how some of the descriptions of Hawaiians on this thread sound just like descriptions of Native Americans, African Americans, and just about any ethnic group that has been traumatised by rich white people over the last few centuries...
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Was it crappy that white people took over the islands? Yes. It was also completely normal for the time period. By 1900 there were more Japanese alone on the islands than natives. It's certainly not unfeasible to think that if the USA hadn't, that either Japan or some European power would have established at least a protectorate.
Look, history is a long story of people doing crappy thing
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Another poster was referring to the "corruption" in Hawaii, but a brief read of the link above would suggest that US financial interests have been corrupting Hawaii for a long time.
Yes, financial interests from US Citizens and Corporations are used to bribe the corrupt people. It doesn't excuse the people receiving or asking for the bribes from corruption.
If you file a set of building plans on hawaii, chances are they'll be rejected regardless of whether there's anything wrong unless you bribe the right guy, because you forgot to pay the bribe.
If you are on the list to receive a water meter in Hawaii, chances are you will languish there for a very long time as newcomers who bribe the
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They absolutely might have legitimate disagreements over land ownership. I don't have a problem with that going to courts. Two centuries ago we refused to honor native american ownership claims under the argument that, basically, while they recognized it was really, really unfair, the "courts of the conqueror" can't undo the conquering. But Hawaii was a different case and there would be more interesting land ownership claims, it is more recent and there are more detailed records of land transactions.
I do
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Exactly what I was thinking. I mean, if they were building a Soylent Green factory it would be an other story, but a Telescope... come on people!
Were it a Soylent Green factory, someone would be saying "Come on in, people!"
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I give you the Kennewick man (Score:2)
Not an Indian but they claim rights to the remains, this area you can't dig without hitting some ceremonial site (Washington State).
Posted to en.wikipedia.org yet some DRM prevents it from being included (ie creator of bust) http://tinypic.com/usermedia.p... [tinypic.com] and it's a damn statue.
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Not an Indian but they claim rights to the remains, this area you can't dig without hitting some ceremonial site (Washington State).http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j7ffoz&s=5#.VSVv_pK2Ivw
Posted to en.wikipedia.org yet some DRM prevents it from being included (ie creator of bust)
Good DRM can't get the pix to show
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Kennewick man is an anomaly with no reasonable shared heritage of any contemporary tribe. I suspect the native american opposition to study of Kennewick man is an unreasonable fear of weakened land claims. Totally BS.
When it was surmised that Kennewick man was caucasian I did like the neopagan group that claimed Kennewich man as one of their own and pressed to have their ancestor further studied.
I've got it!!! (Score:2)
'Sacred' is the magic word... (Score:4, Interesting)
If you are a native of any kind, just start yelling that something is sacred, and nobody will be able to fight back against you.
Hate stuff being built near you? Just claim you can't build there because it is sacred ground.
Want something built, like a casino or giant housing development? Just claim the land is sacred and demand it back as 'sovereign' territory... so that you can build your casino.
You get to have it both ways!
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That happened a few years ago here with the genetically engineered taro disaster. Basically, university researchers wanted to insert a disease resistance gene into taro, a historically very important Hawaiian crop, so that the unique Hawaiian varieties could be preserved without having to hybridize them with other varieties. People flipped out, saying that changing the taro is offensive because it is sacred. Of course, no one told the ancient Hawaiian that, because if these people knew the history of the
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Recursive telescope (Score:2)
Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope
Woah.
13 Telescopes already at the Summit (Score:5, Interesting)
https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/mko... [hawaii.edu]
This project has been in the works for 7 years, The local population that is against the building of this telescope has had that long to protest, but didn't actually start protesting until the project was already underway.
From what I hear on my Facebook feed from my Hawaiian friends is that they oppose the building of this new telescope because they consider Mauna kea a sacred place, as well as the sheer size of this new telescope.
The summit is sacred to ancient Hawaiians, so much that a kapu (Ancient Hawaiian law) was made that only important tribal chiefs were allowed up at the summit. (Breaking Kapu usually meant death).
So in old Hawaii only a select few were allowed up on the volcano. I don't know why anyone is complaining. in new Hawaii anyone can visit the summit and see the majestic views of the island as well as some amazing star-gazing at night.
I don't speak up on Facebook even though many of my friends are asking me to sign a petition to stop the building of the telescope as well as protesting locally (I am on Maui). Its hard since most of my friends are not very techy or interested much in science. I keep my mouth shut since I fear I will be ostracized for speaking my true opinion.
Only complaint I have, I really wish most of these telescopes were open to the public. I have never had the opportunity to look through anything bigger than a backyard telescope and it would be amazing to be able to see what a thirty meter telescope can do.
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Only complaint I have, I really wish most of these telescopes were open to the public.
You just have to reserve a time and show sufficient competency at operating one.
Kapu was horrifically elitist... (Score:2)
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If you ever make it the the Visitor's center on the Big Island halfway up Mauna Kea, they have some relatively fancy computer controlled telescopes for the public to look through. I was just there a few weeks ago, and you could see the clouds of Jupiter through one of them. If you're ever in the Hilo area, that's really a great thing to go to. The IFA is very good and active with their outreach. As for the observatories, those are not so easy to use, and there are waiting lists for astronomers to use th
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I live in Hawaii and am excited for the new 30 meter telescope. There are currently 13 telescopes at the summit of Mauna Kea. ...
Only complaint I have, I really wish most of these telescopes were open to the public. I have never had the opportunity to look through anything bigger than a backyard telescope and it would be amazing to be able to see what a thirty meter telescope can do.
As someone who actually uses these instruments, I can assure you that NO ONE "looks" through these telescopes. There are no eyepieces, or even the possibility of previewing the CCD images on those optical telescopes that take "field images". You have to put the digital image data through a whole data reduction "pipeline" to get the final images. In addition, a large number of the telescopes don't even use optical wavelengths: the Sub-Millimeter Array, James Clerk Maxwell, Caltech Sub-millimeter Observatory,
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Well, shame on you then, you coward. That's how oppression works.
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Only complaint I have, I really wish most of these telescopes were open to the public. I have never had the opportunity to look through anything bigger than a backyard telescope and it would be amazing to be able to see what a thirty meter telescope can do.
You don't really "look through" them so much as reserve time and then sit in a control room in Waimea, or more likely your home institution anywhere in the world, and wait for digital data. Some stuff is done with a realtime observer making decisions (based on the digital data), but a lot of it's automated and planned on schedules that optimize the amount of observing vs. the amount of repointing and other overhead. There's various ways to get access, but mostly they require being part of a research insti
I live and work out of Maui (thank you, Internet!) (Score:3, Interesting)
Let me tell you that the issue is far more complex and far more nuanced than any of the comments here unveil.
For some background, read this perspective from the Native Hawaiian community (http://www.welivemana.com/articles/sacredness-mauna-kea-explained?hc_location=ufi) and then also read this history from Harvard (http://www.pluralism.org/reports/view/21).
Mauna Kea is a flashpoint for Native Hawaiians because, as the Harvard report notes "it is also one of the most sacred places in the universe for Native Hawaiian people." Imagine putting an oil refinery inside the Masjid al-Haram or cell tower anchored in the Western Wall.
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Previously their most sacred site in the Universe was located where Newark NJ is now.
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Slashdot doesn't do complex and nuanced. We (well, most of us commentators and moderators, though not I) do simple and simplified - and insult and shit all over everyone else's rights, but scream like a toddler when one of our (usually self assumed) "rights" are so much as glanced at askance.
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It's the same on almost all of the Pacific islands. Where I live, the US gave several million dollars for the local government to guild sea walls all to protect the locals from rising tides due to climate change. There have been no rising tides and not one wall has been build but lots of 54" TV have been bought as well as big-ass SUVs with tinted windows for the government officers and their families to cruise around in. Considering you can drive all the way across the island in 3 minutes at 35 miles an hou
No (Score:2)
Sorry, no, you don't get to declare the entire top of the mountain that's the single best astronomy spot in the world, land you don't own or make any effort to maintain, as your cultural heritage location. The handful of spots up there that aren't a straight-up moonscape are already protected. Get over yourselves.
'sides, it's sacred as in the aborigines spun yarns about it while performing human sacrifice against enemies at the oceanfront heiaus scores of miles away laterally and 2 miles down. Not sacred a
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Well, to be fair, the only reason the natives don't own the land is that William McKinley's goons stole it from them at gunpoint. It seems reasonable that they might be mad about that.
A lack of vision...(no pun intended) (Score:2)
Science versus religion (Score:2)
Typical case of religion obstructing the progress of science. Luckily in this case it is a minority religion that the local administration does not take seriously anymore. Imagine if that was a place sacred to christians, like the Mount of Olives [wikipedia.org], or to buddhists, like Sri Pada [wikipedia.org] (also known as Sri Kanda [wikipedia.org]). The poor telescope would never have a chance.
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Can you show us any examples of Christians halting the construction of a telescope?
Build it in space (Score:2)
The sooner humanity gets off this rock, the better. Leave it for those who want to dance around in animal skins and howl at the moon.
need local support (Score:2)
It doesn't seem wise to try to construct such a thing without people on side.
Its too easy to protest non violently after construction with mobile phone signals and halogen lights.
I lived in La palma for a while in Europe. People here are happy to have mobile internet service and mobile reception cut mid call to improve observation. You need that level of support.
If you can get support then you have to build on another territory. I know the USA has other territories similar. I would like to be able to quote
Meaning of sacred (Score:2)
If someone sincerely believed the ground to be truly sacred, wouldn't a telescope that helps bring enlightenment to all of humanity be one of the *best* possible uses of the land?
Re:The tarnishing of spirits really helps (Score:5, Insightful)
The land is on top of a dormant volcano away from city lights. and the "bowl" at the top makes the perfect base for it...
Re: The tarnishing of spirits really helps (Score:2, Insightful)
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To be clear, I wasn't making a moral judgment either for or against. Merely stating the reasons why the site was ideal for the planned telescope.
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Avoiding use of land because random fuckwit thinks it's "holy" is asinine. My church says that a telescope is the pinnacle of sanctity and any holy site is utterly incomplete without one, and although I just invented my church is has every bit as much legitimacy as some millenia old superstition.
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The reason there are no cities nearby is that the mountaintop is at 13000+ ft (3400m). Not many people want to live that high up. And, to the parent, there is no "bowl" at the summit of Maunakea - it's mostly cinder cones.
The primary reasons for wanting to be on Maunakea are (1) average over 240 clear nights per year and (2) you are above most of the atmospheric water vapor.
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Yes, actually, there is something better about that land. First, it's 13,000 feet above sea level, outside most of the earth's atmosphere. Second, the winds above the side are unusually stable, making it easy to post-process the data with computers to get rid of atmospheric distortion.
It's one of the few places on earth you can collect astronomical data with quality comparable to a space-based telescope.
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"Most" is a stretch. The standard atmosphere calculator [digitaldutch.com] says 13,000 ft is above 1/3 of the mass of the atmosphere and below 2/3 - i.e., the density is reduced to 56% that at sea level.
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" there's only so many places to bury people over the course of a few hundred years. "
Do you think that you've ever been anyplace where NO ONE has ever died? Mankind has a 5000 year recorded history, and tens of thousands of years of history that weren't recorded - much if at all. Anyplace you have ever walked, you were probably in sight of a place where someone died, at some point in time. You almost certainly walk on hallowed ground, no matter where you live.
Of course, I don't worry about it much. A c
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Do you know the key strategic weakness of the human race? The dead outnumber the living. - Missy
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If you are reporting about a protest, you should, at the very minimum say WHY they are protesting.
This article totally fails to do that.
From TFS and TFA:
Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope on land that is held sacred to some Native Hawaiians.
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Streetlight upgrades are to remove the blasted things. They waste energy and pollute.
Re:Bad reporting (Score:5, Interesting)
The worst part of the reporting, and what nobody really wants to talk about, is the reason that the county and state pressured TMT for a 1-week hiatus - this is the week of the Merrie Monarch Hula Festival in Hilo, a time when hula halau (schools) from all over the state and several other places all converge on the Big Island. There's no way local authorities wanted to have images of 13-yr-old girls in hula costumes being arrested on the Maunakea summit. Bad for tourism, ya know...
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Compromise. Allow them to name the facility after one of their gods and more importantly setup a scholarship in astronomy for native Hawaiians. In the future a few native Hawaiian astrophysicists or cosmologist would totally change the picture.
Re:Hawaii (Score:5, Interesting)
This is more likely an expression of Hawiian nationalism which has been on the rise in recent years.
In some cases it has crossed the line into race hatred as the Southern Poverty Law Center noted [splcenter.org] a few years back.
And there are several independence groups. China has even offered to arm them. [freebeacon.com]
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The last day of school has long been unofficially designated "Kill Haole Day," with white students singled out for harassment and violence. (Haole — pronounced how-lee — is slang for a foreigner, usually white, and sometimes is used as a racial slur.)
Hot damn that's some fiery racism.
Re:Hawaii (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the most likely reason. You see a lot of the same people protesting this as you see against a lot of other things (like geothermal power, biotechnology, tourism, ect.). They don't care what they protest, as long as they make some noise to draw attention to their cause of re-establishing the Hawaiian monarchy...with themselves as the new kings no doubt...and recreating the Hawaiian kingdom for people with Hawaiian blood. That, of course, is an inherently racist proposition. And I've snooped around those independence rallies before; I've seen these Hawaiian community leaders and independence activists play the race card in manners that, quite frankly, I think are unacceptable in an enlightened society.
They're people who live in the past, and play identity politics and pointless localism to enrich themselves by giving people something to hate on, no matter the cost (really, no different than you see in the South with those 'The Confederate States will rise again!' assholes). Of course, the Hawaiian nationalists don't care if this place goes to shit after they do as much damage as possible to achieve their goals, as long as they're the kings of shit mountain, and tough luck for everyone else, including no doubt their supporters who would then be in a much worse off position without the US and all the economic drivers the nationalists would like to see gone. It's really sad that anyone gives these assholes the time of day.
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Whoa. I didn't say it was good or bad.
I was just replying to the suggestion that this was the fault of "liberals".
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Also crappy as that may be and have been, it should probably also be mentioned that the alternative was not "Hawaii lives happy and free and everything is perfect." It would have been being turned into a Protecto
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Hawaii was annexed by the US decades before it became a state. There was a vote for statehood, but the alternate choice was to remain a territory - independence was never on the table, and it may just be that those who voted considered statehood the better choice of the two.
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Re:Hawaii (Score:4, Interesting)
Has what Marx proposed been tried on any scale larger than a hippie commune?
No. Why is that?
It's certainly not because Marx's ideas are new, or because there aren't a lot of devotees of them. I posit that the reason it hasn't been tried at scale is that every attempt to scale it up breaks down as soon as you get more than a few hundred people.
Marx was a decent economist for his day, but had no understanding of human nature. An understanding of game theory, had it existed in his day, would have tremendously improved his ideas, I think. In addition, his economic theories have holes you can drive a 747 through, mainly because they seriously underestimate the knowledge component of labor, and the resulting impact of innovation, and completely ignore the value of organization. It's the latter problem that results in imposition of heavy-handed, centrally-controlled economies in all attempts to build communal societies at scale. Since Marx's structure eliminates any reasonable mechanism for self-organization of a dynamic economy, implementers try to paper it over with central committees. Unfortunately, central organization is not only horribly inefficient because the complexity of a significant economy is far beyond the comprehension of any group of humans, it inevitably creates powerful, self-interested elites. That generates resentment among the populace, which provokes top-down imposition of population control systems... propaganda, powerful secret police, etc. -- the hallmarks of the real-world communist state.
It's pretty obvious why Marxism can't work at scale, once you recognize the fact that collective ownership eliminates the ability of the economy to self-organize for efficient production. As long as the economy is small and organization is simple and obvious, it works. But beyond a few hundred people... it can't. Perhaps after we've passed the AI singularity, when all production is automated, and all organization of production as well, then communal ownership will work, and may even be essential. Or maybe not.
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There's always one idiot who falls back on the claim that Communism just hasn't been done correctly yet.
If you use Marx's terminology then technically they're right, the farthest we've ever gotten is dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the phase before communism. Nitpicking aside, I agree with what you were trying to say, centrally planned utopias just don't match up with human behavior and so will never be a successful model.
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Pretty impressive for a transgendered goddess.
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It would look more like an arsehole...
Re:Other reasons (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Other reasons (Score:4, Informative)
To my knowledge, they have and there is public information available [malamamaunakea.org] on the environmental impact statement. This work is being done by astronomers who really do care. I've seen far to many people act as if this is some big mean corporation who just wants to profit at the cost of the environment or something. I've met these people, they are scientists, who value the environment and respecting culture. And if that were the main problem, the activists should hit those issues specifically instead of calling for the scrapping of the whole thing, and also, if that were the main issue, we wouldn't have prominent activists wanting a removal of all telescopes. [civilbeat.com] It doesn't surprise or convince me when people who call for the TMT stopped on every conceivable ground also call for it to be stopped on environmental ones.