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Power Science

Fusion Reactor Concept Could Be Cheaper Than Coal 315

vinces99 writes Fusion energy almost sounds too good to be true – zero greenhouse gas emissions, no long-lived radioactive waste, a nearly unlimited fuel supply. Perhaps the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy is that the economics haven't penciled out. Fusion power designs aren't cheap enough to outperform systems that use fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas. University of Washington engineers hope to change that. They have designed a concept for a fusion reactor that, when scaled up to the size of a large electrical power plant, would rival costs for a new coal-fired plant with similar electrical output. The team published its reactor design and cost-analysis findings last spring and will present results Oct. 17 at the International Atomic Energy Agency's Fusion Energy Conference in St. Petersburg, Russia.
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Fusion Reactor Concept Could Be Cheaper Than Coal

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  • by Spy Handler ( 822350 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @12:57PM (#48094375) Homepage Journal

    2034.

  • Costs (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BarbaraHudson ( 3785311 ) <barbara.jane.hud ... minus physicist> on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @12:59PM (#48094385) Journal
    They predict that the costs will be comparable to a coal-fired plant. Even if it ends up costing more, it might be worth it because the coal-fired plant isn't being held accountable for all the externalities of coal-fired plants - the extra deaths due to pollution, etc. Hopefully this time "in 20 years" will really be true.
    • I'm not holding my breath -- fusion power has been 20-30 years away since the 70s.

      • Hmmm ... I'm going with "fusion power has been 10-15 years away since the 50s".

        It's been known about [cosmosmagazine.com] since the 30s.

      • Re:Costs (Score:5, Funny)

        by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:35PM (#48094927) Journal

        I'm not holding my breath -- fusion power has been 20-30 years away since the 70s.

        In fairness, fusion power works just fine if you scale it up. It's just the attempts to make it work in systems that don't weight ~2x10^29kg or more that haven't been so hot.

        • I say we put on our figurative cowboy hats and literally lasso the nearest 2*10^29kg mass of mostly hydrogen we can find.

          • Re:Costs (Score:5, Funny)

            by adonoman ( 624929 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:56PM (#48095281)
            We'd obviously have to situate it off-world and use some sort of electromagnetic beam to send the generated energy to earth. Heck, given the amount of extra power generated, we could just send off the energy everywhere and there'd still be enough hitting the earth. We could then use devices here to convert that energy into electricity.
            • Re:Costs (Score:5, Funny)

              by rasmusbr ( 2186518 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @03:29PM (#48096495)

              We'd obviously have to situate it off-world and use some sort of electromagnetic beam to send the generated energy to earth. Heck, given the amount of extra power generated, we could just send off the energy everywhere and there'd still be enough hitting the earth. We could then use devices here to convert that energy into electricity.

              I oppose this idea, especially out of care for the children. I think the giant fusion reactor would have to be situated too close to schools and nature preserves and other sensitive areas and I don't think the radiation risks have been thoroughly analyzed and quantified.

              Look, I'm not opposed to giant balls of hydrogen as long as you build them in suitable places. There are many examples where they have put them light-years away from Earth, where there aren't any schools or preschools, and I'm all in favor of those ones.

              • This. I have seen first hand what happens to our poor children in schools which are being bombarded by ionising radiation. I have seen one poor child come home with skin bright red. Can you believe it!

                NIMSS (Not In My Solar System)

            • Re:Costs (Score:5, Funny)

              by Livius ( 318358 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @03:33PM (#48096551)

              If it's off-world, we could use the radiation and some catalysts to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugars and oxygen, and ferment it under pressure and heat for a few million years until it's in an easy-to-use portable form.

          • I think it lasso'd us pretty good already :)

      • Re:Costs (Score:5, Insightful)

        by oh_my_080980980 ( 773867 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:39PM (#48094989)
        Considering the US doesn't invest a lot of money in fusion R&D the way we do oil, it's not surprising.
    • by mlts ( 1038732 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:08PM (#48094507)

      Costs are a big issue, but the problem with fusion is getting more energy than is put in... and keeping that reaction sustained indefinitely. Yes, one can get energy out, and sometimes more energy out for a brief bit with a tiny gold-plated capsule... but there is a huge jump from pulverizing a mini-nugget with a big boom to having a reactor that you can turn on, and let it power stuff on an indefinite basis. Same difference between an explosion from TNT and the small, controlled explosions pushing pistons down in an IC engine.

      In the TFA, supposedly their dynomak [1] actually does a sustained reaction, but the key is how sustained. Even at a couple kilowatts, if it can just sit there and act as a steam turbine, it will power a UPS for a long time. Scaling up to megawatts is where it solves the big problems, because it can power desalination plants to keep California habitable and other things which are energy/cost prohibitive as of now.

      As always, I hope this succeeds. Energy is money, and the more energy available, the more a country and a people can do.

      [1]: Is it that different from a tokamak which have been in use for decades?

      • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:24PM (#48094747)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • You mean more environmental damage do to using fossil fuels? Because we thought about the environmental impact of those fuels? *eye roll*
        • by mlts ( 1038732 )

          We can solve that problem when we come to it. Right now, on a medium to long term basis, the goal is reducing greenhouse gas emissions, as waste heat is far secondary from the heat trapped via CO2, methane, and other gases. Waste heat can be an issue, but a society that will run into issues with it will have a lot better technology than what we have now, and could solve the problem. Right now, our civilization is in peril because of the burning of fossil fuels, and the conflict that obtaining access to t

        • by exploder ( 196936 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:44PM (#48095059) Homepage

          Simple: with unlimited energy, we can run every air conditioner on the planet 24/7, fixing global warming as a side effect!

        • by wagnerrp ( 1305589 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @03:16PM (#48096301)

          In the long run, however, I wonder if the arrival of convenient fusion will mark the start of issues with waste heat.

          No. Current solar absorption (accounting for albedo) is on the order of 50PW. By comparison, current peak world wide energy production is a paltry few TW. We're several orders of magnitude away from the point where our civilization's thermal output becomes a concern.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:31PM (#48094871)

        An academic reactor or reactor plant almost always has the following basic characteristics: (1) It is simple. (2) It is small. (3) It is cheap. (4) It is light. (5) It can be built very quickly. (6) It is very flexible in purpose. (7) Very little development will be required. It will use off-the-shelf components. (8) The reactor is in the study phase. It is not being built now.

        On the other hand a practical reactor can be distinguished by the following characteristics: (1) It is being built now. (2) It is behind schedule. (3) It requires an immense amount of development on apparently trivial items. (4) It is very expensive. (5) It takes a long time to build because of its engineering development problems. (6) It is large. (7) It is heavy. (8) It is complicated.

      • by naasking ( 94116 )

        Costs are a big issue, but the problem with fusion is getting more energy than is put in... and keeping that reaction sustained indefinitely.

        I think the real problem is how much we've fixated on only one or two fusion reactor designs for decades. Plasmas are hard to control, hence why it's taking so long to materialize real fusion power. They've pursued the Tokamak too long I think, but they keep going after it because they're already so heavily invested. Time for some fresh thinking.

      • by bigpat ( 158134 )
        If their design and the math checks out, then it is easily worth $2.7 billion to validate the design by constructing a full size reactor. Heck add another billion to the budget just in case.
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by towermac ( 752159 )

        This subject makes me wish I had the math background, because I sure don't see it.

        The energy available via fusion is exactly why you will never be able to contain it using any sort of force. It will always take more power to contain than it creates. Otherwise, you would see see self-contained fusion somewhere, under some circumstances, in nature.

        You might think the Sun is an example, but it is not self contained. Gravity contains it, which you get for free simply by having mass. With or without fusion, the

        • by radtea ( 464814 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @02:51PM (#48095947)

          This subject makes me wish I had the math background, because I sure don't see it.

          This comment makes me wish you had a math background too.

          You are actually doing math when you make the assertion that fusion "will always take more power to contain than it creates". You're doing lots of things, including physics and probably chemistry. Unfortunately, you seem to be doing all of them based on what your imagination tells you, and as we know from 300 years of science and 3000 years of pre-science, what "just makes sense" in our imaginations has nothing much to do with what is real.

          You are correct to say that containment in stars is free. You have no basis for saying that it is impossible to produce an artificial containment that uses substantially less power than is produced by the fusion processes within it. That is a mathematical assertion about the physics of fusion:

          Pfusion Pcontainment

          That is the math you are doing, without any attempt to make it physically plausible.

          Nor is the lack of non-stellar containment in nature much of an argument. Want to know what else doesn't exist in nature? Reciprocating steam engines. Repeating rifles. Spaceships. Digital computers. Yet mysteriously we have all those things, and more. It's almost as if humans, informed by physics, are capable of making machines that instantiate processes that otherwise do not exist.

          Whether fusion is one of those processes remains to be seen. It is clearly a hard problem, but the jury is still well out on its ultimate feasibility.

      • by MarkvW ( 1037596 )

        Energy is more than money. It is power--in all senses of the word.

    • namely, nobody is building any because the cost to mitigate the source pollution is so damn high, and going higher. so this generally-clocked-out concept fusion reactor, not-to-scale, would be tied with the second-highest cost of MWH production possible.

      great news, I'm ordering 15 of these, bill to my account at the East Bank of the Mississippi. let's get those in production by December 1st, this year, also.

    • Those extra costs that you mention them be Liberal Sissy Hippy Talk.

      Not that I disagree with you, however in order to get real change you need to show the savings in dollars, not in difficult to quantify values.
      Deaths due to pollution vs deaths not due to pollution, hard to quantify.

      When you say you save $1,000,000 a year vs. Saying a 25% mean decrease in death +/-5% margin of error.

      What helped the growth of Hybrid Cars, Energy Efficient Lightings, Etc... isn't the feel good about being green, But the fact

  • Make it cheaper than Fracked Natural Gas and you have something.
    • by Ksevio ( 865461 )
      They're comparing the initial construction costs to that of a coal plant. Actually running the plant would be cheaper than coal or natural gas.
  • by rlp ( 11898 )

    From the article:
    "The team has filed patents on the reactor concept with the UWâ(TM)s Center for Commercialization ...
    The research was funded by the U.S. Department of Energy."

    • US patents only last 20 years. If they actually get an economically viable reactor up & working within 20 years (and even the bit more it takes the patent to work its way through to issuance), I'm OK with them having a patent for the rest of the 20, despite the fact they got govt help at this stage. The improved externalities are sufficient public good in my opinion.

    • Re:Patents? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by the gnat ( 153162 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:13PM (#48094587)

      This has been legal for at least 34 years [wikipedia.org]. As someone who has to deal with the consequences of Bayh-Dole on a regular basis, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it causes universities to lock up a lot of basic research as restricted IP, which holds back progress and actually makes it more difficult for the results to reach the market. Or, even worse, the inventors (or eventual IP holders) treat it as a money-making machine and are basically using using the federal funding to do product development. (As opposed to using federal funding to come up with the initial concept, then private funding to develop the product.)

      On the other hand, for something that's extremely capital-intensive to develop, where commercialization requires orders of magnitude more funding than the government initially provided, no one is going to invest the money required unless they're guaranteed exclusivity. This is certainly one of those cases. The alternative is for the DOE, or the UW, to invest $2.8 billion of its own money (which, ultimately, is other people's money) developing a commercial-scale reactor - and that still doesn't really get it to "market".

  • Concepts are practically free.

    As long as you never build anything, free is always "cheaper than coal"...

  • Wait... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Hazelfield ( 1557317 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:15PM (#48094609)
    I thought the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy was that it doesn't work?

    (I'd like to be positive and add "yet" to that sentence, but still.)
    • I thought the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy was that it doesn't work?

      See that big yellow thing up in the sky?

      • I thought the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy was that it doesn't work?

        See that big yellow thing up in the sky?

        He means without having to have a reaction mass the size of a star ...

      • I thought the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy was that it doesn't work?

        See that big yellow thing up in the sky?

        Yeah, see where it is? 96,000,000 miles away. We have fusion bombs, we know how to cause fusion. It's containing it, sustaining the "reaction", and harvesting the energy - in a net positive way - that's the problem. Right now, we have those problems mostly solved, it's just that the energy needed to contain the fusing plasma cloud exceeds the energy created by the fusing plasma cloud. So we're losing on "net positive".

        Hopefully this design will fix all that. If it's true that they can build one for $2

        • Yeah, see where it is? 96,000,000 miles away.

          They moved it last night???

          It was only 93,000,000 miles (149.6Gm) away as recently as yesterday....

      • I'm pretty sure building a replica of that big yellow thing is more expensive than a coal-fired plant.

        I have a better idea, why not use the energy of the existing one!? We could build some kind of antenna that collects the energy. In fact, we could build lots them all over the world! Sure, there are some practical issues, but I'm not sure they are harder to solve than building a working fusion reactor.

    • by bigpat ( 158134 )
      tell that to the sun
      • And your idea for containing a sun and capturing it's output is what? It's the "adopting" part you seem to have ignored.

    • That would be Cold Fusion.
      The type of fusion where the energy goes most nearly into electricity. The problem with current fusion is the heat it creates often damages the containers of it, so it will need to be replaced all the time.

      Fusion we can do that... Get it so it doesn't melt the equipment meant to collect it isn't

      • The heat generated by a stable fusion reaction is so great, there isn't a material around that wouldn't melt. That's why it has to be contained magnetically to keep from coming into contact with the walls of the container.

        In the early days of fusion research, when it was thought to be just around the corner, it was a popular suggestion to use fusion reactors as a means of waste disposal. Just vent the plasma onto your waste, and it'll be broken down to constituent elements.

      • That would be Cold Fusion. The type of fusion where the energy goes most nearly into electricity.

        That's aneutronic fusion, not cold fusion (it tends to be even hotter than neutronic fusion).

    • It works just fine. And the theory says that it'll work at reactor-size scales as well. But you're right in the sense that we don't yet know how to make it work. The biggest issues aren't economic ones, but engineering issues.
  • Aside from not knowing how to build the reactor, it's a great idea. We should fund some research to get by the proverbial step, "and then a miracle occurs."
  • One imagine that in one took an ant colony, scaled it up to many colonies, and harnassed it's power output, it might be able to get a gigawatt more cheaply than a coal fired plant.

    I see three problems here. First, this is a press release, so it has all the validity of any press release, in other words nothing. Second, nothing has been built, at least nothing approaching a gigawatt, and no way to know if the design will really scale to a gigawatt. Third, they are comparing the real cost of building a coa

  • They have designed a concept for a fusion reactor that, when scaled up to the size of a large electrical power plant, would rival costs for a new coal-fired plant with similar electrical output.

    Ummm, how about building a working reactor first. Then we can talk about cost and scaling and other practical considerations. Until they build one that works and puts out more energy than it consumes it is pure science fiction.

  • Considering that it was HUGE news when a fusion reactor managed to achieve unity (as much out as was put in), I'm not holding my breath waiting for a production plant.

    That said, I do believe that Fusion power is our last, best, hope for the medium term survival of humanity. You can solve a LOT of the world's problems with low-cost pollution-free electrical generation.

    Of course, it still doesn't solve the distribution-network problem, or the energy-density issue for transportation, but it does solve plenty

  • by bhlowe ( 1803290 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @01:31PM (#48094881)
    A new analysis and report on Andrea Rossi's E-Cat reactor suggests a new type of nuclear reaction may be real. http://matslew.wordpress.com/2... [wordpress.com] A new Hydrogen-Nickel-Lithium fuel source may be in our future...
    • E-Cat is bullshit. The most prevalent isotope of nickel is Ni-58. If could somehow add a proton to Ni-58 you would get copper 59, (Cu-59). Cu-59 has an 81.5 second half life and decays to Ni-59 via positron emission. Nickel 59 is unstable and decays via electron capture to cobalt 59 (Co-59) with a half life if 76,000 years. The second most prevalent isotope of nickel is nickel-60 (Ni-60). If you add somehow add a proton to Ni-60 it becomes copper 61 (Cu-61) which decays to nickel 61 (Ni-61) via positron emi
      • Re:Cold Fusion News (Score:5, Informative)

        by bhlowe ( 1803290 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @03:34PM (#48096579)
        Ni -> Cu is no longer claimed.. Now what is claimed is that the secret ingredient, Lithium is the core of the reaction... and might be more accurately called a lithium neutron transfer. (Ni58->Ni62 and Li7->Li6) ? But don't quote me..

        Read the report..
        http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe... [sifferkoll.se]

        There are open source replication attempts going on now. Time will tell.

        But my hope meter has gone up again... and this appears to be a new nuclear process.

  • Let's see one built. Heck, let's see several built — by competing private concerns funded by the investors' own monies. Then we can discuss their relative merits and make fun of predictions, that it is "highly unlikely" [slashdot.org] for humans of 2035 to be able to generate five times the amount of electricity we generated in 2010.

  • > Fusion power designs aren't cheap enough to outperform systems that use fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas.

    Well, that, and sustained fusion has not been achieved yet. That's kinda like saying "Pixie Dust will never replace coal because they cost too many Altairian Dollars per Ngogn", enthusiastically passing over the slight but persistent issue that pixies don't exist.

  • Maybe (Score:5, Informative)

    by mbone ( 558574 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @02:00PM (#48095347)

    First, no long-lived radioactive waste is not quite, not exactly, true for the current Deuterium Tritium fusion reactors (which ITER is, and I assume this new U Washington fusion reactor is as well). DT fusion produces neutrons and neutrons can't be controlled and thus go off and hit things (steel in the containment vessel, for example), which both weakens the steel, and makes it radioactive. So, after a while you have a junk old reactor that's radioactive. (One of the benefits of Helium-3 fusion is that it doesn't produce any neutrons, but it is a long way off without some fundamental breakthroughs.)

    Second, fusion is like the Internet - the one question you always have to ask is, "will it scale?". (Will plasma instabilities kill your attempt to make a small lab experiment with some confinement into a viable large scale source of power.) Fusion has a long, long history of cool ideas that did not scale, and I do not regard a press release as proof of their having cracked that problem.

  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2014 @02:24PM (#48095615) Homepage

    Here's the project conference poster. [wordpress.com] "Total equipment cost for the development path is less than $1 billion". Nothing on the poster, though, indicates why this should work. It's yet another torus-based design, of which there have been many. The best performance to date is from the Joint European Torus: "In 1997, JET produced a peak of 16.1MW of fusion power (65% of input power), with fusion power of over 10MW sustained for over 0.5 sec."

    All torus designs run into plasma instability problems. So far, nobody has a working solution. Nobody even has a good theoretical solution. No combination of fixed magnets has yet worked. There's some modest interest in active feedback for stabilization, and some modest success [nih.gov] has been reported. The instabilities are on the order of milliseconds, so active feedback is quite feasible.

    Even ITER probably won't work. [jp-petit.org] The thinking behind ITER was originally "maybe it will become more stable if we make it bigger." Now, a little "maybe the feedback control people can make it work" has been added. It's not looking good, which is why there really isn't that much enthusiasm for ITER.

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