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Math Classic Games (Games)

Number of Legal 18x18 Go Positions Computed; 19x19 On the Horizon 186

Posted by timothy from the now-we'll-call-it-gone dept.
johntromp writes It took about 50,000 CPU hours and 4PB of disk IO, but now we know the exact number of legal 18x18 Go positions. Seeking computing power for the ultimate 19x19 count. And it's not a heat-death-of-the-universe kind of question, either, they say: "Thanks to the Chinese Remainder Theorem, the work of computing L(19,19) can be split up into 9 jobs that each compute 64 bits of the 566-bit result. Allowing for some redundancy, we need from 10 to 13 servers, each with at least 8 cores, 512GB RAM, and ample disk space (10-15TB), running for about 5-9 months."
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Number of Legal 18x18 Go Positions Computed; 19x19 On the Horizon More

Number of Legal 18x18 Go Positions Computed; 19x19 On the Horizon

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  • How Much Does it Cost? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    How many cryptocoins could be mined for that amount of computing power?

    • More interestingly, how many crypto exchanges could be hacked and the mined coins stolen by that amount of effort.

    • Not that many, the general purpose cpus are poorly suited to cryptocurrency and the low core count would hamper the number of threads.
      Either thread heavy GPU's, incredibly cheap SOC's or well suited FPGAs return much more coin for the buck than what they are asking for here

      If you went to Dell for this, it would run just under $200k (list price, using local disk), but there is probably an awful lot of suitable gear that is being aged out or abandoned by bankrupt companies out there that could be picked up fo

      • Instead of going to Dell, why not use Amazon EC2? Probably do it way cheaper and you could set it up in a couple hours.

      • What is the financial interest is solving this?

        It's Go ; it's more important than mere finance.

        There is a ha-ha-but-serious school of thought about Go that it's not a matter of life and death, but something much more important. You'd be harder-tested to find a room full of Go players who could meaningfully give an opinion on whether Go was more important than the heat death of the universe. I suspect that given such qualified people, you'd get an affirmative on the question.

  • I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by KGIII ( 973947 ) <uninvolved@outlook.com> on Sunday March 08, 2015 @07:24PM (#49211695) Journal

    However, I think I'd like to learn to play this game. I played chess at an amateur level and did rather well at it during and even after college. I don't know if any of the skills transfer but I've been told that the mentality transfers. Being able to look a half dozen or more moves ahead and being able to picture all the moves my opponent can make are, as I have been told, something that does transfer.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I played chess and go when I was a kid in China, and sucked at both. From my limited experience, chess is more tactical and analytic, while go is more strategic and holistic, although local territorial fights in go can be just as intense, where skills in chess can somewhat "transfer". Because of its holistic nature, kids sometimes excel in go. If you start as an adult, it'd be difficult, if not impossible to attain master level performance. But in any case, go is trivial to learn and more fun to play.

      • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @08:02PM (#49211799) Journal

        I played chess and go when I was a kid in China, and sucked at both.

        There are approximately 100 people in the world who don't suck at chess, and even they make silly mistakes. Don't play chess in an effort to be the 'best', play chess because it's fun.

        • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @10:04PM (#49212293) Homepage

          To be honest, as a kid I enjoyed chess and played with my friends right up to the point where you suddenly had to start memorizing openings and other canned sequences. At which point it felt more like a school subject than an escape from it.

          • You never needed to memorize. Push toward a position you're comfortable with, especially if you happen to know your opponent prefers a different type of position. An open player can f2f4 in a complicated position which can be very jarring and put the opponent into time trouble simply because he wants to figure out what you think you see. Or g2g3 and locked pawns can frustrate the hell out of an open player. At my absolute best I was 1800, and I memorized very very little. You're no Fischer and I'm no Capabl

          • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Interesting)

            by AthanasiusKircher ( 1333179 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @11:28PM (#49212589)

            I have to agree with this. I loved chess as a little kid -- probably started playing when I was 4 or so. Always just played for fun and liked the way it was more complex than something like checkers. I also occasionally enjoyed puzzling out some of those chess puzzles in the newspaper, which usually involved endgame scenarios. But then, early in middle school, I played against someone who actually "knew what he was doing," which included things like memorized openings, basic tactics, and canned strategies. He was kinda dumb but nonetheless beat me handily. I spent a month or two learning openings and such, and suddenly I could beat most of my friends (including those quite a bit older) pretty consistently too, just from the improved board positions.

            At that point I realized that becoming a "real chess player" was very different from the fun I'd been having, and I completely lost interest. I've only played a handful of times since, mostly because it's really hard to have any fun playing with my knowledge -- not enough to play "real chess" against anyone who studied strategy, but too much to play against the people who know the basic rules but never learned that stuff.

            I admire the grandmasters, because they have both that amazing set of memorized knowledge AND the incredible logic/intuition. But I have absolutely no desire to play the game anymore because while I'm somewhat interested in the latter, I can't be bothered with the former. It's permanently ruined for me.

            • By the way... I should clarify that I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who play at "my level"... And if I were into playing games on the internet, etc., I'm sure I could find them. But I learned chess on a real board before computer chess was common, and I always played it as a casual social experience... And I just don't have the desire to go looking for opponents at my level. Anyhow, my point was my perception of the game changed radically when I became aware of certain bits of classic strate
            • Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Just wondering if you ever tried Chess 960 [wikipedia.org]?

          • as a kid I enjoyed chess and played with my friends right up to the point where you suddenly had to start memorizing openings and other canned sequences.

            The world champion doesnt do this... prior champions certainly have but the current one isnt looking hard for an advantage in the opening...

          • This is how I felt learning a rubix cube.

            It was really cool learning how to solve it, but learning all of the more efficient way to do it just took the fun out of it for me.

        • "fun"?

          easy for you to say

          then you lose to your little sister

        • I once lost a game of chess to a guy who was partially stoned, and who didn't know the complete ruleset. Yes, I'm that sloppy.

          That said, I once did beat the reigning extended family chess player with a very very risky move that required me to sacrifice my queen and have a couple moves after that. Very risky. That's my fave fame of pretty much anything ever because of that.

          • I once lost a game of chess to a guy who was partially stoned

            Probably because he was stoned. The downsides to being high, as it relates to chess, can be managed.. while the upside remains.

            (the downside is that you are more prone to overlook things, the upside is that you can focus quite well on specific things.. "wide" vs "deep")

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by anagama ( 611277 )

        Ignoring the assholes making fun of you for being interested and explaining why, you can start learning right now:

        igs: http://pandanet-igs.com/commun... [pandanet-igs.com]
        kgs: https://www.gokgs.com/ [gokgs.com]

        I know you can play the Gnu Go Server on kgs, if you want to avoid playing with a person for a while. You can also install it on your computer: https://www.gnu.org/software/g... [gnu.org]

        • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by chipschap ( 1444407 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @11:35PM (#49212601)

          I'm bad at Go (about 19k AGA, which is quite bad), but I really enjoy it. The Go community differs radically from the chess community. My experience (yours may vary) is that the Go community is more supportive, understanding, and genteel. There's a lot of tradition and protocol in Go and I think it means something.

          You can be a clueless beginner (the writer raises his hand), go to a club (or online) and almost always find someone willing to give you a teaching game. If there is a club in your area, meeting some other players is a giant plus, but there are many great online sites.

          I play for fun, which is the best reason, and I enjoy it immensely. Will I improve? Of course. Will I ever excel? No, but that's not the point for me.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by KGIII ( 973947 )

          Much thanks. I will start this evening I think.

    • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Informative)

      by cheesybagel ( 670288 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @08:07PM (#49211819)

      Having played both nothing transfers. The strategy level is different. Go is about unit formations and patterns. Chess is about unit tactics. There is a Japanese equivalent to Chess i.e. Shogi.

      • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Funny)

        by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @08:29PM (#49211899)

        Having played both nothing transfers. The strategy level is different. Go is about unit formations and patterns. Chess is about unit tactics.

        I can play both at an intermediate level, and I agree with this. The mentality is very different. If you are starting as an adult, you are very unlikely to ever be a master, but you can easily learn the game well enough to have fun. Go has a handicapping system that allows for competitive games between people with a wide skill gap. Besides, Go tournaments, like chess tournaments, and model railroading conventions, are a great place to meet chicks.

        • Gorgeous, and frustrated, chicks. Chicks who just wanna go have a beer.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dAzED1 ( 33635 )
          err...what? (does google image search of chess conventions) ummm...what? The only images that have girls in them at all, much less at as anywhere near a third or more of the population, are images for cosplay where they're playing "human chess" at a convention. The conventions actually for chess...not so much.
          • Presumably, that's because all the gorgeous and frustrated chicks are out-of-frame, enjoying a beer.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by dAzED1 ( 33635 )
              ah, well, I hadn't factored that in - you must be correct, that's likely what is occurring.

      • It is kind of like the difference between playing a Total War game vs X-COM but only worse.

    • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Michael MacDonald ( 3967307 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @08:18PM (#49211841)
      My problem isn't seeing ahead by quite a few moves. I, actually, am quite skilled at that, I can look well ahead of the current turn, figure out what the best possible strategy would be in my current situation, and do it fairly quickly. My issue is a bit different. It seems that the game itself is, actually, extremely boring, and when I start thinking about something more interesting - like porn, or popcorn - I manage to completely forget all those moves I foresaw so brilliantly, and make the absolute worst possible move I could have made instead. Then the game ends quicker, and I can go make some popcorn and watch porn. Which isn't so bad, really, in the end.

    • My two (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I also took chess quite seriously for a few years, reaching approximately 1800. The pervasiveness of rote openings discouraged me a bit, but I always loved the game and still do. However, I abandoned it for Go, where I hold a shameful but enjoyable rating of 6-7kyu. I have never found any aspect of Go, other than scarcity of oponents , worth complaining about. It is, perhaps, the world's only perfect game. Just remember to lose your first 50 games as quickly as possible. Afterwards, expect a lifelong compan

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Chess is a battle. Go is a war.

      • Chess is a battle. Go is a war.

        I'm all out of mod points, but this is an excellent summary of the difference.

    • Re:I know it is a bit late in life... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by shadowofwind ( 1209890 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @09:13PM (#49212155)

      Chess mentality doesn't transfer very well to go in my observation. Since go has vastly more plausibly good moves, chess players often find themselves not understanding how to choose where to go next. Most people I've known who like go a lot hate chess. I've known one person who likes both, and he was never able to get very good at go. Generally speaking, chess can be learned by someone who can think logically and learn the standard opening sequences. Go is more like painting. Its not necessarily a superior skill, but not all intellectually-smart people are smart in the right way.

      But by all means learn, its easy to get a game on the internet. If you like it its worth it. And if you do it for ego and discover you suck, sometimes that's worth something too.

    • I can tell from my experience, having played Go decently, but being a calamity at Chess.

      To give an example, I wrote a chess-playing program (a simple alpha-beta minimax with a value function pilfered from SunFish
      https://github.com/thomasahle/... [github.com]
      No iterative deepening, no transposition table, no null-move search, no ...). When I set it to just 4 plies (that is two moves ahead) it absolutely destroys me. Basically, to be a decent chess player, you must have the ability to picture the board in your head and be

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by nojayuk ( 567177 )

        There's a version of blindfold Go where both players use the same colour of stones. They can see all the stones placed on the board so it's theoretically still a full-information game. They remember who played which stone or they can work it out from the pattern.

        • Agreed, there is "one color go" as you describe it.
          The point I was trying to make is that while this version of go is not very popular, any chess player starting at about National Master level (and certainly for those at IM level) is capable of playing blindfolded.
          This ability is simply a by-product of their training, not something they specifically aim for.
          For Go players, the ability to play with the same color stones is not something that follows naturally from their training.

          Go and Chess expand different

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dAzED1 ( 33635 )

      I know it's a bit late in life, but I was thinking about learning how to make mead. I know it's a bit late in life, but I was thinking about training to run a marathon. I know it's a bit late in life, but I met this woman and we've decided to get married...

      You don't have to be the world's best at something, just to do it at all. There's a certain generation of geeks I guess that grew up playing particular games (modern warfare and the like) where those who weren't in the top tier would have a hard time h

  • we need from 10 to 13 servers, each with at least 8 cores, 512GB RAM, and ample disk space (10-15TB), running for about 5-9 months

    sounds pretty slow to me

    • 4PB of disk IO

      How many Libraries of Kokuritsu Kokkai Toshokan [wikipedia.org] is that?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ihtoit ( 3393327 )

      it might sound like an exercise in how much CPU can we tie up for no discernible reason, but it does have applications in encryption and chaotic systems analysis, a lot of which is directly related to the actual calculation being discussed.

  • Number of legal positions (Score:5, Informative)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @08:25PM (#49211869) Journal
    Here is the number of legal positions:
    6697231142888292128927 401888417065435099377 8064017873281031833769694562442854721810521 43260127743713971848488909701 11836283470468812827907149926502 347633

    Why they chose to present it like that, instead of scientific notation, I'll never know but there it is. It's so long Slash-filter won't let me post it without adding spaces.

  • Just found that out today (Score:4, Funny)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday March 09, 2015 @01:36AM (#49213007)

    My Computer:
    "For no reason at all, would you like to play a game of Go today?" *casual indifference*

    Me:
    "Sure, 20x20 board?" *smiles*

    Computer:
    "Never mind" *sulks*

  • Besides curiousity, why was computing power (read: energy) spent on this?

  • compute the number of nodes and CPU-hours required, hence the system cost, of a 20x20 system.

    That's before you even start calculating the actual positions.

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