Research Suggests That Saunas Help You Live Longer 208
jones_supa writes A study of Finnish men suggests that frequent sauna baths may help you live longer. Previous research has suggested that saunas might improve blood vessel function and exercise capacity, or even lower blood pressure in patients with hypertension. The new study links long, hot sauna baths with more benefits, including fewer deaths from heart attacks, strokes, various heart-related conditions and other causes. The study tracked 2315 Finnish men for nearly 20 years on average. Most participants used saunas at least once weekly. Those who used them four to seven times weekly received the greatest benefits. The study published in JAMA Internal Medicine wraps up by saying that further studies are warranted to establish the potential mechanism that links sauna bathing and the aforementioned cardiovascular benefits.
Easy life (Score:5, Insightful)
I bet if I had the time to visit the fucking spa 7 days a week I'd live a heck of a lot longer too.
Re:Easy life (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Easy life (Score:4, Insightful)
Not a problem if you enjoy exercising. Or saunas.
Re:Easy life (Score:5, Funny)
A sauna is like exercising, in that it's hot, uncomfortable, and you sweat too much. But the advantage is that you get to sit down and do nothing.
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A sauna is like exercising, in that it's hot, uncomfortable, and you sweat too much. But the advantage is that you get to sit down and do nothing.
The sweat may be the key to this. Salt isn't bad for you, as long as you are pissing or sweating it out. Something that the "western world" folks do a lot less of during the course of their lives. Higher sustained salt loads in the blood and tissues may cause some harm.
Re:Easy life (Score:4, Insightful)
And when you are not exercising, you sleep better, you look better, you feel better, you are happier, and sometimes you experience high utility from your more powerful body.
But if you don't like exercising none of this matters. Those benefits will not be enough to motivate you to hit the gym. But that's ok. There is no law that says you must seek these benefits. Anyone who would impose these values on you is not worth your time.
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Because there are no one with sports injuries at the ERs...
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Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the sport.
Re: Easy life (Score:4, Insightful)
Explain Jim fix?
Easily. Not all exercise is created equal. The jogging craze of the 70s/80s should be dumped into history's dustbin along with the low-fat diet. Also, too much exercise is almost as bad as too little. See my other responses in this thread for more.
Re: Easy life (Score:4, Insightful)
Easy. The standard deviation is substantially larger than the effect being measured. Doesn't mean the effect isn't real, or even that it can't be measured fairly accurately. Just that it will be completely lost in the noise of anecdotal evidence without a proper statistical analysis.
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Explain Jim fix?
Too much tofu. Jogging too soon after eating too much tofu?
Bill Hicks might have said "Not enough time spent smoking cigarettes and getting nude women to sit on his bald noggin"
Seriously - congenital heart disease(?)
Re:Easy life (Score:5, Interesting)
Not at all the case, actually. I did the math on this once, based on the most conservative estimate of years added to live for moderate-to-intense exercise.
For one thing, it turns out that the best exercise is of fairly short duration. You can get all the strength training you need in 1 or 2 hours a week. Add another hour a week for some moderate aerobics and, make a few other "life hacks" such as a stand-up desk, and you have every likelihood of adding at least 5 years to your life. And we're not talking about those painful last 5 years where you can't do anything, but 5 years of vitality to your productive mid-life. And a good deal more mobility and independence during your last 10 years.
And let's just say you exercised at 3 hrs/week for 50 years, starting at age 30. By the time you are 80, you have burned up a grand total of 1 year exercising. Those other 4 years are gravy.
How about that? the 80/20 principle at work.
Re:Easy life (Score:5, Insightful)
And we're not talking about those painful last 5 years where you can't do anything, but 5 years of vitality to your productive mid-life.
Cite? I'm genuinely curious. The trick is finding research that is based on intervention, not just observation. For example: studies of runners. People who are still running at age 55+ have been intensively selected by their joints over the years, many people will have experienced knee/hip/ankle/back problems well before that age and quit. How do you establish the control group: people who could keep running but choose not to? Otherwise you are conflating the benefits of not being at risk for arthritis, tendinosis, vertabrae/disk issuses, torn meniscus, etc. with the benefits of exercise.
Re:Easy life (Score:5, Informative)
There have been many, many studies on this matter over the past couple decades. A couple of my favorite meta-aggregators of these studies are Rogue Health and Fitness [roguehealt...itness.com] and Mark's Dailly Apple [marksdailyapple.com] (yeah, he's a paleo advocate, but he's also a former top competitive runner, Ironman winner, and currently a sculpted buff dude in his 60s [marksdailyapple.com] -- and his wife only a few years younger looks like a fitness model). Even more interesting, look into guys like Art Devany. He and his wife are in their mid-70s, yet fitter than most people in their 40s.
Basically, the health promises of the 70s-80s were found to be false along several axes. The most notorious being recommendations for the low-fat, high-carb diet, but also the whole jogging/aerobics craze that started in the late 70s has been found to be empirically a failure. This is what led to the renewed interest in weight-lifting and other strength training. Long-duration, plodding exercise really isn't ideal to longevity. Running 10 miles a day used to be thought the peak of fitness, but really it results in muscle atrophy, heart strain, joint problems, etc...
And the problem with focusing on athletes is generally that they overdo it. Athletes are people singularly focused on *winning* not on health and longevity. Athletes will gladly trade a decade of life for a short-term competitive edge. This is what Mark Sisson (Mark's Daily Apple above) found. His competitive running had him constantly sick and/or injured. He scaled his workout way back, stopped the long-distance running, and focused more on short-duration high-intensity exercise to stimulate the hormesis/recovery cycle, and specifically worked on gaining muscle mass.
There is sort of a golden mean to exercise, recovery, muscle mass, strength, etc... And generally it looks about like the "fitness model" ideal for women and the wrestler physique for men. Muscular but not freakish. Slim but not skinny, low body fat, but not veins showing everywhere... you get the idea.
Side note: I was flying back from SCALE 13x last week, and ended up sitting next to a cardiologist who has been doing research in these areas. His synopsis: we should all be lifting weights, and lifting *heavy*.
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BTW back on topic, my point about hormesis/recovery also applies to saunas. Extreme heat puts a certain amount of stress on the body--especially the skin, which if done on moderation produces recovery benefits.
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Completely missed the point of my post:
How do you establish the control group: people who could keep running but choose not to? Otherwise you are conflating the benefits of not being at risk for arthritis, tendinosis, vertabrae/disk issuses, torn meniscus, etc. with the benefits of exercise.
It's just as true for weight training.
Plus: anecdotes?
Really?
Re:Easy life (Score:5, Informative)
Yes really. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. Consult a dictionary. You asked for citations, which I did not have at hand, but directed you to a couple sites that have lots of them. Knock yourself out.
There is no such thing as conclusive proof in any of these areas. I tend to prefer empiricism and general pattern-recognition to theory-directed research because in the area of health it is so fraught with false positives, statistical failures, presuppositions and downright fraud due to industry influence. But if you browse through PubMed or PLOS for research in these areas, you will be hard-pressed to find negative implications for weightlifting or strength training. Positive implications abound.
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You'd have to browse Pubmed with blinders on to miss all the studies of how weight training leads to injuries. Just picking one author who writes about them, here's 1 [nih.gov] 2 [nih.gov] 3 [nih.gov] 4 [nih.gov] studies on it. I only do body weight exercises now, and I count myself lucky that I only have one mild uncorrectable shoulder injury from my lifting days.
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Exactly what anonymous said. Anything can be overdone, and this tends to happen when people go on crazes. The jogging craze was last generation's example. Jogging can be an excellent part of an exercise regimen, but when you do it to the exclusion of all else, for 2 hours a day... you're courting disaster. Ditto for the current "crossfit" craze, where people with zero experience are jumping around in the gym, lifting (or even throwing!) heavy weights with zero ramp-up and zero instruction on good form, and
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You'd have to browse Pubmed with blinders on to miss all the studies of how weight training leads to injuries. Just picking one author who writes about them, here's 1 [nih.gov] 2 [nih.gov] 3 [nih.gov] 4 [nih.gov] studies on it. I only do body weight exercises now, and I count myself lucky that I only have one mild uncorrectable shoulder injury from my lifting days.
Makes me wonder if the studies controlled for crossfit idiocy or not.
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You know what else minimizes the risk of musculoskeletal problems caused by weight-training? Not doing it, and instead training with something that's considered a less hardcore workout.
Workout intensity has a large range of activity in it, each with a corresponding risk. I don't think it's appropriate to talk about the benefits of serious strength training without also noting the associated dangerous parts. If you're young enough that you only have been lifting for 12 years (hint: half as long as me), y
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Yes really. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.
tend to prefer empiricism and general pattern-recognition to theory-directed research because in the area of health it is so fraught with false positives, statistical failures, presuppositions and downright fraud due to industry influence.
So your answer to the problems of false positives and statistical failures are studies where n = 1.
Ok.
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No. Hell no. You don't understand empiricism at all.
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Really, I have to remind myself often that most people (even slashdot nerds) are simplistic binary thinkers. They latch onto a certain way of looking at something (ooh, I'm all sciency!) and try to hit everything with the same hammer.
What we are having here is not a scientific study. Nor is it a debate. What we are having here is a discussion. This being a discussion forum. When I bring up something anecdotal, it doesn't mean I am basing a decision or opinion purely on that anecdote. It just means I find it
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Agreed with the initial 2.5 paragraphs of your post. But
if you want to strengthen a muscle, you have to exercise it, and in general the more intense the exercise, the greater the gains ............ in general exercise leads to better health. By logical inference, better health would obviously lead to the likelihood of living longer
Exercising a muscle strengthens it can be accepted. But I don't see any increasing function between muscle strength and health. And it is another leap, though a shorter one, between better health and living longer.
Very weak people are unlikely to be healthy - but after a certain threshold increasingly more muscle strength definitely doesn't lead to better and better health. This threshold isn't even hunk level strength. Note also that health is typical
Re: Easy life (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, and my experience is that a) most doctors are physically lazy and have abominable fitness, and b) they are stuck on years or even decades-outdated studies of fitness and diet. And, c) they tend to favor medical and pharmaceutical intervention rather than lifestyle changes. This is a natural outcome of how their money is made and their social position in Western society. Which is why I don't have *blanket* trust in their fitness recommendations as a majority. This particular cardiologist was doing his own original research, which is why he came to these conclusions.
I come from a family of doctors and medical people, BTW. I have no axe to grind. I just try to observe as clearly as possible.
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My overall takeaway from years of reading on the topic is that variety is key. Note that the cardiologist wasn't saying "only lift heavy", but just saying that it's a "should" (I.E. make it part of your routine). If you never lift heavy--as in pushing your body up to and past plateaus--your body never experiences certain types of hormesis. And heavy is relative. I wouldn't recommend some 70-year-old woman be deadlifting 300lbs, but there should be a certain amount of strength exercise that actually...exerci
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And how does this have any bearing? I was responding to a claim that any lifespan gained would be spent in exercising. Which isn't the case unless you are way overdoing it.
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Your comment should be: Oh, shut the fuck up, for Christ's sake. Get a life!
Re: Easy life (Score:2)
In Finland, everybody has a sauna at home. You don't go to a spa for that. I live next door, in Estonia, and i also have a sauna at home.
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These aren't spas. In Finland, people have them in their homes, sometimes at work, I even had one in a hotel room. Even for a commercial sauna the cost is very low.
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Since it isn't uncommon to have saunas in the house/apartment in Finland, I fail to see what going to "the fucking spa" has to do with it.
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And how do we know that the real benefit doesn't come from hitting yourself with birch branches?
Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:2)
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A sauna isn't a hot tub. At least not in Finland. It's sweating in a hot room.
But controlling for socioeconomic level and prior indications of health and healthy lifestyle should be considered. Maybe the reason why some Finns get to the sauna more often is because they're healthy enough to get out, or have time enough to get out.
Or maybe sweating in a hot room improves circulation, promotes healing and shoves the balance of microorganisms that colonize your skin in a healthier direction.
Maybe it just kil
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Maybe the reason why some Finns get to the sauna more often is because they're healthy enough to get out, or have time enough to get out.
I don't think there's any correlation between a healthy lifestyle and frequent sauna sessions. At least not in Finland where it's clear that not even the most obese men are ashamed of their bodies when they go to the sauna - with a beer (or two) in hand.
Re:Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:5, Informative)
A sauna isn't a hot tub. At least not in Finland. It's sweating in a hot room.
Where a real sauna is typically kept around 90C/194F (and some hotter), an American "sauna" is rarely above 60C/140F, and usually less. And they wear swim trunks and bikinis in it.
In a real sauna, you can't wear clothes, and particularly not synthetics, because it's too hot.
The funny thing is that a good hot sauna feels less hot. Your body goes into sauna mode, something it can never do at an American "sauna". You only feel the warmth in your lungs, or if you touch some new piece of furniture. I have often sat with teeth clattering and goose bumps in a sauna, because my ambient temperature sensors had turned off.
Half an hour in a real sauna is something I truly miss.
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90C? Don't you start to cook at that temperature? What the hell.
Re:Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:4, Informative)
No, you don't start to cook. All your sweat and sebum glands go into high production, and your circulatory system works in cooling mode. But yes, one of the fun experiments is to bring a piece of raw meat in with you in the sauna, and set it aside. After a while, the meat is done, but you're not.
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I've seen some of the people going into the sauna. I'm pretty sure you'd get done.
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You're American, right?
Am asking, since before going to the US, I've never seen a sauna at less than 90C, yet in the US, I never saw one above 60C.
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Even at over 100C you don't cook. I have been in a low humidity 105C sauna when I was younger. Sessions of over an hour.
You have to build up to it or your sweat glands won't be able to keep up.
Re:Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:4, Informative)
If that were true, I've been cooked quite a couple of times :-)
BUT - a sauna needs to be VERY dry (less than 20% humidity). Normal humidity and 90C would indeed cook you.
BAH, humbug.
it's quite the contrary, we (finns) throw water to stove, which boils immediately forming steam (löyly) which fills the 'sauna room' (löylyhuoneen).
Humidity is well over 80% there in well warmed up sauna all the time and when that water is thrown (half a pint of more) it will quite rapidly go above 90% humidity.
If you have been in a place where someone calls it sauna and it's unlike that, it's not a proper finnish sauna, not even close.
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Considering the drinking habits of the Finns I've known, I'm not sure I want to be copying their health regime.
I've known some big drinkers, but Finns are in a class by themselves.
Re:Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:4, Informative)
it's quite the contrary, we (finns) throw water to stove, which boils immediately forming steam (löyly) which fills the 'sauna room' (löylyhuoneen). Humidity is well over 80% there in well warmed up sauna all the time and when that water is thrown (half a pint of more) it will quite rapidly go above 90% humidity.
If you have been in a place where someone calls it sauna and it's unlike that, it's not a proper finnish sauna, not even close.
I'm not sure how exactly the (relative) humidity percentages translate to human perception, but from the experience as a Finn, the effect of humidity varies a lot. When you toss water on the stove, there's your familiar (for /. audiences) heat pipe effect: evaporation at the stove, condensation on your skin, meaning a rapid burst-mode transfer of heat into you. But this only lasts a couple of seconds, and you'll generally spend minutes relaxing in the moderate heat in between tosses.
The ideal temperature and humidity also depends heavily on the size and build of the sauna. Smaller ones are generally fine with lower air temperatures, presumably because the heat pipe effect will be better focused.
Of course, ideal humidities and temperatures really come down to preferences, and the watering frequency also provides a lot of control, there's really no need for extreme heat if that's not your thing. IMHO, the sauna is first and foremost about relaxation, even a kind of meditation, and presumably that's an important factor on health.
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Apparently it is sort of both.
There is a difference between relative [wikipedia.org] and absolute humidity [wikipedia.org]. The former is related to the the dew point [wikipedia.org].
If I understand it correctly, higher temperature (faster movement) of the water molecules raises the amount of molecules (in a volume of air) that need to be present to form water droplets. The amount of molecules in a certain volume of air is the absolute humidity, which can be very high in (Finnish) saunas. Due to the high temperature, however, no water droplets are formed
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"Aufguss"? Is that like a sex thing? I couldn't find it on Urban Dictionary.
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Literally translated: "pour on". As in pour water over the heater so it evaporates and increases the air humidity.
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Hotter than the boiling point of water? I would think your eyeballs would explode or something.
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What's the average life span of Finns?
What's the average life span of Americans?
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Out of curiosity, are those saunas dry or steam? I would think a steam sauna at those temperatures would make it rather difficult for your body to cool itself adequately.
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Of course. I would bet that you'd get the same results from people who spend an hour doing tai chi or meditating or just relaxing on the back porch with a good book.
But I can't remember, is the sauna the one where naked people whip each other with eucalyptus leaves or is that the steam bath? Or is that something from a nightmare?
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The abstract of the research only goes as far as to say there are "links" and that "further studies" are warranted.
Even the Grauniad only goes so far as to say that it "suggests" that saunas help you live longer, as does the Slashdot summary.
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I'm sure the oily fish they eat helps a lot too.
Here we go again - confusing correlation with a causal relationship.
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I'm not sure we'll ever find causation in a complex system such as human life, beyond the very simple and obvious. Ie. as someone said it is not clear that there is an arrow of causality from A to B. If B (a person's life) depends on a bajillion other factors, what influence could a single A (sauna) have that could be demonstrated and isolated? Unless A is something obvious like ingesting cyanide.
I think the point of these studies is more like, if something has been done for a long time (eg. sauna in modera
Finns NEED sauna to sweat (Score:2)
People in less colder climes sweat without trying.
Re:Relaxing = Live longer? (Score:4, Informative)
Consider that Finland has something like 5 million people and 3 million saunas. Virtually almost *everyone* can go to sauna almost any time of the day with flick of a switch and waiting for 20-30 minutes for sauna to heat up..
And what about hot showers and hot baths... (Score:2)
I don't see why sauna's would be somehow different.
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I don't see why sauna's would be somehow different.
More time spent in the heat and no risk of drowning.
Smoking Hot Blondes (Score:5, Insightful)
Especially when the sauna is filled with naked Scandinavian women.
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Too bad that sauna is usually single-sex in Finland.
They're a bit on the prudish side :)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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From my own experience in Finland, I can't really agree.
Re:Smoking Hot Blondes (Score:4, Informative)
"Finnish Sauna" is often used as a label for a particular type of Sauna at a good bath house. Hot, dry heat (and very hot at that -- often in excess of 100F), often with a roaring fire in the center. You'll also have other types of saunas (steam saunas, infared saunas, etc.), some of which are also associated with a country (Russian Sauna, Turkish Sauna, etc.). And if you pick the right country, the sauna will both be co ed, and naked. (Remember those shirts from the 90s?)
I recommend Spa Zuiver [zuiveramsterdam.nl] in Amsterdam. Everyone will be naked, you can go into naked jacuzzis together, and it's a wonderfully relaxing experience.
Of course, before you book your ticket with thoughts of a hedon's paradise, you should know a few things.
1. The sauna is not a pick up place. The chances of meeting a hot woman there and turning it into something are quite small.
2. For every hot woman who you will be happy to see naked, there will be four old women or men
3. Staring is not something to be done. However, if you happen to be sitting in a place where you see everything, and someone comes in, well that's OK.
4. You will be naked too. And your beauty will be judging you as well.
5. There will be a bar. And food service. While you can't drink in the pools, where else can you drink around a bunch of naked people?
But, if you'd never been, I'd highly recommend it. A day at the sauna makes you feel incredible. Really. And muscle soreness will just disappear. It's quite amazing (try a sauna after your work outs sometime)
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As AC has already mentioned, 100F is not that hot. England's record temperature is 101.3F, for example, recorded in Kent.
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Yup. I went to convert it to F and forgot to change it. Mea Culpa
I prefer a shorter life without some fat guys junk (Score:3, Funny)
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As is true in real estate, the quality of life depends largely on your neighborhood.
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So stay away from full-length mirrors.
Research Suggests (Score:5, Insightful)
That being happy and relaxed every now and then can prolong your life.
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Actually I think it may be the opposite. Saunas are not really places for relaxation. Your heart rate is high and when you do it like the Finns you will shock your body quite severely with long warm up periods, sudden humidity spike then a sudden temperature drop outside in a cold shower, or rolling naked in the snow.
didn't the romans figure this out long ago? (Score:3)
they had hot baths thousands of years ago
Re:didn't the romans figure this out long ago? (Score:5, Funny)
And how many are still alive ?
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They had hot baths because otherwise they didn't bathe.
Global warming (Score:2)
So, we should not be afraid of Global Warming, if in conjunction with High Humidity ?
I have severe headaches when temperature rises above ~32C (about ~90F). Not sure those finnish sauna would help me at all.
The wrong conclusion was drawn (Score:3, Interesting)
The wrong conclusion was drawn from this observational study. Saunas are very stressful. People who are weak can not tolerate many saunas and therefore avoid them. Healthy people don't have a problem with them and take more of them. Saunas didn't make them healthy, saunas just weeded out the unhealthy.
It's similar to the incorrect conclusion that 6 cups of coffee a day prevents diabetes. The truth is that caffeine makes people with blood sugar problems shaky so they avoid coffee. While people with no blood sugar problems can drink a lot of it because it makes them feel good. The coffee didn't prevent diabetes in them, it's just that the non-diabetics are are drawn to coffee and the diabetics avoid it, thus the results of an observational study being interpreted wrong (as most are).
All observational studies are suspect and should not be used as the basis of behavior modification.
Re:The wrong conclusion was drawn (Score:4, Insightful)
People who are weak can not tolerate many saunas and therefore avoid them. Healthy people don't have a problem with them and take more of them. Saunas didn't make them healthy, saunas just weeded out the unhealthy.
You obviously have not been into public sauna in Finland if you claim that only healthy people go there..
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The wrong conclusion was drawn from this observational study. Saunas are very stressful. People who are weak can not tolerate many saunas and therefore avoid them. Healthy people don't have a problem with them and take more of them.
Meanwhile, in the actual article:
After adjustment for CVD risk factors ...
Mod parent down (Score:4)
recipe for long life (Score:4, Insightful)
Big surprise: People that take time out of their day for things they enjoy and self-care live longer. Who knew?
So, someone who has the time and financial resources to spend an hour in a sauna probably has a long list of factors that will contribute to longer life, none of which involve the life-giving effects of sitting in a hot box.
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You're talking about a country with a very high standard of living and well-distributed wealth. Yes, it has to do with financial resources.
Isolated Causes (Score:3)
I hate gender bias in studies (Score:4, Insightful)
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For fucks sake. Guess what, gender specific studies are sometimes done with women too. Restricting variables helps make studies more useful statistically.
If you want to get angry about gender imbalance in medicine, try looking at breast cancer research vs prostate cancer research.
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Skewed Results (Score:5, Insightful)
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Indeed, candidate selection has as much to do with outcomes as anything else when you select only 2000 people for your study. What is the mix or city dwellers, office workers, those having outdoor activities, daily walks or not, healthy diets & drugs or not? It can get iffy real quick.
I can believe the researchers tried to get a mixed profile, but it would be good to read the participant selection survey results.
Straight from Captain Obvious Health News (Score:2)
Just in: Training your circular system regularly with strong temperature fluctuations help you live longer vis-a-vis just sitting on your fat ass all day long and doing nothing. Film at 11. ... Seriously, this was news in the 70ies when the Sauna boom started but it's common sense today.
Sidenote: I've picked up the habit of showering cold after each shower half a year ago. Does wonders to my wellbeing and my imune system. My colds and allergy issues are way down and my overall well-being has notably improve
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Tai Chi! (Score:2)
I live in Houston (Score:2)
I'm going to live forever!
Yes, but how do you pronounce "sauna"? (Score:2)
S-AW-na?
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S-OW-na? S-AW-na?
The first one is closer to the original Finnish pronunciation (Finnish spelling is basically IPA), but we don't mind if you use the second one. There's no confusion with other words, especially if you otherwise speak English.