Bioethicist At National Institutes of Health: "Why I Hope To Die At 75" 478
HughPickens.com writes Ezekiel J. Emanuel, director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at the US National Institutes of Health, writes at The Atlantic that there is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. "It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic." Emanuel says that he is isn't asking for more time than is likely nor foreshortening his life but is talking about the kind and amount of health care he will consent to after 75. "Once I have lived to 75, my approach to my health care will completely change. I won't actively end my life. But I won't try to prolong it, either." Emanuel says that Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible. "I reject this aspiration. I think this manic desperation to endlessly extend life is misguided and potentially destructive. For many reasons, 75 is a pretty good age to aim to stop."
The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
"hope I die before I get old".... until I get old, that is, and then I expect to scrap life along as much as humanly possible.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't say how I will feel at 75 but already at 55 I'm thinking that I'm not all that desperate to live forever. What's the point of living when their is no real enjoyment? When it hurts to get out of bed and you can't go and do what you want when you want? When you aren't living but just existing and waiting to die? I can see his point easily enough. I'm pretty sure that if I get cancer after 70 I'm just going to start the bucket list. I don't want to be 90 laying in bed waiting for someone to come change my diaper.
Re:The WHO (Score:4, Insightful)
"What's the point of living when their is no real enjoyment?"
This is not some "universal" state -- there will be less things to enjoy, but most likely there will still be enjoyment.
"When it hurts to get out of bed and you can't go and do what you want when you want?"
Then you change your expectation of yourself. You DON'T go and do what you want WHEN you want. You rely more on others and your world will grow "smaller". So long as long as the pain can be managed...
"When you aren't living but just existing and waiting to die?"
That's something else. If you are stuck on a machine completely unable to interact with the world around you, then yes. But that needs to be two-way -- there must be someone on the OTHER end of that (family or friends) who want to interact with you.
"I can see his point easily enough."
I can UNDERSTAND his point. I don't AGREE with it. I'm not saying "forced life" under any condition, of course.
"I'm pretty sure that if I get cancer after 70 I'm just going to start the bucket list."
My mother-in-law has cancer. She's 80. Aside from age related dementia (and the limitations that come along with that) she's doing great and enjoying her home, garden, family and life in general.
"I don't want to be 90 laying in bed waiting for someone to come change my diaper."
Ever read "Tuesday's with Morrie"? I like his outlook on life when HE came to having someone else wipe his arse.
A man goes to the Senior Center (Score:5, Funny)
Woman says to him, "You look new here, where were you before?"
Man says, "I just was released from a long prison term . . . for killing my wife."
"Oh, so you're single, then!"
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I never could. I thanked God when they did away with that 55MPH crap. So many tickets only a tour in Europe kept me from losing my license.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Interesting)
My parents are both 75+.
And still doing fine.
Yeah, they've slowed down a bit, and have some aches and pains they didn't have 20 years ago. But they still walk the dog a mile or so each day. And Dad still mows five acres (give or take, the treeline could have moved some over the last decade) of his yard weekly.
I think this bioethicist bozo is forgetting that "75" is life expectancy at birth. If you make it to 75 today, odds are good you've got another decade or two in you*. And if you're born today, by the time you're 75, you should have four or five decades left*.
* barring unpredictable things like terminal cancer, of course.
Note that my wife's parents were both born in the early 1920's, and both lasted into this decade. Arguably, they'd have both been better off to have died a year earlier than they did (in both cases, their last year was pretty bad), but that still meant 85+ good years starting from before the Great Depression....
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And if you're born today, by the time you're 75, you should have four or five decades left*.
Based on current trends and short of a major breakthru there is no way someone born today will live to be 120-130.
We've gotten pretty good at extending the quality of life and even getting more people past the 100 goalpost but
we've made little or no progress on actually extending life to any significant extent. 100 seems to be the age that
no matter what you do and how healthy you appear to be that you start having multiple system failures.
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The fact that 3 out 4 of my grandparents lived into their late nineties (one died in a flu epidemic), one of my great grandparents lived well into her late nineties and my father is still going at 99 fills me with terror. There is no way that I want to live that long.
If I'm in real good shape, that's one thing. I suspect that I might end up needing a lot of Vicoden, because at 60, my old Ice Hockey days have caught up with me.
ACL, MCL, Broken ankle, torn ankle ligaments, osteoarthritis, trigger finger, lower back general injury, and tendonitis in the elbows.
But I'd do it all again. After all:
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally wor
Re:The WHO (Score:4, Insightful)
My parents are both 75+.
And still doing fine.
Mine are dead. Doing okay for charcoal, I suppose.
As humans, I think that we tend to not see far past our noses. Your's being healthy hale and hearty parents doesn't really mean much, because as I note, for every human living a wonderful happy and healthy existence well beyond normal, there are those who don't.
And if this gentleman doesn't see much utility to living past 75, well, that's his business. If you want to fight kicking and screaming too the last breath, well, that's yours.
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You are absolutely correct about life expectancy. At birth, per the Social Security Administration's actuarial tables, men have a life expectancy of 76.1 and women 80.94.
From there it never appears to go down (it is flat a couple of times, age 9-10 for both genders; add actual age and expectancy then diff over time). At no point is your full life expectancy, per standardized tables, at or below 75. At 75 the men and women life expectancy's are 85.89 and 87.77 respectively. Women are expected to live lon
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a lot of medical professionals carry this opinion, or a similar one, precisely because they see, every day, what the reality is of old age.
and they dont change their minds; rather they are one of the largest grous with settled views on it who already know what they want and how they want to go.
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a lot of medical professionals carry this opinion, or a similar one, precisely because they see, every day, what the reality is of old age. and they dont change their minds;
So, there are a bunch of 75+ year old ex-medical professionals that are ready to die? I somehow find that hard to believe. Those same medical professionals also see, on a regular basis, 80 and 90+ year olds that live quite enjoyable lives. The 'reality of old age' differs for everyone, medical professionals should know that better than anyone.
Re:The WHO (Score:4, Interesting)
It's easy to sit back from my position and say that, but I would imagine that my opinions would change if the vast majority of my day were spent being confronted with what happens to people who don't take care of their bodies or experiencing other illnesses that aren't currently preventable. If nothing else, one would think that this would motivate medical professionals to take good care of their health, so they can avoid finding themselves in that position.
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His crystal will be red by then, it's not like he's going to have any choice about it.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
My thoughts exactly. He'll change his mind.
Quite likely, especially since his basic premise is wrong. Many people get dementia as they age, but many others don't. It is not inevitable. I know bright, active people in their 90s. We are making a lot of progress at understanding the causes of Alzheimer's and other debilitating diseases of old age. His future may not be as bleak as he imagines. On the other hand, he may already be losing his grip on reality, since he believes that American are "obsessed" with exercising, and doing mental puzzles. A quick glance at obesity rates, and reality TV popularity, should disabuse him of that belief.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, dementia is a great disease.
At first, only you notice it.
Then everyone else notices it, too.
Then, only everyone around you notices it and you don't.
And then life's great again.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Interesting)
On one of the days when he was doing OK I told him that he was suffering from dementia and that he was talking to people that weren't really there. He was surprised and asked me to repeat that. When I confirmed that on his bad days he was talking to people that weren't really there his response was, "Well, at least I'll never have no one to talk to."
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Informative)
Holy fuck is this WRONG and it's not funny at all.
I worked in a dementia ward and I would not wish that on my worst enemy. It is a truly, staggeringly horrible way to go out. You don't know about the confusion, the pain, the mental trauma this disease causes, do you/ You dont just slip into a blissful state of forgetfulness, you are in a world of torment as your mind fucks you over.
Dementia is a very distressing, traumatic disease and the reason I support assisted suicide. There are things worse than death and dementia is one of them - the piss poor jokes about dementia serve to cover up the horror that patients truly experience. And it is horror, why do you think dementia patients are drugged to the gills?
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
I doubt the GP is drawing those conclusions from the distress of relatives, but rather from direct interaction with dementia patients.
You've never lived with someone who has advanced dementia, have you? I suppose you could be on the autism spectrum and be unable to understand body language that is obvious to everyone else. When you learn how mental trauma translates into actions, you can come to pretty obvious conclusions about the mental state of someone by those same actions, even if they are unable to articulate what's going on in their head.
When someone regularly descends into fits of sobbing when certain things happen, it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that, hey, there's something disturbing this person. You don't need to be in their head to figure out things with other obvious signs.
Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
I was thinking about Larry Ellison being 70 and still wanting to work and in fact, actually wanting to take a position where he can continue to be creative instead of one handling the day to day business.
At the same time, my Grandfather passed away last year at age ninety-one. He was weeks away from being ninety-two. When asked about how old he wanted to live, he responded, "My dad lived to be ninety-two, and I think that's a good age, so I want to be ninety-two."
Towards the end, he was being despondent and spent most of his days sleeping. There were times where he would be lucid and say some fantastic things, but for the most part, I could tell he was ready to go. He had lived a good life. Many of us in the family felt that he was due as he lived his last year in a nursing home and didn't really want to even do that.
I do think that quality of life should be included in decisions to prolong life. Terry Schaivo was a case where there was nearly zero potential to improve her life. Other times, I sense that some of these hospital administrations are doing what they can to bilk insurance companies in order to extend a person's life regardless of the eventuality of their passing. Not to sound completely inhumane, but if a person is going to continue their existence by suffering, are we being humane by prolonging their existence.
There are some cases, like with Stephen Hawking, where an individual wants so much to contribute to the world that they want to exist. Because of this, there should not be any hard limit put in as far as a person's life to which we should consider ending health care.
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Stephen Hawking is a bad example, he was diagnosed with his disease at 21 and doctors said he had two years to live. He went into a depression and felt continuing is studies was pointless. It took him meeting a woman for him to have "something to live for."
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I find that very interesting
Ozzy Osborne, Jonny Cash, and others I can't remember at the moment
It seems finding the right woman has a great affect on some creative peoples lives
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Re:The WHO (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a personal decision, not one he's trying to push on others. Just as those who so choose have the option of living as long as their body holds out, so too should people have the option of not prolonging their life as long as possible.
I have inoperable cancer, and its effects on me are such that at some point I will no longer be able to manage the symptoms to the point that life will not be worth living. I don't want to spend months or years in a narcotic fog to dull the pain enough so I can just keep breathing. Short of spontaneous remission, I will at some point choose to end my own life rather than suffer needlessly. My family is aware of this decision, and I will inform them at the point it is necessary so there are no surprises. I would do the same were my mind degrading to the point it would be clear my existence contributed nothing more than consuming oxygen and taking up space. I've talked to many others who feel exactly the same way. I'm not trying to kill other people based on some arbitrary criteria, but I sure as hell won't accept being kept alive because "all life is sacred." It's not.
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He also had a nationalized health care system.
If he had lived in the US, I doubt very much we'd even know who he is.
Re:The WHO (Score:4, Interesting)
My thoughts exactly. He'll change his mind.
Quite likely, especially since his basic premise is wrong. Many people get dementia as they age, but many others don't. It is not inevitable. I know bright, active people in their 90s.
You see stories about people at 100 years old. It's news because it isn't that common. I know people who are active into their 90's. I know a lot more in their late 70's who are living on maintenance drugs and opiates, riddled with pain pretty well fuzzed out. A little older, and they are starting the dementia trip, with nursing homes at the ready to take their estates.
I think the problem is that people see the outliers, and assume that's how they will age. I don't want people determining the quality of my life by looking at the lucky ones wh oage gracefully. If I do - fine. But I watched enough family members die over a many year period. Not goiing to happen to me unless I catch a stroke that keeps me from exiting with some dignity.
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I have always said I don't want to live longer. I want to age slower.
Your body changes as it ages. I want I slow down those changes
So you have 20-30 year old body until you get to 40. A 30-40 year old body until age 55. A 40-50 yer old body until age 65. A 50-70 year old body until early 70's and then drop off rapidly until you die.
You won't live any longer but you can live better and enjoy being young longer. We age oddly compared to our lifespan. Though it is recent based on medicines. The downside is t
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Renew!
Renew!
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Have you ever met someone who renewed?
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Except they were 37 and he's 57.
Most people are dead by 82 anyway (about 87%).
And almost everyone is dead by 90 (98.4%).
The last few years can be miserable and suicide is more common among the elderly.
While some desperately cling to life the loss of function, increasing pain, and loss of dignity takes the joy out of life for many.
There are two cases..
My grandmother, who was religious, who was basically unable to move and had to be wheeled out to the sun area of the nursing home every day, who suffered fear
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dang it... they were 27.. .and he's 57.
I hate slashdot editing restrictions.
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ask not for whom the bell doesn't chime (Score:2)
I guess you don't have any grandparents who live alone, but can no longer reliably identify their own children. My wife's grandmother recently "celebrated" her ninetieth birthday (I don't use scare quotes lightly). All her "loved ones" showed up. She spent the entire day looking like a four-year-old lost in a giant shopping mall. She didn't know who she was, who anyone else was, where she was (with all the people around, she couldn't id
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And further, I have asked myself, Would I want to be one of my grandparents.
My grandmother is upper 80's, she can no longer form short or medium term memory. Meds help with anger which was an issue early on. She needs a walker and can be coherent (while asking the same questions over).
Her husband is my grandfather, Wib, he turned 90 about a week ago (my son is named after him, their actual name is Wilbur but they will always been known as Wib). He's got his mind and gets around fine, albeit with consider
I agree, 100% (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I agree, 100% (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically what this dickhead is saying is that if you're not valuable to someone for some tangible product, you should just die. He's probably also of the opinion that if you get Muscular Dystrophy in your 30's you should just check out. If you're born with Downs Syndrome, and will always have to be cared for you should just be aborted at birth (murdered). It's not like a severe mental handicap provides the ability to make a "rational" decision to take yourself out of everyone worries about you.
This philosophy relies on the premise that if you aren't providing money, or food, or talent in some field of productivity, that you are also unable to provide (and receive) love, joy and positive experiences. The philosophy is callous and inhuman, ironically coming from a man who will tell you all about how we should behave exactly in a specific way if it can "save just one life".
Emanuel is a dyed in the wool liberal progressive the likes of which Bernard Shaw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lBdyFvPps) would be quite proud of.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBRjU9P5eo
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This is the evil that Emanuel is describing from Bernard Shaw, a Fabian Socialist who defended the actions of the Nazi's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Did you not read, or not understand Shaw's writings on Eugenics? Do you even understand the context of that clip? Since neither clip you posted mentions it (and in fact the first seems to distort it), and neither do you, one can best assume that either you don't understand the context, or are purposefully omitting the context because you know it hurts your comparison "argument".
Shit, did you even bother to read Emanuel's article? He very specifically states
Since the 1990s, I have actively opposed legalizing euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide.
and
I am talking about how long I want to live and the kind and amount of health care I will consent to after 75.
[emphasis his]. He even specifically sta
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I thought liberals are about heavy regulation, not about the freedom to choose.
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"Liberal, a.: Of political opinions: Favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy."
So yes, it is about freedom to choose (which seems to be pleonasm to me - is freedom about anything else than choosing?). In general, I got the impression that political liberals are in favor of regulation mostly when lack of regulation turns the situation in that particular area into a libertarian hell (by not limiting freedom of others to limit yo
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No. that is not what he said.
What he said was specifically about him and HIS plans and viewpoint.
He did not call for these same things to applied to any one else.
He did not call for people to be terminated at birth.
You are attributing a lot of FALSE statements to him.
You are not insightful.
You are a troll.
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From Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dyed-in-the-wool):
The expression "dyed in the wool" refers to a state of steadfastness, especially with respect to one's political, religious or social beliefs. The expression comes from the fact that fabric can be dyed in a number of ways. The woven fabric may be dyed after it is complete, or the threads may be dyed before they are woven. When a color is "dyed in the wool," the wool itself is dyed before being spun into threads, so the colour is least likely to fade or change. (Dyes: Webster’s Quotations, Facts and Phrases. Icon Group International. 2008, p. 344.)"
Ezekiel (like his brother, the mayor of Chicago) is from a family with a history of liberal political activism. In a very direct way he was raised with liberal, and arguably progressive leanings. His formative years (the dying of his wool) developed the philosophies he now holds as a mature adult. He is the product of the dyed wool being utilized to create a product, as opposed to raw wool being used to create a t
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If you don't want to be a financial drain to those you love then you must try to make sure you have assets available for yourself should you require them at that age. Or, when the time comes you move to a state where whatever aid is available to you (SS, SSI, whatever) brings more bang for your buck.
Or ENJOY the fact that your family is taking care of YOU now. The whole circle of life thing.
My mother retired to AZ. She had zero money saved, got a mobile home for $500 in 'decent' condition and had $1700/m
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Ezekiel is one of the architects of obamacare. Expect nothing inconsistent from him with the idea of getting the old (expensive) people to just go and die already; that's the only way that obamacare can survive (and even that's a long shot).
His Life (Score:4, Interesting)
His choice. I for one intend to drink every bit of snake oil that I think will keep me alive a little longer, until such time that I decide I don’t want to live any more. George Carlin pretty much summed up my views on all this stuff with his "And don't be pulling any plugs on me either" bit.
Worried about tax dollars pointlessly keeping my mostly useless ass alive (yay for socialized medicine)... hell no. I’ve paid taxes most of my life, many of which have been wasted on stupid nonsense, they can waste a few on me.
I get it if people are in pain, or feel like they can no longer contribute anything, and sitting there watching TV all day just isn’t doing it for them. If you are tired of life, fine, I’m all for giving people the option. On the opposite end you’ve got my Grandfather who is well into his 80’s and just finished remodeling his bathroom, and my friend’s Grandmother who while physically is showing her age, can still hold her end of a conversation, enjoys spending time with people, plays cards, etc.
Only 5 years of retirement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Only 5 years of retirement (Score:5, Insightful)
Enjoy your life, don't wait for your retirement. I don't see an especially good chance of ever being able to retire. Plus there are a lot of things I want to do while I can comfortably walk for eight hours a day, see, hear and smell well, and take a hit or two.
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This guy is being pretty optimistic that not only will he even last to 75, but that he will be mostly functional at that point.
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Why does retirement have to equal boredom or not having people depend on you? There are loads of service organizations, charities, and other non-profits who are quite happy to have retirees volunteer. My parents have been retired about 10 years (now in their upper 70s) and get a lot of enjoyment out of volunteering.
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Quality, not quantity (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Quality, not quantity (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty much this.
The points he addresses have nothing to do with age and everything to do with "quality of life".
So, if we could, somehow, manage to prolong life *AND* maintain quality of life, great!
Otherwise, yes, growing decrepit, feeble-witted, etc and wishing for an end is something people have realized for a long, long time now.
Like the myth of Tithonus [wikipedia.org]
I propose the Extreme test. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Or for those who want to keep working and be productive:
If you are a liberal, do volunteer work saving lives in Ebola-infested areas or some other place with a humanitarian crisis in Africa or Middle East.
If you are a Republican, volunteer for an army tour of duty in Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria. Yes being old could be a problem. However those powered exoskeletons could make you strong.
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Shhhhh! (Score:2)
why assume that one or the other would not be willing or wanting to do the other you listed?
Shhhhh! Quit challenging his political stereotypes! People over 75 get cranky when you do that...
It really all depends (Score:2)
Solution: Exoskeleton (Score:2)
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But you can't know how long you will live. (Score:2)
Right... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because exercising, eating well and being mentally engaged don't help keep you healthy to an older age.
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Along this same line though is that since this guy is convinced 75 is his limit I bet his health starts falling off at 70 in order to make that come true. He has a good chance of convincing himself and becoming a self fullfilling prophesy.
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There's actually some decent research on that point. A surprising number of people die very close to the age they expect to, more than can be explained by genetics. The placebo effect is a powerful thing.
I'm convinced I'm immortal, so things might be interesting in forty or fifty years.
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The funny thing is mental exercise doesn't strengthen the brain. The brain is not a muscle; it doesn't become stronger with use.
People think I'm a genius. It took me forever to realize, of course, they're right. Of course I'm a genius. It all makes sense. I didn't put my brain on some kind of mind-treadmill to get this way; it just is.
Being a genius is all about technique. The brains of great memorizers like Dominic O'Brien or Ben Pridmore are exactly like the brains of the average human. The br
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From the summary:
"Emanuel says that Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible."
Omitting the fad stuff, exercise and eating well improve the length of time you will remain healthy. The quote makes it sound like taking care of yourself will just let you hang on by your fingernails for a little bi
Ageing can be seen as a treatable disease. (Score:3)
I don't think there are many dreams of futures without some form of life extension.
Some wax poetic and philosophic about how life extension is like the One Ring stretching out Bilbo and Gollum, but with a properly enlightened society with strong family ties multiple generations co-habiting could provide an awesome view of the past, living history, to help teach the next generation.
I see ageing as a currently inescapable fact of life. I also know there are 400 year old clams. I think we should attempt to treat ageing as a disease, who that each life is valuable and worth saving and cherish the time the elders spend with the young to bring a different (but sometimes wrong and thought provoking) perspective.
There was an episode of TNG (Half a Life) where people who got to a certain age killed themselves. I was strongly in favor of letting the scientist live, but the show used the family and social norms and mores to make this a hard show to call black and white on.
So let's think to do the opposite of Logan's Run. Lets dream big and not run to the grave like its a cradle.
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Identify what resources are limited and change the culture and work culture to use less of them.
Its hard to argue against longer lives when nearly everyone from age 21-62 drives a car to work to get printed fiat monopoly money to feed themselves in the age where nearly all the work is transitioning to knowledge can be done from home/telecommute/virtual teams.
Dream big, its OK. Maybe if life was possibly longer people would take more time making big decisions and the rat race would slow down. I think there w
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Global warming was caused by a simple thing: too damned many people consuming energy on this rock, and it gets worse every year.
I thought the cause was our unwillingness to reengineer the orbit of Earth to be a teensy bit further out. IT's not like we aren't going to have to do that anyway, as soon as the solar expansion phase starts in a bit...
So much for retirement... (Score:2)
Speak for yourself, Mr. Emanuel (Score:4, Insightful)
You lost me when you assigned an arbitrary number as your cutoff rather than defining the cutoff on reasonably definable measures of physical and mental health. I exercise, eat healthy, avoid smoking and drugs etc. because these activities provide *measurable* benefits to my health based on measurements made by my doctor. Not to mention that I feel better.
Does the fact that I do things that measurably improve my health and prolong my life as long as possible mean I am "obsessed"? Does "I don't smoke, overeat, take drugs or engage in dangerous life-threatening activities (extreme sports, for example)" mean I am obsessed? I find it completely rational, and my insurance company sure loves it because I'm a low risk according to their actuarial tables. Because science.
If I take your advice, I should just sit around and passively wait to die after reaching a certain age rather than doing things that measurably increase my ability to be "vibrant and engaged". Sorry, but no thanks. Save me a place when I get to the Pearly Gates - I might be a little late to the party. And when I get there, we're going to blow the roof off of that sucker.
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I have a wife who is a board member for the local hospice, so I get to accompany her to a lot of functions. Many of the board members are approaching or have passed the age of 70 and still seem to be going strong. Note I said "board members" - those who are managing the entire affair (quite effectively from what I can gather), not those in need of care. Your friend may have experienced some selection bias because of his work. That doesn't mean his observations apply to everyone. In fact I'm sure they d
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Your friend is suffering from selection bias. A hospice is hardly a representative sample.
Bah (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate fatalism. My goal is to live forever. I'll go out kicking and screaming every bionic body part I can get.
Watch this: https://www.ted.com/talks/aubr... [ted.com]
You can all die if you want, leave me out of it.
Screw this viewpoint (Score:2)
We have isolated proteins that regenerate heart tissue, we know some of the proteins we need to make to clean up the plaque that causes alzheimers and we ever have cures for many other diseases. The biggest problem we have is one of production since some of these proteins are just very hard to make. I have made some advances in the field that will save a few tens of thousands of people ever year right now and I am starting more advanced education to help save millions.
I don't like the idea of living with a
I understand, but FTS (Score:3)
On the other hand, 75 is an arbitrary number. I'm 53, and will match wits with any of you. Both sides of my family have had folks live past 100, the most noteworthy being the oldest living graduate of the US Military academy. I will tell you that in his last days, he enjoyed playing poker one night of the week, drinking bourbon and branch, and hosting a weekly bridge game, all for gentlemen's stakes. I would not EVER have put money on the table and played against him, as he was sharp as a tack until the day that he died.
He, and the other members of his generation, lived to their 90s and beyond without the benefits of our modern understanding of health.
I fully expect, and am planning to enjoy my 100s.
75? Pfthhh!
-Red
Not Everyone is Successful (Score:2)
Not everyone is a director level excutive at a major organization. For a huge chunk of the population, feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic is basically their entire life. If that life isn't worth living, then probably most lives aren't worth living.
Re: (Score:3)
What makes you think I don't consider myself one of the "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" already?
American Issue (Score:2)
The good doctor was born in 1957 (Score:2)
A friend of mine in his 80's (Score:2)
http://oldrunningfox.blogspot.... [blogspot.co.uk]
enough said.
Re: (Score:2)
Just so.
I'm hoping to be him in 30 years....
So misguided (Score:2)
Ask him about his opinion when he is 74 (Score:2)
We look with pity at the elderly.
It is because when we are a kid and are traumatized by the fact that we will die.
We get older, we get gray hair, then we will die.
As a kid when we get that idea it puts us into shock and really scares us. While we learn to deal with it, the initial fear is still there.
Wanting to die young seems more comforting as you won't see it coming.
The worst part (Score:2)
The worst part about super long lifetimes will be the old thinking that comes along with it. When old people die, it makes way for new people and new thinking. Imagine some of the cronies in public office living to 150 years old.
By 75 does he mean 750? (Score:2)
I feel kind of frustrated when I see humans say things like "75 is a pretty good age to go". Really? Why not 60? Or 50? Or 40? We shouldn't be aiming to die when at some arbitrary count of how many times the earth has spun around the sun. We should be aiming to make life worth living for people at any age, and we should be aiming to eliminate this pointless "aging" business entirely.
My great grandmother is 104. She plays board games with her friends, takes walks with them, and is a sharp-witted lady (pretty
Why put a date on it? That's just dumb (Score:2)
If I'm 90 and still with it mentally and physically, as I certainly would *like* to be, please don't kill me.
On the other hand, if I get into a terrible car crash tomorrow on the way to work, despite being quite young, if I'm in severe pain, unlikely to ever not be in severe pain, and basically crippled to the point where I can't do anything, please do kill me.
I don't see where age (*directly*) has anything to do with it. Obviously the chances of your life sucking too badly for one reason or another go up w
Brain in a jar! (Score:2)
Jimmy Said it well (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Bruce Cockburn (Jimmy covered it).
He won't last that long. (Score:2)
I've already selected the sword I will use to separate his head from his body.
There can be only one
False Premise (Score:3)
"It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic."
For example: See the cast of the Expendables.
Emanuel says that Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible.
I believe this assertion to be false. Doing mental puzzles will not make you live longer, and exercise mostly prevents causes of death like falling or having a heart attack.
People don't do these things to live longer... they do these things to live better. So that, when they are 75, they won't be... how did the OP put it? "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic"
My grandfater was still running his store in his 70s. My grandmother was daycare to several of her great-grandkids. One of my martial arts instructors is in his 80s (and I would lose a fight with him). The premise is BS, and the "75" number is arbitrary. Further: it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he isn't exercising, if he isn't eating well, if he isn't keeping his mind active, he is more likely to be "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic".
Health is cheaper, less painful. (Score:3)
The reason for the diets, supplements and exercise aren't to extend life, but to enhance life's quality.
You can be 75 and a cripple, in pain and bankrupted by health care costs or...
You can be be 75, run marathons, be fairly pain free and pay relatively little for health care.
I know people in both situations. To some degree, it's your choice.
Re: (Score:2)
Logan's Run.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00... [imdb.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I know a man who is 44, weighs I'm sure over 350 lbs, and spends all his time on his couch eating junk food and watching TV. He struggles to walk across a boxbox store without tiring.
I'm 45 and weigh 350 pounds. I eat a low-carb diet, haven't watched TV in 20 years and don't even own a couch. I know younger, skinner people who can't keep up with me when I'm on a power walk. Age and weight is irrelevant, it's all about motivation to live.
Re: (Score:2)
The idea of a very gradual decline, such that finally losing one's grandfather comes when one's opinion of that grandfather is at least somewhat "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" is a comfort. It makes the loss easier, understandable, and acceptable.
Think about what you just said from the perspective of the person who has to live out those years.
Do you think they all don't know they are "feeble, ineffectual, and pathetic"? Do you think they enjoy that feeling? How many years should they have to live wher
Re:Why put a number on it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep. A much better argument would be to encourage people to have clear expectations for old age, and to make options to check out much easier. I would welcome the ability to choose my exit day while I still have the faculties to do so. The US's lousy options are deplorable. Old folks have few options in most states to pull their own plug when they determine the time is right.
In my Grandmother's case she knew it was time a few weeks before she died, but ended up in a lot of misery and humiliating circumstances for her final days due to a lack of legal options. Little has made me angrier at the religious set than listening to my grandmother beg God to let he die, and there being no legal avenue for any of her family to grant that wish thanks to those selfish bastards keeping euthanasia illegal.